[Blitz doc] Pz4 / Stug4

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[Blitz doc] Pz4 / Stug4

Postby Tiger1996 » 26 Aug 2019, 17:05

MarKr wrote:EDIT:
Also probably worth noting - the StuG unlock gives access to StuG IV "Late" version, previously only obtainable through BK doctrine's Combat Group ability. The Combat Group ability in Blitz doctrine was changed and in one of previous beta updates and no longer provides this unit and so it was unused in the game. This version comes with skirts upgraded but also is a bit more expensive than the StuG IV available in BK doc.
StuG III (reward option for StuG IV) has no camo but instead an ability that provides combat boosts to Grenadiers and Stormtroopers. Since neither of these infantry types are available in the new Propaganda doctrine, StuG III would be pointless there and so it is not available as a reward choice here and remains a Blitzkrieg doctrine specific reward option.

If i understand this correctly; Terror doc has access to Stug4 "late version" with camo after 2 CPs and slightly higher cost.. but Blitz doc still has access to either Stug3 or Stug4 "early version" with camo right away for 0 CPs, right?!

So, if that's the case...
Blitz doc should have access to Stug3 for 0 CPs, as it is.. but Stug4 should require 2 CPs as well. Meanwhile; the Pz4 should require 2 CPs earlier...
And the Stug4 should be on a different branch from Pz4 in Blitz doc.. so for example the Stug4 "early" could be unlocked in the "off-map support" path.

That said, don't forget about the AA vehicles balance across doctrines.. as i still wonder about the Ostwind and where it's going to be.

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Re: [Blitz doc] Pz4 / Stug4

Postby MarKr » 26 Aug 2019, 18:31

Tiger1996 wrote:So, if that's the case...
It is not the case. The topic announced changes to Terror/Propaganda doctrine, not the full changelog with tweaks to other doctrines. Full changelog will come later.
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Re: [Blitz doc] Pz4 / Stug4

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Sep 2019, 01:10

MarKr wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:So, if that's the case...
It is not the case. The topic announced changes to Terror/Propaganda doctrine, not the full changelog with tweaks to other doctrines. Full changelog will come later.

Well, so... Now that the change-log is up; despite i haven't had much time to fully test the beta yet.. but i just had a quick look and here are few notes concerning some certain old matters.

Regarding the part about Stug4 in Blitz doc, as stated here:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3332

I would like to draw your attention that the idea was to allow Pz4 earlier, as exchange of giving some CPs requirement to the Stug4 instead of being a default unit that costs no Command Points at all.

However, according to the changes.. you just delayed both!
Definitely I see how the Pz4.F2 is now available for no CPs in return, but this still doesn't compensate with the amount of CPs the player needs to spend in order to finally have access to higher classes of Panzer4 tanks at affordable prices.

Thus, i think the way how the CPs are currently divided across the doctrine.. is very unthoughtful.
And based on that, I would like to propose a slight change for now; but it should be enough to deliver the core of the idea:

blitz.png

You could take away some CPs from Pz4 unlock and swap it with the Stug unlock.

==========================================

And since this is the general section of the forum, i would like to remind you of this report:
Tiger1996 wrote:- Axis TDs are now revealed on the first ambush strike, right?
That's OK.. but hey, the re-hide time is insanely LONG at the moment.

it's serious, and a big issue in my opinion.

==========================================

Also, I'm not exactly sure if StormTroops are still worth these too many Command Points after those massive de-buffs that they have received throughout the course of various updates over the past year and until now.

The recent changes to Pz3 might be a little bit too much as well, but those are subjects for another day.

Anyway, later I can hopefully provide more detailed feedback that is focused on the rest of the changes of this beta...

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Re: [Blitz doc] Pz4 / Stug4

Postby kwok » 09 Sep 2019, 02:50

We probably will not change the PIV with more CP otherwise the PIII probably will never see the light of day. If anything, we would delay the 76 sherman more... We still see the PIV come out at a certain point of the game (even if it's later) so we are not too worried that the 4CP cost is that detrimental.

Axis TDs are now revealed on the first ambush strike, right?
That's OK.. but hey, the re-hide time is insanely LONG at the moment.

Please split your topics. Even though the forum is a general one, it is much easier to address if things are on split threads and in proper places (whether it balances, bugs, etc). It's purely organizational. We can keep discussions focused and treat the forum sort of like a "task list log" instead of trying to sift through tons of messages trying to remember where someone said something. I suggest making this as a separate thread if you really think it's important to address otherwise we are just going to forget.

Same with storm troopers. I don't think we have a specific thread for it because we changed the structure of the release notes recently. But feel free to make one and put your detailed feedback there.

