Why isn't BK on Steam?

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
User avatar
Jagdpanther
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Dec 2014, 03:33
Location: Romania

Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 14 May 2016, 14:18

Why isn't Bk on steam as free downloadable mod? Europe at War which i consider a worse mod than BK is and BK is not? Why?

We need more players! Currently you have to wait a few minutes to start a game and that's in the good hours meaning in the weekends and in the evening, during the week you can wait up to half an hour for a game.

Bk is losing it's glory, it was once mod of the year, then it was in top 10 for a few years and now it's #80.
Image

User avatar
Wolf
Administrator
Posts: 931
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 16:01
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Wolf » 14 May 2016, 15:23

Of course it is losing, as more people play CoH2, more people play other, newer games etc. you don't see more people playing older games than previous years often, its usually only the hardest fans that keep up with unupdated game. Especially with stuff like desync errors, which we pretty much can't fix. And as people may take stuff like Afrika as a plus, it also takes a few players from BK, as you don't see them in the lobby.

Also I am not sure how many players other coh mods have, but its not guaranteed that steam = a lot of players. Yep, we would probably get a spike, but thats not guaranteed long-term. Also look at which position other CoH mods had, and now have...

But one of the most significant reasons on to why BK isn't on steam is that we would need to cleanup BK a lot, especially from some graphic that might not get through steam or would lock off some countries like Germany.
Image

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 840
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 14 May 2016, 15:47

There is no mod for CoH2 which have at least close amount of BK mod audience, in most popular mods like Spearhead or Wikinger you will never start a game unless you invite some friends. Thats true that many veterans abandonded BK, but there are a lot of fresh blood as well.

User avatar
Wolf
Administrator
Posts: 931
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 16:01
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Wolf » 14 May 2016, 16:44

Not only mod, but many players went to play vanilla CoH2, just by quick looking at BK group about 4 out of 5 people plays CoH2 instead of CoH1...
There are also many small mods that these people can play, workshop is full of stuff.
Image

User avatar
Jagdpanther
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Dec 2014, 03:33
Location: Romania

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 14 May 2016, 17:41

Also I am not sure how many players other coh mods have, but its not guaranteed that steam = a lot of players. Yep, we would probably get a spike, but thats not guaranteed long-term.


I think that we will get a huge spike because just search on youtube "europe at war mod" you will see big channels like The Shermanator,EmpireErwinRommel,Raptor that have videos with tens of thousands of views. I think it's because steam since on moddb BK is more popular than EaW. Also look at the recent reviews on steam for EaW, they are very recent meaning it is promotion just by being on steam. Steam is the king for pc games ATM, even for mods.

But one of the most significant reasons on to why BK isn't on steam is that we would need to cleanup BK a lot, especially from some graphic that might not get through steam or would lock off some countries like Germany.


What is so much to clean? i saw no swastikas, the Wehrmacht logo (the cross) is not banned afaik, if it's descriptions that can be easly taken care of. And EaW has more uncleaned shit in it and has managed to pass. Are you 100% sure that steam will verify for banned things or you just think so?

Is is a tax ? Because i can take care of than if it's under 100$
Image

User avatar
Tiger1996
Posts: 3196
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 15:53
Location: I'm from Egypt, but I live in Qatar.
Contact:

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Tiger1996 » 14 May 2016, 18:56

wow, do u see that Wolf? ^^ Yes... U definitely do!
Holy shit; Saul.. I probably have to thank u really for posting this. That's very interesting to see honestly!!
Actually because I have suggested such an idea to Wolf twice before.. through PMs... Titled as "Greenlight" months ago.
Wolf responded me NOT in a nice way considering this matter... Although I even offered him that I would pay this one time tax which is 100$ all alone or at least half the amount of it! Yet, I felt he wasn't excited enough somehow.

As much as I am grateful to Wolf for leading this mod while progressing it that far.. as much as I also keep blaming on him everyday! He is either too lazy or just completely unaware of the huge opportunities in his hands.
Srsly Wolf, sincerely... If I were u.. I would manage to think in a much better way!
Truly now; adding Afrika to Bk perhaps was the only good thing that happened to Bk since some long time.. too unfortunate to hear that Pacific development has stopped though. Hope it will resume at some point... As it's apparently the only remaining way possible to compete with EaW! U need to realize all this.

Anyway.. I do have some great plans to achieve when I am back next June, if Bk won't be 'greenlighted' on Steam hopefully.. then I will invest the money I have into creating a decent tournament instead.. for both Afrika and Bk... Therefore gradually increasing the ratio of my channel subscribers together with Pzblitz and Mr.Nobody channels as well. I will become surely in need of their coordination however...
Not to mention that I will then need Wolf to release the new maps too.

User avatar
Wolf
Administrator
Posts: 931
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 16:01
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Wolf » 14 May 2016, 20:16

JFC tiger don't act like it was your idea or whatever, we know about greenlight pretty much when it started to get mods on it..
Adding afrika may be good thing, but again, afrika lobby != bk lobby.

What is so much to clean? I consulted that back in the days with some teammembers and answer to me was that its kind of decent, but on many things.
I don't care about IF they will verify or that somebody ELSE IS DOING IT, we will not do it against the rules. As to post on steam you also should have permissions (written and signed preferably) from everybody that contributed. And as I am not that long team member I have no idea what do we even have or from who. Also we should also get Xaliburs permission for such a big move. It is a bit less concern as mod would be free, but it still has some rules.

And everything that for game that will probably never be updated anymore from relic and that has bugs as critical as desync.

