Feedback about balance in 4.9.5

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Hey all, I think everybody played new version enough to make some conclusions about recent balance changes. I noticed a few overperfoming things, gonna write them down here in order to drag devs attention. Also I must say than overall balance became much better, and, what is more important, finally diversity of doc sets in pvp appeared, often there are TH\AB\RE in pvp matches, which before used to be almost worthless ( maybe not because they were totally bad, but simply because other docs like inf and terror were so much better ).

Returning to a minor balance problems....

1) AB airstrikes - its super that they finally work, but they are too cost effective what undermines RAF as Air support doc, strafe run with AP bullets kills every vehicle and inf, vet. lvl doesnt matter, raf claster bombs at the same time do a very small damage to vehicles and high vet. infantry. Same to AT strikes, Thunderbolt just have to throw a bomb aprox near panther and its destroyed, raf rocket run have to be aimed very precisely in order to kill a target. Add here that AB can trade MP for ammo + thunderbolts seems to be more resistant to AA than other planes.

So, increase the costs, 150 ammo for strafe run, 250 ammo for bomb run, 300 ammo for patrool.

2) Reg.5 - its probably the best inf in game now ( after def upgrade ) and in late game when its very hard to kill them the cost effectivness is too good as well, actually, they remind me KCH in some ways.

Rise up reinforcement price from 45 to 49.

3) New luft airstrike - its cool, but the area of effect is way too little, especially in compare with AP strafe run.

Increase the lenght of the run a bit.

One question here, do all planes have the same speed in game? Or its different? Provide me the data if there are difference pls.

4) Firestorm is overpriced, 150 ammo is a fair deal for this ability.

I think thats all for now...

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think everybody played new version enough to make some conclusions about recent balance changes.

Yes, although of being too busy and not having my laptop with me either; I still had the chance to try it out too for a couple of times on the internet caffe.. under fake names though And I was very glad to see all those new players. I never struggled finding a good game anytime btw! Even at random periods...

1) AB airstrikes -

Overall pretty much agreed to increase the prices. Although that the AoE has been nicely tuned.. yet, the AB airstrikes are currently a bit too cost effective I guess!
But keep in mind as well that we still have to pay for one-time an additional 100 ammo for the AP bullets upgrade before first use. Also, this will cause the strafe run ability strike to recharge once the upgrade has finished!
It's also worth mentioning, that if the strafe run would ever be more expensive then we can't forget about the AB FHQ strafe run defensive patrol too. The cost will also have to be increased from 150 to 185 or something!

2) Reg.5 -

Hmm, like really.. u srsly think that increasing the reinforce cost from 45 to 49 would make any noticeable difference??
No, I believe they are just fine after all.

3) New luft airstrike -

Do u realize that it's loaded with AP rounds by default?! Well, I don't mind increasing the length. But then the price has to be significantly increased as well... From 125 to 150 too!

One question here, do all planes have the same speed in game? Or its different? Provide me the data if there are difference pls.

From my side, I can't provide any datas for now since I don't have my PC as u all know.
But I guess it's obviously not the same... Might be wrong though! MarKr could maybe reply u for this at some point.

4) Firestorm is overpriced

Definitely true, however that I would say the best option could be to swap the Stuka with the Firestorm. Stuka shouldn't require 5 CPs but maximum 3... While reducing the Firestorm cost to 175 and not 150.

Anyways, at the end.. I would like to confirm that all these surely aren't critical balance issues anyhow! As I would say that generally everything is currently fine so far.
I mean that even the AB planes for example.. they actually can't deal any decent amount of damage to bunkers as they would only harm the inf units hiding inside without doing a scratch to the Bunker itself somehow! Needless to say too that in fact Vet4 Panthers and Tigers will often survive direct bomb hit.

[Tor]

I agree with sukin.

[MarKr]

2) Reg.5 - its probably the best inf in game now ( after def upgrade ) and in late game when its very hard to kill them the cost effectivness is too good as well, actually, they remind me KCH in some ways.

This caught my attention as I can remember saying that with the new defensive upgrade they might become too hard to kill especially in late game when you gather some Vet and the defensive upgrade applies all the time, because of shitload of arty craters all over the map which provide yellow cover (and thus activate the defensive bonus). I said that the defensive bonus might be applied only when the squad is not moving (because, you know, at that point you defend and thus use defensive bonus) and response was something like "Nah, they will be as bad as now"

Anyway I don't think that reinforce cost increase of only 4MP will make any significant difference...Perhaps longer reinforce time could be applied too, so with heavier casulties it would take longer to get them to full fighting strenght again.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Could be.

[Jagdpanther]

2) Reg.5 - its probably the best inf in game now ( after def upgrade ) and in late game when its very hard to kill them the cost effectivness is too good as well, actually, they remind me KCH in some ways.

