Rangers evasive maneuvers.

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Tiger1996
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Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Mar 2017, 11:15

So, I've heard that the infiltration Ranger squad would be able to crawl on the next patch... While I think it's a nice idea which leads to a good kind of variation too, yet.. I have some reservations upon this matter.

Firstly... How are they going to crawl with a Bazooka? Storms obviously can't crawl with a PanzerShreck.. even though that there is a trick which allows the possibility to crawl with the PanzerShreck but only for a once. Which is to first activate the crawling ability then to subsequently order for upgrading the PanzerShreck... This way the PanzerShreck would be equipped while the squad is already crawling. But once they stand up, they won't be able to crawl again for sure. And the same could be done with the flamethrower upgrade of the Demo Storm squad, which is totally fine after all.

Regardless however, i am here to talk about the Bazooka... Currently it's not one of those weapons that disables the crawling ability.. even when Storms pick it up from the ground, they would be still able to activate the crawling ability as it seems!

But here the question is... Would this be still fair after allowing the infiltration Rangers to crawl??!!

Secondly, if we agree that the Bazooka would disable the crawl ability... Then the evasive maneuvers ability would be disabled for the infiltration Rangers squad forever this way!! Unless the default squad load-out is changed.


Thirdly, I wonder if the possibility to crawl would be available by default for the infiltration Rangers.. or only after the veterancy unlock? Just like Storms?!

That's all my thoughts considering this subject for now :)

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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby MarKr » 21 Mar 2017, 12:04

Tiger1996 wrote:Firstly... How are they...
Secondly, if we agree that the Bazooka ...
Thirdly, I wonder if the possibility to crawl ...

Forum guidelines:
Nieles wrote:2.1 Don't post in an obnoxious manner.
This includes abusing the colour and size tags...
:lol:
Anyway:
The crawl on Storms was postponed because it is available on "normal", Demo, Dekungs and Command Storm units where normal storms are limited to 3 (iirc), Demo and command to one and dekungs also to some number. That means you could potentially camo small army and move them relatively freely around the map while Infiltration rangers are limited to 2. Also Storms are better in many ways - you can select their loadout so you can have them as mid-long range support squad (with LMG upgrade), short range attack group (with MP44) or AT squad with schreck AND they have more basic HP per soldier. Infiltration rangers have less HP, have fixed loadout (5x Thompson + 1 zooka) so you cannot adjust them to have different role in the squad. Also Infantry doctrine is probably the most micro-heavy doctrine and when you try to sneak somewhere your Infiltration rangers, you cannot micro the rest of your army.

And as we always said - not everything is meant to be the same ;)

So they will have crawl by default and will be able to crawl with Bazooka.
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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Mar 2017, 12:30

MarKr wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:Firstly... How are they...
Secondly, if we agree that the Bazooka ...
Thirdly, I wonder if the possibility to crawl ...

Forum guidelines:
Nieles wrote:2.1 Don't post in an obnoxious manner.
This includes abusing the colour and size tags...
:lol:

Seriously? LMAO :D

MarKr wrote:Anyway:
The crawl on Storms was postponed because it is available on "normal", Demo, Dekungs and Command Storm units where normal storms are limited to 3 (iirc), Demo and command to one and dekungs also to some number. That means you could potentially camo small army and move them relatively freely around the map while Infiltration rangers are limited to 2. Also Storms are better in many ways - you can select their loadout so you can have them as mid-long range support squad (with LMG upgrade), short range attack group (with MP44) or AT squad with schreck AND they have more basic HP per soldier. Infiltration rangers have less HP, have fixed loadout (5x Thompson + 1 zooka) so you cannot adjust them to have different role in the squad. Also Infantry doctrine is probably the most micro-heavy doctrine and when you try to sneak somewhere your Infiltration rangers, you cannot micro the rest of your army.

And as we always said - not everything is meant to be the same ;)

So they will have crawl by default and will be able to crawl with Bazooka.

I suppose by "Dekungs" you actually mean the suppression squad? It's limited to only 1 at a time too, as far as I can remember.
But arguing which is better (the infiltration Rangers or the Storms) is absolutely controversial to be honest... Keeping in mind that infantry doctrine could still field unlimited number of Ranger squads, also later with cheaper cost.. of which are all also capable of ambushing behind cover after the veterancy unlock!

But here is the thing, why is the infiltration Ranger squad load-out is so restricted??? Why not giving some freedom for choosing what they are equipped with?!
I would say u either should modify the default load-out so they would be equipped with 6x Thompson SMGs but with the possibility of purchasing a Bazooka upgrade, therefore losing the capability to crawl...
OR to simply allow everyone to use evasive maneuvers then! So that PanzerShrecks and flamethrowers wouldn't disable the possibility to crawl anymore... Since I never actually understood why it has been made like this in the first place even!
Shrecks have aim time now, right? I mean; handheld AT weapons were nerfed already.
So, I can honestly see no logic reasons why Storms can't crawl with Shrecks as well...

