Why isn't BK on Steam?

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
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Jagdpanther
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 29 May 2016, 21:15

I'm amazed by the speed you reply when someone criticize you. Why don't you post so fast about important topics like:

-What is the state of the mod ATM?
-Do you still work on it, what changes are you working on?
- What is the ETA for the next patch?
-Why is the development snail like?
- Why don't you post on other forums asking for help from other passionate coders on things you have a difficult time with so that the development can go faster?
-Why are you and Markr the only 2 developers when it's supposed to be a community mod?
-Why isn't PASSIONATE players like Warhawks in the dev team?
- You said you listened and used some of his suggestions, then why is he not credited in the 4.9.5?

Now a bit more serious:


translation

"Yea lets give the impression im a serious guy and lets make this guy look like a kid that has no idea wtf hes talking about"

- I don't believe that Tiger's idea is right also, I don't think new players would seek prizes.


I explained why i dont think its a good idea, why do YOU think its not a good idea? At least HE'S trying. WTF do you do besides posting 1 update per year and reply in 2 seconds whenever someone criticizes you? I don't think you are the right "leader" for this mod with your history of "achievements".

- No I am not afraid to be put in prison, re read (if you even read it) what MarKr wrote.


I read it don't worry. My reply is: Nothing ventured nothing gained. It takes balls to do such GREAT MOVE SINCE THE RISK IS ENORMOUS . So if you don't have the cojones to make such a huge move why dont you let someone else do it?

- Changing scripts is nothing really hard for anybody who has aleast above average computer skills, so yeah, I have no doubt that warhawks did his own modification (which IF its played, also takes another players from BK).


Im not suggesting 2 official versions of BK, what im suggesting is every change should be subject to vote NO MATTER WHO MADE IT. And im not talking about suggestions here, everyone can suggest, im talking about code. Warhawks created changes/code. Why isnt it posted for a vote so that the COMMUNITY can decide what gets implemented and what not?

- "Everyone is able to contribute with code, suggestions etc." ... seems like you haven't been there for the last two years, as thats exactly what was happening. But you cant make EVERY SINGLE FUCKING SUGGESTION or take EVERY CODE that somebody posts or suggests, especially if you have two very different opinions from players. Also, what MarKr wrote "if anybody wants to help with this you are free to do so, but I strongly recommend to find solid information (best would be directly from Steam support) in order to save your nerves and potentially time too", that is something that community CAN do and did you do it? Did somebody else do it? That is something that COMMUNITY can contribute.


No ive been here , ive been here since Xalibur was still active, i think thats more than 2 years, what ive seen were patches released by you without any info on who else contributed besides you and Markr. Again im not talking about suggestions, every joe and his brother can suggest, what im talking is CODE since few have the capability to offer that. 2 different opinions for players, do you want me to teach you how the voting system works, if its 2-1 then the 2 won, simple as that, min 3 persons have to vote and even with 3 persons its more democratic than you working on a patch without anyone knowing what the hell the new changes will be. So you want me to do the shitty work like taking the steam info. Well you're the "leader", you have to do shitty work too not just what you want. My take on this issue is just put it out there, if it sticks then great, if not then great again, AT LEAST WE TRIED. No fucking sane person will sue you for a fucking mod that 50 people play and to which you have no financial gain. The worst that could happen is a simple REJECTION.

- posts = leadership


Yea that's a huge factor in showing the level of passion someone has.

- Almost the same with MODDB, yep, back when CoH was relatively new, THERE WASN'T CoH2, there wasn't shitload of other games, trends, probably it wasn't even after Indie games growth to the top, before CoH even moved to steam, before unnotified desync, yeah... back then it was good. And most importantly it was something pretty new in CoH, now what? We have most logical units ingame, we have good effects, full command trees... of course there won't be something epic new. And really, coh2 is pretty much our main "competitor", due to similar fanbase.


I think you're tring to say that since more shit is on the market thats why BK lost its popularity. A lot of people will agree that CoH 2 is worse that Coh 1 even if its 10 years old.

- Why the hell do you still think, that new players would be interested in the mod JUST BECAUSE IT IS ON STEAM??? And more importantly, that they would stay for more than a week.


Look at EaW, a shitty mod that has great succes on steam, what other proof do you need? Steam is where players dwell, THATS WHY STEAM IS IMPORTANT, because has the MONOPOLY on pc games even mods, moddb means shit now.

- Forum was changed because we didn't have control over the old one, so there would still be Download 4.6 version beta download... well no, it would be deleted completely. And no, warhawks didn't have hundreds of thumbs up, and for my "defense" I had a very good thumbs up ratio also, if thats something you consider important...


Warhawks had more thumbs up than you either you like it or not. I remember that forum very well.

- Your only suggestion is to "put it on greenlight" ... you are not the first one, like I answered tiger. MarKr also told you that we are not saying definite NO, but we (or you know... community!) have to do some research first and then some work to actually MAKE IT WORK and then hope that it has atleast some positive effect. Yes we now dont have time to do it and we told you, we told you that you can help.


Its my only suggestion because this move would have the biggest positive impact on bk in a long time. Your research will take years from i can tell based on your updates history.

- "if you don't have time or the will to give this mod the attention it deserves then have some dignity and leave it on the hands of people that do",... honestly? It would be very interesting to give it to Tiger as you suggested because of post number and activity (sorry tiger, I know that you mean it well etc. but yeah), not only you called his latest idea "shit ass" and "stupid", so your new defacto leader would be better I guess? Plus like 75% of the community would probably want to crucify you for this suggestion. But of course you talked to Warhawks, so we all know many Warhawks ideas. A lot of people are actually mad at me because some warhawks suggestions were implemented. But yeah, sure, if somebody has something significant that will help the mod a lot, like solving desync, he will be praised a lot.


I didnt said Tiger should be in charge with the coding part since hes not even a coder afaik, he should be in charge with promotion since hes very keen about this area from we can all see. YOU + Marks + Warhawks + other coders we can get by making a recruiting campaign (so the development progresses faster with move devs working on it) should be in charge with the coding part and THE COMMUNITY with the VOTING/GREENLIGHT TO IMPLEMENT part should be in charge. Maybe you could avoid people being mad at you if you'd MADE A POLL WITH EVERY CHANGE BEFORE ADDING IT, then the majority decides, you'd have no blame. And about this desync thing, i dont actually know what the hell is it, if its this crash https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7VA248Mens well for me it rarely happens maybe in 10% of the games so i dont see what's a big deal with it. Its probably because of wooden pcs or clogged OS's with shitty programs caused by kids who dont know basic windows cleaning, i posted a thread on how to get smooth crash free gameplay but instead of being pinned, its been buried by other topics. For the wooden pc guys well God forgive them, pc upgrade or back to minecraft.

- "I hope they ban me for my colorful depiction of reality so everyone can see what cowards they are.", you are practically saying if we ban you, we are wrong, but we can't really do anything, because you think you are right and so that gives you the right to attack whoever you want for whatever you want, but we are the bad guys. Okay... you can attack me, I will "attack" you, my colorful depiction:
"NO DEVS EVER CONSIDERED HIS SUGGESTIONS FROM HIS 2000 POSTS ON THIS FORUM" - is bullshit, plain lie, ask the community, if Warhawks told you otherwise, then he forgot a lot


If you truly considered his suggestions he wouldnt made his own mod and write 2000 posts

"The "leader should be the most passionate about this mod and that's Warhawks97, the poor guy wasted half of his life writing fucking 2000 posts on this dead forum" - is one of the most idiotic things I have ever read


if you dont get the idea then i guess it sounds idiotic yea, let me translate it for ya, he spent a lot of time arguing until he said "fuck it im gonna build my own castle"

"maybe it was the fact that it had a rep system for every post and Warhawks suggestions had hundreds of thumbs up? Or maybe so that "The Leader" can take full control of the mod by saying he pays for the host and domain. I can pay for the fucking host and domain, everyone can." - okay, this one is close to beating the previous


Yes the truth is he had more thumbs ups and more popularity than you on the old forum. The fact that you changed the forum because you had no control over it it was my mistake but BASED ON THE FACT THAT YOU DIDNT MENTIONED THIS, you just changed it and invited everyone to the new "home"

To make myself completely clear, I am attacking you now, as your reality seems to be highly altered by your talk with Warhawks (although I always considered warhawks a good guy) or who knows by what and you are telling us a lot of nonsense.