This caught my attention as I can remember saying that with the new defensive upgrade they might become too hard to kill especially in late game when you gather some Vet and the defensive upgrade applies all the time, because of shitload of arty craters all over the map which provide yellow cover (and thus activate the defensive bonus). I said that the defensive bonus might be applied only when the squad is not moving (because, you know, at that point you defend and thus use defensive bonus) and response was something like "Nah, they will be as bad as now"

Anyway I don't think that reinforce cost increase of only 4MP will make any significant difference...Perhaps longer reinforce time could be applied too, so with heavier casulties it would take longer to get them to full fighting strenght again.

Why not the bonus should be applied only when the squad is not moving? That makes more sense from a realistic point of view, no matter how good trained they are, no matter how well equipped they are, no matter how much veterancy they have, they are still humans and as far as i can remember the kevlar vest was invented after the war, a frontal attack into an mg or a rain of bullets from many squads of regular "not elite" inf even engineers should massacre anyone. No one can dodge so many bullets. Mass spam of regular inf (not blob) does not really work in this mod, they die too fast vs elite inf, 1 fallschirmjäger squad can kill 3 rifleman squads with around 2 loses. 18 rifles aimed at 6 targets with lets say 30% miss rate since they are regulars, not that well trained and only 2 kills. And this is from long range, from short range 3 rifleman squads are massacred in seconds, 18 rifles aimed at 6 targets vs 6 rifles even smgs aimed at 18 targets and the second wins. And remember, close range, even someone that never fired a gun in their life can hit a target at 10 meters or less like the close combat battles are in bk. I just dont get this math.

[Tor]

F*** realistic point of viev, we want 10x times worse accuracy for mortars? 50x times for arty?
Sherman 76mm should easyly kill tiger-1 with APCR, and cost less, pershing should by like SP.
Panthers should have 2x time worse rear speed than tiger-1, tiger-1 have no armor vs upgraded bazooka.
All infatry die 100x faster, and more and more....

[Jagdpanther]

F*** realistic point of viev, we want 10x times worse accuracy for mortars? 50x times for arty?
Sherman 76mm should easyly kill tiger-1 with APCR, and cost less, pershing should by like SP.
Panthers should have 2x time worse rear speed than tiger-1, tiger-1 have no armor vs upgraded bazooka.
All infatry die 100x faster, and more and more....

Omg you really have some anger in you, just relax a lil bit man, go out once in a while, smell the spring blossom trees, get drunk, smoke a lil weed (in moderation, you are an adult i can trust you can control yourself) have sex with your gf or let out the steam thru you know...the thing we all afraid our parents might catch us (im talking about fapping if you didint get it but you're a smart guy i'm sure you got it the first time)

Anyway, back to the topic

I met people like you in the old forum, when i mentioned the word realistic their replays were similar to yours "the tiger should be able to penetrate tanks from 1km, there would be no base buildings and for sure tanks would not be produced in a barn sized factory, the maps would be as big as in the RUSE game etc" You get my point.

No people, not this kind of realism im talking about, let me give you an example that sums up the kind of realism im talking about, seeing a tiger tank firing it's main gun from an above distance of ~whatever distance it is now in bk with realistic sound, realistic speed, realistic gun smoke effect, realistic dust creating effect from the guns recoil vibration, recoil vibration, realistic skins, realistic sounds, realistic gun turning speed, realistic explosion when kaput. Sounds familiar? That's the BK Tiger tank. It's as realistic as i've seen in a RTS till this day. Coh 2 explosions look like fireworks, pls dont get me started on coh 2 because i dont finish in 1 day whats wrong with it.

ITS A GAME, you can't simulate realistic sized battles without making huge maps and tiny units that become icons when you zoom out. I dont like that kind of realism, it's like you're playing a cardboard game, like hearts of iron, i like to see that mighty tiger (i keep saying tiger but im referring to all the units in the game, i like the tiger more in terms of looks/effects/speed/sounds than other vehicles/tanks.) firing its mighty 88 gun and see the ground shaking, "feel" the recoil vibration. Im saying again no other RTS game/mod has managed simulate better realistic units than coh + bk.

So back to the topic, to see the mighty tiger in action from an above distance that is not too close (vanilla coh) or not too far (RUSE), you need a sweet spot distance that IMO BK nailed it, it's perfect. And because of this, you have limits like map size, gun firing range, combat range etc. BUT THAT'S FINE, i dont care about map size or 1km gun range or where the units came from, they could come from a barn as long as they perform REALISTIC ON THE BATTLEFIELD. COH + BK it's like a "mini battlefield" but with realistic unit behaviors.

Of course nothing is perfect, bk makes no exception, i would like to see better cover system, (in ww2 inf never fought in the open like in coh, bk improved that as much as it was possible by the engine limitations, units die faster in the open than in cover but still never ever a bullet was shot in ww2 in the open, when the enemy was spotted cover was the first thing in the soldier's mind, band of brothers is a tv show i recommend for who's interested in realistic ww2 combat, i remember a clip when ~20 rifleman were ambushed by a mg42 from a window, they instantly run to the nearest form of cover, in bk they get on the ground and just crawl like they are some kind of worms, in reality, the first thing a person without any military training and with half a brain would do is to get the fuk out of that mg's range of fire as fast as possible if there's no cover nearby) , realistic view system like in coh 2 where you cant see over obstacles, etc, you got my point.