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Re: [Blitz doc] Pz4 / Stug4

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Sep 2019, 11:45

I will later establish a new topic for StormTroops.

However, the issue of Axis TDs taking too long to re-hide (over 15 seconds) has been mentioned so many times already and there is nothing more to say about this.. so i believe you could just note it down already, as there is no need to start a new topic just to repeat the same.

Not to mention i don't have all the time in the world anymore.. so it's already too nice that i'm coming here to provide some feedback while i can.

Nonetheless, prior to your request of splitting my topics.. then i'm now going to keep this topic focused only on Stugs, Pz4 & probably Pz3 as well since it's somewhat related.

kwok wrote:We probably will not change the PIV with more CP otherwise the PIII probably will never see the light of day. If anything, we would delay the 76 sherman more... We still see the PIV come out at a certain point of the game (even if it's later) so we are not too worried that the 4CP cost is that detrimental


First, before this latest beta update comes out.. you kept telling us that Pz4 had to be delayed so that light tanks could have a chance, yet.. you were fine with Stugs being available for no CPs, until i spoke about it.

And now, your wisdom is telling us that both Stug and Pz4 need to be delayed so that light tanks (such as Pz3) could have a chance! Yet, you should know that the only thing that would prevent Pz3 from seeing the light of day.. is actually the de-buffs you just made on Pz3 tanks... Making them significantly weaker.

So, first you tried to justify how Pz4 is delayed by telling us that it's neccessary for the sake of light tanks, but when you discovered that your argument doesn't make any sense because Stug4 was available without any CPs requirement.. you decided to delay it as well. Surprisingly though, you are still using the same broken argument that it's necessary for light tanks to have a chance... While at the same time nerfing Pz3 despite claiming that you are afraid about light tanks not seeing the light of day. Who is going to deploy Pz3 right now when a 37mm half-track is cheaper and does nearly the same job? Pz3 gets penetrated by 37mm AT guns now, just like the half-track.. so it's not like there is much difference.

You see how your arguments are falling apart?
I can tell for sure that your entire intention of the Blitz doc re-work was to delay Pz4 tanks.. why? Because you personally hate them, and i know that for certainty. Since your playstyle is always countered by these things... Now, let me repeat some sentences that you pretend to always "advice" other players with:

"Oh kwok, maybe you should try to improve your gameplay and adjust your tactics and tweak them, rather than sticking to a certain meta or instead of trying to enforce some changes that only fits your playstyle more."

Pz4 at 4CPs is such a wicked desire you just desperately seek to maintain.

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Re: [Blitz doc] Pz4 / Stug4

Postby kwok » 09 Sep 2019, 14:44

Not to mention i don't have all the time in the world anymore.. so it's already too nice that i'm coming here to provide some feedback while i can.

I'm sure you didn't mean this as a condescending high-horsed insult but sure... I understand you're busy. I'm busy too. So is everyone else on the dev team, as apparent by just the amount of time it takes to push an update. So let's keep the conversation civil? If you knew how much I argue FOR the players behind the scenes I don't think you'd say any of my intentions are 'wicked' ... I argue FOR the devs on forum because that's also my "job" to make sure the changes are good for everyone. It was always known that the devs did not even play BK, so I've been trying to help them from a "player" perspective. But the more I help the more I realize why they don't play because i've stopped myself. Being none of the devs play including myself now, why would we have ANY desire to have anything in the game except to do it for the players themselves? We are more than willing to make changes if we feel enough players think the changes are needed... It doesn't help to call anyone "wicked" while putting yourself on a pedestal...
I'll tell you the same thing I told Warhawks, "sometimes it's not about what you say but how you say it". And i've called warhawks (who I consider my friend) a word I'm not allowed to use on the forum lol. I hope he didn't take offense to it, I hope you don't either. Because at the end of the day we are ALL people trying to shape a game we don't even play anymore FOR the better of the community, right? Welcome back to the forum, let's not start your return with a fight like we use to.

Okay, I got that out of the way... about the arguments now.

First, before this latest beta update comes out.. you kept telling us that Pz4 had to be delayed so that light tanks could have a chance, yet.. you were fine with Stugs being available for no CPs, until i spoke about it.

If I am allowed to be honest, it was a change I was looking for for a while and you mentioning it help to push it into something that the dev team is willing to change. I personally wasn't fine with StuGs being available so early, but that would be too radical of a change back then for a team that always tends to be more conservative in their changes. Surprise, there's a few things we agree on that I don't reveal... and a lot of changes that I pushed for that you've come up with. Sadly lowering the CP for panzer 4s is actually something I don't agree on.

