New unit?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Salute everyone!

Recently I came across this Bk mod official FB post:-
https://www.facebook.com/CompanyOfHeroe ... =3&theater


And I would like to express my thoughts regarding this matter...
First of all, nice idea. It also compensates with the 5 seconds delay which were applied for all gliders on the last patch... And I kinda expected it to be exactly that way. As it sounded quite weird that Commandos didn't have any units which are able to use evasive maneuvers, when historically their role was partly focused at this aspect.

From what I understand after reading this post, is the fact that this new Marine Commando squad won't have Commando smoke ability, but crawl ability in return as well as passive camo (both by default) However, they also won't have Gammon bombs, but normal grenades on the other hand.

This unit won't be build-able anywhere, not in HQs nor any Gliders.. as they would just spawn with the Commando glider.
Which means that you can only have 1 at a time.. unless you destroy your Commando glider and order a new one at a price of 525 MP, but Sten Commandos the other way around can be deployed at a cheaper cost from the Commando glider, which is 450 MP as usual.


So, I am all fine with this change! It sounds really interesting too.

BUT...
>>> I am deeply concerned about this unit in late game <<<
in particular; I am talking about PanzerShrecks in comparison with Bazookas, PIATs, and Recoilless Rifles.

Shrecks can't be used from crawl position for some reason, yet... All other handheld AT weapons can be used, why??!!
I think this is actually unfair atm, perhaps it used to be fine in the past when handheld AT weapons didn't have any aim time.. and when infiltration Rangers couldn't crawl. But now we also have this new Marine Commando squad, which would be able to pick up as many Zookas, PIATs as well as Recoilles Rifles from the ground.. and crawl with them across the map too!!!

Therefore I think there is no sense anymore that PanzerShrecks would keep disabling the crawl ability at all... I would say now Shrecks have to be normally usable from crawl position as well, at least in order to maintain a unified game principle that applies on all handheld AT weapons without any exceptions.

That's all so far.

[sgtToni95]

How does bazooka work when they crawl? Does the handler stand up, get revealed and shoot after aiming for 2 seconds? Does it shoot while still hidden?

I agree all AT handheld weapons should behave the same way when used from crawling mode, but not sure how want them to work.

About new unit i like this idea, making new skins for units and the work on it is very appreciated, tho i would have maybe just given S.A.S the crawl ability.

I've always been reading they're not meant to be used like rambos, but instead more like saboteurs, to try destroying points, plant traps and demo charges. Now this marine commandos squad, with its crawl ability, will quite surely be a safer/cheaper way to execute theese tasks (and the possibility to even set up radios for triangulation is almost too much, don't touch, i love it ).

About combat purpose, as it's always been said, SAS don't come very early, and even going straight for their unlock gives you a slightly above average combat unit (without upgrades), with a high MP reinforcement cost and initial price, together with a huge delay on airstrikes unlocks.
Making lee-enfield commandos with captain and going for inf upgrades unlocks is, as far as i experienced, way more effective and cheaper for combat.
Even the fact they're the only brit unit that comes equipped with bazookas is, in my opinion, not that much of an advantage now that PIATs behave very decently against armoured units (and again in a cheaper way).

I will try to find a way to use SAS, even in early game, before the new patch is released, but, unlike before the 210mm rockets with increased ammo price, i'm really afraid SAS won't ever be seen again on the field (i hope to be so wrong on this, but i really can't remember even the last time i've seen them deployed).

[Krieger Blitzer]

How does bazooka work when they crawl? Does the handler stand up, get revealed and shoot after aiming for 2 seconds?

Yes, exactly... Just same as how infiltration Rangers do it currently!
StormTroops can do it too when they pick up Bazookas, PIATs or RLs.
But no one can do it with Shrecks.. the crawl ability would be eventually disabled once you pick up or upgrade any Shrecks.

I always believed it's not a big deal, but after i see this new Marine Commando squad.. then I think Shrecks should no longer disable the possibility to use evasive maneuvers anymore; just like all other handheld AT weapons.
Because this Marine Commando squad will be able to pick up as much as 4 or 5 Bazookas and crawl with them all at once...

[sgtToni95]

Because this Marine Commando squad will be able to pick up as much as 4 or 5 Bazookas and crawl with them all at once...

Not sure about this: standard sten commandos, after thompson upgrade, only have 1 free weapon slot. I agree they'd bee too much with 4-5 zooks, but i think they kept the same slot configuration.