He is a good guy, he didnt "altered my reality" im telling the facts. Can you explain me why he just decided he will make his own version if you were such "good mates" collaborating in harmony?

STEAM GREENLIGHT AND THERE WILL BE THOUSANDS OF PLAYERS!!!


For sure there will be more than now!
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Wolf
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Wolf » 29 May 2016, 21:38

I will give you very fast reply, as I am not going to read your post anymore after I have seen "My reply is: Nothing ventured nothing gained. It takes balls to do such GREAT MOVE SINCE THE RISK IS ENORMOUS . So if you don't have the cojones to make such a huge move why dont you let someone else do it?" ... you clearly didn't read what we wrote on the topic.. or you can't read, either way, why should I waste the time replying if you absolutely ignore what we both wrote.
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Jagdpanther
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 29 May 2016, 22:01

Wolf wrote:I will give you very fast reply, as I am not going to read your post anymore after I have seen "My reply is: Nothing ventured nothing gained. It takes balls to do such GREAT MOVE SINCE THE RISK IS ENORMOUS . So if you don't have the cojones to make such a huge move why dont you let someone else do it?" ... you clearly didn't read what we wrote on the topic.. or you can't read, either way, why should I waste the time replying if you absolutely ignore what we both wrote.


Yea im too stupid and i cant read, and you're too smart to waste your time reading my arguments. Easiest way to end the conversation without a stain on your immaculate leadership.

This was my last attempt to try to save this sinking ship by adding some fuel on the fire challenging this Wolf character but it seems people like the current state of the affairs so there is no reason for me to continue.
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Wolf » 29 May 2016, 22:03

Yep, cause your argumenting "I will attack, you can ban me but that means I won the argument" is mature...

You can't see it? You can't see that what you are saying is a lie, multiple lies tied together, with fact that you don't know things? Yet I am the bad one (again)
Coming here, telling us that you are right and we are all wrong is definitely your attempt to save the mod...
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 29 May 2016, 22:20

Wolf wrote:Yep, cause your argumenting "I will attack, you can ban me but that means I won the argument" is mature...

You can't see it? You can't see that what you are saying is a lie, multiple lies tied together, with fact that you don't know things? Yet I am the bad one (again)


Well banning me wouldnt be such a far fetched thing since a lot of people were banned on the old forum BY YOU for having different opinions. I said "you can ban me" as a safety net since i dont want to make it easy for you. If i didnt said that and be a little bit more aggressive i would probably be banned.

Lies upon lies, if i was such a good liar i would have been in Ibiza snorting cocaine off bitches asses but instead im on this god forsaken place arguing about a fucking mod. Hahaha ha ha isnt life a wonderful journey?
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Wolf » 29 May 2016, 22:24

Name more than 3 people I banned. You lie again.
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MarKr
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby MarKr » 30 May 2016, 13:16

Stop being excited about anything new for this mod, i was excited too that's why i started this thread but from the replies i got you can see the spirit of the current "leadership", they are little pussies afraid that steam will put them in prison for a helmet swastika that you need a magnifier glass to see. We even agreed to pay for the fucking fee and they still dont want to.
First of all - what "new" would you like to see in the mod? New units? There is no need to add something with the only reason being "because it would be new" - if there is a unit that would fill a hole in some doctrine then maybe but otherwise there's really no reson for it.
Second: you said you would be wiling to help. We told you, and community in general, how you can help and your andswer is more or less "Screw it! It will take too long, just risk it!". I think that ever since I wrote that post, if you contacted Steam and would do some research, you would have the info by now. But no, it is simply "too much work". Wanna help? Come back with the info. Wolf's got a point in this - you keep repeating how community should be able to contribute but your only contribution so far is what exactely?

maybe they are good, maybe they should be added for a vote (uncheatable with every person saying in the thread if he agrees or not)
How exactely are polls "uncheatable"? There are people out there who have tons of people on their friend list (some of them don't even play BK and some of them only play compstomp) and these people talk and talk and talk and convince the compstompers to come and vote for whatever they are told or some would come and vote simply to get some peace from these "lobbysts". Doesn't seem that fair to me.

He told me Wolf didnt even wanted to take a look at his changes, nothing, pure avoidance. WHAT KIND OF COMMUNITY MOD IS THIS?
From what you write I guess you, yourself, don't know how to mod or what it takes. The process itself is not that hard but it often requires hours of testing to see if the changes you made work. You also have the game installed and you have the official version + possibly other versions with changes you have made already and are working, then one with changes that are in progress and not working well so far etc. that means every time sitching the game files according to what version you want to start. I already said how time-consuming the modding itself is, now imagine that somebody sends you their version with numerous little changes that are mostly not visible - like really, Hawks tweaked some weapon stats and that is not something you see, you need to play the game for some time to see the impact of the changes (because the game is based on random factors, just one short look at stuff like this won't tell you much).
And as already said, there are Hawk's ideas in the mod already.

Who the fuck made Wolf the decision maker for this mod? The "leader" (in quotations since there is not supposed to be one since its a community mod but still someone has to be the "official voice" of the community) should be the most passionate about this mod
Oh boy...For someone who claims to be around ever since Xalibur's time you surely have short memory. So, a history lesson (as it was explained to me by person who remembers all this): Xalibur started the mod, was the only one who made changes, his team were beta testers (they did no actual coding (modding), Xalibur left and left his team in the charge for time being - mod was in some "public beta" stage or something...and nothing was happening as the dev team didn't want to do anything without Xali's approval and Xali was impossible to contact. Then somebody outside the team started something called "BK Community Patch". Guess who it was? Yes, Wolf. He invested his time into a mod which was practicaly standing on a dead spot but he saw potential and started his unofficial patches which brought some new life to the mod. After some time the old dev team agreed on putting Wolf in charge of the mod. Given the fact that Wolf started his Community patch project and basically brought the mod back to life I wouldn't question his passion for the mod.

@ number of posts = passion for the mod...have you ever thought about the option that maybe when you spend X hours modding and testing the changes you don't really feel like arguing with people on the forum about everything you just did? Such as ...well..yeah, this one.

This mod once in top 10 mods of all time for a few good years now its ~#80, only veteran deadly players are still lurking in the lobby raping new players making it almost impossible for the community to grow. It was in top 10 because of the constant updates, now the development is snail like, an update per year won't do much good to the mod and that's because they DON'T ALLOW OTHER PEOPLE TO CONTRIBUTE.
What you say makes no sense...do you really expect that a game that is about ten years old will simply keep it's fame forever? It is not about patches or who contributes. After time people simply get tired of playing the same game all over and over again. I love Mass Effect series and I've made several playthrughs with different characters and explored pretty much everything the game offers. I still consider it one of the best sci-fi RPGs ever but I don't really feel like playing it again any time soon. Perhaps ME is not as moddable and surely modding potential increases interest from the players so another example - do you remember Operation Flashpoint? The first one (not the Dragon rising bullshit that came out few years back)? That game was awesome and had huge modding community...people created new models, mission even whole campaigns, huge multiplayer potential. The game stuck around for a few years but now it is pretty much dead...after time people simply moved to other games, not to mention the sequels (ArmA series). Long story short: games simply fade out after time, some sooner, some later and who are we kidding here the fact alone that game is still being played even after 10 years is quite a feat on its own.

Also why the fuck they changed the forum? What was wrong with the old one, maybe it was the fact that it had a rep system for every post and Warhawks suggestions had hundreds of thumbs up? Or maybe so that "The Leader" can take full control of the mod by saying he pays for the host and domain. I can pay for the fucking host and domain, everyone can.
Oh yeah, simply skip to conclusions that play in your cards rather than try to find some facts...The old forum was payed by Xalibur, he was unreachable. He had admin rights so it was impossible to change anouncements and stuff. Wolf said it, also as Tiger said - there were problems for people with registrations - sometimes you waited for validation for weeks. One day the old forum simply shut down...we don't know why and we can be only glad that Wolf started the new forum when he did.