And now, your wisdom is telling us that both Stug and Pz4 need to be delayed so that light tanks (such as Pz3) could have a chance! Yet, you should know that the only thing that would prevent Pz3 from seeing the light of day.. is actually the de-buffs you just made on Pz3 tanks... Making them significantly weaker.

This came at the request from a LOT of testers and there's a few forum posts about it. Unfortunately, a lot of the players aren't coming on to the forum... instead they tell me every day on discord like the lazy cowards they are. You can see the topic here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3304
The original post had a lot of words I was forced to edit. I would have no problem reverting panzer IIIs back to their "OP" state to show people that their posts on the forum matters and that just messaging me on steam doesn't mean anything. But that's very spiteful and immature so I was told by other dev members.

While at the same time nerfing Pz3 despite claiming that you are afraid about light tanks not seeing the light of day. Who is going to deploy Pz3 right now when a 37mm half-track is cheaper and does nearly the same job? Pz3 gets penetrated by 37mm AT guns now, just like the half-track.. so it's not like there is much difference.

And yet based on replays people are STILL using the panzer III, so we are pretty comfortable with the decisions made so far. Here is essentially how we have been "testing" our changes:
1. Prior to changes the panzer III and other half tracks were never used.
2. Post changes the panzer III was overused.
3. Now we are waiting for additional feedback as we tweak it more.
Based on #1 and #2 I'd say that we are pulling the right lever in hitting the objective of changes, we are just pulling that lever too hard every time. It'll take a few more tries to get it right.

"Oh kwok, maybe you should try to improve your gameplay and adjust your tactics and tweak them, rather than sticking to a certain meta or instead of trying to enforce some changes that only fits your playstyle more."

There's a difference between trying to adjust gameplay and tactics to fit specific tactics and responses versus a broad pattern of players never using specific units because it is optimal to rush something and skip a whole tier of units. We find this distinction by looking at replays. If players complain about something but we find a replay where the complaint is addressed through a playstyle then we don't really take it as a real problem. If across many replays we see something being done over and over again with no variation, then we think something needs to be done. Just take a look at the current live version (non-beta) and see how often you find the chaffee, stuart, panzer III, etc. being used in game.

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Re: [Blitz doc] Pz4 / Stug4

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Sep 2019, 16:00

Ok, i will try to keep this as civil as possible & right on the spot.. also to save my time, and yours.

kwok wrote:There's a difference between trying to adjust gameplay and tactics to fit specific tactics and responses versus a broad pattern of players never using specific units because it is optimal to rush something and skip a whole tier of units.

Though, it makes me mad every time when you bring this argument to the discussion.
How come is rushing for Pz4.H considered as skipping a whole tier? While rushing for Stug4, Pz3, and Pz4.F2 considered not?
I'm telling you this way Pz4.H is becoming a complete outsider.. who is going to spend that many CPs for Pz4.H and its mass production unlocks when they could better just hold the line with many cheaper things such as Stugs, Pz3 and F2 tanks and then rush straight for Panthers?

Going for a Pz4.H in Blitz doc now requires 4 CPs, and in order to make it affordable, you need to spend further 3 CPs.. total 7 CPs.
Panther.D requires just 6 CPs, and Tiger1 in Terror doc requires 4 CPs now... Jackson and Jumbo requires 4 or 5 CPs.
So, basically the Pz4.H tank is nearly at the same tier as heavy tanks and high tier TDs now? it used to require only 2 CPs stock.

it's exactly the Pz4.H that is not going to see the light of the day.. despite it's supposed to be the backbone of this doctrine, as it was in reality.
There is simply much better options available that covers up the need for any Pz4.H tanks... Now they could literally be stripped off the doctrine completely and you wouldn't feel any difference.. because they currently have no purpose whatsoever.

And how on earth are you going to delay 76 Shermans to compensate with this?
Do you realize that you will eventually have to delay 76 Shermans by at least 3 more CPs in every US doctrine as long as Pz4.H keeps as late?

That said, I still need to test more about Pz3, but i don't like making the turret too slow.. when in reality the Pz3.N had a fast turning turret; the mobility of this tank in general was very good, thus... Lowering the turret traverse speed that much, is hardly acceptable.

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Re: [Blitz doc] Pz4 / Stug4

Postby kwok » 09 Sep 2019, 17:44

How come is rushing for Pz4.H considered as skipping a whole tier? While rushing for Stug4, Pz3, and Pz4.F2 considered not?
I'm telling you this way Pz4.H is becoming a complete outsider.. who is going to spend that many CPs for Pz4.H and its mass production unlocks when they could better just hold the line with many cheaper things such as Stugs and F2 tanks and then rush straight for Panthers?