I am not saying that it will not bring some players short-term, it definitely will, but being on steam alone doesn't mean everything be awesome.
Image

User avatar
Jagdpanther
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Dec 2014, 03:33
Location: Romania

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 14 May 2016, 22:58

What is so much to clean? I consulted that back in the days with some teammembers and answer to me was that its kind of decent, but on many things.
I don't care about IF they will verify or that somebody ELSE IS DOING IT, we will not do it against the rules. As to post on steam you also should have permissions (written and signed preferably) from everybody that contributed. And as I am not that long team member I have no idea what do we even have or from who.


Still didn't get what has to be cleaned and why it can't be done?

I'm not saying to go against the rules, i just dont understand from your post if can be cleaned or not. EaW has more content and they passed so i dont see what's wrong with BK.

Well the contributors afaik are: Xalibur,You and Markr and probably others that i dont know. But i dont think this is a problem, just get the written and signed permissions from the contributors that you can contact, that are still active. If others come along the way im pretty sure they can be added right?

Also we should also get Xaliburs permission for such a big move. It is a bit less concern as mod would be free, but it still has some rules.


Xalibur permission. He hasn't given a sign of life in years, his last activity on http://forums.relicnews.com/ was on 26th Jan 14. Did anyone managed to contact him in the last few years? And even if he'll see it on steam ? Why is that bad, i think it's good IMO. It's simply more promotion.

And everything that for game that will probably never be updated anymore from relic and that has bugs as critical as desync.


Then how did EaW pass with the desync bug or they dont have it?

I am not saying that it will not bring some players short-term, it definitely will, but being on steam alone doesn't mean everything be awesome.


It will certainly be better than now, if such an unpolished game with some retarded changes like EaW has so many positive reviews, imagine what BK would be like.
Image

JimQwilleran
Posts: 1096
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby JimQwilleran » 15 May 2016, 01:07

Jagdpanther wrote:Xalibur permission. He hasn't given a sign of life in years, his last activity on http://forums.relicnews.com/ was on 26th Jan 14. Did anyone managed to contact him in the last few years? And even if he'll see it on steam ? Why is that bad, i think it's good IMO. It's simply more promotion.

Don't want to be rude, but at this one you are not quite right, Jagdpanther. Just because David Bowie died some time ago and he "hasn't given any sign of life", does that mean we can now use anything he made without any permissions?
What if Xalibur fell into coma (just an example), and after 3 years he wakes up and sees that someone made changes to his work, that he had no right to make?
I mean, law is law, dura lex sed lex. I am a fan of Bk just like you, but you can't ignore what conventions and common sense are saying. If steam requires "every single detail" to be checked and right before you can upload your mod there, they apparently might have their reasons. For example court fights over the ownership of certain mods.

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 1865
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby MarKr » 15 May 2016, 01:09

Still didn't get what has to be cleaned and why it can't be done?

I'm not saying to go against the rules, i just dont understand from your post if can be cleaned or not. EaW has more content and they passed so i dont see what's wrong with BK.
I think that the problem is in swastikas...they are on some soldiers and vehicles. Very often they are very small and you won't notice them until you zoom in and even then they are often visible only with very high texture settings. From the top of my head I know that JU87 has the symbol on its tail and I think there is some WH Halftrack that has it in the front or back.

Very often people don't even know about them because they have no time inthe game to zoom in and look for texture details, or they don't even play with graphics settings high enough for the symbols to be even visible but as far as rules (and laws) go, this is no excuse and believe me that there are people who are willing to report not only to steam but to officials and god-knows-where else that in some mod there is some tiny swastika symbol somewhere.
So somebody would need to go through the files check all the textures and if some forbidden symbols are found, replace them or erase them. This is fricking lot of work and would take lots of time.

Well the contributors afaik are: Xalibur,You and Markr and probably others that i dont know. But i dont think this is a problem, just get the written and signed permissions from the contributors that you can contact, that are still active. If others come along the way im pretty sure they can be added right?
Contributors are not only people who work on the mod but anybody whose work has been used in the mod. That is anybody who created any of the models/textures used in the mod (I am pretty sure that many of them were made by people who never participated in the mod creation) also if there is in the mod some part of code or script that somebody created and the mod uses it I think that technicaly these people are considered as contributors too... Many of them are surely gone from the community and getting their permissions will be pretty hard.

Xalibur permission. He hasn't given a sign of life in years, his last activity on http://forums.relicnews.com/ was on 26th Jan 14. Did anyone managed to contact him in the last few years? And even if he'll see it on steam ? Why is that bad, i think it's good IMO. It's simply more promotion.
Xalibur or any other contributor...from the legal point of view they still are "owners of those parts of the mod they contributed with"...there is a term for it which I cannot remember now :/. And if some of them for some reason suddenly decided to make trouble they would be "right to do so" from the legal perspective.
I am not surprised that Wolf hasitates with this. If he did what you ask and some shitstorm happened, it would be his ass on the line...running around courts and dealing with police is neither pleasant nor cheap.

Now you will probably say that nobody would make such a fuss over it...well, nobody with common sense, that much is true. But frankly, people in general are bunch of douchebags so if it were up to me, I wouldn't want to risk it either.
Image

User avatar
Jagdpanther
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Dec 2014, 03:33
Location: Romania

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 15 May 2016, 03:33

I think that the problem is in swastikas...they are on some soldiers and vehicles. Very often they are very small and you won't notice them until you zoom in and even then they are often visible only with very high texture settings. From the top of my head I know that JU87 has the symbol on its tail and I think there is some WH Halftrack that has it in the front or back.