I hope they ban me for my colorful depiction of reality so everyone can see what cowards they are.
If you really need to use these manipulation techniques, use them elsewhere. Nobody in interested in them here.

As for the second post...

-What is the state of the mod ATM?
Best balance in a long time. Still some things need tweaking and few bugs fixing.
-Do you still work on it, what changes are you working on?
Yes, currently tunining defensive bonuses for Reg5 (requested by community), making Gammon bombs more effective against soldiers in houses/trenches (requested by community), Luft pios in FHQ should be visible properly (noted by community), TH PIV F1 should be correctly affected by Vet unlock (requested by community), fixing the bug where some tanks are able to move in static mode (pointed at and requested by community), Luft emplaced 88s should no longer have the "unload button" (my mess up from last patch), few new icons added, some unit/building/upgrade describtion corrections.
When you look at the stuff, most of it is requested by community...so so much for BK not being community mod.
- What is the ETA for the next patch?
Can provide no ETA
-Why is the development snail like?
Sorry, we'll move to Warp speed from on. Like really what would be your ideal development rate? How often should the patches come out? Look at the forum - there are not many suggestions or bug reports these days so what should be the patches patching all the time? And generaly speaking if there is no crucial bug it is better to release one pack of changes than releasing small patches containing 3 changes each.
- Why don't you post on other forums asking for help from other passionate coders on things you have a difficult time with so that the development can go faster?
When I need something done and get stuck I ask at different forums how the problem could be solved...usually I get no answer. I don't want to brag but I guess we're at such point in modding that if it is not something fricking complicated we know how to do it without outside help and if don't know how to do it then usually even people outside don't know and then you need to go with the "trial - error" way which is a long process.
-Why isn't PASSIONATE players like Warhawks in the dev team?
Doing what exactely? I mean no disrespect towards him but last time I talked to him he had some knowledge of modding but not really as much as I or Wolf. That means that what he can do can we do too and what would take us some time to figure out would take him even longer. And he can share his ideas in the forum where we will read them. Just because someone has yellow nick doesn't mean his oppinion is automatically more valuable.
btw: If passionate = "should be dev" in your book, then I guess you should be dev too, right? You are displaying a lot of passion here with all those "fuck" words.
- You said you listened and used some of his suggestions, then why is he not credited in the 4.9.5?
In the change log only people who do some actual job are noted. Hawks said his ideas such as "This unit should be like this" but we did the changes. People are credited if they give us finished work that we cannot do ourselves (textures, models etc.) Also if you look into the change log you can see there:
- Puma has fixed HE shots now (thanks to Warhawks for finding the bug)

Im not suggesting 2 official versions of BK, what im suggesting is every change should be subject to vote NO MATTER WHO MADE IT. And im not talking about suggestions here, everyone can suggest, im talking about code. Warhawks created changes/code. Why isnt it posted for a vote so that the COMMUNITY can decide what gets implemented and what not?
You see, making a change is not that hard. I dare to say that anyone can learn it within a few days. So if your "system" was on, then basically "suggestion = poll" because if someone suggests that this or that weapon should be stronger, then changing the stats takes a few minutes and if they learn that making the change will get the poll on then they will simply learn to make the changes and every tiny change (weapon stats, units HP etc..) will end up in a poll.

Also there are changes that were simply given a red light because they sound cool in theory but in praxis they will mess up the game on a huge scale - e.g. buffing hull and coaxial MGs on tanks. Yeah, sounds cool but right now everybody is used to the fact that you can run infront of tanks with no significant threat (unless they are HE tanks). Do you remember what people said when a Jeep gut MG buffed (after we brought it down after the first OP version)? Axis players were like "OMFG Jeep is OP my infantry gets killed instantly!!!" well, same with WH Bike when it fires at infantry without cover...anyway, can you immagine that every tank MG gets buffed to a level that it is actually effective? On most tanks hull + coaxial + Top MGs...they would shred infantry in seconds, no HE needed. Now you say "well, that's how it should be if you rush tanks with infantry", maybe in reality but can you immagine what a game changer it would be for infantry-based doctrines?
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby JimQwilleran » 30 May 2016, 18:51

I love your post Markr. Seriously, I wondered about all that stuff, thinking how would it be good to describe it, and then I see your post. Everything explained nicely.

And I finally learnt some BK history too :D.

Sir, I salute you!

But on the other hand I understand Jagdpanther a bit. I think that everybody at least once had that "I HAVE AN IDEA!" rush moment, when you think that what you find out is the most wonderful and logic stuff in the world, that just people HAVE TO agree with you... And then others are like "meh", that's frustrating I am sure :/.

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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby kwok » 30 May 2016, 20:59

Play big maps.

Lol jk. As much as we can sympathize Jp's feelings, I don't think I can ever accept his behavior. He feels so powerful calling out the ban threats when I really think he has crossed the line that is ban worthy. Direct forward insulting and cursing? Barely constructive conversation? Essentially causing drama where there really shouldn't be?

To be honest, the only times I've ever seen devs threaten to ban or even talk about it is when I see fairly reasonable people snap and then devs corrale them back in and say "guys keep it down". Meanwhile the people who parade around saying the worst, most presumptuous, libel are free to say whatever they want and the message is normally for others to "let them be".

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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby JimQwilleran » 30 May 2016, 21:15

kwok wrote:Meanwhile the people who parade around saying the worst, most presumptuous, libel are free to say whatever they want and the message is normally for others to "let them be".


Are you thinking of some specific cat or... :D?

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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby MarKr » 30 May 2016, 21:31

To be honest, the only times I've ever seen devs threaten to ban or even talk about it is when I see fairly reasonable people snap and then devs corrale them back in and say "guys keep it down". Meanwhile the people who parade around saying the worst, most presumptuous, libel are free to say whatever they want and the message is normally for others to "let them be".
I say to people to calm down when they start to insult each other while the insult itself being pretty much the only point of their posts. JP is protesting against something while raising questions which explain (though not excuse) his rage.
So I would like to answer his questions, try to calm him down and make him see reason...and only after that ban him :lol:
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby kwok » 30 May 2016, 22:57

Who me naming someone specific? Never, I'm too much of a coward to do that.

What's the line between protest and insult then? Seems pretty easy to blur an insult with some sort of statement of the bk environment.

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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby MarKr » 30 May 2016, 23:11

It's not really about making a line...he protests and while he's at it he insults too. But if he gets banned without any hint of attempt of explanation or reaction from our side, he'll become sort of a "martyr" and his most probable attitude will be "Yeah, I had the cojones to tell the "truth" and they didn't like it and couldn't take it and so I got banned...". I want to try to explain or at least react to his points and rebut there...hopefully he will understand. If he won't understand or will not want to listen, well the outcome will probably the same as if he got banned right away but at least I gave it a shot.
Whether he in the end listens and understands or not I will be for at least temporal ban for the insults I don't know what Wolf's oppinion will be but I will push for it for sure.
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 May 2016, 02:57

kwok wrote:Never, I'm too much of a coward to do that.


Wondering why...???!!! :)

What makes u so scared of him? :mrgreen:
Are u really frightened of their grin? :twisted:

Or is it because u already realize u r wrong.. and not actually them?
Or because u know u can no longer bravely compete by then?

Or maybe cuz of that u r aware u always lost while they always won?
Does he seem like a smart dragon?

Or that u know he will probably bring some sort of a kraken?
Are u afraid of being beaten?

What exactly is ur concern?!
Let us have a confirm.
Not curious, but who is him? :lol:

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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby kwok » 31 May 2016, 04:04

Not sure if this the place to talk about this, but I really think a lot of these "discussions" are getting out of hand so if this isn't about drawing the line, when will lines be drawn? Even I got into the "devs aren't going to be banning anyways so I'm just gonna say shit" mood once. You pulled me back to civility, but it really wasn't exactly fair that you let me off either. People have blatantly told me similar stories where they've gone "fuckit lets see how far I can get before I'm banned" (no names but it really isn't hard to go back into the histories to see changes in people's tones).