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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby MarKr » 21 Mar 2017, 13:23

Tiger1996 wrote:I suppose by "Dekungs" you actually mean the suppression squad? It's limited to only 1 at a time too, as far as I can remember.
Yes, that is what I meant.
Tiger1996 wrote:But arguing which is better (the infiltration Rangers or the Storms) is absolutely controversial to be honest...
I am not arguing which is better because they are not the same units and have not the same role on the battlefield.
Tiger1996 wrote:Keeping in mind that infantry doctrine could still field unlimited number of Ranger squads, also later with cheaper cost.. of which are all also capable of ambushing behind cover after the veterancy unlock!
1) How many people have good enough micro skills to control "unlimited number of Rangers"? If you did that, you definitely don't have time to micro at the same time your Infiltration rangers in camo in enemy territory.
2) Normal Rangers get "ambush" ability in cover after unlock - and they cannot move in ambush. Storms have passive camo even without Unlock so they can do the same right when you get them and later also get Crawl + better weapons, more HP = Storms are still better.
Tiger1996 wrote:But here is the thing, why is the infiltration Ranger squad load-out is so restricted??? Why not giving some freedom for choosing what they are equipped with?!
Oh, I see...you mean to have the SAME options as Storms!
Tiger1996 wrote:I would say u either should modify the default load-out so they would be equipped with 6x Thompson SMGs but with the possibility of purchasing a Bazooka upgrade, therefore losing the capability to crawl...
Oh, I see to be even more SAME as Storms!
Tiger1996 wrote:OR to simply allow everyone to use evasive maneuvers then! So that PanzerShrecks and flamethrowers wouldn't disable the possibility to crawl anymore... Since I never actually understood why it has been made like this in the first place even!
Tiger1996 wrote:So, I can honestly see no logic reasons why Storms can't crawl with Shrecks as well...
Yes! So that they all have the SAME! But there is this little problem...
MarKr wrote:And as we always said - not everything is meant to be the same


You clearly want them to have the same options but Infantry and BK docs don't have the same options in general...BK can field heavy tanks and have cheaper medium tanks while Infantry can do what? Spamm infantry? Yes, we should definately give some heavy tanks to Infantry doc...you know to be the same...and Reg5 and Gebirgs come with weapons? I guess we should make 101st come with weapons too...because, you know...same. Actually every axis doc as at least one tank or TD which has either 75mm kwk42 (panther gun) pak43 88mm (KT, Nashorn, Elephant etc.) which are the strongest cannons in the game mounted on some heavily armored units while US have Pershing in one doctrine (other docs have the strongest gun 76mm) and CW has 17 pounder and strongest armor it is mounted on is Comet, but others have to make do with crappy Sherman armor. So maybe we should make some adjustments too for the sake of being same?

You just see potential problems (or these are not even "problems", it is "I don't like that it's different than something else" issue :D ) which are practically not there - same as it was with changes to 90mm guns where you objected how in theory this and that will be OP and this and that is unfair and bad and when you actually played with the changes you said they were cool. So maybe give it a try and we can adjust it later if there are some serious balance issues.
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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby Redgaarden » 21 Mar 2017, 15:54

The problem is not the bazzoka. A single bazzoka can't even kill a puma, The big problem is the satchel charge. I fear I will abuse these units alot since 100% the reason I ever got them ever was becasue they are the only infantry doctrine unit I know that has satchel charge (Combat engineers get demo not satchel) I was going to ask for a better solution to kill bunkers as infnatry doctrines and you guys are going to buff my current method already. So I thank you for the change.
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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 21 Mar 2017, 17:41

Markr said it all, one thing for sure Infantry doc top units will get what they should get to be a little bit much more a pain in the ass with abilities they should have from the start.
Infantry doc is micro intensive, but will receive what it deserve for its top units, about crawling with bazookas, they can and they will, you're scared about infiltration units? you can use a spotter.

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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Mar 2017, 18:18

Redgaarden wrote:A single bazzoka can't even kill a puma

It's not like a single Schreck is any better, it won't kill a Quad half-track either.. it survives with like 10% HP most of the time. Not to mention that in fact; the Quad would kill ur Axis troops faster than the Puma could kill ur Rangers at all...
================================================
I do completely understand that not everything is meant to be the same, otherwise the game would be boring as hell... But my point here is that this way there is obviously an advantage for one specific side upon the other! I could just accept the fact that infiltration Rangers would be able to crawl by default.. and that their load-out is restricted.
But the fact that the Storms can't crawl with the PanzerSchreck on the other hand is just.. beyond me to be honest!
It sounds unfair indeed.

But anyway; it's an interesting change after all, so ya.. let's just see how it plays out.

