BETA 5.27 AP accuracy vs inf and AT guns

[kwok]

Gameplay issues:
I think the way this change got implemented is shit afterall. Recently i had a match during which we managed to break the enemie defenses. As i tried to kill the stuff like howitzers and Nebelwerfers behind the enemie lines with my tanks after breakthrough, i just couldnt hit any of them. My ammo was so far expanded by previous use of arty and HE rounds and also on cooldown. It ended up with nebelwerfer almost escaping.

Or instances when the target survived one HE shot, what to do then? Waiting 30 seconds to fire HE again?

Also one tactic i and others use is to use M10 in flank speed mode when there is an opportunity to quickly hunt down nebelwerfers and other artillery equipment when seeing a breach in enemie defense. These brave guns sometimes brought back the team into the game and restoring balance. That wont be possible anymore which is fucking lame and dump. Player skills gets punished for no reason while noobs being protected by that new system.

Here's how I interpret the situation. You used a TANK hunter to attack an ARTILLERY piece and expected it to work as it always did. Now it doesn't. Frankly, I consider this change to be a success. Find me where in the US doctrines and manuals did they recommend to utilize m10's on solo-deep-infiltration missions to neutralize artillery batteries and maybe I'll concede.

And then i had a match with two shermans attacking an AT gun from two sides, but i had only ammo to give HE to one of them. The one with HE got its main gun damaged and had to retreat, the other, perfeclty flanking, didnt hit the gun and gunner got killed in the battle before. My only chance was to drive so close to the AT gun that the hull MG could kill the crew. But it took so long that the flanked AT gun actually turned arround, just to be killed luckily a second before shooting.

So what you're telling me is that you had a force lacking the proper equipment to attack the specific counter unit and expected to win? Sounds more like super-aim AP guns are the noob protection system here.... Get HE shells or get wrecked by your counter. Your decision making has become so perverted with such nonsense system. It's like you're one of the players who complain about AA units not dying to air strikes, or AT BOYs finally killing vehicles. Like.... did you expect the ANTI-TANK gun to not do its job in ANTI-TANKing?

Noob Protection System
In a reference to world of warships it happens that even when your enemie exposed itself perfectly so that he would die in a devastating strike in one salvo by hitting the citadell of the ship, he doesnt die because the AP shells either hit the superstructure or having overpenetrations and thus dealing just little damage. Essentially, players that played bad or did a deadly mistake get away simply due to the RNG and spread of your shots even though the aim was perfectly from close range. This is considered as "noob protection system of Wows" among its community.

Now we have gotten a noob protection system in BK. When HE is on cooldown or just not available due to being on low ammo (eg playing low ammo maps) idiots will always have their badly placed AT guns, howitzers and nebelwerfers protected because its not possible to hit them anymore.

With this logic, HP is a "noob protection system". In WoW it's basically an FPS... aiming is a part of the "skill" in the game. The noob protection is when skill aspect gets nerfed. CoH is a STRATEGY game... equipment selection is a part of strategy. Sounds more like YOU need to stop being a noob and learn how to better plan your units and stop assuming you have infinite resources and deserve every opportunity to win at every moment.

Units with AP rounds only available:
Or when units that have nothing else but AP (early churchill MKIV, M10, Jagdpanther and german TD in general) cant hit a stupid howitzer unit or AT gun anymore. Thats just garbage.

Yeah, it also sucks that K98's can't kill halftracks and armored cars. If a player decides to unskillfully be at point blank range to my guns, I should be able to kill the drivers and gunners. Thats just garbage.

Alternatives:
I think AT guns doing fine with AP by default and high rof now. That change was not needed.

TD´s have sometimes a modifier applied that makes them harder to hit after they fired from ambush.
We can add this modifier to AT guns as well. After the shot they would be much harder to hit for like the next 10 seconds, allowing them to fire a bunch of shots before getting hit.

Or ambush gun shots in general apply debuffs on enemie vehicles. Like the crew is shocked by the initial shot, making quickly but bad aimed return shots. Thats something i would wish every ambush would cause.


In any way, we have to get a better system with temporarily buffs for AT guns or debuffs on vehicles. This entire system was not thought to an end and will likely end up in a huge shit storm when going live.

I'm ready for that shit storm.

[Warhawks97]

^got a replay for this?

Wald

one was that thing at cidar. I tried to hit that 210 nebelwerfer and didnt hit. I think i even said that in discord because it pissed me off.