If I could be blatant about what I think of the dev team, it has nothing to do with balance or activity but the amount of grey and lenience allowed. A simple game example is including 1v1 maps in a map pack, in one place devs say "this mod is not for 1v1s" but in another devs will support 1v1s. What this does is let arguments in the context in 1v1s open up so often and devs having to constantly remind people "this mod isn't for 1v1".

Same problems come up for forum rules too, devs will threaten the rare offenders but turn a blind eye to repeats (not jp, as far as I know he was never this uncool, I'm just talking about people in general). Being inconsistent in messages and direction leaves grey areas. Just because most people won't play in that grey zone and cause trouble doesn't mean that it's okay to have. Otherwise it basically undermines the purpose of having messages, whether it be forum rules or balancing directions.

Basically, tldr, the mixed messages coming from devs in general gives people an impression that it'll be okay to cause trouble. It makes sense in not making martyrs of people and trying to talk them down first, but at some point I think it's worth bringing down the hammer in places. It's just to remind people that just because it's a community mod doesn't mean it's a place to do and say whatever you want.

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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby kwok » 31 May 2016, 04:07

@tiger
Sarcasm, tiger. I don't point people out because it'd be hypocritical of me to cause drama and most of the time they know it themselves in their heart. If they suspect I am referring to them, then it is definitely them.
Who is it you think I'm talking about? Do you think I'm in the wrong? Tell me, which person do you think even deserves my distaste? Flatter her/him.

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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 May 2016, 04:23

If they suspect I am referring to them, then it is definitely them.

That's why I said I am not curious to know about whom u exactly meant :P Haha, that sounds funny ^^
But next time.. just don't be so sneaky then... I am not stupid nor somone who is blind at all. Always say it loud instantly as long as u think u dare! :)

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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby kwok » 31 May 2016, 04:26

Sorry did trying to maintain civility and keeping to forum guidelines come across as sneaky to you? Sounds like I make a general claim to people and you took personal credit to it. Is this what you were looking for? Credit for misbehavior?
Maybe I can make a protesting post about it.

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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 May 2016, 04:40

Being "too much of a coward" is what sounded sneaky to me.. and of course not that one of "trying to maintain civility" at all :)

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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 31 May 2016, 14:21

Stop being excited about anything new for this mod, i was excited too that's why i started this thread but from the replies i got you can see the spirit of the current "leadership", they are little pussies afraid that steam will put them in prison for a helmet swastika that you need a magnifier glass to see. We even agreed to pay for the fucking fee and they still dont want to.
First of all - what "new" would you like to see in the mod? New units? There is no need to add something with the only reason being "because it would be new" - if there is a unit that would fill a hole in some doctrine then maybe but otherwise there's really no reson for it.
Second: you said you would be wiling to help. We told you, and community in general, how you can help and your answer is more or less "Screw it! It will take too long, just risk it!". I think that ever since I wrote that post, if you contacted Steam and would do some research, you would have the info by now. But no, it is simply "too much work". Wanna help? Come back with the info. Wolf's got a point in this - you keep repeating how community should be able to contribute but your only contribution so far is what exactely


The new im talking about is steam greenlight not new units. Steam greenlight = new players = less waiting time in the lobby = more donations = more motivation for improving this mod.

Im just a player, i have no reputation, an official voice should contact steam like you or Wolf not a simple player.

maybe they are good, maybe they should be added for a vote (uncheatable with every person saying in the thread if he agrees or not)
How exactely are polls "uncheatable"? There are people out there who have tons of people on their friend list (some of them don't even play BK and some of them only play compstomp) and these people talk and talk and talk and convince the compstompers to come and vote for whatever they are told or some would come and vote simply to get some peace from these "lobbysts". Doesn't seem that fair to me.


That person should become a politician if he can pursue so many people to do something he asks. IMO yea posts based voting system instead of polls is uncheatable since on polls you can make multiple accounts and vote till kingdom come. Yea you can also make multiple accounts and post your vote multiple times but that would look fishy and will be easily spotted as a fake account since it was made yesterday and that has only 1 post that being the vote.

He told me Wolf didnt even wanted to take a look at his changes, nothing, pure avoidance. WHAT KIND OF COMMUNITY MOD IS THIS?
From what you write I guess you, yourself, don't know how to mod or what it takes. The process itself is not that hard but it often requires hours of testing to see if the changes you made work. You also have the game installed and you have the official version + possibly other versions with changes you have made already and are working, then one with changes that are in progress and not working well so far etc. that means every time sitching the game files according to what version you want to start. I already said how time-consuming the modding itself is, now imagine that somebody sends you their version with numerous little changes that are mostly not visible - like really, Hawks tweaked some weapon stats and that is not something you see, you need to play the game for some time to see the impact of the changes (because the game is based on random factors, just one short look at stuff like this won't tell you much).
And as already said, there are Hawk's ideas in the mod already.


Not the official version + other versions for Christ sake, this is not what im referring too. You have a piece of code, you make it public by subjecting it to a vote and if it's 2-1 then you implement it in THE NEXT BETA VERSION, if it works well without screwing the balance than it sticks, if not then it doesn't stick. For example why there is such a big difference between regular inf even semi-elite like rangers and elite units like Fj5, 3 squads of rangers get insta killed by 1 squad of FJ5. My point is there shouldn't be super humans on the battlefield, better accuracy, better weapons, better abilities etc yea but not kevlar armor. That's one example why i support Warhawk's work, because one of his changes was to make all inf more realistic/standardized, you can rely even on engineers as a combat unit when you have nothing else and that's how it should be, even engineers have basic weapon training but ATM they aim like stormtroopers (the star wars ones) and they die like flyes.

Who the fuck made Wolf the decision maker for this mod? The "leader" (in quotations since there is not supposed to be one since its a community mod but still someone has to be the "official voice" of the community) should be the most passionate about this mod
Oh boy...For someone who claims to be around ever since Xalibur's time you surely have short memory. So, a history lesson (as it was explained to me by person who remembers all this): Xalibur started the mod, was the only one who made changes, his team were beta testers (they did no actual coding (modding), Xalibur left and left his team in the charge for time being - mod was in some "public beta" stage or something...and nothing was happening as the dev team didn't want to do anything without Xali's approval and Xali was impossible to contact. Then somebody outside the team started something called "BK Community Patch". Guess who it was? Yes, Wolf. He invested his time into a mod which was practicaly standing on a dead spot but he saw potential and started his unofficial patches which brought some new life to the mod. After some time the old dev team agreed on putting Wolf in charge of the mod. Given the fact that Wolf started his Community patch project and basically brought the mod back to life I wouldn't question his passion for the mod.


I have a pretty good memory, that's not the cause, the cause of this misunderstanding is because this WAS NOT PUBLICLY MENTIONED.

This mod once in top 10 mods of all time for a few good years now its ~#80, only veteran deadly players are still lurking in the lobby raping new players making it almost impossible for the community to grow. It was in top 10 because of the constant updates, now the development is snail like, an update per year won't do much good to the mod and that's because they DON'T ALLOW OTHER PEOPLE TO CONTRIBUTE.
What you say makes no sense...do you really expect that a game that is about ten years old will simply keep it's fame forever? It is not about patches or who contributes. After time people simply get tired of playing the same game all over and over again. I love Mass Effect series and I've made several playthrughs with different characters and explored pretty much everything the game offers. I still consider it one of the best sci-fi RPGs ever but I don't really feel like playing it again any time soon. Perhaps ME is not as moddable and surely modding potential increases interest from the players so another example - do you remember Operation Flashpoint? The first one (not the Dragon rising bullshit that came out few years back)? That game was awesome and had huge modding community...people created new models, mission even whole campaigns, huge multiplayer potential. The game stuck around for a few years but now it is pretty much dead...after time people simply moved to other games, not to mention the sequels (ArmA series). Long story short: games simply fade out after time, some sooner, some later and who are we kidding here the fact alone that game is still being played even after 10 years is quite a feat on its own.


Im not denying everything loses its value over time, that's like 101 marketing knowledge. But why there are still mods on moddb that still kept their popularity created on old games like coh, for example most of the top 30 mods on moddb are created on Mount & Blade: Warband and Medieval II: Total War, 2010 and 2006 games. Why these mods still kept their popularity despise the fact that so many new games and mods are out? Maybe because they have many devs working on the mods constantly updating them?