P.S.: i made a long editing on my previous post, hope you'll give it a look.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Not sure about this: standard sten commandos, after thompson upgrade, only have 1 free weapon slot.

Sten Commandos can upgrade x3 Thompsons for 35 ammo... And can still grab up to 3 upgraded Bazooka versions, check the following picture:-

x3 Thompson + 3 upgraded Zookas

The new Marine Commando squad will have only 2 Thompsons, which means they would be able to grab 4 Bazookas and not just three!
They will also crawl with them, which is too much indeed.

So ya, I agree with everything you said.. I find this change pretty good too.
But in this case; Shrecks have to be no longer disabling the crawl ability as a result... Just in order to maintain the game principle.. all handheld AT weapons should behave the same like you already said, and Shrecks are no exception.

[Panzerblitz1]

So yes, the Royal Marine Commandos are joining Blitzkrieg mod

[MarKr]

Aaaand here we go again...same arguments for bazooka and crawl as with Infiltration rangers and you would hear the same counter arguments from me again here - Storms are different unit, meant for different purposes, have better weapons, more HP etc. etc.

Even IF you were able to equip them with 3 zooks, you will be left with 2 Thompsons and 1 Sten, easy target for pretty much any Axis unit...anyway...they will crawl "across the map" which makes you babysit them the whole time because if you don't they just crawl right into some infantry-shredding unit and they die, so this babysitting makes you unable to micro anything else. Once you are finished with "crawling across the map" what will you do? (with luck) destroy one unit and hit "Retreat" button...I mean "destroy one unit in case that opponent doesn't have somewhere on the path a stealth-detecting unit such as Spotter or even Motorbike (which has almost double spotting radius of Schwimwagen)"...that is not very effective way to play, investing all the micro to kill one unit, possibly losing the commandos on the retreat.

You described very similar scenarios when we announced crawl for infiltration rangers...now tell me honestly how often do you encounter any of those scenarios in the game? Did they really become such a gamebreaking element in the game?

About new unit i like this idea, making new skins for units and the work on it is very appreciated, tho i would have maybe just given S.A.S the crawl ability.

We came with this solution as a reaction to what people told us here - that dropping the glider directly on enemy is needed because it spawns Sten commandos and they seldom get close to use their weapons even with sprint. So you drop glider and they get spawned diretctly at their optimal fighting range. Now you can drop the glider a bit away, use crawl to clear path and have some chance to survive unlike with the current "suicidal glider drop"

Also SAS cannot build triangulators because you can drop them anywhere. Marine Commandos come with glider, glider can only be sent into visible area (so at least Recon plane is needed) and then they still need to get to the position where you want the radio and build it which will be easier with crawl but also slow to get to the position, can be detected on the way etc. etc.

Anyway as said on the facebook page - the unit can be tuned based on feedback from players

[Krieger Blitzer]

You described very similar scenarios when we announced crawl for infiltration rangers...now tell me honestly how often do you encounter any of those scenarios in the game? Did they really become such a gamebreaking element in the game?

It's not the same argument, I was kinda "OK" with it when you announced crawl ability for infiltration Rangers.
Since that their load-out is always restricted and they have only 1 Bazooka.

But now we have a load-out free squad. This new Marine Commando squad can grab whatever they want.. and crawling with 6 Recoilles Rifle, 4 PIATs or 4 upgraded Bazookas doesn't seem fair when Storms are unable to crawl with just 1 Shreck!!!

Aaaand here we go again...same arguments for bazooka and crawl as with Infiltration rangers and you would hear the same counter arguments from me again here - Storms are different unit, meant for different purposes, have better weapons, more HP etc. etc.

However, I am not here to talk about Storms, infiltration Rangers or Marine Commandos in the first place... As I am here addressing the handheld AT weapons themselves, in particular.
ALL handheld AT weapons are meant to behave the same way, or am I wrong?? Then why Shrecks are ought to disable the crawl ability but other handheld AT weapons never disable it on the other hand??!!

Even IF you were able to equip them with 3 zooks, you will be left with 2 Thompsons and 1 Sten, easy target for pretty much any Axis unit...anyway...they will crawl "across the map" which makes you babysit them the whole time because if you don't they just crawl right into some infantry-shredding unit and they die, so this babysitting makes you unable to micro anything else. Once you are finished with "crawling across the map" what will you do? (with luck) destroy one unit and hit "Retreat" button...I mean "destroy one unit in case that opponent doesn't have somewhere on the path a stealth-detecting unit such as Spotter or even Motorbike (which has almost double spotting radius of Schwimwagen)"...that is not very effective way to play, investing all the micro to kill one unit, possibly losing the commandos on the retreat.