Fact is that i often made some M10 runs to hit nebelwerfer and howitzers in the backline. Try this with a 5% base accuracy now.....

Yes, it is the sort of combined arms that lacks an effective way of dealing with weapon crews.

My holly shit. How stupid can things be.... you made a breach into the enemie lines WITH COMBINED ARMS!::::;;::!!!!!

And then you rush your tanks in to kill some stuff but they cant because they couldnt find any suitable target. Only some stupid neblers, AT guns that are facing at the wrong direction and Howitzers... too bad, nothing there to kill. Tanks retreat, Howitzers still alive. Sorry, these things have magic armor. My barrel touched the howitzer but couldnt hit.



Dude, this is sooo bullshit. When i manage to flank stuff and getting it from behind etc, then i did use proper tactics, simple as that. Being unable to hit is pure noob protection at this point.

And idk if you noticed that, but it happens during games, esspecially with low ressources, that even throwing grenades (esspecially german once) will deplete your income.

Imagine a standard attack. Opened with some arty (50-160 ammo), using inf that uses abilties a few times like nades (easily 50 ammo or more), weapon upgrades on inf (50-100 ammo), a tank with ammo upgrades and other upgrades like skirts (50-85 ammo or more) that uses 1-2 HE rounds during this event against inf and weapon crews (25-75 ammo). That can deplete your ammo stock, esspecially when it is just arround 50 or less). So you made it through the lines, the inf has to retreat after it did the job, your tank advances, ammo is damn low, HE on cooldown and you are so happy that you can now cause some trouble against some backline units. BUT: "Nope" *mehhep sound* "Your are not allowed to hit this unit with your AP ammo, pls come back later. We dont care a shit that you managed to point the barrel of the tank literally against this howitzers. This is BK, we hate good players!" Just Fuck off. But who am I. Its you who will earn the shit storm when this goes live and people start realize that they will never hit anything with AP´s aside from other tanks and vehicles.

Here's how I interpret the situation. You used a TANK hunter to attack an ARTILLERY piece and expected it to work as it always did. Now it doesn't. Frankly, I consider this change to be a success. Find me where in the US doctrines and manuals did they recommend to utilize m10's on solo-deep-infiltration missions to neutralize artillery batteries and maybe I'll concede.

In reality, M10´s and TDs often attacked all sorts of targets. M10 ammo consumption records even show that 75% of all shots fired had been HE.
They got used like normal tanks attacking everything they could find, inf, artillery pieces, vehicles, tanks.

So, we basically would have to add HE rounds for free and as swapping ability for every tank so that they get the means to attack the targets they face.


Dont tell me now that an M10 never targeted an artillery piece when they came accross one, or that tanks didnt fire back at 88 guns: Like "oh, its not a tank, sorry dudes, we cant attack this thing, we only have AP". This is bullshit. They shot at all targets they could find, not just tanks. And they used the rounds available, even when the first was an AP round.


Not long ago i read (and listend) to combat reports of Tiger, Panther and Jagdpanther crews. They attacked everything. When the Tiger ran out of AP ammo, they shot HE against enemie Tanks and disabled them.

The Jagdpanther crew fired AP rounds at any target when ambushing a british column and did not ran away when running out or HE rounds.

Jagdpanzer IV´s got used as assault guns like stugs attacking all targets.


There are countless ammounts of combat records when a unit (often also a mix of shermans and M10) penetrated an area and managed to open fire at any enemie unit with all rounds available.


Give me AP/HE swap on all tanks with no upgrade required and no "pay per shot" and i perhaps i can accept these conditions since my tanks will still be able to attack all targets with its default equipment like they should do.



And your comparision of tank guns to k98 is just garbage. A rifle is a rifle carried by a soldier. A tank is 30 ton vehicle of steel with 5 men crew, 3 MG´s and a big ass gun that can essentially attack all targets except for planes. Its main purpose is to attack all targets it can find. Even when its a TD in its main role, it doesnt change the fact that gun got used against any target when necessary.

[MarKr]

Its main purpose is to attack all targets it can find. Even when its a TD in its main role, it doesnt change the fact that gun got used against any target when necessary.

Tanks can attack anything they find. That's why they have their HE ammo upgrade.

Stop argumenting with what is bullshit and what isn't when compared to reality and get used to the fact that AP ammo is for shooting at vehicles and tanks and HE ammo is needed to attack infantry and crew-able weapons. Once you include that info into your attack planning, you'll be just fine.