Very often people don't even know about them because they have no time inthe game to zoom in and look for texture details, or they don't even play with graphics settings high enough for the symbols to be even visible but as far as rules (and laws) go, this is no excuse and believe me that there are people who are willing to report not only to steam but to officials and god-knows-where else that in some mod there is some tiny swastika symbol somewhere.
So somebody would need to go through the files check all the textures and if some forbidden symbols are found, replace them or erase them. This is fricking lot of work and would take lots of time.


I'm pretty sure the if you make a thread asking people to search for these things, some of them that are great fans like me and tiger will happily do it. Then a coder swaps them, the majority of the work is finding them.

Contributors are not only people who work on the mod but anybody whose work has been used in the mod. That is anybody who created any of the models/textures used in the mod (I am pretty sure that many of them were made by people who never participated in the mod creation) also if there is in the mod some part of code or script that somebody created and the mod uses it I think that technicaly these people are considered as contributors too... Many of them are surely gone from the community and getting their permissions will be pretty hard.


Do you think EaW got the permissions of all the people who created the skins/textures and found all the contributors of their 3.5gb mod? lets be serious now. EaW has this tag on it, i think that means that you don't have to specify every single person that touched this mod or had his content used.

Image
Image

User avatar
Jagdpanther
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Dec 2014, 03:33
Location: Romania

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 16 May 2016, 00:13

It can be added to the Workshop at least, i see spearhead mod is pretty successful there

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... =333848988
Image

User avatar
Wolf
Administrator
Posts: 931
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 16:01
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Wolf » 16 May 2016, 06:52

That is CoH2.
Image

User avatar
Jagdpanther
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Dec 2014, 03:33
Location: Romania

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 16 May 2016, 13:59

Wolf wrote:That is CoH2.


there is no workshop for coh 1? Sry my bad
Image

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 1865
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby MarKr » 16 May 2016, 16:39

Look, guys. We are not saying a definite NO to the idea but at the moment we are both busy and greenlighting BK will eat a lot of time because many things are simply not known or clear.

I'm pretty sure the if you make a thread asking people to search for these things, some of them that are great fans like me and tiger will happily do it. Then a coder swaps them, the majority of the work is finding them.

If you really want to start then, please, go ahead. Go through the texture files and look for swastika symbols. Make a list of units where the symbols can be found and when you're done, post it here - perhaps making a database of screenshots where the symbol would be visible would be good. So that later when somebody gets tasked with adjusting problematic textures, you could send them the screenshots in RAR and they will see rightaway where the problem is.
But when I say "look for swastika symbols" I mean more like "look for anything that can even distantly resemble it" and not just on vehicles but also soldiers, buildings and weapons - if there is on some weapon some weird squiggle that could be interpretted as "carving of a swastika" you need to spot it and add it to the list.

It would perhaps be good too if you tried to find out what Steam's rules are - perhaps there are other banned WW2 symbols so if you find that out before you start poking through the textures you can then look for everything at once...Thinking of Steam's rules - one of the issues mentioned here was persmissions from contributors so while you're at it you might try to find out what Steam requires in this respect - if they require signed permission from everyone who has ever contributed, I'm affraid this condition is an unbreakable stonewall for us and in that case you wouldn't even need to bother with "cleaning" textures.

So if you are really up for it, we'll be only glad because it would take some work off of our hands ;)
Image

User avatar
Tiger1996
Posts: 3196
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 15:53
Location: I'm from Egypt, but I live in Qatar.
Contact:

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Tiger1996 » 16 May 2016, 20:19

Jagdpanther wrote:I'm pretty sure the if you make a thread asking people to search for these things, some of them that are great fans like me and tiger will happily do it. Then a coder swaps them, the majority of the work is finding them.

Wait, no... I never said that I would happily participate in doing such a thing if I was ever asked to.
I will NOT help out taking the Swastika symbols down! Don't ever get me wrong here, it's definitely not because I believe in them anyhow. As there are lots of different reasons for such a decision;
1) Lack of time - Currently, u know I don't have time for this.. I will be more actively back once again only after 1 month from now... Hopefully around the next 20th of June or something.. and noway before that time.
2) And even if I got the enough time.. yet, I guess I will never do it. As I only said that I can help with the fee... Nothing more or less!
3) The reasons why I won't ever get involved with the "cleaning", are too many;
-First of all, I don't really think it's worth it or even necessary at all.
Here is the Steam Greenlight FAQ:-
https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/abo ... ection=faq
I couldn't find any rules that could be against the Swastika nor even any other form of racist flags btw! Correct me if I am wrong.
Not to mention EaW has actually passed. While their mod is not 100% clean of Nazi symbols... I then don't think it's really a problem. EaW is not alone.. I have already seen several ww2 games on Steam with Nazi flags.
-I believe they consider this one as freedom of opinion and speech.. since it's only a game at the end. Nazism is part of history too!! It's also quite arguable and subjective what is exactly racist or what is not... For example, some people like me would surely consider the Israeli flag as offensive and racism just like Nazi flags. Others may not believe the same on the other hand!
-I personally believe USA was worse than Hitler.. or I wonder if we forgot about Hiroshima and Nagazaki???!!! Anyway.
4) Also, I think it's well known that the Swastika in fact was stolen by Hitler.. as it was mainly a religious symbol related to Buddhism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
MarKr wrote:I think that the problem is in swastikas

So, I don't think so.