Of course there are other unrealistic/retarded things in bk like force retreat, tiger shock (i know inf were terrified of tiger tanks but that didnt made them crawl like worms, it actually made them better soldiers since adrenaline kicked in (see the movie Fury when a 76 Sherman faces a Tiger) hellcats camouflaging in the middle of the roads, instantly building 1 meter of sandbags (i think i even saw people building even half a meter) from nothing in a few seconds and use it to give green cover to 6 men, units teleporting to buildings, i get the science behind this, in ww2 soldiers managed to sneak up behind enemy lines and ambush or sabotage etc but IMO this ability is overused and annoying, i would remove it completely, units like fallschirmjägers that after a few points of veterancy and the defensive upgrade become the beloved KCH's aka rambos aka immortals aka cockroaches (they survive even a nuke blast from what i've read) but this is in MarKr's radar from what we can read in his post so maybe he will fix this hopefully. Rain of bombs falling from the sky? that even existed in ww2? They were released from planes or what's that's the science behind that? I had the same thoughts about butterfly bombs too but after a google research i found out they were actually real, can you imagine that, those germans and their engineering skills , SP (never fired at a german tank, its a myth) and even if it did, the armor doc in bk currently without the SP is useless in late game, why not make the armor doc the like the us actually used their armor, mass spam of shermans, TDs, AT guns, air attacks etc. Currently without the Scott and the SP the armor doc is just like the rest of the us docs, sherman price decrease its only for the weak m4 and not also for better tanks like pershing or jackson. And 1 Jumbo does not improve the situation by much either especially with AT inf aka "sprint/fire/sprint back with a 11 kg Panzerschreck on your back", for christ sake at least remove their sprint ability, Panzerschrecks were used from def positions, the inf never charged like Usain Bolt frontally a tank with 2 mgs on it, even 3 on some tanks with a 11 kg Panzerschreck plus ammo. These are the main things i consider unrealistic currently in bk, im sure i can find others but this post will become double in size.

So yea my dear friend Tor, this is the kind of realism im talking about, not absolute realism because that will be a game like RUSE which i hate, i dont like to see the icon of my tiger i want to see my damn tiger! ^^.

My realism is a "compressed" battlefield, with smaller maps and shorter combat distances, better accuracy for units like mortars and arty since the maps are smaller as well, with units produced in barn sized factories and on the front not on in the fatherland's factories but with realistic combat behavior for both inf and vehicles/tanks without retarded abilities like force retreat by red nazi propaganda flyers coming from the sky or tiger tank shock for gods sake

Sherman 76mm should easyly kill tiger-1 with APCR, and cost less, pershing should by like SP.

Well i never knew these things, i never knew even any sherman can pen a tiger (blame Fury for that ). And if as you said pershing were as good as THE SP (since only 1 was sent to Europe) then there you go, the solution for armor doc, remove that joke of a tank called SP and make the pershing better and more affordable.

Panthers should have 2x time worse rear speed than tiger-1, tiger-1 have no armor vs upgraded bazooka.

I dont think rear speed can be modified thanks to engine limitations but its something minor, something a non ww2 history nerd like us would never observe, but they for sure would observe the red nazi propaganda flyers that makes entire squads run to their mama. Their thoughts: "What the actual fuck did just happened?"

About the tiger, i think that's fixable but its minor as i said, there is worse shit than that like the red flyers of doom. ^^

All infantry die 100x faster

if they make inf die faster in bk i think their only role would be bullet sponges to finish enemy's ammo stocks like the russian communists actually did with their soldiers. My point is, they already die fast except some elite units like reg 5.

[Krieger Blitzer]

units like fallschirmjägers that after a few points of veterancy and the defensive upgrade become the beloved KCH's aka rambos aka immortals aka cockroaches (they survive even a nuke blast from what i've read) but this is in MarKr's radar from what we can read in his post so maybe he will fix this hopefully.

The SAS squads are in fact way much harder to kill in late game.. specifically after both the defensive and the offensive doc unlocks, not to mention that they are 7 men.
I honestly don't like the attitude of nerfing elite Axis inf anymore... That's why I said they are just fine now.

the armor doc in bk currently without the SP is useless in late game, why not make the armor doc the like the us actually used their armor, mass spam of shermans, TDs, AT guns, air attacks etc. Currently without the Scott and the SP the armor doc is just like the rest of the us docs, sherman price decrease its only for the weak m4 and not the better versions like easy eight, until you get to those tanks after their many upgrades needed to unlock them the panthers and tigers are out and they become useless.

I disagree that Armor doc is useless without SP. And on 486, me and Hawks actually managed to improve most of the supply yard upgrades by greatly decreasing all their prices. As it was even called "the supply yard crusade" So, the situation now should be a lot better with Shermans and Jacksons!

