Terror doc

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
Wh1tetiger
Posts: 28
Joined: 19 Dec 2016, 18:29

Re: Terror doc

Postby Wh1tetiger » 21 Dec 2016, 17:07

JimQwilleran wrote:
Wh1tetiger wrote:
JimQwilleran wrote:I agree with kwok, I don't find allies op at all. Just axis gameplay was shifted from "my op tiger and kch will roll over anything" to more like "I have to think before I act". I love that drift tbh.

But i not see you in PVP mode... let's play you are axis ))) And you will see what i mean....

Being so cocky here won't serve you. Almost anybody here is better than you. We have played a game already. U lost ;). (and raged btw)
Also I reported you for spamming.

It is quite possible. It all depends on who I'm playing. Pick a time and place. We will be allies. Taking into account the fact that we lost - most likely we were just Axis. And about the spam - but for God's sake. P. s: you Can ban me, I do not see the expediency to communicate with people who hear only themselves. Good luck to all. More to write something I'm not. Sit back and assume that everything is OK. You all know better, and criticism no one likes to perceive especially when this criticism in the case.

JimQwilleran
Posts: 1107
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Terror doc

Postby JimQwilleran » 21 Dec 2016, 17:09

Wh1tetiger wrote:It is quite possible. It all depends on who I'm playing. Pick a time and place. We will be allies. Taking into account the fact that we lost - most likely we were just Axis. And about the spam - but for God's sake. P. s: you Can ban me, I do not see the expediency to communicate with people who hear only themselves. Good luck to all. More to write something I'm not. Sit back and assume that everything is OK. You all know better, and criticism no one likes to perceive especially when this criticism in the case.

Pf, criticism is ok. But you behave like a mad priest on crusade. Spamming 8 posts in the row and challenging everyone for a duel lol. Chill out dude..

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 855
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Terror doc

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 21 Dec 2016, 17:09

Speaking about data, a while ago played called Wake made a study about players stats collecting data from almost all active players, it revealed the fact that allies have a way better winrate, so much about balance.

Maybe Kwok can provide this table.

Edit: here it is
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Edit 2: Ah, it got updated, stats used to be different there.
Last edited by Sukin-kot (SVT) on 21 Dec 2016, 17:12, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 2533
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Terror doc

Postby MarKr » 21 Dec 2016, 17:12

Wh1tetiger please, when you react to multiple people do so in one post. The EDIT button is here for a reason (and by the way spamming like this is against forum guidelines).

I do not see the expediency to communicate with people who hear only themselves. Good luck to all.
Ehm...five people telling you that you might be wrong and yet THEY only hear themselves...can you see the irony here?
Image

JimQwilleran
Posts: 1107
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Terror doc

Postby JimQwilleran » 21 Dec 2016, 17:13

Isn't it the same now xD? Win ratio for all factions. Touche xD..

But this sheet counts all wins from all versions of the mod, and even from vanilla.
It's hardly any proof imo.

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 855
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Terror doc

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 21 Dec 2016, 17:39

JimQwilleran wrote:Isn't it the same now xD? Win ratio for all factions xD. Touche xD

For me best proof is a current meta game, axis gameplay is very boring and dependant on a few key units.

JimQwilleran
Posts: 1107
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Terror doc

Postby JimQwilleran » 21 Dec 2016, 17:40

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
JimQwilleran wrote:Isn't it the same now xD? Win ratio for all factions xD. Touche xD

For me best proof is a current meta game, axis gameplay is very boring and dependant on a few key units.


For me it isn't. It's fun and that's the best proof for me too :roll: .

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 2533
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Terror doc

Postby MarKr » 21 Dec 2016, 19:04

For me best proof is a current meta game, axis gameplay is very boring and dependant on a few key units.
OK...what is your idea of fun Axis gameplay? And how would you solve the problem with dependency on few key units?
Image

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 855
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Terror doc

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 21 Dec 2016, 20:10

MarKr wrote:
For me best proof is a current meta game, axis gameplay is very boring and dependant on a few key units.
OK...what is your idea of fun Axis gameplay? And how would you solve the problem with dependency on few key units?


I wrote a big post regarding this in a tread about Beta. Axis need better power distribution among their docs and price drops for a lot of units ( especially PE ). All this points have been discussed for a thousand times already, like no more useless TH doc ( it should have tigers while BK doc only panthers ), no more overpriced luft rambos, some tweaking to BK doc ( Maultier for instance is a terrible unit, low damage, long barage time, expensive, slow, vulnerable, storm sappers can get there evasive manevures back, without it they are only sweat target for snipers )

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:So, my point here, do not give Sturmtiger to the doc which is already the most played one and essential, nobody wants to play only against terror all the time ( or as terror all the time ). Make it a reward unit in BK doc for Tiger Ace or for Stuh, this will be a way better decision for balance and gameplay. Axis will have at least another reliable doc, BK is not bad overall, but its done and blocked as soon as allied made a defence with emplacements and hidden units like snipers and tank hunters, the doc which is supposed to be a breakthrough one arguably is worse in that purpose than SE or Def, since you get simply blocked by a couple of units, Sturmtiger will fit to idea of this doc perfectly as well.