Back to Steam greenlight rules, I haven't seen anything about contributors. This word was mentioned only 4 times in a single one point throughout the whole article... Here;
Can more than one steam account be associated with a greenlight submission?

Yes, once you have filled in the basic information for your Greenlight entry, you can add additional Contributors.

1. If you are just creating your item and have entered basic information, click "View item" in the upper-right corner to go to your submission in Greenlight.
2.Then, on your item’s page in Greenlight, under "Owner Controls" in the right-hand column, there is a link to "Add/remove Contributors"
3.Click the link and select anyone from your Steam Friends list to add as contributors.
4.The selected friend(s) will receive an e-mail notifying them of the action and asking them to accept the invitation to be a contributor.
5.Once they accept, they will have the ability to edit links, post announcements, and delete comments.

But I guess this part does have nothing to do with our concern at all. It's totally fine...

This part in return does probably have something to do with our concern:-
How many votes does a game need to get selected?

The specific number of votes doesn't matter as much as relative interest in a game compared with other games in Steam Greenlight—we need customers to help us prioritize which games they want to see made available on Steam.

We're going to be reaching out to developers as we see their games getting traction regardless of whether they have achieved a specific number of votes or are sitting 1st or 2nd place at any given time. We are most interested in finding the games that people want, not requiring them to hit a specific number of votes.

And again as u can see... We are not required to have permissions from anyone ever contributed. Perhaps except from Xalibur... As he is still the owner of this mod! But I don't think he will ever mind to see Bk out there.
Wolf nevertheless is the current dev leader for this game, he has the right to do whatever he wants...

This is the last term that might be some kind of a problem:-
My game is a mod – can I still submit it to Steam Greenlight?

Yes, you can submit your mod to Steam Greenlight, but in order to be launched on Steam you will need to have a full engine license in place for your game. If you have a Source Engine mod, you can learn more here. For other engines you will need to work with them directly.

I am pretty sure Bk isn't belonging to the Source engines somehow. However that I keep wondering about the license thing!

At the end, I don't really care if Bk will ever be available on Steam or not.. but my offer to help with the fee is still in place as long as Wolf has ever decided to proceed... I clearly ask absolutely no privilages as well. But if I ever help with the fee.. I won't be able to arrange a tournament with winning prizes anytime soon.
Also, just keep in mind that we have already got a group of 2K members for Bk on Steam! I mean Bk isn't completely absent on Steam after all...

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 1865
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby MarKr » 16 May 2016, 21:20

As much as I appreciate your initiative in looking through Steam instructions and making an analysis I must ask you not to mention points like these in posts any further:
-I personally believe USA was worse than Hitler.. or I wonder if we forgot about Hiroshima and Nagazaki???!!! Anyway.
...
For example, some people like me would surely consider the Israeli flag as offensive and racism just like Nazi flags. Others may not believe the same on the other hand!
You have right for your opinion and I respect that but forum rules clearly say:
9. No politics.Personal political views don't belong into the Forum, except we start them because we think they are important or we want you to discuss about them. This Forum is primary a gaming forum and not a platform to discuss political oppinions or events.
There is a reason for this - given the nature of such posts, whenever people mention these things (which btw has nothing to do with the game) they always drag the discussion offtopic. So please in the future try to avoid these.

As for this:
I couldn't find any rules that could be against the Swastika nor even any other form of racist flags btw! Correct me if I am wrong.
Even if Steam has no such rule, they for sure need to obey rules in certain countries and as far as I know e.g. Germany has very strict laws about displaying Nazi symbols even in games and movies, again, I am not sure but I think that France is strict about this too. So Steam would probably make the mod unavailable for these countries anyway. That was the point of cleaning the mod - to make it available everywhere.

Anyway still your post contains many "I couldn't find", "I don't think", "I believe" and other phrases that say you don't know for sure and that is why I said in the previous post to the people who would think of cleaning the mod to actually find information first and know for sure. What good would it be if someone spends 40 hours inspecting textures if they find out in the end that the job is not needed because Steam says (insert reason here).

So still, if anybody wants to help with this you are free to do so, but I strongly recommend to find solid information (best would be directly from Steam support) in order to save your nerves and potentially time too ;)
Image

User avatar
Wolf
Administrator
Posts: 931
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 16:01
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Wolf » 16 May 2016, 22:03

To be more specific, yes, it might be possible to get the mod there without the cleanup, but I am pretty sure that I would have to block it for Germany or other countries which list I don't have right now.
The problem with steam is kind of because of Valve often doesn't follow or doesn't directly force some rules and isn't very good at giving out any info alltogether. But I think even workshop has some rules against nazi symbols, but I have seen people breaking these rules and I guess some of them were blocked, as I have seen topics about reports of these mods. But some stay (probably until reported and somebody at valve gives a damn?).
Image

User avatar
Jagdpanther
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Dec 2014, 03:33
Location: Romania

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 17 May 2016, 01:30

MarKr wrote:
As for this:
I couldn't find any rules that could be against the Swastika nor even any other form of racist flags btw! Correct me if I am wrong.
Even if Steam has no such rule, they for sure need to obey rules in certain countries and as far as I know e.g. Germany has very strict laws about displaying Nazi symbols even in games and movies, again, I am not sure but I think that France is strict about this too. So Steam would probably make the mod unavailable for these countries anyway. That was the point of cleaning the mod - to make it available everywhere.


You can test if steam blocks such things, just ask a person from Germany to download EaW.