Also why the fuck they changed the forum? What was wrong with the old one, maybe it was the fact that it had a rep system for every post and Warhawks suggestions had hundreds of thumbs up? Or maybe so that "The Leader" can take full control of the mod by saying he pays for the host and domain. I can pay for the fucking host and domain, everyone can.
Oh yeah, simply skip to conclusions that play in your cards rather than try to find some facts...The old forum was payed by Xalibur, he was unreachable. He had admin rights so it was impossible to change anouncements and stuff. Wolf said it, also as Tiger said - there were problems for people with registrations - sometimes you waited for validation for weeks. One day the old forum simply shut down...we don't know why and we can be only glad that Wolf started the new forum when he did.


Again no public mention of this.

I hope they ban me for my colorful depiction of reality so everyone can see what cowards they are.
If you really need to use these manipulation techniques, use them elsewhere. Nobody in interested in them here.


I never knew i had this ability, thanks for letting me know so i can use it somewhere else, maybe with girls, would that work?

-What is the state of the mod ATM?
Best balance in a long time. Still some things need tweaking and few bugs fixing.


Thanks for the answer.

-Do you still work on it, what changes are you working on?
Yes, currently tunining defensive bonuses for Reg5 (requested by community), making Gammon bombs more effective against soldiers in houses/trenches (requested by community), Luft pios in FHQ should be visible properly (noted by community), TH PIV F1 should be correctly affected by Vet unlock (requested by community), fixing the bug where some tanks are able to move in static mode (pointed at and requested by community), Luft emplaced 88s should no longer have the "unload button" (my mess up from last patch), few new icons added, some unit/building/upgrade describtion corrections.


Thanks for the answer.

- What is the ETA for the next patch?
Can provide no ETA


Thanks for the answer.

-Why is the development snail like?
Sorry, we'll move to Warp speed from on. Like really what would be your ideal development rate? How often should the patches come out? Look at the forum - there are not many suggestions or bug reports these days so what should be the patches patching all the time? And generaly speaking if there is no crucial bug it is better to release one pack of changes than releasing small patches containing 3 changes each.


Well if you have fixed everything crucial then why dont you work on esthetic bugs also? These were never considerd as crucial and i agree but since you say there arent many suggestions or bug reports anymore im pretty sure fixing these will increase the value of the mod because for some people like me visuals are as important as balance or bug fixing.

Examples of bugs:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1106
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1030
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=910
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=245
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=244
- Units like brit arty emplacements and SAS jeep units not visible on the tactical map, this is important for people who use it a lot which im sure most people do.
- Jumbo call in has pershing audio, if there's no official jumbo audio change it to sherman audio.
- A lot of descriptions are wrong, leftovers from vcoh like rifleman squads receiving 30% increase in veterancy from supply yards upgrade
- Manual HE ability still misses, i see no mention about this in your answer about what are you currently working on.

Examples of suggestions:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1116
- Have a minimum "size" of the sandbag wall that can be built, not like it's now, people build half of ingame meter of sandbags and use it as cover for 6 man! This guy has a similar view on the issue viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1117. Not only that they look like concrete walls that require hours of work to look like they look but they also as i said can be build just half a meter of them and used as cover for 6 men. At least when a longer wall is required people will build less of them which will make them look less retarded.

This are just a few i remember from the top of my head, with research i can find a lot more but these are enough for the next patch IMO. You can say well "most of this reported bugs/suggestions are yours that means we should do what YOU want". That's not true, i think my reported bugs/suggestions are pretty serious, they hold weight.

- Why don't you post on other forums asking for help from other passionate coders on things you have a difficult time with so that the development can go faster?
When I need something done and get stuck I ask at different forums how the problem could be solved...usually I get no answer. I don't want to brag but I guess we're at such point in modding that if it is not something fricking complicated we know how to do it without outside help and if don't know how to do it then usually even people outside don't know and then you need to go with the "trial - error" way which is a long process.


Use some kind of work/reward system like money maybe? From the donations, not your own pocket, and as i said i'm willing to donate for things that have a positive impact on the mod.

-Why isn't PASSIONATE players like Warhawks in the dev team?
Doing what exactely? I mean no disrespect towards him but last time I talked to him he had some knowledge of modding but not really as much as I or Wolf. That means that what he can do can we do too and what would take us some time to figure out would take him even longer. And he can share his ideas in the forum where we will read them. Just because someone has yellow nick doesn't mean his oppinion is automatically more valuable.
btw: If passionate = "should be dev" in your book, then I guess you should be dev too, right? You are displaying a lot of passion here with all those "fuck" words.


Doing what? Taking the good parts of his version like the standardized inf and merging it with your version. That's why i liked the old forum because it had a rep system for every post so people would see what opinions/suggestions ARE valuable and which are not.

Im passionate that's true but i im not a dev, im just a more "noisy" supporter. "Fuck" yea is one of my close hearted words. Unless i use it to insult someone which im pretty sure i didnt, if i did my apologize then i think im free to use it as many times as i want, that's freedom of speech right? "Fuck i lost my keys again"

Im not suggesting 2 official versions of BK, what im suggesting is every change should be subject to vote NO MATTER WHO MADE IT. And im not talking about suggestions here, everyone can suggest, im talking about code. Warhawks created changes/code. Why isnt it posted for a vote so that the COMMUNITY can decide what gets implemented and what not?
You see, making a change is not that hard. I dare to say that anyone can learn it within a few days. So if your "system" was on, then basically "suggestion = poll" because if someone suggests that this or that weapon should be stronger, then changing the stats takes a few minutes and if they learn that making the change will get the poll on then they will simply learn to make the changes and every tiny change (weapon stats, units HP etc..) will end up in a poll.


If it was so easy to code, it wouldn't be just you, Wolf and warhawks that wrote code. Can you tell me anyone else who wrote code? Maybe 1% of the players can actually write code. So no there wont be a change/poll epidemic.

Also there are changes that were simply given a red light because they sound cool in theory but in praxis they will mess up the game on a huge scale - e.g. buffing hull and coaxial MGs on tanks. Yeah, sounds cool but right now everybody is used to the fact that you can run infront of tanks with no significant threat (unless they are HE tanks). Do you remember what people said when a Jeep gut MG buffed (after we brought it down after the first OP version)? Axis players were like "OMFG Jeep is OP my infantry gets killed instantly!!!" well, same with WH Bike when it fires at infantry without cover...anyway, can you immagine that every tank MG gets buffed to a level that it is actually effective? On most tanks hull + coaxial + Top MGs...they would shred infantry in seconds, no HE needed. Now you say "well, that's how it should be if you rush tanks with infantry", maybe in reality but can you immagine what a game changer it would be for infantry-based doctrines?


I understand that it would be a huge game changer, Warhawks actually did buffed the hull and coaxial MGs on tanks and i experienced exactly what you're saying, inf becoming pretty much useless against armor and i DON'T AGREE WITH THIS CHANGE (caps to stress out that im not agreeing with every of Warhawks changes, my point is who's ideas are the best that ideas should be implemented, simple as that, thats why a voting system is required). But i like the idea simply because the current sprint with an 11kg+ammo weapon/fire/retreat system is retarded from a realistic point of view. Schreck/bazookas were used from defensive positions, can't at least the inf AT crews be nerfed so that the entire mg system on tanks dont have to be adapted? A simple change like removing the sprint ability on inf AT crews should do the trick.
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Tiger1996
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 May 2016, 16:15

Hmm, looks like that u really want to greenlight BK on Steam so bad.. since u strongly believe it's the ONLY thing that would surprisingly save BK from dying while allowing it to live or last much longer... Of which is something I might disagree with; as I don't really think that it's completely worth it specifically as long as that BK is already popular enough and also currently existing on Steam.. more or less.

Yet anyways, the situation for me shortly looks like the following; as it doesn't really matter to me.. if u guys ever decide to bring BK on Steam, then I would be definitely glad to help as much as ever possible with the fee just as promised, and who knows.. perhaps I can still achieve both things too! I mean that probably unlike I said before btw.. helping with the fee actually doesn't necessarily mean that I won't be able to arrange a tournament at the same time. Not sure though... But it might be only an Afrika tournament then. With winning prizes for sure as well...