I think it WOULD be skipping a whole tier. Pz3's i consider in same tier as chaffee/stuart/etc. So far we have been seeing more 57mm HT, chaffees, pz3s... it COULD change but so far it seems like we are getting closer to make T2 a bit longer phase... If people are rushing panthers past the P4's then we will address that. Haven't seen that yet because of how expensive panthers are, but you're right it's possible. We need replays or more testers to prove that it's viable. Because as of right now, if blitz plays too defensive and stalls behind stugs they lose on map pressure, get run over by a jumbo or ranger rush...

It's exactly the Pz4.H that is not going to see the light of the day.. despite it's supposed to be the backbone of this doctrine, as it was in reality.
There is simply much better options available that covers up the need for any Pz4.H tanks... Now they could literally be stripped off the doctrine completely and you wouldn't feel any difference.. because they currently have no purpose whatsoever.

In games I've played I still see the P4. Their role is essentially between a powerspike from mid-to late tier. We've also made changes to reduce the base price of panzer iv's for the exact reasons/complaints you mentioned here because we agreed, they were too expensive to "just use" without the CP unlock price reduction.

And how on earth are you going to delay 76 Shermans to compensate with this?
Do you realize that you will eventually have to delay 76 Shermans by at least 3 more CPs in every US doctrine as long as Pz4.H keeps as late

Maybe. depends on how the p3 changes go.

That said, I still need to test more about Pz3, but i don't like making the turret too slow.. when in reality the Pz3.N had a fast turning turret; the mobility of this tank in general was very good, thus... Lowering the turret traverse speed that much, is hardly acceptable.

complained multiple times by TESTERS. as we explained to warhawks, we take those who have tried and worked WITH us to make the game well with greater weight than those who don't try and just try to make changes as a way of being against us.

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Re: [Blitz doc] Pz4 / Stug4

Postby Tiger1996 » 10 Sep 2019, 06:22

We've also made changes to reduce the base price of panzer iv's for the exact reasons/complaints you mentioned here because we agreed, they were too expensive to "just use" without the CP unlock price reduction.

And that makes the mass production unlocks just useless.. great job!

complained multiple times by TESTERS. as we explained to warhawks, we take those who have tried and worked WITH us to make the game well with greater weight than those who don't try and just try to make changes as a way of being against us.

Testers complained about the turret traverse speed.. true. However, nobody told you it should be 15 instead of 35 as it could be 25 which is also considered a reduction, right? What I'm trying to say is you always over-do everything.. no one told you to reduce the turret traverse speed THAT much.

Also, are you trying to say that I'm not testing or that I'm working against you despite of the replays & videoes I posted for the beta??? That would take it to a whole new level.. because you don't know what I could really do if I seriously wanted to "work" against you.

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Re: [Blitz doc] Pz4 / Stug4

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 10 Sep 2019, 13:46

Tiger....are we gonna be back to the big threat master behaviour? or keep it civil? do not threat anybody here as you do, keep cool.
thx
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Re: [Blitz doc] Pz4 / Stug4

Postby kwok » 10 Sep 2019, 14:01

Going for a Pz4.H in Blitz doc now requires 4 CPs, and in order to make it affordable, you need to spend further 3 CPs.. total 7 CPs.

We've also made changes to reduce the base price of panzer iv's for the exact reasons/complaints you mentioned here because we agreed, they were too expensive to "just use" without the CP unlock price reduction.

And that makes the mass production unlocks just useless.. great job!


So.... the pzIV isn’t affordable without the cost reduction but the cost reduction is just useless? The cost reduction upgrade is both absolutely needed for pzIVs and useless for pzIVs at the same time?


Testers complained about the turret traverse speed.. true. However, nobody told you it should be 15 instead of 35 as it could be 25 which is also considered a reduction, right? What I'm trying to say is you always over-do everything.. no one told you to reduce the turret traverse speed THAT much.

If I remember right we set it to be standard with other tanks. That’s what we based it off of at first. Yeah balancing is about going too much then too little then too much again. If we think it’s too much we will probably bump it up to 25.

Also, are you trying to say that I'm not testing or that I'm working against you despite of the replays & videoes I posted for the beta???

Yeah I’ve seen some of those replays and we mentioned it a few times. Not just me but a few other players have mentioned that you play the blitz doc extremely defensively opting to camp until panthers. There were only one or two replays if I recall... where I know some
Players including myself had over 20 games to adapt to changes.

That would take it to a whole new level.. because you don't know what I could really do if I seriously wanted to "work" against you.

Okay. Welcome back tiger.


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