And 1 Jumbo does not improve the situation by much either especially with AT inf aka "sprint/fire/sprint back with a 11 kg Panzerschreck on your back", for christ sake at least remove their sprint ability, Panzerschrecks were used from def positions, the inf never charged like Usain Bolt frontally a tank with 2 mgs on it, even 3 on some tanks with a 11 kg Panzerschreck plus ammo.

Actually, I always believed the same.. that disabling the sprint ability once a handheld AT weapon is equipped (whatever PanzerSchrecks, Zookas or even PIATs and RLs) could be considered as a better suggestion than that one of generally reducing all handheld AT weapons range.
However that after all, I wouldn't consider the handheld AT weapons currently in Bk as any kind of an issue anyhow... Since we had lots of arguments regarding this matter in the past not long ago, and some actions were already applied in a response of this.. like removing the possibility to buy an additional 3rd Zooka for the AT teams on inf doc as an example. Also reducing Pzfaust range and adjusting Axis AT teams HP... While recently removing the 2nd RL from 101st squads as well.

Yet at the end, I guess I could still agree with ur points about such sort of realism in RTS games...
And about the Tiger tank, it's actually possible in Bk that a Tiger kills a Sherman from long distance with its mighty 88 just like in reality, using the ALRS ability ^^ Which is one of the strongest factors that made me instantly get in love with Bk btw. Almost all 88s in this game can have similar huge range... Either by using some abilities which is definitely fine or even by default for some others.


Shortly jumping to another subject, I have contacted the devs btw.. as I am glad to mention that after the release of the already planned new mappack... There is going to be a Bk tournament including Afrika too.. with real winning prizes. This time I am going to lead the charge for it when I hopefully get to be back being much more actively available once again next June! I am willing to resume what Kwok has once tried to achieve but unfortunately without success. But this time, I believe it's going to be way much better organized... Same mistakes won't be repeated Until then I guess I will be completely or just totally unavailable at all for the rest of this month.

[Jagdpanther]

units like fallschirmjägers that after a few points of veterancy and the defensive upgrade become the beloved KCH's aka rambos aka immortals aka cockroaches (they survive even a nuke blast from what i've read) but this is in MarKr's radar from what we can read in his post so maybe he will fix this hopefully.

The SAS squads are in fact way much harder to kill in late game.. specifically after both the defensive and the offensive doc unlocks, not to mention that they are 7 men.
I honestly don't like the attitude of nerfing elite Axis inf anymore... That's why I said they are just fine now.

Then nerf the SAS too, no superhuman should walk the battlefield, that's my opinion from a realistic point of view of course

the armor doc in bk currently without the SP is useless in late game, why not make the armor doc the like the us actually used their armor, mass spam of shermans, TDs, AT guns, air attacks etc. Currently without the Scott and the SP the armor doc is just like the rest of the us docs, sherman price decrease its only for the weak m4 and not the better versions like easy eight, until you get to those tanks after their many upgrades needed to unlock them the panthers and tigers are out and they become useless.

I disagree that Armor doc is useless without SP. And on 486, me and Hawks actually managed to improve most of the supply yard upgrades by greatly decreasing all their prices. As it was even called "the supply yard crusade" So, the situation now should be a lot better with Shermans and Jacksons!

The pershing is still shit price/perform ratio, buff them and remove that FAILED EXPERIMENT OF A TANK CALLED SP. Also the Shermans are useless against heavy german armor no matter how many you build and the Jacksons are still underperforming vs elefant or KT for their price with all the supply yard upgrades unlocked. The most efficient docs at killing KTs and elefants are the long tom arty from inf and patrol airstrike from airborne. And you kill them with ease since the chance of killing a KT with long tom is ~%90, patrol airstrike probably 100%. But with armor doc, it takes skills/stress and frustration to keep the Jacksons and SP alive which makes it harder for the SPECIALIZED ANTI TANK doc to kill tanks vs inf docs specialized to kill inf.

I always believed the same.. that disabling the sprint ability once a handheld AT weapon is equipped (whatever PanzerSchrecks, Zookas or even PIATs and RLs) could be considered as a better suggestion than that one of generally reducing all handheld AT weapons range.

Im not sure here if you are referring to the specialized 3/4 men squads that carry 2 handheld AT weapons MEANT to kill only vehicles/tanks or all the inf that can get a handheld AT weapon like volks,grens etc + the specialized AT squads. If it's the second then you misunderstood me, im talking to remove the sprint ability ONLY to the specialized AT 3/4 men inf squads since they deal the most damage and 2 or 3 of them combined with the sprint ability can kill dozens of shermans no matter how many you build with the improved supply yard upgrades.

Yet at the end, I guess I could still agree with ur points about such sort of realism in RTS games...
And about the Tiger tank, it's actually possible in Bk that a Tiger kills a Sherman from long distance with its mighty 88 just like in reality, using the ALRS ability ^^ Which is one of the strongest factors that made me instantly get in love with Bk btw. Almost all 88s in this game can have similar huge range... Either by using some abilities which is definitely fine or even by default for some others.