Regarding other docs I already said everything before, PE needs a price drops for a lot of stuff: stormgrenadiers should be 375 MP, their target type is worse than Wh grenadiers once, they need shitload of ammo to become effective and they dont have AT ), Hetzer and PZ4 unlock should be independent, Puma with Pak 40 should cost 300 MP and 30 Fuel, HE Panzer 440 MP and 40 Fuel, Panzerwefer is much worse than 95mm Churchill or cromwell but costs more, PE Tank factory is overpriced as hell, the best unit they can get there is a crappy luft Panther but it costs 550 mp and 60 fuel ( for what?), luft flaks should be cheaper as well, nobody ever builds them, naked once a one shot for 95mm arty or Tulips, emplaced ones cost a fortune but useless against any player who have basic logic skills ( nobody will rush a flak, in 99% games it may kill someone only with the very first shot, after it has been spotted everybody just avoids it untill it will be destoyed by arty, or you can try to repait it and loose another expensive squad ( at least 360 MP ) so in total you waste almost 1000 MP, the exact reason why nobody uses flaks as Luft. Scout cars also have to be much cheaper after all tech ups are complete, you spend 300 MP and 10 Fuel for upgrading each point when brits do it for free and 200 MP is nothing for USA with upgraded supply yard.

Paso95
Posts: 26
Joined: 28 Jul 2016, 09:19

Re: Terror doc

Postby Paso95 » 21 Dec 2016, 20:34

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
I wrote a big post regarding this in a tread about Beta. Axis need better power distribution among their docs and price drops for a lot of units ( especially PE ). All this points have been discussed for a thousand times already, like no more useless TH doc ( it should have tigers while BK doc only panthers ), no more overpriced luft rambos, some tweaking to BK doc ( Maultier for instance is a terrible unit, low damage, long barage time, expensive, slow, vulnerable, storm sappers can get there evasive manevures back, without it they are only sweat target for snipers )

I agree with sukin

User avatar
Tiger1996
Posts: 3795
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 15:53
Location: I'm from Egypt, but I live in Qatar.
Contact:

Re: Terror doc

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Dec 2016, 20:40

Yup, agreed as well. At least to the majority of the points...
And this is pretty much the same of what I said here;
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1548&start=25#p15364
And also here;
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1496&start=225#p15236

Devs don't have to consider all the points for sure.. but at least; just what seems to be the most crucial ones for now!
For example; Terror doc is not the correct place for the SturmTiger but in Blitz doc on the other hand.. as a reward to the Tiger Ace... Demo Storm squad need evasive maneuvers by default, etc.

User avatar
Leonida [525]
Posts: 138
Joined: 26 Jun 2016, 09:25

Re: Terror doc

Postby Leonida [525] » 21 Dec 2016, 20:44

Yep I also think these docs really need some tweaks in prices, moreover sukins suggestions seem to me fair and resonable

User avatar
Warhawks97
Posts: 3145
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Terror doc

Postby Warhawks97 » 21 Dec 2016, 21:12

As long as i can remember axis have always been based on core units. One reason i did play only BK doc is or was that it was the only doc that had a decent power distrubution with proper cost ratios that allowed aggressive gameplay even at risk of losing the one or other unit. Thats because the units cost mainly raged from 300-450 MP (stugs, volks, storms, mortar, 50mm pak, Tank IV´s, Ostwind, Puma). Only Panther was above these cost but for a good reason. Note pls that i never really used tigers there.

Terror has always been Grens (or kch), nebler/stuka, Panther. Since i can remember it was like that.

What was Luft about? Either 88 spam or rambos.

SE? Either inf focused with flame nades or Pure arty.....

And about PE (and which bothered me most over years) was that more or less 0 mistake tolerance. WH (and for me BK doc) was much more forgiveable. But PE never. And the Old TH doc was actually "Panther G doc".... When i played with mates the only job of the guy playing Th doc was to get Panther G´s asap.


But its all that cost ratio... And thats what i said over years. Some sort of "golden cost mark" would be to say: No inf cost more than 400 MP to build. And if its too strong for that cost make reinforce cost higher or nerf or buff enemie etc. But the replacment cost of units is what holds axis down on "very core units" to be used. Constructive smart playing is possible maybe with volks and puma or Bk doc (at least in the past). But aggressiveness by unit combination and some mistake tolerance was never really axis strenght which really made it boring to play.