[kwok]

Yes, it is the sort of combined arms that lacks an effective way of dealing with weapon crews.

My holly shit. How stupid can things be.... you made a breach into the enemie lines WITH COMBINED ARMS!::::;;::!!!!!

And then you rush your tanks in to kill some stuff but they cant because they couldnt find any suitable target. Only some stupid neblers, AT guns that are facing at the wrong direction and Howitzers... too bad, nothing there to kill. Tanks retreat, Howitzers still alive. Sorry, these things have magic armor. My barrel touched the howitzer but couldnt hit.



Dude, this is sooo bullshit. When i manage to flank stuff and getting it from behind etc, then i did use proper tactics, simple as that. Being unable to hit is pure noob protection at this point.

And idk if you noticed that, but it happens during games, esspecially with low ressources, that even throwing grenades (esspecially german once) will deplete your income.

Imagine a standard attack. Opened with some arty (50-160 ammo), using inf that uses abilties a few times like nades (easily 50 ammo or more), weapon upgrades on inf (50-100 ammo), a tank with ammo upgrades and other upgrades like skirts (50-85 ammo or more) that uses 1-2 HE rounds during this event against inf and weapon crews (25-75 ammo). That can deplete your ammo stock, esspecially when it is just arround 50 or less). So you made it through the lines, the inf has to retreat after it did the job, your tank advances, ammo is damn low, HE on cooldown and you are so happy that you can now cause some trouble against some backline units. BUT: "Nope" *mehhep sound* "Your are not allowed to hit this unit with your AP ammo, pls come back later. We dont care a shit that you managed to point the barrel of the tank literally against this howitzers. This is BK, we hate good players!" Just Fuck off. But who am I. Its you who will earn the shit storm when this goes live and people start realize that they will never hit anything with AP´s aside from other tanks and vehicles.

Sounds like you didn't plan your attack accordingly, you went in too early with too little ammo. And don't tell me you can't kill an arty piece with a tank.... you literally have your coax with your tank.

Here's how I interpret the situation. You used a TANK hunter to attack an ARTILLERY piece and expected it to work as it always did. Now it doesn't. Frankly, I consider this change to be a success. Find me where in the US doctrines and manuals did they recommend to utilize m10's on solo-deep-infiltration missions to neutralize artillery batteries and maybe I'll concede.

In reality, M10´s and TDs often attacked all sorts of targets. M10 ammo consumption records even show that 75% of all shots fired had been HE.
They got used like normal tanks attacking everything they could find, inf, artillery pieces, vehicles, tanks.

So, we basically would have to add HE rounds for free and as swapping ability for every tank so that they get the means to attack the targets they face.

Dont tell me now that an M10 never targeted an artillery piece when they came accross one, or that tanks didnt fire back at 88 guns: Like "oh, its not a tank, sorry dudes, we cant attack this thing, we only have AP". This is bullshit. They shot at all targets they could find, not just tanks. And they used the rounds available, even when the first was an AP round.

Not long ago i read (and listend) to combat reports of Tiger, Panther and Jagdpanther crews. They attacked everything. When the Tiger ran out of AP ammo, they shot HE against enemie Tanks and disabled them.

The Jagdpanther crew fired AP rounds at any target when ambushing a british column and did not ran away when running out or HE rounds.

Jagdpanzer IV´s got used as assault guns like stugs attacking all targets.


There are countless ammounts of combat records when a unit (often also a mix of shermans and M10) penetrated an area and managed to open fire at any enemie unit with all rounds available.


Give me AP/HE swap on all tanks with no upgrade required and no "pay per shot" and i perhaps i can accept these conditions since my tanks will still be able to attack all targets with its default equipment like they should do.

Yes, and I'm sure those desperate AP shells against soft targets worked wonderfully in reality. Just because historically people used those weapons in desperation and probably missed doesn't mean it should hit in a video game.
If you want HE shots for TD's, sure there could be decent reasons to have that and could be debated because as you said THATS WHAT THEY DID. But making AP shots effective against team weapons and infantry is just so ridiculous... I honestly am biting my tongue. It's almost as if your logic was "M10s mostly shot HE rounds and attacked/killed soft targets, therefore the AP rounds should be accurate against soft targets".