Anyway still your post contains many "I couldn't find", "I don't think", "I believe" and other phrases that say you don't know for sure and that is why I said in the previous post to the people who would think of cleaning the mod to actually find information first and know for sure. What good would it be if someone spends 40 hours inspecting textures if they find out in the end that the job is not needed because Steam says (insert reason here).


"would probably make the mod unavailable" your words, so you are not sure about the rules either. What is 100% sure is that EaW passed. So why wouldn't BK pass too?

Tiger1996 wrote:Also, just keep in mind that we have already got a group of 2K members for Bk on Steam! I mean Bk isn't completely absent on Steam after all...


Yea imagine the support it would have on Greenlight with that amount of members just on a steam group. BK is more popular than EaW based on their empty lobby, i thought BK is bad but it can be worse. So why WOULDN'T IT PASS?
Image

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 1865
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby MarKr » 17 May 2016, 08:50

"would probably make the mod unavailable" your words, so you are not sure about the rules either. What is 100% sure is that EaW passed. So why wouldn't BK pass too?
Yes, I am not sure at all about pretty much anything at Steam and that is why I recommended to people who would like to help with cleaning the mod to get the information first because without the info the result COULD be tens of hours of someone's work wasted.

I see a difference in approaches we'd like to take here. Wolf said
I don't care that somebody ELSE IS DOING IT, we will not do it against the rules.
clearly stating that IF we're doing it then only by the book, not taking any chances. While your approach is more like "Let's just put it there and see if Steam will block it or not.". I can understand that you would like to see BK at Steam as fast as possible and with as little effort as possible - we all would like that, but you have to realize that Wolf is the team leader and thus has responsibility for the mod and if we just "risk" it, it could bring more harm to the mod than benefits. Yes - I am not sure again and I used "COULD" again but as a team member, or in Wolf's case team leader, you cannot afford the luxury of risking in these kinds of situation.
So instead of risking a ban/block at Steam when or if they find out something is off, isn't it better to find out what Steam's rules are and make sure that the mod follows them? Getting instuctions from Steam will take way less time than cleaning textures and MAYBE they'll say they don't require removing the symbols for any country and in such case one less thing to worry about MAYBE they will say there's 100 things we need to do. But we won't know for sure unless somebody finds out.
Image

User avatar
Tiger1996
Posts: 3196
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 15:53
Location: I'm from Egypt, but I live in Qatar.
Contact:

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Tiger1996 » 29 May 2016, 15:40

Alright, so.. it has actually been quite a while since I have posted anything down here on this forum.

I am hopefully finishing my college exams very soon.. only about 2 weeks remaining ahead. After that; I guess I will be finally back once again to Qatar with lots of interesting activities to my beloved BK, it's getting closer each day... I am keenly waiting for this moment honestly :P

As I would like for now to get back to this topic however, just to say the following...
Doubtlessly, BK was and still the most active mod for CoH out there.. and just like Sukin has stated, there are even absolutely no CoH2 mods that is as active as BK. Moreover, as Jagdpanther mentioned himself.. that BK is in fact more popular than EaW on ModDB, nonetheless.. I wouldn't even dare to claim that EaW is more common than BK on Steam anyhow. BK is much older, and has been long living already.. above all, BK isn't absent on Steam either as I said before.
Speaking of YouTubers such as Shermanator etc, then plz keep in mind that they have posted lots of YT videos for BK with thousands of viewers as well. Maybe not recently.. but at least they definitely did it in the past, yet not long time ago btw.

My whole point shortly is that right now I think BK isn't really in need for any further globalization, publishing, marketing, developing or whatsoever! As it's already well known. I believe all what it needs on the other hand is pretty much nothing except achieving more solid/better community background.

Wondering how exactly this could be ever successfully done?
Leave it to me ^^
It's not any difficult however... And just for everyone to understand, it can't be made by wasting time and money. As it could be only done by investing enough money and time the other way around!

I am not literally saying that I could complete such a task totally alone. Though that I still believe that I wouldn't miserably fail at all even if I was left alone at the end...
But I mean that in order to score any kind of a dramatic change while allowing BK to live even much longer or as long as ever possible, I will then become in need of the coordination of some certain persons. Those certain persons therefore must accept to coordinate with me whenever I get to ask for it! They have to trust.

Instead of paying lots of money out of our pockets just to deliver BK on Steam seeking higher popularity which already exists.. I believe that it would be much better if we would manage to arrange a tournament with real winning prizes for the players gaining way much more attention.. also even while paying much less amount of money! This way we could invest it best.
Just imagine when a "mod" is actually offering money as winning prizes for the hardcore community players!!! Unlike most other games, some people only seek to collect more and more money.
Just be optimistic! Stay tuned...

User avatar
Jagdpanther
Posts: 213
Joined: 15 Dec 2014, 03:33
Location: Romania

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Jagdpanther » 29 May 2016, 18:45

//Warning Everything written bellow are MY OWN THOUGHTS and none of the people mentioned had any previous knowledge of what i'm about to write so don't get the wrong idea that we are in this "revolt" together. If there is someone to be "punished" for "improper" behavior then that's me alone.

Words and words and words used by the "leaders" like defensive smoke grenades.

No shit ass tournament will get this mod out of the nose dive it is currently in. Your only achievement would be to give your money to a veteran player that kicks everybody's ass by playing with lowest graphical settings possible giving him a huge advantage over others since there is no things like foliage or grass and they can see shit better.

And probably ~1000 views on youtube that will be your only fucking achievement.

Stop being excited about anything new for this mod, i was excited too that's why i started this thread but from the replies i got you can see the spirit of the current "leadership", they are little pussies afraid that steam will put them in prison for a helmet swastika that you need a magnifier glass to see. We even agreed to pay for the fucking fee and they still dont want to.

@Tiger1996 dont waste your money on this rotten mod, take your gf to a nice place instead, that would be a much more rewarding way of spending your money.

It was supposed to be a community mod afaik, everyone was supposed to be able to contribute.

I spoke with Warhawks97 thru PM, this guy fucking learned to code and made his own version of the mod since NO DEVS EVER CONSIDERED HIS SUGGESTIONS FROM HIS 2000 POSTS ON THIS FORUM (and a similar number maybe more on the old one), maybe they are good, maybe they should be added for a vote (uncheatable with every person saying in the thread if he agrees or not). He told me Wolf didnt even wanted to take a look at his changes, nothing, pure avoidance. WHAT KIND OF COMMUNITY MOD IS THIS?

Community mod means everyone is able to contribute with code, suggestions etc and not just a handful of people making the decisions. That's what "community mod" means in my book.

Who the fuck made Wolf the decision maker for this mod? The "leader" (in quotations since there is not supposed to be one since its a community mod but still someone has to be the "official voice" of the community) should be the most passionate about this mod and that's Warhawks97, the poor guy wasted half of his life writing fucking 2000 posts on this dead forum, he has the most posts you can check it, then Tiger is right behind him with 1900, you people should be the "leaders" in my humble opinion! Then there is Sukin-kot (SVT) with 700, do you people realize how big of a gap there is???. MarKr and Wolf have 700 and 600 which are the current "leaders" , that's how "passionate" they are about the mod that they post once a month.

This mod once in top 10 mods of all time for a few good years now its ~#80, only veteran deadly players are still lurking in the lobby raping new players making it almost impossible for the community to grow. It was in top 10 because of the constant updates, now the development is snail like, an update per year won't do much good to the mod and that's because they DON'T ALLOW OTHER PEOPLE TO CONTRIBUTE.

Also why the fuck they changed the forum? What was wrong with the old one, maybe it was the fact that it had a rep system for every post and Warhawks suggestions had hundreds of thumbs up? Or maybe so that "The Leader" can take full control of the mod by saying he pays for the host and domain. I can pay for the fucking host and domain, everyone can.

Without steam greenlight this mod will continue to free fall, no stupid tournament will save it. The only thing that can revive this mod is fresh meat, fresh players that can promote it further and make the donate button to be pressed more times. And steam is ATM the king of PC games. It doesnt matter its fucking 10 years old, there are newer games on steam that are shittier than a 10 year old game.

To the LEADERS, im talking directly to you, if you don't have time or the will to give this mod the attention it deserves then have some dignity and leave it on the hands of people that do. I'm not negating your contribution to the mod since Xalibur left BUT it's simply NOT ENOUGH this great mod deserves.

To make myself perfectly clear, yea i'm fully ATTACKING the current leadership, i'm not caring anymore. I hope they ban me for my colorful depiction of reality so everyone can see what cowards they are. This will also help me not waste my time anymore writing on this dead forum.
Image

User avatar
Wolf
Administrator
Posts: 931
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 16:01
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Wolf » 29 May 2016, 19:49

Summary of the above post:
- who has most of the posts should be leader
- old games never become old, desync or no desync doesn't matter, #10 mod should always be #10 for eternity
- steam greenlight is the absolute only superb reason, why there are not 50 games in lobby
- warhawks knows the best, is the best and has the best modification and we never listened (NO DEVS EVER CONSIDERED HIS SUGGESTIONS FROM HIS 2000 POSTS ON THIS FORUM)
- we should have stayed on the old forum (you know, that no-admin, without even being able to change download version and domain deleted one)
Cool.

Now a bit more serious:
- I don't believe that Tiger's idea is right also, I don't think new players would seek prizes.
- No I am not afraid to be put in prison, re read (if you even read it) what MarKr wrote.
- Changing scripts is nothing really hard for anybody who has aleast above average computer skills, so yeah, I have no doubt that warhawks did his own modification (which IF its played, also takes another players from BK). And I am pretty sure many things from Warhawks suggestions were actually implemented / changed.
- "Everyone is able to contribute with code, suggestions etc." ... seems like you haven't been there for the last two years, as thats exactly what was happening. But you cant make EVERY SINGLE FUCKING SUGGESTION or take EVERY CODE that somebody posts or suggests, especially if you have two very different opinions from players. Also, what MarKr wrote "if anybody wants to help with this you are free to do so, but I strongly recommend to find solid information (best would be directly from Steam support) in order to save your nerves and potentially time too", that is something that community CAN do and did you do it? Did somebody else do it? That is something that COMMUNITY can contribute.
- Arguing with posts = leadership doesn't really need a comment.
- Almost the same with MODDB, yep, back when CoH was relatively new, THERE WASN'T CoH2, there wasn't shitload of other games, trends, probably it wasn't even after Indie games growth to the top, before CoH even moved to steam, before unnotified desync, yeah... back then it was good. And most importantly it was something pretty new in CoH, now what? We have most logical units ingame, we have good effects, full command trees... of course there won't be something epic new. And really, coh2 is pretty much our main "competitor", due to similar fanbase.
- Forum was changed because we didn't have control over the old one, so there would still be Download 4.6 version beta download... well no, it would be deleted completely. And no, warhawks didn't have hundreds of thumbs up, and for my "defense" I had a very good thumbs up ratio also, if thats something you consider important...
- Why the hell do you still think, that new players would be interested in the mod JUST BECAUSE IT IS ON STEAM??? And more importantly, that they would stay for more than a week.
- Your only suggestion is to "put it on greenlight" ... you are not the first one, like I answered tiger. MarKr also told you that we are not saying definite NO, but we (or you know... community!) have to do some research first and then some work to actually MAKE IT WORK and then hope that it has atleast some positive effect. Yes we now dont have time to do it and we told you, we told you that you can help.
- "if you don't have time or the will to give this mod the attention it deserves then have some dignity and leave it on the hands of people that do",... honestly? It would be very interesting to give it to Tiger as you suggested because of post number and activity (sorry tiger, I know that you mean it well etc. but yeah), not only you called his latest idea "shit ass" and "stupid", so your new defacto leader would be better I guess? Plus like 75% of the community would probably want to crucify you for this suggestion. But of course you talked to Warhawks, so we all know many Warhawks ideas. A lot of people are actually mad at me because some warhawks suggestions were implemented. But yeah, sure, if somebody has something significant that will help the mod a lot, like solving desync, he will be praised a lot.
- "I hope they ban me for my colorful depiction of reality so everyone can see what cowards they are.", you are practically saying if we ban you, we are wrong, but we can't really do anything, because you think you are right and so that gives you the right to attack whoever you want for whatever you want, but we are the bad guys. Okay... you can attack me, I will "attack" you, my colorful depiction:
"NO DEVS EVER CONSIDERED HIS SUGGESTIONS FROM HIS 2000 POSTS ON THIS FORUM" - is bullshit, plain lie, ask the community, if Warhawks told you otherwise, then he forgot a lot
"The "leader should be the most passionate about this mod and that's Warhawks97, the poor guy wasted half of his life writing fucking 2000 posts on this dead forum" - is one of the most idiotic things I have ever read
"maybe it was the fact that it had a rep system for every post and Warhawks suggestions had hundreds of thumbs up? Or maybe so that "The Leader" can take full control of the mod by saying he pays for the host and domain. I can pay for the fucking host and domain, everyone can." - okay, this one is close to beating the previous

To make myself completely clear, I am attacking you now, as your reality seems to be highly altered by your talk with Warhawks (although I always considered warhawks a good guy) or who knows by what and you are telling us a lot of nonsense.

From my personal experience... a little story. I kind of often go to the lan party with guys that haven't really played coh a lot. I ofcourse suggested, that we should play BK. From the 16 people 8 were willing to play, until the desync. "That happens a lot?", "Thats normal?", "LOL" were pretty much the only I got from them. Yes, they liked more units and bigger tree as opposed to vCoH, but even if I pretty much setup everything for them, you just can't think that NEW people will play that old game, when they have stuff that actually works and is fun. Same with CoH2, yep, there might not be as good mod as BK, but look at how many people play CoH2 and how many CoH1. Do you think that people that play without mods CoH2 will run to play CoH1 with BK? Few might, but you are putting it like STEAM GREENLIGHT AND THERE WILL BE THOUSANDS OF PLAYERS!!! Yes, there will be some players, but from the action point of view you didn't really contribute aswell.
Image

User avatar
Tiger1996
Posts: 3196
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 15:53
Location: I'm from Egypt, but I live in Qatar.
Contact:

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby Tiger1996 » 29 May 2016, 20:39

@Jagdpanther;
First of all, I must say that I am completely surprised by your post, I didn't expect that coming.

I don't think you should be punished for this though.. neither banned or whatever...

I am also not going to defend the devs. Nor I am going to attack them either... As I will be simply replying to your points while also telling the absolute truth in my own perspective.
No shit ass tournament will get this mod out of the nose dive it is currently in. Your only achievement would be to give your money to a veteran player that kicks everybody's ass by playing with lowest graphical settings possible giving him a huge advantage over others since there is no things like foliage or grass and they can see shit better.

And probably ~1000 views on youtube that will be your only fucking achievement.

Stop being excited about anything new for this mod, i was excited too that's why i started this thread but from the replies i got you can see the spirit of the current "leadership", they are little pussies afraid that steam will put them in prison for a helmet swastika that you need a magnifier glass to see. We even agreed to pay for the fucking fee and they still dont want to.

Look, I like how frank you are.. but you just can't see how wrong you are.

Don't be so disappointing, this is definitely not how u could be optimistic!
I strongly believe that a tournament can do much of course.
You shall live, and see it happening yourself.

I am not going to make YT videos for this tournament alone.. as that Mr.Nobody will more likely also participate with his 500 channel subs. I think he is going to be very sufficent specifically when together with me.

Not to mention that I will also make some really good use of the YT channel which is belonging to Pzblitz1, as I believe he won't ever decline my request if I ever asked his support in such a matter. He has 1K subs and more than 1M viewers on his officially recognized channel...
@Tiger1996 dont waste your money on this rotten mod, take your gf to a nice place instead, that would be a much more rewarding way of spending your money.

It was supposed to be a community mod afaik, everyone was supposed to be able to contribute.

I spoke with Warhawks97 thru PM, this guy fucking learned to code and made his own version of the mod since NO DEVS EVER CONSIDERED HIS SUGGESTIONS FROM HIS 2000 POSTS ON THIS FORUM (and a similar number maybe more on the old one), maybe they are good, maybe they should be added for a vote (uncheatable with every person saying in the thread if he agrees or not). He told me Wolf didnt even wanted to take a look at his changes, nothing, pure avoidance. WHAT KIND OF COMMUNITY MOD IS THIS?