He's talking about a Sherman killing a Tiger not the other way around.

Sherman 76mm should easyly kill tiger-1 with APCR, and cost less

[MarKr]

I think that there is a very basic problem in the way Xalibur decided to make the difference between Axis and Allies. Axis have more expensive units but also more capable of working on their own and thus with little or sometimes no support at all they can fend off more enemy units. Allies, or maybe US in particular I'd say, is simply "spam" faction - they rely on building lots of relatively weak units but for lower costs and they deploy them fast, so what you lack in strenght of individual units you make up for in numbers...or that's the idea. (And that is why playing Allies is more difficult - commanding more units requires more micro...many people hate this but that is simply the idea for US faction in BK)

Pershing is kinda off this general battle tactics of US - Armor doc is actually a lot about fielding Shermans - you have many wariants available and you have upgrades that increase their toughness, lower their production price as well as production speed - this all supports the "build lots of weaker units for low price" tactics. But Pershing is simply completely off in this - it expensive tank which should be on par with Panthers (probably isn't but still...) so it fits more to the Axis play style. The armor s not all that bad, the gun loses penetration over distance quite fast, but what would you want to do with it? If the armor remains and gun gets boost, will see people going for Pershings and the whole "spam Shermans" thing will be cast aside + as mentioned "strong and expensive units" is not the play style meant for US.

On the other hand I can remember people saying that Pershings actually perform well BUT you must not use them as Panthers - If you field Pershing and support it with 2 or 3 Shermans, you have pretty neat combat group. Many opponents will concentrate on the biggest threat they see - the Pershing, thanks to its armor it can soak up/deflect some hits while Shermans flank (and remember that you DON't need to get behind a tank to score rear hit - even little bit to the side gives you chance, if you shoot directly at the side armor, the rear hit chance is approximately 50:50).
Yes, people will say that this is theory and in praxis it doesn't work that way and you might be right, it is situational but you also need to adjust to your opponent and map and other things...if you know you're on high-resource map, you can expect opponent to field more heavies, so you need more than afore mentioned battle group, also team-mates are significant factor here. People should keep in mind that US cannot be played in the same way as Axis ... or it CAN but with much lower efficiency.

[Tor]

I don't see in pvp this "A lot about fielding Shermans" because only 75mm sherman work good, 76mm just don't want reload gun, feels like JagdTiger.

[MarKr]

Interesting point...it is true that for some reason Sherman's reload time is longer than e.g. PIVs...given the fact that there is the "US should get closer to have better pen. chance" disadvantage, this other disadvantage seems a bit pointless. Is it maybe some historical accuracy thing?

I'll ask Wolf if he knows the reason behind this.

Anyway 75mm Sherman has "only" 1 second shorter reload time...is one second really such a drastic difference when you say that 75mm Shermans are OK but 76mm take forever to reload?

[Tor]

Sherman 75mm work good vs infantry, 76mm no, and both work bad vs vehicles.
Much better combine 75mm with helcat, fire much faster, move faster, faster aim, can hiding.
3 E8 with AP bad vs one panther witout AP, better build one pershing, he eat less ammo and with vet can something.
1 Sec for 76mm good, maybe someone try 76mm again) because today i always see 75mm (quad, scott) with helcat, later 75mm (quad,scott) with pershing.
Historically need give sherman (and pershing) excellent accuracy on the move, they have gyrostabilized gun, pz4, panthers and tigers don't have this.

[Jagdpanther]

I think that there is a very basic problem in the way Xalibur decided to make the difference between Axis and Allies. Axis have more expensive units but also more capable of working on their own and thus with little or sometimes no support at all they can fend off more enemy units. Allies, or maybe US in particular I'd say, is simply "spam" faction - they rely on building lots of relatively weak units but for lower costs and they deploy them fast, so what you lack in strenght of individual units you make up for in numbers...or that's the idea. (And that is why playing Allies is more difficult - commanding more units requires more micro...many people hate this but that is simply the idea for US faction in BK)

Axis doc of few but bigger, heavier and more powerful and the US doc of many but less bigger, heavier and more powerful is actually historical accurate aka realistic so i dont think this is a problem.

Pershing is kinda off this general battle tactics of US - Armor doc is actually a lot about fielding Shermans - you have many wariants available and you have upgrades that increase their toughness, lower their production price as well as production speed - this all supports the "build lots of weaker units for low price" tactics. But Pershing is simply completely off in this - it expensive tank which should be on par with Panthers (probably isn't but still...) so it fits more to the Axis play style. The armor s not all that bad, the gun loses penetration over distance quite fast, but what would you want to do with it? If the armor remains and gun gets boost, will see people going for Pershings and the whole "spam Shermans" thing will be cast aside + as mentioned "strong and expensive units" is not the play style meant for US.