And your comparision of tank guns to k98 is just garbage. A rifle is a rifle carried by a soldier. A tank is 30 ton vehicle of steel with 5 men crew, 3 MG´s and a big ass gun that can essentially attack all targets except for planes. Its main purpose is to attack all targets it can find. Even when its a TD in its main role, it doesnt change the fact that gun got used against any target when necessary.

So use your MG's.
And yes, my comparison is meant to be garbage because your reasoning is garbage. You're using examples of desperate situations in history as reasons to implement a change that you seem to be struggling with.

Your argument literally sounds like "I saw tom hanks try to use his pistol to shoot at the window of a tiger tank in saving private ryan. therefore, there should be at least a 50% chance for infantry to kill tanks at point blank range because soldiers would actually do this. They would use all the tools they can to kill the tank. It would be really easy to aim into the window slits of the tank with a gun."

[Warhawks97]

Its main purpose is to attack all targets it can find. Even when its a TD in its main role, it doesnt change the fact that gun got used against any target when necessary.

Tanks can attack anything they find. That's why they have their HE ammo upgrade.

Stop argumenting with what is bullshit and what isn't when compared to reality and get used to the fact that AP ammo is for shooting at vehicles and tanks and HE ammo is needed to attack infantry and crew-able weapons. Once you include that info into your attack planning, you'll be just fine.

so, if thats the case, tanks should have AP and HE by default without any extra cost.


Srsly, there would have been many better ways to fix things. The AP on AT guns, reload speed, it all was fine. If they had the received accuracy buffs after first shot from camo like TD´s or whatever, things would be ten times better.

Now its garbage. Not all tanks have even HE. And sometimes ressource managment doesnt give you the chance to throw HE against everything, and on top of that HE cooldown adds just an extra burden. Basically, you turned every Tank into a fucking TD, just worse. The only difference is that you can, once in a while, attack an AT gun or artillery piece when ammo is available and the HE not on cooldown.

Thats so great, that adds so much more fun to the gameplay

[kwok]

Yes, I do find it a lot more fun knowing that my AT gun won't get instasniped by a tank that has a 0.5 aim time whereas my AT gun needs to wait a whole 2 seconds before even shooting let alone reloading. I find a lot more fun that my unit does its intended role and doesn't die because "A TANK IS A TANK IT SHOULD BE STRONG". It's almost like I look for tactical depth in planning in my strategy game. I want gameplay that gives me a game. Not a physics and psychology simulation.

[Warhawks97]

Sounds like you didn't plan your attack accordingly, you went in too early with too little ammo. And don't tell me you can't kill an arty piece with a tank.... you literally have your coax with your tank.

because coax work so well. I want to destroy that stuff, not just decrew it. And that takes a few shots as you might know (or perhaps not). A coax works so well to destroy something completely.

Yes, and I'm sure those desperate AP shells against soft targets worked wonderfully in reality. Just because historically people used those weapons in desperation and probably missed doesn't mean it should hit in a video game.
If you want HE shots for TD's, sure there could be decent reasons to have that and could be debated because as you said THATS WHAT THEY DID. But making AP shots effective against team weapons and infantry is just so ridiculous... I honestly am biting my tongue. It's almost as if your logic was "M10s mostly shot HE rounds and attacked/killed soft targets, therefore the AP rounds should be accurate against soft targets".

I am pretty sure an AP shell can hit an AT gun, 88 or piece of artillery very well.

In Post scriptum i see players hitting that stuff with AP shells. There a round doesnt make a sharp turn arround the target.

So use your MG's.
And yes, my comparison is meant to be garbage because your reasoning is garbage. You're using examples of desperate situations in history as reasons to implement a change that you seem to be struggling with.

A Tank that cant hit an AT from point blank is grabage. And aside from "AP is not supposed to hot anything but vehicles) is the largest BS ever. And standard accuracy at range had been 37%. Its not like every AP shot fired hit the AT gun right away. Enough missed. And you started with that history shit saying that m10s never shot at anything else aside tanks. Well, they did, more often than not. If you dont want history talk, dont start it.

Yes, I do find it a lot more fun knowing that my AT gun won't get instasniped by a tank that has a 0.5 aim time whereas my AT gun needs to wait a whole 2 seconds before even shooting let alone reloading. I find a lot more fun that my unit does its intended role and doesn't die because "A TANK IS A TANK IT SHOULD BE STRONG". It's almost like I look for tactical depth in planning in my strategy game. I want gameplay that gives me a game. Not a physics and psychology simulation.

funny, i am the guy asking for an aim time on Tanks.......Put your damn AT gun into ambush and you will be fine. If you are unable to do that and the enemie knows your locaction, well not my bad. Dont punish smart players for your mistakes of AT gun placing and lack of intelligence.

Also i am not saying " A tank is a tank and should be strong". But when a tank appears behind your AT gun or flanking it, well, yes, i think a tank should be strong in this moment.

[MarKr]

so, if thats the case, tanks should have AP and HE by default without any extra cost.

Not true. Tanks can still use their MGs to kill infantry and weapon crews, HE just makes them more effective at that. That reasoning is the same as saying that the purpose of most infantry in the game is to fight other infantry and so they should have their weapon upgrades by default because it is "ridiculous" to pay extra to improve their effectiveness.

[Warhawks97]

so, if thats the case, tanks should have AP and HE by default without any extra cost.

Not true. Tanks can still use their MGs to kill infantry and weapon crews, HE just makes them more effective at that. That reasoning is the same as saying that the purpose of most infantry in the game is to fight other infantry and so they should have their weapon upgrades by default because it is "ridiculous" to pay extra to improve their effectiveness.

There are enough squads having a equipment for their role by default. Like Reg 5, cqc, urban squad, suppression squad and so on.
And we do not upgrade grenades, grenade bundles or whatever on every squad, do we? HE/AP upgrades would be the Grenades and bundles as upgrades on infantry. And we dont do this iirc.


And honestly, i wouldnt mind basic inf (axis and WH) having Rifle grenades at some tec stage of the game by default or BAR´s on rifle squads or other lmgs squads. Or more inf squads with right equipment for their role right away. Just saying.

[kwok]

Sounds like you didn't plan your attack accordingly, you went in too early with too little ammo. And don't tell me you can't kill an arty piece with a tank.... you literally have your coax with your tank.

because coax work so well. I want to destroy that stuff, not just decrew it. And that takes a few shots as you might know (or perhaps not). A coax works so well to destroy something completely.

Used another unit to do so.... combined arms man.

Yes, and I'm sure those desperate AP shells against soft targets worked wonderfully in reality. Just because historically people used those weapons in desperation and probably missed doesn't mean it should hit in a video game.
If you want HE shots for TD's, sure there could be decent reasons to have that and could be debated because as you said THATS WHAT THEY DID. But making AP shots effective against team weapons and infantry is just so ridiculous... I honestly am biting my tongue. It's almost as if your logic was "M10s mostly shot HE rounds and attacked/killed soft targets, therefore the AP rounds should be accurate against soft targets".

I am pretty sure an AP shell can hit an AT gun, 88 or piece of artillery very well.

In Post scriptum i see players hitting that stuff with AP shells. There a round doesnt make a sharp turn arround the target.

Dude, if you keep using FPS games as an example for an RTS game... I don't know how we can keep having conversations.

So use your MG's.
And yes, my comparison is meant to be garbage because your reasoning is garbage. You're using examples of desperate situations in history as reasons to implement a change that you seem to be struggling with.

A Tank that cant hit an AT from point blank is grabage. And aside from "AP is not supposed to hot anything but vehicles) is the largest BS ever. And standard accuracy at range had been 37%. Its not like every AP shot fired hit the AT gun right away. Enough missed. And you started with that history shit saying that m10s never shot at anything else aside tanks. Well, they did, more often than not. If you dont want history talk, dont start it.

You completely missed my point in bringing up history... it was literally a point about using units for their intended role. Because usually players will bring up history as a way to back up their claim why something SHOULD exist. If it exists in history it should exist in game. But in this, it's like the direct opposite. It didn't even exist in history, why should it be entertained as if it was WAS in history and SHOULD be implemented? You draw on realism to back up your entire argument here. I'm saying dude, it isn't even realistic/historical.

[Warhawks97]

Used another unit to do so.... combined arms man.

Because there are so many units with Big Boom equipment. Like at the end there are 3 shermans, 5 rifle squads, a greyhound and a mortar starring at each other facing this howitzer and asking each other: "Can anyone blow this thing up quickly before the enemie strikes back"?

Riflman says: "I can try it with grenades, but it might take a while and cost me 100 ammo."

Sherman gunner says: "Sorry, my loader wont touch the HE for the next 45 seconds. Also i might need 2-3 shots to do it"

Mortar crew: "I can try to barrage it down, but it takes a while, hold the line guys untill i am done."



Commander says: "Call the HQ, tell them to recruit a combat engineer or special ranger squad with satchels. Perhaps a bazooka squad. Untill then we must hold out here".

[MarKr]

There are enough squads having a equipment for their role by default. Like Reg 5, cqc, urban squad, suppression squad and so on.
And we do not upgrade grenades, grenade bundles or whatever on every squad, do we? HE/AP upgrades would be the Grenades and bundles as upgrades on infantry. And we dont do this iirc.

Yes, those are doctrine-speciffic units that cost CPs. In Armor doc you can also get an unlock that gives HE upgrade for free to M4s. Axis now have stubby tanks with HE by default too. But it is not like Volks come upgraded with SMGs, LMG a Faust "because it is ridiculous to pay for effectiveness increase".

So far the only thing I read here was pretty much "I don't like this" and a bunch of exaggerated "problems" (usually based on rEaLiSm) it supposedly brings but there are available ways to "solve these problems", so the change stays, if it is such a huge obstacle for you, you won't be having much fun, I'm affraid.

We can go on like this for days. You have my stand point and I have nothing else to add here.

[Walderschmidt]

Sherman gunner says: "Sorry, my loader wont touch the HE for the next 45 seconds. Also i might need 2-3 shots to do it"

It’s 15 seconds. If you’re going to argue with the devs don’t misrepresent the game to make your point, especially when it’s a change YOU asked for and that the devs implemented.

Commander says: "Call the HQ, tell them to recruit a combat engineer or special ranger squad with satchels. Perhaps a bazooka squad. Untill then we must hold out here".

The bazooka squad is a great idea. Maybe swap out one of the riflemen for bazookas?

Every other unit you complained about not being able to do the demolition job has a non-demolition role. You are grasping as rhetorical straws.

Wald

[Warhawks97]

Single shot HE is 15 seconds. The entire debate is about the majority of tanks, not those few lucky that can swap between ap and HE. Good morning Wald.


@Markr. Realism? I think kwok came up with it. I gave you tons of gameplay reasons why the current situation just sucks. You outplay your opponent and get punished and backline units cant be attacked the way they should be and killed all the fun and comeback chances for players with skills.

Instead we adjusted it because kwok has issues ambushing their AT guns at proper positions. The only issue i have with AT guns is the fact that some of them have a pretty bad accuracy resulting in first shots failing. But this issue is OFC not addressed. Lets rather change everything else. Same with Panthers. Instead looking at them for tweaks so that they maybe have a drawback here or there, we instead just make them super expensive.

[kwok]

Instead we adjusted it because kwok has issues ambushing their AT guns at proper positions. The only issue i have with AT guns is the fact that some of them have a pretty bad accuracy resulting in first shots failing. But this issue is OFC not addressed. Lets rather change everything else. Same with Panthers. Instead looking at them for tweaks so that they maybe have a drawback here or there, we instead just make them super expensive.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Damn, a dude spends 3 patches arguing to remove camo bonuses and keeping set up time saying players don't know how to position AT guns properly and saying that AT guns are sufficient to stopping tank spams... and he gets labeled as someone who can't position AT guns correctly just because he considered another player's valid complaint. Meanwhile another player spends paragraphs complaining it's impossible to kill AT guns and artillery now and the game is ruined as every other player on thread has said "it's not that big of a deal". You criticize my tactical prowess when it literally sounds like you suck and don't know how to ration your munition spend and that your entire strategy is dependent on the fact that tanks can shoot AP rounds at AT guns. Git gud.

[CGarr]

Of all the hills to die on, this is by far the weirdest one. I kinda get the sentiment of missing inf out in the open from like 10m, but its not that bad.

The only change I personally disliked after testing was how tanks no longer automatically target inf or buildings. The excess micro to have them shoot at inf with their coax and stuff was not worth the tiny bit of micro we are saved during tank v tank engagements. Not being able to hit jack shit with the main gun using non-HE is fine, but since we have to manually micro the coax, it should be buffed or something to compensate, as currently it is pretty useless.

[Walderschmidt]

Of all the hills to die on, this is by far the weirdest one. I kinda get the sentiment of missing inf out in the open from like 10m, but its not that bad.

The only change I personally disliked after testing was how tanks no longer automatically target inf or buildings. The excess micro to have them shoot at inf with their coax and stuff was not worth the tiny bit of micro we are saved during tank v tank engagements. Not being able to hit jack shit with the main gun using non-HE is fine, but since we have to manually micro the coax, it should be buffed or something to compensate, as currently it is pretty useless.

I believe the coax doesn’t auto-engage infantry because it follows the direction of the main gun and I don’t think there’s a way to make it so the tank auto-engages inf with coax gun while simultaneously making switch to a tank as soon as it’s in range.

Because the hull mg auto-engages correct?

I’d be in favor tweaking that stuff slightly but I think that would call for its own thread.

Wald

[Krieger Blitzer]

There is literally no problem with this change, just use HE rounds.. even in games like Gates Of Hell, attacking a towed gun with AP rounds is completely pointless. So, i think it's fine now; at least in my opinion... Despite i wouldn't mind to see slight AP accuracy increase at point blank.. but it's nothing essential and currently it's working just fine.

[Warhawks97]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Damn, a dude spends 3 patches arguing to remove camo bonuses and keeping set up time saying players don't know how to position AT guns properly and saying that AT guns are sufficient to stopping tank spams... and he gets labeled as someone who can't position AT guns correctly just because he considered another player's valid complaint. Meanwhile another player spends paragraphs complaining it's impossible to kill AT guns and artillery now and the game is ruined as every other player on thread has said "it's not that big of a deal". You criticize my tactical prowess when it literally sounds like you suck and don't know how to ration your munition spend and that your entire strategy is dependent on the fact that tanks can shoot AP rounds at AT guns. Git gud.

1. Idk why to remove camo bonuses. I mean, i dont care about camo bonuses so much. And sometimes i feel like things would perhaps be better when camo would just be camo without bonuses since camo itself is already a bonus. If you want to remove it, do it,i dont care.

2. I didnt say its impossible to kill AT guns. I do kill most of them with arty or flanking maneuvers anyways. However its true that i see AT guns getting overruned by tanks, but that has NOTHING to do with AP accuracy against them. Last time when wurfs single 76 sherman overruned my 75 mm oak 40, it was because the first shot failed, the second didnt kill it. He fired an HE right away that killed my entire crew. The AP alone doesnt overrun an AT gun just like that. Its the armor of tanks that makes the tank live long enough to kill the gun and the AT guns that fail to hit the target. But who is the guy who is pushing for fixing guns (tanks and at guns) accuracy so that they get not overruned due to fail shots? ME!

3. AP rounds usually need up to 3 hits before killing the gun and also do relatively little damage to the crew. Untill then an AT gun has killed the target usually.

4. What simply bothers me is that when i flanked an AT gun, staying quite close to but being still not able to hit it anymore. Or when i stay in front of an big ass howitzer but cant kill it. I can kill all mechanized artillery, but not these fat howitzers and nebelwerfers. I do not ask for AP rounds being able to hit AT guns in order to overrun them head on. I never did and most head-on attacks are being won due to HE anyways, not by the fact that AP hit. Its quite similiar to an inf squad vs HMG. When i attack frontally and get into grenade range somehow, i throw a grenade and dont wait for my small arms to kill them. But when i manage to sneak up from behind, why wasting ammo for a grenade when my small arms will kill them anyways a second later. The same applies to AT guns. If i dare to attack them frontally, i would always use HE as soon as possible and wouldnt wait for AP doing the job, regardless of accuracy stats. but when i get them from the flanks and rear and being close to them, why being forced to waste valuable ammo?



Anyway, i dont want to launch a civil war here. I like you too much for that.

But consider the following propsal:
1. Base accuracy of guns vs AT guns reduced from 0.5 to 0.4 or 0.35
2. When AT gun fired from ambush, it will be harder to hit for a while just like TDs.
3. Instead of point 2 we can can get rid of any Ambush bonuses in the game (except perhaps accuracy). However, when a units get ambushed, it will get some debuffs on their accuracy and vision and aim time. Its a shock bonus.
4. Fix the accuracy stats of guns, esspecially AT guns. Should be higher than 65% base accuracy at range.
5. Add a fourth men to light and medium AT guns. It will keep the AT guns crewed for a longer time. Or all get a 5 men crew and its done.
6. Nebelwerfer and howitzers will get a increased received accuracy modifier of like 1.25 or so. That way tanks will still be able to hit them when staying right in front of them instead of getting a magic shield.
7. Base accuracy vs inf would be 0.2 and a 0.5 accuracy modifier added when those are moving.

Of all the hills to die on, this is by far the weirdest one. I kinda get the sentiment of missing inf out in the open from like 10m, but its not that bad.

The only change I personally disliked after testing was how tanks no longer automatically target inf or buildings. The excess micro to have them shoot at inf with their coax and stuff was not worth the tiny bit of micro we are saved during tank v tank engagements. Not being able to hit jack shit with the main gun using non-HE is fine, but since we have to manually micro the coax, it should be buffed or something to compensate, as currently it is pretty useless.

yes.

[Krieger Blitzer]

3. Instead of point 2 we can can get rid of any Ambush bonuses in the game (except perhaps accuracy). However, when a units get ambushed, it will get some debuffs on their accuracy and vision and aim time. Its a shock bonus.

I just want to say that camo bonuses were nerfed so many times already, i am not with anyone suggesting to remove or reduce ambush bonuses any further.

There was a time when Axis TDs used to fire 3 times from ambush.. there was a time when generally ambushed units would re-hide quickly, there was a time when ambush provided penetration & reload & damage boost.. there was a time when ambushed units were harder to spot.. but now u get an ability on every scout to reveal them and all those privileges got removed. Ambush is currently fine as it is...


Ambush also shouldn't be all standardised. Axis TDs for example get more range than Allied ones, because they reload slower and lack turrets.. while Allied TDs are faster, have turrets and reload quicker.

So, it all makes sense and every camo bonus currently is justified.

[Doomsdaymachine]

As a new member of the forum but a long time BK player, I welcome some of the changes to the new beta, but not others (ill address that in a proper post). But so far, I like the fact that tanks/vehicles must use HE to wreck emplacements (you know, the thing HE is used for), I think the current problem that warhawk is facing is that he is failing to change his strategy to the new parameters and that will cause issues, especially if you are used to playing a certain way. Ultimately, tanks should be supported by infantry anyway for exactly this reason, no ammo to fire HE? flank the gun with infantry and wham a grenade in there.

[Warhawks97]

As a new member of the forum but a long time BK player, I welcome some of the changes to the new beta, but not others (ill address that in a proper post). But so far, I like the fact that tanks/vehicles must use HE to wreck emplacements (you know, the thing HE is used for), I think the current problem that warhawk is facing is that he is failing to change his strategy to the new parameters and that will cause issues, especially if you are used to playing a certain way. Ultimately, tanks should be supported by infantry anyway for exactly this reason, no ammo to fire HE? flank the gun with infantry and wham a grenade in there.

I am not having issues, just questioning the logic and asking if there would be better ways to solve it. Ive got used to changes over the past 9 years, so, no problem here.

But the thing is it doesnt really solve the issue: Tanks rolling over AT guns. Units like Panthers, Tigers, KT, Pershings etc will still roll over AT guns via frontal attack. They tank a shot and in return blast the AT gun with HE as they used to be, esspecially when AT guns will fail to hit or pen the target.

But what it does is killing the rewards for good gameplay and save units save bad positioned units from destruction. So the effect it has on solving an issue is rather low, but at the other hand kills the reward system. Being rewarded for good gameplay is essential for the fun of RTS games and even an emotional event for many. But now seeing units being saved despite being badly placed is just frustrating. Thats why i am questioning the change and asked for alternative changes. But nobody ever replied to the changes i suggested above.

[Leenday]

Agreed with MarKr. Actual gameplay situations would happen infinitely more times than the "real" point black basically-testing-the-mechanic shots. And gameplay wise it is much more adequate of a solution to make it ineffective.

[CGarr]

I believe the coax doesn’t auto-engage infantry because it follows the direction of the main gun and I don’t think there’s a way to make it so the tank auto-engages inf with coax gun while simultaneously making switch to a tank as soon as it’s in range.

Because the hull mg auto-engages correct?

I’d be in favor tweaking that stuff slightly but I think that would call for its own thread.

Wald

yeah, it moves with the main gun. I think it autotargets stuff that's straight in front of the turret (could be wrong). This is def a topic for a different thread though.

[MarKr]

Yes, the hull MGs have option of searching for viable targets in a cone (set in degrees) in front of the tank. The "cone" for coaxial MGs is set literally to 0° so it only fires at things that the weapon is directly pointint at. I guess we could increase the cone a bit to allow for easier equiring of targets (historical fans will probably flip about it ) but it is not possible to make it so that the turret would rotate automatically to allow the coaxial MG shooting at targets because the main gun governs the turret rotation.