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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby Redgaarden » 21 Mar 2017, 18:41

I think the difference between a bazooka and a shreck is that a shreck can harm pretty much all and even the best tanks INF, AB, RAF, RE and RA can field while a bazooka can only harm mid tier tanks and everything SE has to offer.
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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby JimQwilleran » 21 Mar 2017, 18:42

Tiger1996 wrote:
But my point here is that this way there is obviously an advantage for one specific side upon the other! I could just accept the fact that infiltration
It sounds unfair indeed.


Pershing for Inf doc then.
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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Mar 2017, 18:47

@Red
Tiger1 isn't a mid tier tank! Bazookas can still harm it...
I would say that game-play wise, there isn't any difference between the Bazooka and the PanzerSchreck.. at all actually.

@Jim
Tiger1996 wrote:I do completely understand that not everything is meant to be the same

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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby MarKr » 21 Mar 2017, 18:52

Again - you point at something not being fair while you compare one unit available in one doc to one unit available in other doc. Why do you have no problem with the fact that only Axis have at least one vehicle with very strong gun in every doctrine while 4 out of 6 Allied docs miss such vehicle? This situation is "unfair" on much bigger scale than just one doctrine vs another doctrine. It is side-wide. The only difference is that the tanks have been like this for ages and people know how to play in this set up while Rangers will be new. But people will learn to play with that too.

Tiger1996 wrote:But the fact that the Storms can't crawl with the PanzerSchreck on the other hand is just.. beyond me to be honest!
MarKr wrote:I am not arguing which is better because they are not the same units and have not the same role on the battlefield.
Because Storms are combat units that are meant to go head on head with opponent and have a side option to crawl and thus set up ambush.
Infiltration rangers are ambush units that rely on stealth thanks to which they can get close and use their equipment which REQUIRES to be used at close range and have a side option to go head on head (though they are not very effective when used this way).

Do you see the difference or do I need to write it again? :D
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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Mar 2017, 19:00

I am not comparing 1 unit with another, neither 1 doctrine with another... Nor 1 faction with any other. Otherwise I would have complained about Blitz doc lacking arty compared to inf doc for example!
But my point here is very simple.. right now i am comparing a handheld AT weapon with another. Why is the Bazooka not disabling the possibility to crawl, whereas the PanzerSchreck does???!!! What kind of logic is this based on?
Don't tell me; "because the Schreck is better" because the difference isn't really huge, but even if.. the Schreck is already more expensive and can't be EVER purchased with just 45 ammo. Do you realize that inf doc Rangers could have upgraded Zookas with this price? Not complaining about this though.
I am just wondering... Why the Schrecks have to disable the crawl ability, but Zookas not???!!!

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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby MarKr » 21 Mar 2017, 19:17

Tiger1996 wrote:But my point here is very simple.. right now i am comparing a handheld AT weapon with another.
This sort of comparing would be comparing of accuracy, penetration, damage etc. But you say it yourself:
Tiger1996 wrote:Why is the Bazooka not disabling the possibility to crawl, whereas the PanzerSchreck does???!!! What kind of logic is this based on?
And since the only units that have handheld AT AND possibility to crawl at the same time are Storms and Infiltration rangers, you are comparing UNITS.
So for another time - Infiltration rangers are meant to work differently than Storms. Therefore Infiltration rangers can crawl with zooka and Storms cannot do the same with Schreck.

In your head is this formula: "storms with Schreck cannot crawl = no unit with handheld AT can crawl" this way of thinking is wrong in this case because it doesn't apply in the mod in general.
Rifles with one BAR can use suppress button BUT 101st need two BARs to use that. Most engineer units need upgrade to use demo charges but there is iirc some special squad which does not need upgrade to use demo charge. Vehicles with HE mode need to purchase upgrade to use the mode - Cromwells and 37mm WM Halftrack do not need that. That is just from top of my head I would surely find more examples.
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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Mar 2017, 19:25

In your head is this formula: "storms with Schreck cannot crawl = no unit with handheld AT can crawl" this way of thinking is wrong in this case because it doesn't apply in the mod in general.
Rifles with one BAR can use suppress button BUT 101st need two BARs to use that. Most engineer units need upgrade to use demo charges but there is iirc some special squad which does not need upgrade to use demo charge. Vehicles with HE mode need to purchase upgrade to use the mode - Cromwells and 37mm WM Halftrack do not need that. That is just from top of my head I would surely find more examples.

Well; I could probably consider this as a good answer, actually...
It's alright then.. really excited for the change like I previously said! ;)
But after all I just had to bring my thoughts up :)

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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby JimQwilleran » 21 Mar 2017, 21:05

I am still up for pershing in all allied docs! But this was made for balance reasons I guess :/
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Re: Rangers evasive maneuvers.

Postby mofetagalactica » 27 Mar 2017, 21:35

Inf doc is the worst doc ever thought the rangers are shit compared to WE and PE troops.
Even after getting the tree update for the rangers they still being shit and dying so easily if you want to use elite infantry just play as airbone doc they have better infantry better equiped and can reinforce it everywhere.
Infantry doc shouldnt even be called infantry it should be called like artillery & support doctrine.


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