However that if we are not going to greenlight, then I will totally focus my investments into making only tournaments when I am back. Meaning for both Afrika and BK by then! But I am afraid we have to decide real quick whether if we are going to bring it on Steam anytime soon or forever not.

Most importantly after all, I guess I have to mention at the end that releasing a new mappack isn't any less kind of a priority in both cases! Yes, BK really needs new maps... It's such a very big deal.. just saying.
Stay cool :)

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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby MarKr » 31 May 2016, 19:40

The new im talking about is steam greenlight not new units. Steam greenlight = new players = less waiting time in the lobby = more donations = more motivation for improving this mod.
Well, that is what you see or assume to happen...for me it is more like:
Steam greenlight = (maybe) new players (and very questionable how many and for how long) = less waiting time in the lobby (depending on how many new players would come and how long they would stay) =/= more donations (statistically maybe, but in praxis not every new player donates, especially if they stick around for a few weeks and then stop playing again) =/= more motivation for improving this mod (I have never asked for any money for modding; to be honest I do it because I nejoy it...actually I enjoy modding more than playing the game because I really suck at it :D ).

Im just a player, i have no reputation, an official voice should contact steam like you or Wolf not a simple player.
And I have said explicitly in the topic to the people who would like to help that we are NOT ASKING THEM TO GET THE MOD ON Steam. The only help requested here from the community was to save us some time and find for us what exactely needs to be done in order to get BK greenlighted....simpy getting the info I described earlier. When we have the information in our hands and we make sure we match all the conditions then of course one of the devs would contact Steam and make officially all that is needed.

Yea you can also make multiple accounts and post your vote multiple times but that would look fishy and will be easily spotted as a fake account since it was made yesterday and that has only 1 post that being the vote.
How is this different from people who come to the forum, create an account, make a single post in a going discussion saying something like "I support what X said." and never come back again? Pretty much same thing even without voting system.

Not the official version + other versions for Christ sake, this is not what im referring too. You have a piece of code, you make it public by subjecting it to a vote and if it's 2-1 then you implement it in THE NEXT BETA VERSION, if it works well without screwing the balance than it sticks, if not then it doesn't stick.
That is not how it works...what you reffer to as "code" in BK is not something like:

Code: Select all

for (i1=0; i1<a_len; i1++)
    for (i2=0; i2<a_len; i2++)
        for (j=0; j<b_len; j++)
            if (some_condition(a[i1], a[i2], b[j]))
                some_processing(a[i1], a[i2], b[j])
that you put somewhere and delete if it doesn't work. What you tak about is more of "modding" where you take a file, see what values are there and MODIFY them to perform in a different way (e.g. you change number of HP of a unit or change damage/accuracy/penetration of a weapon) - here you take a file, make the change and save the file with the new values, you don't actually create anything new. And if you do this then you need to replayce the new file in the game files and then you need to do the stuff with changing between versions if you want to test the changes...and let anyone to simply add their stuff without checking it first is kinda reckless too.
(To be clear here the code I gave above - such coding is possible even in BK and that is the coding in real sense of the word and to be honest it is way more complicated than modding - as far as I know Hawks doesn't know ho to do it, he is modder, not coder(I might be wrong, though from what I know he is not a coder, but maybe he learned how to code stuff too)).

For example why there is such a big difference between regular inf even semi-elite like rangers and elite units like Fj5, 3 squads of rangers get insta killed by 1 squad of FJ5. My point is there shouldn't be super humans on the battlefield, better accuracy, better weapons, better abilities etc yea but not kevlar armor. That's one example why i support Warhawk's work, because one of his changes was to make all inf more realistic/standardized, you can rely even on engineers as a combat unit when you have nothing else and that's how it should be, even engineers have basic weapon training but ATM they aim like stormtroopers (the star wars ones) and they die like flyes.
We don't like rambo infantry either, that's why KCH are no longer in the game and also why I wrote that Reg5's defensive aura isbeing tweaked (that's what makes them so unkillable) but stuff such as performance of engineers is simply matter of point of view...the original thought of BK was that combat units fight, non-combat units do their roles and the role of engineers is simply build stuff, not fight. Yeah they have weapons so they can defend them selves but they are not meant to be part of attack forces. Hawks sees this differently, his point of view is simply different from ours and just as well as you like Hawks' way there are players who support the current way of official version. Since the "polls/votes" or whatever are really not showing what majority of the community wants (reasons already stated), there simply needs to be someone who says "OK, this will be added" and "No, this won't be added". In the case of BK it is Wolf. And it is not an easy job, be sure that for every patch there are people who will say the patch is good and then people who bombard him with PMs about how the mod's fucked up...But I'd say there are more of the possitive feedback so he's not doing bad, I'd say :).

I have a pretty good memory, that's not the cause, the cause of this misunderstanding is because this WAS NOT PUBLICLY MENTIONED.
There have been people asking the same question as you (though they did so in more polite way) and this has been mentioned before...but I understand that things get easily lost in the ammount of texts that are posted here.

Why these mods still kept their popularity despise the fact that so many new games and mods are out? Maybe because they have many devs working on the mods constantly updating them?
How many people are actually in dev teams of those mods? Remember that just because they are listed in some dev/contributor team doesn't mean they still do something - look at how many people are listed in BK dev team and how many of them actually do something? :D Just because something is written somewhere it doesn't mean it's true. Also you say "maybe because...." and that is the thing - you cannot be sure this is the reason and I could come up with dozens of reasons, some might be more likely, some less but you cannot tell the real reason for this thing.

Again no public mention of this.
(the one about old forum)This probably wasn't mentioned, true. But it would have been way better to simply ask "What was the reason for leaving the old forum?" instead of using the "fuck" work and skipping to conclusions that are based on...well...nothing.

I never knew i had this ability, thanks for letting me know so i can use it somewhere else, maybe with girls, would that work?
I doubt it unless you tweak the form a little bit...girls usually don't ban you...they tend to use other ways to prevent you from further talking when you're being rude to them...mostly they slap you or spill a drink in your face...but as I said, tweak it according to situation and if she is...how to say this delicately..."not bright enough" to notice being manipulated, it might work.

@fixing stuff...it is on the list but really it such sort of things that most players don't really care about so the priority of these visual glithes is kinda low.
anyway:
Units like brit arty emplacements and SAS jeep units not visible on the tactical map, this is important for people who use it a lot which im sure most people do.
Don't know how about brit arty, but SAS Jeep should be fixed since last patch along with Tetrarch (CS) which suffered from the same bug.
A lot of descriptions are wrong, leftovers from vcoh like rifleman squads receiving 30% increase in veterancy from supply yards upgrade
I already said above I am working on this...
Manual HE ability still misses, i see no mention about this in your answer about what are you currently working on.
I mentioned in another topic that we don't know what else to do to make it work better. We have an idea though that would change the way it works, a little bit, but could greately improve accuracy of the attack: The ability would target specific unit (similarly to ALRS of Tigers), which would almost certainly improve the accuracy of the shot, the only down side would be that you would be no longer able to simply shoot with the ability to a place where you suspect a camoed unit...but still I believe the pros outhweigh the cons in this.
Jumbo call in has pershing audio, if there's no official jumbo audio change it to sherman audio.
There was no Jumbo in vCoH so there's no official audio, but Sherman voices should be applicable, I guess.

@sandbags: The looks are again low priority but it is about available models and I am unaware of any. No models, no change. Simple as that.
As for "one piece of sandbag provides cover for 6 men" - that is not true. If one man of the squad is behind the sandbag, the squad gets the "green shield" icon but the game assigns bonuses to each entity (soldier) separately so those not actually in the cover don't get the bonus.
That is the reason why some people dislike the "7th man upgrade" of PE. Most cover types in the vCoH were designed for squad of maximum of 6 men. The 7th man usually stands outside the cover and while the 6 men in cover have the bonuses the last one doesn't and e.g. suppression is calculated for the whole squad so the one outside the cover gets supressed faster and once this one is supressed, the whole squad is suppressed too - engine limitation, we can do nothing about it.

You can say well "most of this reported bugs/suggestions are yours that means we should do what YOU want". That's not true, i think my reported bugs/suggestions are pretty serious, they hold weight.
Of course YOU consider them serious, otherwise you wouldn't bother to make topics about them :D. I don't mean to burn you down or anything here but how many other players reacted to these? It only proves that YOU consider them serious but not many other players and so, defacto, we should do hat you want.
Use some kind of work/reward system like money maybe? From the donations, not your own pocket, and as i said i'm willing to donate for things that have a positive impact on the mod.
Not really the way I'd go...modding community has always worked without rewards, simply if you know how to do something or at least have an idea, you share it. So I don't think they simply hold back and wait for offering of money...they don't reply because they don't know either.
Im passionate that's true but i im not a dev, im just a more "noisy" supporter. "Fuck" yea is one of my close hearted words. Unless i use it to insult someone which im pretty sure i didnt, if i did my apologize then i think im free to use it as many times as i want, that's freedom of speech right? "Fuck i lost my keys again"
Even though flaming is generally against forum rules, I don't mind it in cases such as those keys you provided, but direct insult is a different thing and:
...the current "leadership", they are little pussies afraid that...
IS a direct insult.
If it was so easy to code, it wouldn't be just you, Wolf and warhawks that wrote code. Can you tell me anyone else who wrote code? Maybe 1% of the players can actually write code. So no there wont be a change/poll epidemic.
I already explained difference between coding and modding and no, there are not many people who can do the modding and even less of those who can do the coding. But the modding is really not hard to do (unpack files, open it, make the change, save the change, pack the file)...at least the basic stuff such as weapon stats, HP etc. of course there are more complex things that require more indepth understanding. But again - sometimes in order to make one change in the game, you need to edit several files. If you do that, post it and we use it, and someone else posts a different change that uses the same file(s) then you simply need to open the file and manualy "merge" them... lot of work too.
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Jagdpanther
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 31 May 2016, 22:04

I wont answer again to every subject because you will have the same defensive reply and this thread will never end.

I'll just post the summary of my points.

Steam greenlight will be greatly beneficial for this mod IN MY OPINION, even if 50% of the people reached will stop playing after a week as you think. Not just for donations or more players or less waiting time in the lobby but simply because more popularity = better product. That's how it usually works, no one cares about something they never heard of.

That's ultimately what i'm after, making bk the best WW2 RTS the engine can allow it in all categories, balance, bug fixing and realism, for some like me they are equal in importance, visual bug fixing is part of realism, if YOU dont think realism is important which you dont from what i can tell then i guess these visual bugs will never be fixed. See now why i "revolt" against the current leadership? Because i wish realism/visuals would be taken more seriously, i play this mod ONLY because i like how it looks, i dont play it just for the victories like many do and to achieve that they play with lowest settings possible so they can have an advantage over others, for me graphics/realism is the most important factor that keeps me hooked to this mod. Its the best looking WW2 RTS out there despite being 10 years old and BK makes it better but as i said, not enough importance is given to the realism/looks issue which is really painful for me at least. I love the graphics, i love the physics engine, i love to see bodies flying around realistically, i love the explosions, best explosions i've seen in a RTS, i tried for years to fix the lag and i finally managed to fix it, i tried so hard to fix it because lag is in the realism category, if i cant play with 60 fps i dont play at all, i also found a way to get the best antialiasing, nvidia FXAA, you practically see no texture "stairs" (aliasing). It looks PERFECT. That's why i enjoy this mod, not for the wins but because it allows me to feel like a general leading a REAL battle from an eagles view.

Summary of things that i PERSONALLY would like to be fixed/changed. If you wish to take a look at then then i thank you, if not then well i know how real life works, im used with failures, life goes on.

- All visual bugs fixed. The ones that CAN be fixed of course.
- More standardized infantry meaning less of a difference between regular and elite units, especially when dying, i think HP is called the factor in charge of this, i simply hate to see insta wipes of entire squads. There shouldn't be such extreme differences of HP.
- No more silly schreck rushes on tanks by removing the sprint ability.
- No more prototype/experimental/just 1 unit built, im talking about SP of course and make the armor doc spam also heavy tanks like jacksons and pershings not only shermans since the "spam" tactic was used by the allies so why only for medium tanks, why not also for heavy tanks? 110 fuel for a jackson and 140 for a pershing that is too much IMO for a specialized armor doc. US simply does not have good enough AT vs heavy german armor, many agree with this. The brits have the M10 Achilles that costs only 65 fuel and its also faster to get.
- No more force retreat ability, this is the most retarded ability in the game. MAYBE no more tiger shock, i know allies were scared by tigers but that didnt made them crawl like worms, it actually made them better since adrenaline kicked in.
- MAYBE more diversity in the number of members a squad has, only 6v6 squads is pretty unrealistic, maybe make 4/5 men squads also (inf squads not support crews like mgs or mortars or AT inf). Default 5 men panzergrenadiers for PE would be a nice touch.

they have weapons so they can defend them selves but they are not meant to be part of attack forces. Hawks sees this differently, his point of view is simply different from ours and just as well as you like Hawks' way there are players who support the current way of official version


This is why im TRYING to implement some kind of uncheatable democratic system where people can express their opinion on what they like better. How do you know the there are more players that support the official take on this matter vs the people that would like a more standardized HP system. The posts based voting system is the best solution I CAN THINK of, if there is a better one im all for it, my point is: there isnt really a community suggestion power based on the opinions of the majority, that's why i stress again about some kind of voting system where people can debate suggestions. There is only community based bug reporting but not really community based suggestions.

Since the "polls/votes" or whatever are really not showing what majority of the community wants (reasons already stated).


Just give it a try, MAYBE it can work. It was tried before and failed miserably? Because if it did then my bad.

(the one about old forum)This probably wasn't mentioned, true. But it would have been way better to simply ask "What was the reason for leaving the old forum?" instead of using the "fuck" work and skipping to conclusions that are based on...well...nothing.


I used a more "colorful" vocabulary just to attract more attention which i think i succeeded. Because from past experiences if there is not some kind of heat/flaming/little insults well the thread/issue in question will die really quick.

I doubt it unless you tweak the form a little bit...girls usually don't ban you...they tend to use other ways to prevent you from further talking when you're being rude to them...mostly they slap you or spill a drink in your face...but as I said, tweak it according to situation and if she is...how to say this delicately..."not bright enough" to notice being manipulated, it might work.


It was more of a joke the girls thing...

The cover issue, you didnt really need to explain this technical stuff, "even if its half a meter of sandbags wall and 6 men crowded behind for cover, only a few get the cover even if the green shield icon is shown", i get this. I opened a subject about this sandbag issue more like of a "generic" example of all retarded (unrealistic) things that are in the game and that CAN be fixed. Making a minimum required sandbag wall is probably not even possible thanks to the engine limitation, the main idea again is to get your attention on the retarded unrealistic thinks LIKE the sandbags wall that can be done something about. I agree its low priority but again VISUALS MATTER TOO, i wouldn't give 2 minutes of attention to this game/mod if it wasn't a GREAT VISUAL EXPERIENCE.

Coding is not modding, i know this, i didnt express myself correctly my bad. But my opinion is still the same, even if its not as hard as coding, modding is still HARD ENOUGH for most people, i tried many times to open corsix and i stuck my ears in that program.

If for you bugs like this are not high priority then i dont have a choice but to give up on this discussion.

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Armacalic
Posts: 125
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 02:04

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Armacalic » 31 May 2016, 23:40

(Disclaimer, opinions.)

Jagdpanther wrote:I wont answer again to every subject because you will have the same defensive reply and this thread will never end.


Let me get this straigth. Replying to you with the facts is being defensive. Nice, not that this wasn't abundantly clear by now.


Jagdpanther wrote:Steam greenlight will be greatly beneficial...


Clearly didn't read the explanation. Fetch the info regarding the process and requirements for the Steam Greeling and present it. Don't demand they do it over and over again.

Jagdpanther wrote: If YOU dont think realism is important which you dont...


Competitive balance, ever heard of it? There will be a touch of realistic flavor but it's not the total focus, old fella. That's the compromise most people agreed on with this mod after Xalibur.