"build lots of weaker units for low price" works fine in early to mid game even when panthers and tigers show up but what happens when KTs, elefants, Jagdpanthers, jagdtigers roll out, your only chance a killing those things is with a lot of skill not losing the SP, most of the times when i played when the allies lose the SP they quit its gg but when axis loses one heavy, they just make another one and another till they have fuel and without good US AT its very easy for the axis to push even with one tiger/panther left (since the rest of the heavies lets say were killed by long tom or air patrol), cap the ammo so the inf docs cant use their only 2 abilities to kill german heavies and finally when they manage to gather enough ammo and kills that tiger/panther, another 2 are coming and at that point gg. In the rare cases when a game continues after the SP is lost, the armor doc player scratches his head thinking what to do next since all tanks he sent were destroyed instantly by german heavies. When i said buff the pershings i didnt meant better gun or armor, i meant make them less expensive so they can be "spammed" a bit more than 1 or 2 like i see in 3v3s currently while axis has a ton of heavies in late game, especially panthers since its a bad tactic to invest in the KT when inf docs are in game and plenty of ammo, long tom or air patrol has a ~90% chance at killing it so its better to "spam" panthers so in fact in late game axis becomes the "spam" faction and US becomes ONE BUT HEAVY tank faction. As you said the pershing isnt on par with the panther but it costs only 15 fuel less and the supply yard upgrades doesnt help by much. US Doc needs "build lots of weaker units for low price" tactic also in late game not just early-mid game because TDs and shermans are just not enough once you lose the SP and the pershings as i said are too expensive for the price/perform ratio they offer, not to mention that it can be penetrated from the front easily while the panthers have a HUGE advantage with their slopped armor, like 60% of the US AT shots are deflected by the slopped armor and its a fast tank, it can be easily turned with the front of the shooter in seconds.

Also add the Pershing ace since its not that much better than a regular pershing.

So my doc would be M4A3 < Pershing with lowered price (instead of Hellcat and no more CP activation for the hellcat since its similar with the m10 and the m10 does not need activation) < Pershing Ace < Super Pershing.

And if this makes the doc too powerful remove the retarded ability of huge tanks like Hellcats and M10s to cammo or remove the SP and decrease the prices of the TDs and pershings to be spammed efficiently in late game and if its still too powerfull besides removing cammo also tweak the price of the regular pershings to a balanced level etc.

On the other hand I can remember people saying that Pershings actually perform well BUT you must not use them as Panthers - If you field Pershing and support it with 2 or 3 Shermans, you have pretty neat combat group. Many opponents will concentrate on the biggest threat they see - the Pershing, thanks to its armor it can soak up/deflect some hits while Shermans flank (and remember that you DON't need to get behind a tank to score rear hit - even little bit to the side gives you chance, if you shoot directly at the side armor, the rear hit chance is approximately 50:50).
Yes, people will say that this is theory and in praxis it doesn't work that way and you might be right, it is situational but you also need to adjust to your opponent and map and other things...if you know you're on high-resource map, you can expect opponent to field more heavies, so you need more than afore mentioned battle group, also team-mates are significant factor here. People should keep in mind that US cannot be played in the same way as Axis ... or it CAN but with much lower efficiency.

Yes as you said what happens when axis field more and better tanks like KTs on the field, im not sure but 76 shermans cant pen a KT even from behind. Of course mates are important, as i said its easier to kill german heavies with US inf docs than with the Armor Doc. The Brits balance the games a lot thanks to their powerful 17 pounder either in cammo, emplacements or mounted on M10's. But what happens when the allied team chooses only US, you have to be very skilled to win a game vs axis particularly in 2v2's when 1 players takes armor. IMO armor is the weakest doc ATM.

[kwok]

AP rounds on shermans will do the trick. The trick to killing KT's and heavies in general is to use abilities not units. Most of the time the heavies are slow, making it easy to single them out. Once you can take out the supporting elements, you use high-crit abilities to disable them and then long range weapons to finish them (like lots of arty, sticky bombs, air strikes, etc.) If you want the vet, disable, and drive past the turret. KT's have low turn rates, Elefant's don't even have a turret, etc. It takes more micro, but that's just how Allies are designed.

That's why Allies gets so many OP off-map options relative to Axis, because the micro it takes to get things done is a lot more than Axis. It's tradeoffs.
Armor isn't the weakest, imo. If you ever seen players named stoklomovi or warhawks play armor, you'll understand the heavy heavy spam nature of armor doc that can be really relentless. My suggestion is to rush and improve fuel points, get supply yard upgrades, GET THE FAST BUILD BUFF IN THE TECH TREE, upgrade your tank depot, and you'll be pumping out more shermans than the opponent can handle. Even if they 76 sherman/e8 has a longer reload, if you can get 2-4 shots for every 1 that the enemy takes, you're going to be trading really efficiently. If you give the shermans sandbags, most of the time you'll come way with trading another wave of shots cuz you can soak up that 1 hit and get another volley of 76 fire plus any hellcats, jackson, pershings you want to throw in your mix.

[Krieger Blitzer]

So, back to this old topic once again... I would like to give a further feedback regarding balance.. or most likely I would like to just give a final feedback.