And for both sides its annoying... Axis only see expensive units of which only a few can and must be used and which at the end die to a "click to kill ability) while allied see only "Invincible" Panthers and immortal grens/fallis that never fucking die to anything and always escape with 0,1 HP.....and a bunch of silly cheap pointless units.

A Handfull players are out there which play axis more or less like allis.... Volksgren spam (three triage centers help to maintain a mass of like 8 squads) with defensive doc def bonus and sandbags everywhere. Those screen and defend and harrass etc while some powerfull core counter units deal with some larger threats. But the majority is simply used to buy expensive and expecting to win almost automatically.

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 2533
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Terror doc

Postby MarKr » 23 Dec 2016, 01:22

(talking about ST)Make it a reward unit in BK doc for Tiger Ace or for Stuh, this will be a way better decision for balance and gameplay.
For example; Terror doc is not the correct place for the SturmTiger but in Blitz doc on the other hand..
OK, guys, Sturmtiger was added to the game only because we wanted to get rid of V1; that is the reason why it has the same damage output as V1 and that is the reason why it will not be given to Blitzkrieg or any other doctrine - it is basically the same as asking to give V1 to Blitz doc.
like no more useless TH doc
I don't think TH is useless...some time ago people said that if US goes Armor and PE takes TH then Armor player is pretty much stonewalled and cannot make a move with anything except for infantry so TH is simply counter doctrine to US Armor and CW RE. It is definitely more specialized than other Axis doctrines and requires a specific opponent doctrines (Armor or RE) to become more useful. I understand, Sukin, that you and some others might find the doctrine boring because you simply prefer different playstyle but it does not mean it is useless.
We also already said that lack of good arty is the negative side of BK doctrine because it is actually the only thing it lacks and we don't think that a doctrine with no real drawback is a good thing.

However there are changes coming for Axis units. Some of the weaker PIVs will receive price drops, the Stormtrooper demo squad will get the crawl ability without the vet unlock and we're discussing price drops on WH and PE Grenadiers - we agree that the prices require a very skillful gameplay on Axis side because loses are hard to replace. And we have't talked about this with others but I would support a price drop on PE tank factory too, it seems justified.
Image

User avatar
Tiger1996
Posts: 3795
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 15:53
Location: I'm from Egypt, but I live in Qatar.
Contact:

Re: Terror doc

Postby Tiger1996 » 23 Dec 2016, 01:30

OK, guys, Sturmtiger was added to the game only because we wanted to get rid of V1; that is the reason why it has the same damage output as V1 and that is the reason why it will not be given to Blitzkrieg or any other doctrine - it is basically the same as asking to give V1 to Blitz doc.

Hmm, I think the SturmTiger is quite different from V1.
But Ok...

However there are changes coming for Axis units. Some of the weaker PIVs will receive price drops, the Stormtrooper demo squad will get the crawl ability without the vet unlock and we're discussing price drops on WH and PE Grenadiers - we agree that the prices require a very skillful gameplay on Axis side because loses are hard to replace. And we have't talked about this with others but I would support a price drop on PE tank factory too, it seems justified.

Glad to hear this though! ;)

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 2533
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Terror doc

Postby MarKr » 23 Dec 2016, 01:44

Hmm, I think the SturmTiger is quite different from V1.
It is a vehicle, not offmap arty so yes in this it is different. But in terms of destructive power it is the same.
Image

JimQwilleran
Posts: 1107
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Terror doc

Postby JimQwilleran » 23 Dec 2016, 01:48

MarKr wrote:And we have't talked about this with others but I would support a price drop on PE tank factory too, it seems justified.

That's nice, it was ridiculously expensive! Slight cost drops of axis units might be nice. Not like they change too much, but they will surely make some impact.
Last edited by JimQwilleran on 23 Dec 2016, 01:50, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Panzerblitz1
Team Member
Posts: 1585
Joined: 24 Nov 2014, 00:12
Location: Paris, right under the Eiffel tower.

Re: Terror doc

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 23 Dec 2016, 01:50

Yes we heard you, we will lower some axis costs a bit to give you guys more lattitude in games, regarding the Sturmtiger its a closed case, no need to come back to it, as i said before, its final.
Image

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 855
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Terror doc

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 23 Dec 2016, 10:17

Good news.

User avatar
Leonida [525]
Posts: 138
Joined: 26 Jun 2016, 09:25

Re: Terror doc

Postby Leonida [525] » 23 Dec 2016, 11:13

Glad to hear these changes :) thx


Return to “General - CoH1 / BKMOD1”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests