Terror doc

[Panzerblitz1]

Yes, old habits die hard.

[JimQwilleran]

I agree with kwok, I don't find allies op at all. Just axis gameplay was shifted from "my op tiger and kch will roll over anything" to more like "I have to think before I act". I love that drift tbh.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Yep, you are right, axis are hell bad at the moment ( note, I think that axis are underpowered, not Allies OP ) thing is that allies have bunch of super cost effective stuff, and everything axis bring up can be countered by some cheap allied ability/unit like airstrikes, HE inf bashers and etc. In a well balanced pvp matchmeta is always the same for Germans - def till Panthers and walking Stuka, if you try to play agressively and push hard than you will get outnumbered really fast, because allies can afford high casualties, but not axis. As USA by min 40 I usually have crazy pop cap army with back up made by snipers and hidden tank hunters + continiues pushing with lots of armor or airborne units.

I don't agree that Terror is bad though, actually it's the best axis doc so far, though it's true that doc is really weak in early-mid stage, but if you managed to survive till Panther + Stuka + some vet grens with VT of 2 nebels doctrine can be super devastating, however I haven't seen that combo for ages, most of the time terror player gets his MP drained really fast.

Well said...

Overall the balance indeed has improved by much compared to older times.. however, there is definitely an edge to Allied favor currently; if I could say so.

[kwok]

But... that's how terror doc is designed to be played... slow and steady. How is that a balance problem?
If you wanted rapid aggressive axis style go blitz doc or PE.

[Panzerblitz1]

I agree with kwok, I don't find allies op at all. Just axis gameplay was shifted from "my op tiger and kch will roll over anything" to more like "I have to think before I act". I love that drift tbh.

Im glad to hear that, because it was the case of the "old" bk, there is enough and very powerful tools in the axis arsenal to encounter everything who's coming from allies.

[Leonida [525]]

Problem is that with most Axis docs you simply have to survive with your 4 expensive hero (for their bravery) units in the mid game, while a good allied player at the same time has the Saruman's army, cheap but also quite good units. It's like the Helms deep every time, only thing is that u have not a big wall, you can not know if u manage to resist, wait and have resources to make panther Gandalf and stuka Ents throwing rocks to counter spam (and they're not always the solution, it's often: u lose gandalf?, u lose the match)
Same skill level Terror vs AB or any other spam allied doc, in the mid game if axis player does not play difensively he simply loses the match, cuz cheap and effective allied inf, Hts, early tanks. I find easier as allied to spam cheap units and outnumber axis player than to be afraid as axis one to lose every single unit I have. If i lose a granadier squad i'm in big trouble, if I lose riflemen/ranger i've always tons of MP (supply yard helps) to make other 2-3 of them.
I'm not saying terror sucks, i think its the best WH doc, but I think axis has some serious lack of cost effective units

[sgtToni95]

LOL. Tell me please, when you did played PvP Game in last time? Look how play USA players ) Only armor - spam shermans with He and Airbone Spam 101/.. this is good balance ,))))
and i told with to many players , they are agree with me, allies more op then axis. really, try will play in pvp and you will see what i mean///

And what about Fallshirm + terror panthers? isn't it the same monotonous, super effective units use only?

That is what I say. This is especially important on large maps. And don't forget that they appear IMMEDIATELY with 1 vet lvl. good MS ? Flame granade pretty powerful weapons, the ability to build field staff.... A little ?///

What do you mean by "immediately with 1 vet"? They get vet from tech tree unlock after quite a few CP. Terror grens can get "immediate" vet from tech tree as well, plus they get free stgs and suppression bonuses which are not that bad don't you think? I don't like to come to "situational" examples, but just place an Mg42 in front of 101 and they are instantly suppressed and can't do shit (unless they're vet 3), place an mg nest in front of terr grens and, with bonuses, they can just run towards it and take it down, then fall back.

I think in theese posts the problem is not "terror sucks" but "terror vs AB sucks" (terror is one of the 2 axis docs "without" anti air/paras vehicles). This is quite like starting a topic called "Tanks doctrine" and going on to say how OP TH doc is against it. I know Ab is an overall good doc, but maybe chosing Def doc or SE could be a solution, even Bk doc has hostwinds which work quite good against paras, especially with He rounds. Might be absurd but i found even Pz 4 E (i know it's not so durable) loaded with HE extremely deadly against 101 but people just don't do it, as they don't do any 20mm panerwagen after losing the first, cause tehy're not so "click and forget" as many other axis units are.
If you want to go further with this topic i suggest you to try comparing Terror to all other docs allies have, and to compare other axis factions with Ab as well, maybe you'll find a solution to win your games in different ways. Think more globally.

[JimQwilleran]

I think in theese posts the problem is not "terror sucks" but "terror vs AB sucks" (terror is one of the 2 axis docs "without" anti air/paras vehicles). This is quite like starting a topic called "Tanks doctrine" and going on to say how OP TH doc is against it. I know Ab is an overall good doc, but maybe chosing Def doc or SE could be a solution, even Bk doc has hostwinds which work quite good against paras, especially with He rounds. Might be absurd but i found even Pz 4 E (i know it's not so durable) loaded with HE extremely deadly against 101 but people just don't do it, as they don't do any 20mm panerwagen after losing the first, cause tehy're not so "click and forget" as many other axis units are.
If you want to go further with this topic i suggest you to try comparing Terror to all other docs allies have, and to compare other axis factions with Ab as well, maybe you'll find a solution to win your games in different ways. Think more globally.

That's a very good point. The way to counter AB is quite like counter for luft. There are some docs that are highly vulnerable to luft like Armor (imo), and terror might be not the best vs AB. But what if you play vs AB as Blitz? Look: you can combine good Storms that can pick up a good fight with AB inf and support them with Panzer IV hordes. Even if allie player bomb your panzer IV, or even 2 at once, in next 45 sec you can get another one. Use ostwind as support/AA duty, kill any emplacement or inf blobb with maultier.
Toni is right, instead of coming here and crying, think of some good tactic to neutralize particular doc's advantages.

[idliketoplaybetter]

But what if you play vs AB as Blitz?

Funny.Basically that was a doctrinal/conceptual basis at vCoh.

Infantry doc against Defence
Airborne - Blitz
Armor - Terror.

Each has (and imo suppose to be) good at some certain situation, which Player analize.That's Coh's main strategy "thing" to me.So in most cases its just you, rather -picked wrong/early/late doctrine, Made - your build order incompetetive to a situation, then Units to be OP/Weak, eventhough i guess we all could bring up evidence of that kind too...based on our bias preferations mostly ^^

[Leonida [525]]

We are NOT talking only Terror vs AB, we are talking about

thing is that allies have bunch of super cost effective stuff, and everything axis bring up can be countered by some cheap allied ability/unit like airstrikes, HE inf bashers and etc. In a well balanced pvp matchmeta is always the same for Germans - def till Panthers and walking Stuka, if you try to play agressively and push hard than you will get outnumbered really fast, because allies can afford high casualties, but not axis

I've made that example because this is a Terror-related thread.
Terror is the most complete all-rounded DOC of entire Axis, and its the best to counter what?
1) AB you say not the best (very strong midgame, 82nd with 4 zooks?) ---> you have to survive till late game
2)RAF? Similar to AB (no terror AA, 17, typhoons, sas with crazy insane AT SLOTS (5-6 zooks??) strong midgame ---> you have to survive till late game
3) US Armor Doc? I dont think (Buffed 90mm, armor doc overwhelming midgame with tons of medium cheap tanks) --> merry Christmas and you have to survive till late game
4) RE? Which can deploy early churchills and if used decently you can dominate earlymid game, 17pounder? reinforced emplacements? comets and fireflies? --> have to survive till late game
5) US INF? Spam inf and early jumboes? -->happy new year and you have to survive till late game

U say Blitz doc is good?

Blitz player needs 7 CP for making basic Stoss, And "cheap" pz ivs, when AB players with 2 CP can spam 101st squads, with 5 CP you can spam 101, give to one squad 4 recoiless rifles, you can have 82nd squads (with max crazy 4 zooks) and flame nades that blitz doesnt have). You can say goodbye to ostwinds (which can die even with long range t48, and when they move they cant hit anything) and pz ivs. You cant spam pz ivs if you have to pay for some stoss squads and reinforce them continuously, and they're not so cheap in fuel. To give all weapons to stormtroopers and make them decent you have to spend 200 ammo lol. AB is effective against any doc, cmon.
So when someone come into this forum and say that maybe AB could have some balance problems he is crying, but when some people came here after 4.9.5 saying that luft fallschirm were OP it's good? Players understood how to counter fallschirm just like happened in past with churchills after their buff.

PS. All docs changed in these years, Blitz doc is more or less the same since 2010 or before lol

[Krieger Blitzer]

But... that's how terror doc is designed to be played... slow and steady. How is that a balance problem?
If you wanted rapid aggressive axis style go blitz doc or PE.

Well, in my own perspective... I think the problem isn't Terror doc. Although that there are actually few things in Terror doc that makes no sense.. such as the firestorm off-map incendiary rocket barrage for example; simply overpriced. Specifically after delaying the walking Stuka. It used to require no Command Points at all.. but now it suddenly requires 5 CPs! Therefore the firestorm should either become cheaper (maybe from 200 to 185 ammo), or the Stuka unlock should be swapped with it... This way the Stuka would be available after 3 CPs which is more acceptable.

However, the main problem still isn't the Terror doc. But AB doc is perhaps extremely diverse... For example; Hellcats were recently added to this doctrine.. that was due to the bombing run airstrike not working most of the times. But the airstrikes later got fixed, as they deal some intense damage now. And here comes the question; then why Hellcats were added to this doc in the first place? I believe they should probably exist no more in AB doc.. after fixing the airstrike.
>>> Also, the bombing run airstrike need to cost even more.. in 4.9.5 it cost only 200 ammo. in 4.9.6 it costs 215 ammo... While it should cost about 240 ammo or so! Don't forget AB already have supply drops.

And the problem with the Quad AA emplacements is not only how easily you could afford them.. but also how hard they could be destroyed. I can remember I once had a 4v4 game where I spammed 5 Quad AA emplacements all over the map... Opponent team had 1 SE doc and 1 Def doc. But surprisingly, they weren't able to kill a single AA somehow. Even the Grille couldn't! AA Quads should either have significantly less HP, or to be constructed only via AB Engineers... At least this unit would be more useful then.

U say Blitz doc is good?

Aaaaaaaah, thank you so much for bringing this up...
Blitz doc.. just a pain currently. This is probably the weakest Axis doc atm! Storms had their evasive maneuvers taken away as it's now available only after the veterancy unlock. Mass production for Pz.IV was delayed... Tigers became more expensive; and Tiger Ace is now coming with only a single veterancy level.. which means you still can't use the Accurate Long Range Shot ability yet. Pershing Ace is coming with only 1 veterancy level too. But who is using it anyway?? Even normal Pershings can be Vet1 after the unlock, it's always the Super Pershing which is selected.
What else? Even trades became more expensive in Blitz doc!
Blitz doc is going to suffer even more against Armor and RE docs after adding aim time to handheld AT weapons... RE doc is performing so well against Blitz doc now, specifically after buffing Churchills.

So, at least; SturmTiger should be REALLY added to Blitz doc as a reward to Tiger Ace.. while probably increasing the price of the SturmTiger to 1000 MP or so, and the Demo Storm squad should be able to use evasive maneuvers by default. I guess we have earlier mentioned about this too many times now...

With that being said, I still have to admit that the overall balance has definitely improved. It's undeniable that Bk mod is surely evolving.. so nothing serious, but just few balance tweaks apparently need to be made.

[Wh1tetiger]

I use radio spy... it's almost my first buy if I'm against a player I don't know... that's how you win and be aggressive as terror, with info. Building counters in response is so helpful, hints of when they tech up? When they built tank depot? Mortor pool? You can preemptively build AT. Jesus, so many blanket statements and claims with almost no examples on this forum lately and it hurts.

Radio spy - the best ability for i know that. Ok for you terror doc fine? Right ? Lets play ? i try play with all and all say me - not... Because - not time, because not interesting, and etc. etc/ Mark say what you are very good pvp player and he listen what you say, because you strong and know how need use tactic and more more more... Well, lets battle ?

What about ability goliaphs ? You are learn this is teach at second after radio spy ?

[Wh1tetiger]

I use radio spy... it's almost my first buy if I'm against a player I don't know... that's how you win and be aggressive as terror, with info. Building counters in response is so helpful, hints of when they tech up? When they built tank depot? Mortor pool? You can preemptively build AT. Jesus, so many blanket statements and claims with almost no examples on this forum lately and it hurts.

I was about to say.

Intelligence is in game but also in reality one of the most important things in war. Also when they build an emplacment you get the info. If you click on the info (left side screen) the camera switches right to the place where its build. That can help the team to coordinate arty..

And especially in the early stages it can help you. Preventing waste of res (like you see when an US player does not tier up fast you wont have a need to build up massive costly AT lines....

Srsly. Or when you just knocked out a costly unit like firefily or jacks and if you kept an eye on the incoming intelligence you might see whether the enemie quickly replaced it (you then prevent rushing in with panther) or not (then you can attack more safety).... Later on you might lose the overview (of what is build and lost) but in early stages when game is is more clear as well as the estimated ressources of the opponent it can be a huge help to get the right stuff at the right time...

Look, stop trying to hang noodles on the ears actually starts to annoy.. Now what you say builds units. Let's play, but it'd all busy, but all give good advice.
It is absolutely not necessary skills. For anything that you say use spotters ....

[Wh1tetiger]

Yes, there are two things in this doctrine, which is ABSOLUTELY not used and may be we replace this teach ? This (RadioSpy) intelligence - nobody uses it and it generally is not needed may make sense to replace something else ? The reduction of the cost Goliaph - the same thing. In General, I think this doctrine needs a little punching up, to take something that would enter the Ruhr in the doctrine of Propaganda.

I think the problem maybe is the way you used to play axis before isn't now the best way to win, Bk changed a lot, but in the good direction, i think its more that, rather having an OP allies, if i may say.
And recon units are the first going into battle now, its vital, yes KCH are gone for good, because it was silly, and yes the SAS is still strong but also for a good reason.

Look, you deny the obvious. The fact that the Terror doctrine requires processing said long ago. But now you how Burganovsky ass not to notice the obvious. The fact that SAS is strong - it is obvious not only for you but for everyone. And the fact that they are not undone by whatever reasons - just words. The explanation may be one, for all the crying that allies suck and they need up. Because pvp players still play against the computer. And computers one tactic - spam, spam and again spam.

[Wh1tetiger]

101st squads are actually true champions with flame nades.

Well they are champions in front of which units? Pios? Panzergrenadiers? because in front of Heavy grenadier, Sturmtroops, Sturmpios, Fallsh, Gebirgs, SS troops etc... they don't stand a chance in close / mid distance...
Remove or nerf the AB 101st and it become useless, again.

I talk about small nerf.... delete flame granade... SS storm troopers or regular PE inf - suxx... They are easy dead... have a 2-3 vet lvl... You simple not long play.... really...

[Wh1tetiger]

Classic example of bk blindness, only using what you want to use instead of what is available. So many powerful tools available but never used. I hate to reveal this, but did you know with inspired assault you can take down the allegedly OP AA emplacement with two AT teams within 7ish seconds? The damage boost and rof increase... but you don't hear me complaining "BUFF EMPLACEMENT HEALTH AND NERF PANZERSHRECKS, TOTALLY UNREALISTIC TO HAVE AT CLEAR EMPLACEMENTS SO FAST." No, you know why? Because the counter to THAT is to spend maybe 30 my putting mines right outside my AA guns. So you see, there are solutions to everything if you can think just outside of the typical units you use.

Likewise if you truly face so much trouble against allies... I dunno maybe use the 30 other axis vehicles that just never get used. Did you know PE has a little halftrack that can fire a rocket that oneshots a full health (not overrepped) jumbo? And it has a lower cooldown and cost than those "OP" raf air strikes, available for all doctrines, and is available at like t2 if I remember right.

Of course I know about this rocket. The same thing have PAK. Here are just a precision she had not, and it always breaks the same Jumbo. So, to say that someone is something does not use is not correct. We always use the whole Arsenal and inspiration as well... I'm telling you about a few other things that at the beginning of the game Axis sucks.

[Wh1tetiger]

I agree with kwok, I don't find allies op at all. Just axis gameplay was shifted from "my op tiger and kch will roll over anything" to more like "I have to think before I act". I love that drift tbh.

But i not see you in PVP mode... let's play you are axis ))) And you will see what i mean....

[Wh1tetiger]

I agree with kwok, I don't find allies op at all. Just axis gameplay was shifted from "my op tiger and kch will roll over anything" to more like "I have to think before I act". I love that drift tbh.

Im glad to hear that, because it was the case of the "old" bk, there is enough and very powerful tools in the axis arsenal to encounter everything who's coming from allies.

Certainly glad to hear that. However, all proves who's foaming at the mouth, everything is OK, little play in PVP against strong players. In General I think that everything is OK, I suggest you let the AXIS just engineers - everyone will be happy. This conversation is finished for me. I met here a decent cushion opponents are. They hear what they want to hear.

[Wh1tetiger]

Yep, you are right, axis are hell bad at the moment ( note, I think that axis are underpowered, not Allies OP ) thing is that allies have bunch of super cost effective stuff, and everything axis bring up can be countered by some cheap allied ability/unit like airstrikes, HE inf bashers and etc. In a well balanced pvp matchmeta is always the same for Germans - def till Panthers and walking Stuka, if you try to play agressively and push hard than you will get outnumbered really fast, because allies can afford high casualties, but not axis. As USA by min 40 I usually have crazy pop cap army with back up made by snipers and hidden tank hunters + continiues pushing with lots of armor or airborne units.

I don't agree that Terror is bad though, actually it's the best axis doc so far, though it's true that doc is really weak in early-mid stage, but if you managed to survive till Panther + Stuka + some vet grens with VT of 2 nebels doctrine can be super devastating, however I haven't seen that combo for ages, most of the time terror player gets his MP drained really fast.

Well said...

Overall the balance indeed has improved by much compared to older times.. however, there is definitely an edge to Allied favor currently; if I could say so.

That is what I say. I'm not saying things got worse, I say that allies have the advantage and in games 2 ver 2 it is more significant, though mod has always been confined to games 2 ver 2/

[Krieger Blitzer]

Mate, regardless whether I agree or even disagree with what you say; but there is an invention called "Edit" button! If you keep spamming your posts over and over like this.. then you are clearly derailing this thread... I have already told u once :/

[JimQwilleran]

We are NOT talking only Terror vs AB, we are talking about

thing is that allies have bunch of super cost effective stuff, and everything axis bring up can be countered by some cheap allied ability/unit like airstrikes, HE inf bashers and etc. In a well balanced pvp matchmeta is always the same for Germans - def till Panthers and walking Stuka, if you try to play agressively and push hard than you will get outnumbered really fast, because allies can afford high casualties, but not axis

I've made that example because this is a Terror-related thread.
Terror is the most complete all-rounded DOC of entire Axis, and its the best to counter what?
1) AB you say not the best (very strong midgame, 82nd with 4 zooks?) ---> you have to survive till late game
2)RAF? Similar to AB (no terror AA, 17, typhoons, sas with crazy insane AT SLOTS (5-6 zooks??) strong midgame ---> you have to survive till late game
3) US Armor Doc? I dont think (Buffed 90mm, armor doc overwhelming midgame with tons of medium cheap tanks) --> merry Christmas and you have to survive till late game
4) RE? Which can deploy early churchills and if used decently you can dominate earlymid game, 17pounder? reinforced emplacements? comets and fireflies? --> have to survive till late game
5) US INF? Spam inf and early jumboes? -->happy new year and you have to survive till late game

U say Blitz doc is good?