First of all, really few bugs need to be fixed.. such as sometimes moving tanks while in staionary position mode as well as removing the emplaced 88 decrew button, Also F1 should recieve Vet after unlock.

#Greatly increasing the prices of AB airstrikes except the Strafing run, as it would be fine if it just stays at 125 ammo as it is;
-Bombing run from 200 to 250.
-Air patrol from 275 to 300.
-FHQ Strafe run air patrol from 150 to 200.
Note:- AB has supply drops, so.. no worries.

#Slightly tuning or nerfing the Def bonus for Reg5.

#Stuka strafing run airstrike should have wider or longer AOE, just like the AB strafe run.. but an increased cost in return, from 125 to 160. Since it's equiped with AP by default or 37mm cannons I mean...

#Cheaper Firestorm, from 200 to 175 ammo.

#100 less HP for the M36. Not the M36 B1! It differs a lot.

#New maps, mappack v2.

That's all I think.. which is not much obviously; because... BK is almost already perfect currently

[Paso95]

First of all, really few bugs need to be fixed.. such as sometimes moving tanks while in staionary position mode as well as removing the emplaced 88 decrew button, Also F1 should recieve Vet after unlock.

And also (if it is possible to be fixed) the bug of pak 36 described here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1197
Thx

[Krieger Blitzer]

So, back to this old topic once again... I would like to give a further feedback regarding balance.. or most likely I would like to just give a final feedback.

First of all, really few bugs need to be fixed.. such as sometimes moving tanks while in staionary position mode as well as removing the emplaced 88 decrew button, Also F1 should recieve Vet after unlock.

#Greatly increasing the prices of AB airstrikes except the Strafing run, as it would be fine if it just stays at 125 ammo as it is;
-Bombing run from 200 to 250.
-Air patrol from 275 to 300.
-FHQ Strafe run air patrol from 150 to 200.
Note:- AB has supply drops, so.. no worries.

#Slightly tuning or nerfing the Def bonus for Reg5.

#Stuka strafing run airstrike should have wider or longer AOE, just like the AB strafe run.. but an increased cost in return, from 125 to 160. Since it's equiped with AP by default or 37mm cannons I mean...

#Cheaper Firestorm, from 200 to 175 ammo.

#100 less HP for the M36. Not the M36 B1! It differs a lot.

#New maps, mappack v2.

That's all I think.. which is not much obviously; because... BK is almost already perfect currently

Back once again to this topic... Add to the list;
-PE officer squad is unable to retreat to the flag.
-Crusader AA and US Quad half-truck are absolutely over performing specifically against Henschel air patrol planes.
-It would be AWESOME if we get to convert ALL the single-shot HE rounds to timed HE system!
-{I think I mentioned this on another topic} But again, CW shouldn't be able to build 17p emplacements as default or before picking any doctrine. This way you can currently build 17p emplacements then choose RAF doc afterwards!
-Correcting some unit descriptions and hotkeys if possible.

[Akrean]

my 5 cents on balancing:
- as mentioned reg5 evasion/bullet dodge too strong (nothing wrong with it if they stay in cover, but should be disabled when moving, as they are currently uber-reaper units)
- no sprint/shorter sprint for at squads (should be considered like a heavy weapon imho)
- sas paratroopers either too expensive or too weak (give them all upgrades for the other comandos and they are fine - maybe remove the 2 crates and make upgrades from them)
- us small pack canister shell too weak/too expensive when compared to the german 37mm pak he shells, as the he shells are active for multiple shots and shred infantry with ease, while the canister shell is just a single shot, that requires the enemies to stand relatively close to the pak in order to do sufficient damage

otherwise almost starcraft-like balance equilibrium *thumbs up*

bugs/fails:
- f1 buildable in inf only
- friendly tanks tend to crush setup mortars/mgs (especially heavy mortars)
- sometimes hautsturmfuhrer can call in ss-squad while in building/transport sometimes not
- rotate ability of mgs causes the mg to be dismantled and set up again
- some inf (pios/re sappers) is missing the hold position ability (a really important feature)
- some units have higer attack range than target aquisition range (e.g. brummbar)
- sometimes one has to walk/drive directly on top of hidden units in cover (snipers, recon) before seeing them, maybe increase either the range that causes them to become visible or cause them to stay longer visible after a shot
- when infantry is hiding in a building, units can't attack it unless the hidden unit can be spotted (especially anoying when dealing with hqs with at-infantry inside, as the vehicles ordered to attack drive into their suicide)
- sometimes toggle abilities get messed up when recrewing a decrewed weapon (se heavy mortars airburst ammo, 88 he shells)
- when we officer is inside stormtrooper sdkfz you can only recruit 2 instead of 4 different squads (unsure wich 2)

questions:
- why did you remove the ability to order emplacements to attack a specific target? i often bite in my keyboard when the 20mm flak tries to kill the sherman but happily ignores all the infantry around it