Jagdpanther wrote:I love the graphics, i love the physics engine, i love to see bodies flying around realistically, i love the explosions, best explosions i've seen in a RTS, i tried for years to fix the lag and i finally managed to fix it, i tried so hard to fix it because lag is in the realism category, if i cant play with 60 fps i dont play at all


Not everyone has a good computer.


Jagdpanther wrote:That's why i enjoy this mod, not for the wins but because it allows me to feel like a general leading a REAL battle from an eagles view.


Not all people share your opinion.


Jagdpanther wrote:- No more prototype/experimental/just 1 unit built, im talking about SP of course and make the armor doc spam also heavy tanks like jacksons and pershings not only shermans since the "spam" tactic was used by the allies so why only for medium tanks, why not also for heavy tanks? 110 fuel for a jackson and 140 for a pershing that is too much IMO for a specialized armor doc.


Why not for heavy tanks? Because US didn't really field those in large numbers, duh. Also, Jackson is not a heavy tank, it's a Tank Destroyer.
Why are the Jackson and Pershing more expensive than the Achilles? One has a bigger and stronger gun that deals more damage, and the other is NOT a Tank Destroyer, but a Heavy-Medium tank.

Jagdpanther wrote:US simply does not have good enough AT vs heavy german armor, many agree with this.


Many also disagree.



Jagdpanther wrote:im TRYING to implement some kind of uncheatable democratic system.


Can't be done with an active community this small, any attempt for you to say you can bring people to vote only pollutes any result you want to achieve since it's likely they'll agree with you without putting much thought into the vote.



Jagdpanther wrote:Just give it a try, MAYBE it can work. It was tried before and failed miserably? Because if it did then my bad.


It's been tried, many hold it's failed. I'm inclined to agree.



Jagdpanther wrote:I used a more "colorful" vocabulary just to attract more attention which i think i succeeded. Because from past experiences if there is not some kind of heat/flaming/little insults well the thread/issue in question will die really quick.


Flies, Honey, Vinegar. You know how the saying goes. In cases like this, not all publicity is good publicity, you're making more of an ass of yourself than you are having people think about what you have to say.




Jagdpanther wrote:again VISUALS MATTER TOO, i wouldn't give 2 minutes of attention to this game/mod if it wasn't a GREAT VISUAL EXPERIENCE.


Again, not everybody agrees.

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MarKr
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Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby MarKr » 01 Jun 2016, 11:58

Steam greenlight will be greatly beneficial for this mod IN MY OPINION, even if 50% of the people reached will stop playing after a week as you think.
OK, I see your point of view. My point of view is that "Steam greenlight MIGHT be beneficial" so I would not be so liberate with the word "greatly". But let's just say our oppinions differ and we have no way of saying who is right.

@realism in the mod: I can uderstand that you are after as much realism as possible but from my position as a developer I started to undestand that in some aspects simply gameplay is more important. I've never said that realism is unimportant in the mod (it has always been one of the aims of the mod) but the fact remains that CoH and therefore BK is a game, RTS and not a war simulator. So for me gameplay is more than realism. In case that players have a suggestion and a supporting argument is realism, then it is OK. But realism as a MAIN argument for some important change is simply unacceptable in the change would breake gamplay.

Just immagine this situation: For realism purposes, US should have pretty much unlimited income of fuel right from the start while Axis should suffer severe penalties in this field. Tiger tanks were quite often not working due to engine breakdowns rather than combat damage - I think it would be possible to make Tigers with random engine damage while moving.
Especially these two changes would be possible to make and would be in line with realism - can you immagine the shitstorm that would follow if such changes were introduced?

@ your preferences of visuals over victories: You see this is another thig - you, yourself, say that most people play for victories and don't care much for the...let's call it "visuals" of the game. Since you call for "community should decide what should be done" then these issues would take very low priority even for most of the community.

- No more prototype/experimental/just 1 unit built, im talking about SP of course and make the armor doc spam also heavy tanks like jacksons and pershings not only shermans since the "spam" tactic was used by the allies so why only for medium tanks, why not also for heavy tanks? 110 fuel for a jackson and 140 for a pershing that is too much IMO for a specialized armor doc. US simply does not have good enough AT vs heavy german armor, many agree with this. The brits have the M10 Achilles that costs only 65 fuel and its also faster to get.
And SP removal is just because it is "unrealistic" or is there any other reason?
How would "spam" tactic work with heavies? YOu would just steamroll Axis if you were able to pop out 5 Pershings faster and cheaper than they would be able to make 2 Panthers. In general "spam tactics" means "producing lots of relatively cheap and weak units - winning by numbers, not strenght" and Pershing is the strongest tank US have so it is not really fit for spamming tactics (well, this is another example where realism and gameplay clash). Also keep in mind (and not just you - this is for most people out there who compare prices) that US have Supply Depot which gives you the chance to generate resources faster than any other faction. So even if your unit X costs more than opponent's unit Y (with comparably same performance), you are able to save resources for your unit faster than than opponent for his, in turn that makes replacing loses for you easier...You have two upgrades that increase your fuel income by +5 (so you don't need to have any fuel points and still get some fuel income) and another upgrade that lowers upkeep for all tanks by 1/3 (= again, generate fuel faster).

How do you know the there are more players that support the official take on this matter vs the people that would like a more standardized HP system.
I didn't say there are more of them, only that there are also those support the other side. And again, it is more complicated than just HP...to be honest HP is the last thing that plays role. More important are weapons and their stats, because if the weapon doesn't hit, it doesn't touch HP at all. So weapon accuracy plays role, then target's modifiers that nerf accuracy (such as cover, armor, "personal" modifiers) and then, if the game calculates a hit, HP plays a role, but again - weapon has some damage, and there are factors that can lower the damage (green cover, "personal" modifiers) so it is not like "This unit has 60HP and this has 40HP so the one with 60 will always win..."

Just give it a try, MAYBE it can work. It was tried before and failed miserably? Because if it did then my bad.
Well, pretty much yes...it has proven that community can rarely agree on anything. Making the line to pass a vote simply "majority" would mean anything over 51% goes. In such a case some jackass who is not satisfied with the poll results will few days later start a new poll and the result will be different (now the fight starts with "but the first poll had different result!"). If you raise the line to...well, that's hard to say...60% still gives you kinda same resluts as "51%" while 75%+ is such high line that anything rarely passes (unless it is some change that nobody minds - but in such case no poll is necessary).
These systems have been tested but never really worked reliably.

I used a more "colorful" vocabulary just to attract more attention which i think i succeeded. Because from past experiences if there is not some kind of heat/flaming/little insults well the thread/issue in question will die really quick.
I try to react to as many posts as possible and needed. The fact that "flaming needs to occur in order to get attention" is unfortunate consequence often of turning a blind eye on those who violate the form rules...which is something that will hopefuly change soon.

It was more of a joke the girls thing...
My answer was meant the same way :D

i get this. I opened a subject about this sandbag issue more like of a "generic" example of all retarded (unrealistic) things that are in the game and that CAN be fixed.
But it works as it should - those not in cover do not get cover bonuses, so what is retarded and unrealistic about it?

Making a minimum required sandbag wall is probably not even possible thanks to the engine limitation,
I've never tried it, maybe it could be achieved somehow but I don't know how. But then what would be the minimal lenght? They are short so you can build them e.g. in streets and get cover where normaly you would get negative cover.

Coding is not modding, i know this, i didnt express myself correctly my bad. But my opinion is still the same, even if its not as hard as coding, modding is still HARD ENOUGH for most people, i tried many times to open corsix and i stuck my ears in that program.
People usually have problems with compressing the files back to .sga - they do it wrong and the game tosses errors at them, but really basic changes are not hard to make. The first changes I made back at time when I was not in Dev team and played BK with 3 friends at dorms were:
Some minor weapon tweaks
Some cost changes
AVRE unable to fire into FoW
And I can remember it took me about two days to figure those out.
BUt the main point thre was that if two or more people work with the same files, you need to merge the changes and it difficult to do if you don't know what and where exactely they changed.

If for you bugs like this are not high priority then i dont have a choice but to give up on this discussion.
Well, this is more than visual bug so the priority is not exactely low...I'm working on it.
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