Blitz player needs 7 CP for making basic Stoss, And "cheap" pz ivs, when AB players with 2 CP can spam 101st squads, with 5 CP you can spam 101, give to one squad 4 recoiless rifles, you can have 82nd squads (with max crazy 4 zooks) and flame nades that blitz doesnt have). You can say goodbye to ostwinds (which can die even with long range t48, and when they move they cant hit anything) and pz ivs. You cant spam pz ivs if you have to pay for some stoss squads and reinforce them continuously, and they're not so cheap in fuel. To give all weapons to stormtroopers and make them decent you have to spend 200 ammo lol. AB is effective against any doc, cmon.
So when someone come into this forum and say that maybe AB could have some balance problems he is crying, but when some people came here after 4.9.5 saying that luft fallschirm were OP it's good? Players understood how to counter fallschirm just like happened in past with churchills after their buff.

PS. All docs changed in these years, Blitz doc is more or less the same since 2010 or before lol

You are wrong in all your points. You point out how many CP and manpower axis player needs, but never mention what allie player needs. Sorry, but your post is not objective. And yes, I would call this crying because u don't pick actual data and compare it, for example "To give all weapons to stormtroopers and make them decent you have to spend 200 ammo lol. AB is effective against any doc, cmon." So AB has free weapons?? Please write after you chill down.

[Wh1tetiger]

Problem is that with most Axis docs you simply have to survive with your 4 expensive hero (for their bravery) units in the mid game, while a good allied player at the same time has the Saruman's army, cheap but also quite good units. It's like the Helms deep every time, only thing is that u have not a big wall, you can not know if u manage to resist, wait and have resources to make panther Gandalf and stuka Ents throwing rocks to counter spam (and they're not always the solution, it's often: u lose gandalf?, u lose the match)
Same skill level Terror vs AB or any other spam allied doc, in the mid game if axis player does not play difensively he simply loses the match, cuz cheap and effective allied inf, Hts, early tanks. I find easier as allied to spam cheap units and outnumber axis player than to be afraid as axis one to lose every single unit I have. If i lose a granadier squad i'm in big trouble, if I lose riflemen/ranger i've always tons of MP (supply yard helps) to make other 2-3 of them.
I'm not saying terror sucks, i think its the best WH doc, but I think axis has some serious lack of cost effective units

Bravo! Finally someone understood what I mean.

[JimQwilleran]

I agree with kwok, I don't find allies op at all. Just axis gameplay was shifted from "my op tiger and kch will roll over anything" to more like "I have to think before I act". I love that drift tbh.

But i not see you in PVP mode... let's play you are axis ))) And you will see what i mean....

Being so cocky here won't serve you. Almost anybody here is better than you. We have played a game already. U lost . (and raged btw)
Also I reported you for spamming.

[Paso95]

You are wrong in all your points. You point out how many CP and manpower axis player needs, but never mention what allie player needs. Sorry, but your post is not objective. And yes, I would call this crying because u don't pick actual data and compare it, for example "To give all weapons to stormtroopers and make them decent you have to spend 200 ammo lol. AB is effective against any doc, cmon." So AB has free weapons?? Please write after you chill down.

Sorry but Leonida actually pointed out that with 5 CP ab doc can be very competitive, even against BK doc. And compared to blitz doc, ab has very very cheap weapons: free recoilless and descount on their weapons which made them very cheap. In addition 82nd has free weapons.

[JimQwilleran]

Sorry but Leonida actually pointed out that with 5 CP ab doc can be very competitive, even against BK doc. And compared to blitz doc, ab has very very cheap weapons: free recoilless and descount on their weapons which made them very cheap. In addition 82nd has free weapons.

Because AB is inf oriented doc, so their inf is better. Blitz on the other hand has various types of tanks, that AB doesn't. Isn't that fair? Should blitz be better in both? That would be balanced?