suggestions:
- ability to kill the last man on a pak/or to recrew the pak with a fresh squad when only one man is standing there
- hold position for vehicles/tanks, as they tend to run off when given an attack order
- remove lower left ability of blitzkrieg doctrine, better add something that makes it easier to repair the tanks, e.g. advanced repairs or something like the famo (http://www.moddb.com/mods/coheastern-fr ... o#imagebox, https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Bun ... z._9-1.jpg)
- give all commander trees one extra point, so that once you have researched everything, you still get the green +x xp messages (they are a wonderful aid when firing blind)
- when an ai controlled cw truck stands around for x seconds and is not set up, search for another post to setup (should prevent cw ai from failing, while some lorry is not set up)
- give all sandbags, barbed wire, tank barriers the ability to be removed via [del] by their owner (same as with cw wire already possible)
- ability to disable the flamethrower in squads (they are fine when fighting open vehicles or buildings, but in close combat they tend to kill the own squad faster than any enemy could - especially true for re sappers)

convenience:
- adjust the order in which units attack other units, e.g. cause the mg to shoot at near units with priority, keep infantry from ignoring pios with flamethrowers while other enemy infantry is nearby, cause mortar(-trucks) to shoot at enemy mortars with high priority (especially true for heavy mortars, as their attack area ability is expensive - 50 mun)
- something that prevents tanks from driving backwards to the front and not driving backwards back (e.g. limit the angle the tank is able to turn)

sry for the long post

[Krieger Blitzer]

It's nice to see someone newly registered as somebody who is interested with introducing such lists... I would say some points are very valuable actually, while else others are nothing really of importance.. however that there is no need to apologize for the long post; since it's always very good to see such a kind of texts

[Akrean]

thank you tiger - could you please elaborte more?

ahh ... another annoying fail:
when ap burst is activated mgs tend to shoot infantry instead of vehicles - maybe this should be fixed by allowing only automatic fire on vehicles (same way tank destroyers deal with infantry) during this abilities uptime

combined with the inability to order mg-nests to target a specific enemy, this is ability is often just a waste of ammunition

as for the reg5, maybe it is enough to remove their panzershrek. With it, they are good against vehicles/tanks and infantry, making them hard to counter (leaving only snipers/mortars/arty). Without, it would be easier to counter them with quads/crocs/recces/crusaders



during play i also had another idea (not sure if it is possible to implement):
bring back the knights cross holders -- no not as the old ubermensch reapers, but as bodyguard for the wehr officer

I'd suggest to give the wehr officer an additional upgrade to his mp40
if equipped for lets say 600mp the officer gains an stg44 and a bodyguard of 6 kch with stg44, but looses his abilities (but still giving his aura), gaining new abilities like inspiring nearby infantry etc, thus turning him from a support unit into a squad capable to lead and conduct infantry assaults

[MarKr]

questions:
- why did you remove the ability to order emplacements to attack a specific target? i often bite in my keyboard when the 20mm flak tries to kill the sherman but happily ignores all the infantry around it

To be honest many people say that this ability has been removed but I cannot remembet it actually ever being in the game. The problem is in game mechanics - technically speaking emplacements are buildings in which are stationed weapon teams (MG, Mortar, AT gun) similarly to situations when you send an inantry squad into an empty house. However when infantry is in a house you can click the house, select the team inside and assign them a specific target, however emplacements don't have the option to select the team stationed inside and so, again technically speaking, when you tell to an emplacement to shoot at something, you are giving an order to the building (which has no weapons) but not to the weapon team inside.
The only thing that can be done is to set targetting priorities to the weapon that the team inside is using, that way it will choose targets according to their target type. This is not flawless either...e.g. most of infantry squads share same target type no matter if those are Riflemen, AT squad or Pios with Flamethrower so it will simply target the first squad that comes to range, even though e.g. flamethrower might be the biggest threat to it.
Simply - the engine has its limits.

[Krieger Blitzer]

To be honest many people say that this ability has been removed but I cannot remembet it actually ever being in the game. The problem is in game mechanics - technically speaking emplacements are buildings in which are stationed weapon teams (MG, Mortar, AT gun) similarly to situations when you send an inantry squad into an empty house. However when infantry is in a house you can click the house, select the team inside and assign them a specific target, however emplacements don't have the option to select the team stationed inside and so, again technically speaking, when you tell to an emplacement to shoot at something, you are giving an order to the building (which has no weapons) but not to the weapon team inside.
The only thing that can be done is to set targetting priorities to the weapon that the team inside is using, that way it will choose targets according to their target type. This is not flawless either...e.g. most of infantry squads share same target type no matter if those are Riflemen, AT squad or Pios with Flamethrower so it will simply target the first squad that comes to range, even though e.g. flamethrower might be the biggest threat to it.
Simply - the engine has its limits.

Even though, i am pretty sure you can actually order AT gun emplacements to shoot specific targets... Based on your own desire.. freely!

[MarKr]

I tried that not that long ago with 17pounder and US 76mm emplacements...there were two enemy tanks within range and I could click like crazy to either one and they still kept shooting wherever they wanted...