I didn't argue about its effectiveness though... I am here only to address a very simple matter.

Shrecks, Bazookas, PIATs, RLs are all handheld AT weapons.. right? Then - again - why are Shrecks supposed to act differently??!!

Look, you don't have to answer. As I believe there is actually no logical response that would ever justify such a thing... So I would just like to repeat it again if you don't mind.
I would just say that Shrecks now need to behave same as all other handheld AT weapons. If all other handheld AT weapons don't disable the crawl ability, then Shrecks shouldn't be disabling it either.. as plain simple as that.

Thanks for reading...

[JimQwilleran]

Bazooka weights 5 kg and has 1,3 meters of length, shreck 11 kg and 1,6 meter legth. Also shreck has a big square metal plate that makes the weapon much bigger and heavier. Bazooka rocket weights 1,5 kg, shreck rocket around 3 kg.
Just saying. A german soldier has to carry almost x2 bigger weight.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Even if these information were correct, it's still not a good justification... But if we put it this way.. then I could also say that I have seen real ww2 footage of German soldiers crawling on the ground normally with their Shrecks equipped on their back.

There is absolutely nothing that would justify how Shrecks disable the crawl ability but other handheld AT weapons don't; keeping in mind now that the Marine Commando squad will be able to crawl with 4 upgraded Bazookas or more, not to mention that upgraded Bazookas recently received more accuracy and less scatter. While at the end of the day... If Shrecks were ever allowed to be used when crawling.. then it's just 1 Shreck or maximum 2 after all.
Which doesn't really make much difference.. however, i am just being legit here...

Shrecks shouldn't disable the crawl ability as long as other handheld AT weapons don't disable it! Just to maintain the game principle on all handheld AT weapons.. they all should behave the same.

[Panzerblitz1]

Again, you judge before even touched the game... how many times you came back from your fist thoughts when playing new implementations? I don't want to go into real stuff, but you could crawl with a bazooka (i personally did it several times), but you could't crawl with a panzerschreks, too heavy, to bulky, historically speaking of course, shrecks units will stay as they are.

[MarKr]

Hmmm...

I am deeply concerned about this unit in late game
in particular; I am talking about PanzerShrecks in comparison with Bazookas, PIATs, and Recoilless Rifles.

Shrecks can't be used from crawl position for some reason, yet... All other handheld AT weapons can be used, why??!!

Yes, exactly... Just same as how infiltration Rangers do it currently!
StormTroops can do it too when they pick up Bazookas, PIATs or RLs.
But no one can do it with Shrecks.. the crawl ability would be eventually disabled once you pick up or upgrade any Shrecks.

But now we have a load-out free squad. This new Marine Commando squad can grab whatever they want.. and crawling with 6 Recoilles Rifle, 4 PIATs or 4 upgraded Bazookas doesn't seem fair when Storms are unable to crawl with just 1 Shreck!!!

As I am here addressing the handheld AT weapons themselves, in particular.
ALL handheld AT weapons are meant to behave the same way, or am I wrong?? Then why Shrecks are ought to disable the crawl ability but other handheld AT weapons never disable it on the other hand??!!

Shrecks, Bazookas, PIATs, RLs are all handheld AT weapons.. right? Then - again - why are Shrecks supposed to act differently??!!

Shrecks shouldn't disable the crawl ability as long as other handheld AT weapons don't disable it! Just to maintain the game principle on all handheld AT weapons.. they all should behave the same.

OK, this worked last time so I will use this argument again and hopefully save some time...

In your head is this formula: "storms with Schreck cannot crawl = no unit with handheld AT can crawl" this way of thinking is wrong in this case because it doesn't apply in the mod in general.
Rifles with one BAR can use suppress button BUT 101st need two BARs to use that. Most engineer units need upgrade to use demo charges but there is iirc some special squad which does not need upgrade to use demo charge. Vehicles with HE mode need to purchase upgrade to use the mode - Cromwells and 37mm WM Halftrack do not need that. That is just from top of my head I would surely find more examples.

What other examples can we add? Better weapons for infantry, in general, need to be bought via upgrades, Reg5 and Gebirgs come with best weapons in the game as default. All "multipurpose" mines cost the same in the game, but CW Hawkins is cheaper. All factions have static bases but CW hase mobile base. All factions (not counting doctrines) have one infantry commanding unit, CW has LT and Captain and on top of that CW can have 3 LTs at the same time...

[Krieger Blitzer]

Again, you judge before even touched the game... how many times you came back from your fist thoughts when playing new implementations? I don't want to go into real stuff, but you could crawl with a bazooka (i personally did it several times), but you could't crawl with a panzerschreks, too heavy, to bulky, historically speaking of course, shrecks units will stay as they are.

Too heavy, too bulky... Are you talking about a Shreck or a massive 150mm Hummel gun? X_X
Historically speaking.. are you sure soldiers can't crawl with 11 kg weapon?? Even my little sister is heavier than that!!

You still didn't provide any logical explanation to the question though; why would Shrecks disable crawl ability but Zookas, PIATs, and RLs wouldn't?!
Something isn't right here, but anyways.. do what u think fits.

[MarKr]

You still didn't provide any logical explanation to the question though; why would Shrecks disable crawl ability but Zookas, PIATs, and RLs wouldn't?!
Something isn't right here, but anyways.. do what u think fits.

And you still haven't provided any logical explanation to the question - why all these "exceptions" don't bother you?
- Rifles with one BAR can use suppress button BUT 101st need two BARs to use that
- Most engineer units need upgrade to use demo charges but there is iirc some special squad which does not need upgrade to use demo charge
- Vehicles with HE mode need to purchase upgrade to use the mode - Cromwells and 37mm WM Halftrack do not need that
- Better weapons for infantry, in general, need to be bought via upgrades, Reg5 and Gebirgs come with best weapons in the game as default
- All "multipurpose" mines cost the same in the game, but CW Hawkins is cheaper
- All factions have static bases but CW hase mobile base
- All factions (not counting doctrines) have one infantry commanding unit, CW has LT and Captain and on top of that CW can have 3 LTs at the same time
But you only have some very strong problem with the fact (also an exception) that Storms with Scherck cannot crawl while other units with AT can crawl?

[Krieger Blitzer]

And you still haven't provided any logical explanation to the question - why all these "exceptions" don't bother you?

I do completely understand that not everything is meant to work the same.. and I have even used this argument myself several times before... So I am more than aware about it.
And I totally realize that there are always some differences... But the case here is quite different.

But you only have some very strong problem with the fact (also an exception) that Storms with Scherck cannot crawl while other units with AT can crawl?

Because my problem isn't just StormTroops... But even when you accidentally grab a Shreck with Marine Commandos, they wouldn't be able to crawl anymore.. so I am here talking about the handheld AT weapon itself, not the units.

You say that StormTroops have different purpose than infiltration Rangers or Marine Commandos, therefore they aren't supposed to crawl with a handheld AT weapon... Right? Well, take this question;
Why are Storms allowed to crawl with a Bazooka, a PIAT or RL when they pick it up from the ground??!!
See?? They only can't crawl exclusively with the Shreck.

The other way around...
infiltration Rangers and Marine Commandos are allowed to crawl with handheld AT weapons.. but not with Shrecks!!!
Maaan, just why this mess???!!!
Why don't you just unify the whole thing, with a solid principle that applies to everyone?!

Regardless though, i am not mad or angry about it at all. But I just wish if you got my point... And btw Panzerblitz1, I am really not judging the game balance here.. as I am only concerned about this particular matter.

[MarKr]

OK, we'll unify it...Storms will be not able to crawl with any AT while Infiltration Rangers and Marine Commandos will be able to crawl with any AT.

[Krieger Blitzer]

OMG dude... Seriously!! Lmao

[JimQwilleran]

I want to ask a bit off-topic question. How come Tiger get's this "alpha" patch version even before you devs even say a word about it on forum? That's a bit unfair to others, don't you think? You give the possibility to test, comment and lobby for changes to only one of the players. If Tiger possibly hadn't made this topic and instead of that talked with you in private, we wouldn't be a part of discussion at all. Does that makes him some kind of half-tester half-dev? Shouldn't everybody have the same right and possibility to comment on beta patch versions?

No matter how active and supportive he is, unless he is a member of the staff, he shouldn't be treated in a special way imho. Or if it is otherwise, please state it clearly and officially.

I know that this change has been already announced on facebook. But facebook page has 100 people following. This forum is much bigger. And the person that actually "announced" the new unit to people wasn't one of the devs. It was Tiger. That really makes me question things, you know?

[Krieger Blitzer]

I want to ask a bit off-topic question. How come Tiger get's this "alpha" patch version even before you devs even say a word about it on forum? That's a bit unfair to others, don't you think? You give the possibility to test, comment and lobby for changes to only one of the players. If Tiger possibly hadn't made this topic and instead of that talked with you in private, we wouldn't be a part of discussion at all. Does that makes him some kind of half-tester half-dev? Shouldn't everybody have the same right and possibility to comment on beta patch versions?

No matter how active and supportive he is, unless he is a member of the staff, he shouldn't be treated in a special way imho. Or if it is otherwise, please state it clearly and officially.

I know that this change has been already announced on facebook. But facebook page has 100 people following. This forum is much bigger. And the person that actually "announced" the new unit to people wasn't one of the devs. It was Tiger. That really makes me question things, you know?

Jealous?

I don't know where exactly do you want to go with this. But well, I will respond anyway...
First... I haven't had any alpha version. When I suspected that the new Commando unit will be able to crawl, believe it or not.. but this was a pure expectation from my side; which was based on absolutely no evidence. And it just turned out to be true!
More like a coincidence.

Secondly, yes.. for sure they treat me so differently and also in such a very special way... Even to the point that I was even temporarily banned for 1 month before!

But for real now, what's unfair here??!! You participate.. and I do. Just like everybody else!
Your suggestions once get denied after some discussion, but other times get approved.. just like my suggestions.

However, let's just figuratively say that I do have some privilege here (which I really don't btw) but let's say that I do. Wouldn't I probably deserve it for being the most active contributor of all time after all?

[JimQwilleran]

Jealous?

oh god

[Krieger Blitzer]

But just to keep it clear and short.. I don't have any privileges here!
And it's nothing that I would even seek to have, as I just contribute as actively as I could...

Even though it's perhaps quite funny if you would know that in fact... I was given some true privileges on other mods for CoH2, where I didn't even exceed a total of 40 posts on their forums! This is where I might be a half-dev of some sort, even though I didn't want to.

However; we can speak further regarding this mater privately with the devs later.. as i would say you have actually triggered a very interesting subject. But this topic isn't the correct place...

[Panzerblitz1]

There is no Alpha, there is no favor.

[sgtToni95]

We came with this solution as a reaction to what people told us here - that dropping the glider directly on enemy is needed because it spawns Sten commandos and they seldom get close to use their weapons even with sprint.

What do you think of what i suggested in my last post in this topic viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1932 ? I feel like it's been ignored, while I thought there was some logic in what i wrote.
My purpose was to make the low fighting capabilities of commandos tier up faster, so to make them more effective (which even means easier to bring in an effective combat range), to give SAS a chance to be anyhow more useful by coming earlier, and to give 95mm cromwell, which does not really seem "at home" in this doctrine, a "choice making" price (with CP cost).
Even giving SAS the crawl ability, still without letting them plant the radio, would have seemed me a fair solution, allowing them to work more safely once dropped behind the enemy lines (or even behind your own lines).
You say SAS advantage is they can drop anywhere on the field, but doing so without sight might make you lose 650 MP on a non rambo unit wich a settled scout car or a lot of other units can almost shred while they're not upgraded, and losing them while they're running between all enemy units during retreat is not so unlikely.

I know a new unit always has its charm, but i saw you devs suggesting many times to use "forgotten" units instead of asking for new ones, so may i ask you what made you chose the "new unit" way over the "reworking" one?

[Krieger Blitzer]

If they came up with the solution of giving SAS the crawl ability instead of adding Marine Commandos.. then we would end up having the same issue anyway of which we are discussing here after all... Again, 1 champion unit crawling with a massive number of handheld AT weapons being equipped!
But actually, I don't even have any problems with that.. it's fine with me if they would crawl with 4 Bazookas or whatever.
Nonetheless; then just why can't they do it with a Shreck too? Or let's say; why can't Storms do it?!
Keeping in mind that Shrecks even occupy more slots than Zookas.

So I still don't get it though...
Storms crawl with 1 Shreck = Can't, cuz it's not intended.
Storms crawl with 3 Bazooka, 4 RLs, or 3 PIATs = Can, cuz it's intended!

infiltration Rangers\Marine Commandos crawl with 4 Bazookas = Can, cuz it's intented.
infiltration Rangers\Marine Commandos crawl with 1 Shreck = Can't, cuz it's not intented!

Which makes me... Really WONDERS!!!

[sgtToni95]

Tiger you've already been answered to this many times, and my solution was not giving crawl to sas, my solution was in the linked post.