Community mod means everyone is able to contribute with code, suggestions etc and not just a handful of people making the decisions. That's what "community mod" means in my book.

Who the fuck made Wolf the decision maker for this mod? The "leader" (in quotations since there is not supposed to be one since its a community mod but still someone has to be the "official voice" of the community) should be the most passionate about this mod and that's Warhawks97, the poor guy wasted half of his life writing fucking 2000 posts on this dead forum, he has the most posts you can check it, then Tiger is right behind him with 1900, you people should be the "leaders" in my humble opinion!

When I first knew about BK, it was ONLY through his videos on YT btw :)
I mean Pzblitz was the one who brought me here, therefore I am here for him.
So, according to my own beliefs.. if there is someone who should truly become the leader of this mod instead of Wolf.. then one word it's definitely Pzblitz1 who is already a dev team member for pretty long time too... Not me, neither Hawks or even anyone else!
I have dealt with Pzblitz1 the most, I know him better. And he never ignored someone...

But also at the same time, why would u want Wolf and MarKr replaced? Don't blame them that much. As I am also grateful to them for sure... We could have never reached this point that far without their efforts.
Believe me, without their commitment, BK could have been dead long ago!

However that still I might agree with u that they probably haven't done their best.. they could have done much more perhaps.
Yet, they didn't say that they don't want BK to become available on Steam as a product... Just that they are not sure whether if it's really worth it or not.

Without steam greenlight this mod will continue to free fall

If u think that BK will live much longer just thanks to making it available on Steam, then I am afraid u r not absolutely right. As u might be completely wrong even! Before taking a decision u must first study the situation very well not to unwillingly waste the money as well as time. U need to look for the best ways in order to achieve the most successfull investment on the other hand!
So, having enough caution is nothing wrong they have done.

Also, I disagree that they have always ignored my ideas.. neither Hawks ideas... Most of the changes implemented on 486 were ideas of Hawks btw.

They have been always listening to our demands.

I am a friend of Hawks after all, I also knew about his own version of the mod long ago. But I would not like to speak further considering this point in public... So, I will just get over it.


No one knows why the old forum has gone, not even Wolf does. The new forum was created for lots of purposes.. since that here anyone can sign in. While this was quite difficult on the old forum due to some registeration issues after Xalibur has left.

So, plz be careful next time...

@Wolf;
It's true that new players will not seek prizes, but my goals are beyond that. Later we speak ;)

JimQwilleran
Posts: 1096
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Why isn't BK on Steam?

Postby JimQwilleran » 29 May 2016, 20:43

Jagdpanther wrote:Who the fuck made Wolf the decision maker for this mod? The "leader" (in quotations since there is not supposed to be one since its a community mod but still someone has to be the "official voice" of the community) should be the most passionate about this mod and that's Warhawks97, the poor guy wasted half of his life writing fucking 2000 posts on this dead forum, he has the most posts you can check it, then Tiger is right behind him with 1900, you people should be the "leaders" in my humble opinion! Then there is Sukin-kot (SVT) with 700, do you people realize how big of a gap there is???.


First you use word "fuck" in every second sentence and then express you "humble opinion"? Take a pick.

I have been a witness of many changes that happened thanks to their suggestions. If you want examples, Tiger's idea to remove 2nd RL and 3rd Bazooka; Hawks reported many bugs, helped fix axis guns, swapping caliope and jumbo was his idea iirc; Sukin made rumble about walking stuka, had AB buffed. These are things that came to my head just right now, If I was to check the forum for actual posts, I could present you dozens of examples how top posting users altered this mod. Even I had one or two contributions :D.

Finally... Quantity =/= Quality

Jagdpanther wrote:Community mod means everyone is able to contribute with code, suggestions etc and not just a handful of people making the decisions. That's what "community mod" means in my book.


"Comunity mod means everyone is able to contribute with code suggestions etc" - that is how it looks like! Are you not permitted to do so?
"not just a handful of people making the decisions" - So who should decide? Who should hold to official files of the game and change them? Point me any system or organisation in the world that doesn't have some sort chief or head that makes the final decisions.

Jagdpanther wrote:This mod once in top 10 mods of all time for a few good years now its ~#80, only veteran deadly players are still lurking in the lobby raping new players making it almost impossible for the community to grow.


Poland was once the biggest country in Europe, now what? Britain used to hold 30% of world, now what? Panzer 1 used to be shining example of unstoppable war machine, now what? Call of Duty 2 used to have hundreds of bustling servers, now what?

Shit's changin. Get over it.

Jagdpanther wrote:To make myself perfectly clear, yea i'm fully ATTACKING the current leadership, i'm not caring anymore. I hope they ban me for my colorful depiction of reality so everyone can see what cowards they are. This will also help me not waste my time anymore writing on this dead forum.

This is stupid. Either they agree with you - so u are right, or they ban you - that means that you still are right but they are oppressive cowards. Of course "change something or I will stop posting/talking with you/kill myself" argument always works...

Jagdpanther wrote:I spoke with Warhawks97 thru PM, this guy fucking learned to code and made his own version of the mod


I am highly concerned if he allowed you to talk about it here. Warhawks is a very nice guy, I would never suspect him of spreading hate around about devs or mod itself.

PS.

"...then I am afraid u r not absolutely right. As u might be completely wrong even!" Haha, this sentence is awesome xD.


Return to “General - CoH1 / BKMOD1”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest