JagdPanther cone of fire.

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Tiger1996
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JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby Tiger1996 » 24 Nov 2017, 21:35

For a long time I actually wanted to talk about this, though I am not exactly sure what has made me never doing it earlier.

As far as I can observe, this is something particularly about the JagdPanther. I have always noticed that this tank has "wrong" cone of fire...
However, I am not really sure why no one has ever managed to bring this up until now!

The cone of fire is simply wrong as I stated, being too wide. Leading to a visual error... Notice the following picture:
20171124220150_1.jpg


Sherman tank in this picture died seconds later after taking this screen-shot... Now, take a look at the gun barrel. It simply "can't" turn that far to the right, neither to the left by the way. But the "wrong" cone of fire allows the gun to shoot way wider than the barrel could actually turn!


Therefore, I suggest reducing the cone of fire, making it more narrow.. while perhaps increasing the basic gun range by +5 more in return.

The yellow lines in the picture indicates the current cone of fire of the JagdPanther, the red line indicates where the gun is actually pointed.. and the green lines indicate the new cone of fire which I am suggesting.

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Warhawks97
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Re: JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby Warhawks97 » 25 Nov 2017, 00:12

Is it just the jagdpanther or also other non turret tds and tanks?

That reminds me of the hetzer. It has a gun put on the right side but the cone of fire is based on the middle of the tank. idk if it got changed. Jalis or whoever showed us that hetzer is "fixable" as well.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby mofetagalactica » 25 Nov 2017, 02:28

Tiger1996 wrote:For a long time I actually wanted to talk about this, though I am not exactly sure what has made me never doing it earlier.

As far as I can observe, this is something particularly about the JagdPanther. I have always noticed that this tank has "wrong" cone of fire...
However, I am not really sure why no one has ever managed to bring this up until now!

The cone of fire is simply wrong as I stated, being too wide. Leading to a visual error... Notice the following picture:
20171124220150_1.jpg

Sherman tank in this picture died seconds later after taking this screen-shot... Now, take a look at the gun barrel. It simply "can't" turn that far to the right, neither to the left by the way. But the "wrong" cone of fire allows the gun to shoot way wider than the barrel could actually turn!


Therefore, I suggest reducing the cone of fire, making it more narrow.. while perhaps increasing the basic gun range by +5 more in return.

The yellow lines in the picture indicates the current cone of fire of the JagdPanther, the red line indicates where the gun is actually pointed.. and the green lines indicate the new cone of fire which I am suggesting.


Looks wrong idem, it should be fixed however about ading +5 im not so sure about that, it dosn't even need more range the tank its already able to hold front to front againts the bigger tanks in game

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Jalis
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Re: JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby Jalis » 25 Nov 2017, 04:23

Warhawks97 wrote:Is it just the jagdpanther or also other non turret tds and tanks?

That reminds me of the hetzer. It has a gun put on the right side but the cone of fire is based on the middle of the tank. idk if it got changed. Jalis or whoever showed us that hetzer is "fixable" as well.


I post a screen shot several years ago to illustrate historical tracking for jadg and pak. I chose the hetzer because unlike most other vehicles it have an asymetrical cone.
I was in fear, first, restricting tracking angle, cause nerf to stug and jadg, but In fact It wasnt.
About all german s tank-hunters have a too generous angle of fire at bk. It is something I worked on a long time ago aside target table issues.

However the problem Tiger1996 display here (except it cause a balance problem) is purely visual/graphical.

It is a bit like say my infantry cant use grenade rifle launcher ; I dont see the soldier introducting the special ammo in the chamber, put the projectile at the barrel end and ... blablabla
We can also look how many bullets casing the mg 42 eject in game, make the deduction ; what would be the real rate of fire accordying visual effect and ask dev to modify it, for it will be adequate to graphical effect.

Just to say ; is it really important for you ?

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Vega1707
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Re: JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby Vega1707 » 25 Nov 2017, 10:24

Yeah I think mor range would be difficult since it is already very strong.
But it would be also a nerf to the tank if the area it could cover would become smaller so this isnt as easy as it sounds maybe ;)

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Re: JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby MarKr » 25 Nov 2017, 10:39

All in all I don't think the lower cone of fire would be a significant nerf. The TDs can turn rather quickly and the JP would spend about 0.1 second longer turning to get the target into this more narrow cone of fire. On the other hand the +5 range would be a significant buff. It i just a visual thing, the fire angles are believable, it is not like it shoots behind itself.
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Re: JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby Tiger1996 » 25 Nov 2017, 10:41

@Hawks
Visually, the Hetzer looks fine.. just as all other TDs as well.. the barrel on the Hetzer does not really shoot beyond its turning limit, unless it's a very slight curve... Which is hardly observable, if anything at all.

JagdPanther on the other hand visually looks VERY wrong, and that's why i only bring it up in particular.


@Mofeta
@Vega
@MarKr
Hmm, i think JagdPanther currently has basic range of 65 and 75 from ambush, being same as Paks. Keep in mind though that this tank has same cannon as KT and Elephant, and both have a basic range of 70 just like the SP. So, i think +5 more basic range for JagdPanther wouldn't really hurt, specifically when the cone of fire becomes more narrow in return.

@Jalis
Obviously i don't care about the historical accuracy here.. as you already stated, i am only pointing at a visual issue. So yes, it's also better not to get into any realism\historical talk regarding this matter, but only focus on the gameplay aspect.
Because, historically.. we already know a lot of things aren't very accurate in this game... Since it's just a game anyway.
And by the way, if you are going to speak about anything that has too generous angle of fire in BK, then i think the most ridiculous is the 17pdr actually. The 17pdr has INSANELY wide cone of fire. But as long as there is no visual issue with it, i didn't bring it up. Although it might be causing a balance flaw when compared with other AT guns cone of fire.. but regardless.

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Re: JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby MarKr » 25 Nov 2017, 12:53

So what that they have same guns? Both KT and Elephant are slower and neither of them has killer-shot ability, nor can camo. "More narrow cone of fire" is by no means enough counterweight to something so useful as more range.
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Tiger1996
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Re: JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby Tiger1996 » 25 Nov 2017, 13:00

The idea I had was to suggest making the JagdPanther's cone of fire a bit narrower, being a bit longer as well in return!
Though, if you think that +5 more range would be too OP (although I can't see how) then well... You can surely just go for narrower cone of fire without increasing the basic range at all in return.. in order to fix this visual issue, that would be fine too.

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Re: JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby Warhawks97 » 25 Nov 2017, 15:33

Elephant and jagdpanzer have 65 standard range, 70 in stat mode and 75 ambush (JP). The KT has basic 70 and 75 in stat mode. The KT has also HE rounds, several other abilties, better armor and one version a top mount mg.

If you ask me i would like to have 70 range for all tanks with this canon (88mm /L71). Jagdpanther, Nashorn, KT and Elephant. Stationary fire modes would add +5 range and in case of Jadpanther and nashorn further + 10 from ambush position. Elephant also with maybe a single long range shot ability.

in return for these boosts:

Increase the reload speed for all of them to standard at least 7 seconds. The reload of such massive rounds are quite difficult. Right now they outperform all allied tanks in terms of reload speed, even US shermans (firefly not) that are kown for their rate of fire due to easily handable rounds.
Stat modes, vets, ambush etc are already reducing the reload time significantly. So there is no need for a standard reload time of less than 6 seconds (which all of them have currently).
Furthermore the Jagdpanther would be able to fire only one ambushed shot before revealing. The following reload would be quickly though (similiar to allied TD). Thus emphasizing the Jagdpanther more offensive role in the doctrine and using its standard range to support advancing infantry with longe ranged shots to knock out critical targets.

So see it as a deal rather than pure boost. More a simple change of how the most powerfull 88 (and likely most powerfull AT gun deployed in ww2) is supposed to be used. Away from quick shooting instant killer (weapon of mass destruction), or super anti spam weapon, and towards to be a weapon that strikes hard from a distant against high valuable targets.

The cone of fire changed as tiger suggested as well.

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Tiger1996
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Re: JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby Tiger1996 » 25 Nov 2017, 16:01

Warhawks97 wrote:Elephant and jagdpanzer have 65 standard range

You mean Elephant and JagdPanther?

That's interesting though.. always thought Elephant had same range as KT, but now I just re-checked...
And yes, it has same range as JagdPanther being 65.
==================================================
EDIT
Warhawks97 wrote:70 in stat mode and 75 ambush (JP)

Though, by the way... The Elephant range when the static position is activated jumps from 65 to 75, not 70. Meaning +10 more range!
==================================================
Warhawks97 wrote:If you ask me i would like to have 70 range for all tanks with this canon (88mm /L71). Jagdpanther, Nashorn, KT and Elephant. Stationary fire modes would add +5 range and in case of Jadpanther and nashorn further + 10 from ambush position. Elephant also with maybe a single long range shot ability.

Yup, that's something I would definitely like to see as well.
Elephant actually deserves the Accurate Long Range Shot ability more than any other tank!
That's why I suggested in the past if Elephant could get such an ability at range of 100 being same as the one of KT, but available at veterancy level 1 or even by default without requiring any veterancy levels. If it would be without any veterancy levels required, then the cost could be 100 ammo. If at veterancy level 1 then the cost could be around 85 ammo. If at veterancy level 2, the cost would have to go down to 50 ammo then...
That's how I imagine it.

Now regarding that:
Warhawks97 wrote:in return for these boosts:

Increase the reload speed for all of them to standard at least 7 seconds.

As well as that:
Warhawks97 wrote:Furthermore the Jagdpanther would be able to fire only one ambushed shot before revealing. The following reload would be quickly though (similiar to allied TD).

I would also have to agree.

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Jalis
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Re: JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby Jalis » 25 Nov 2017, 17:21

Especially for pvp, visuals flaws are not a serious problem ; it dont affect balance. You have plently others exemples nobody even noticed.

From my experience reducing angle of fire for turretless tank-hunters is not so a nerf. The survey angle stay the same. Even without players direct control the jagdpanther will simply pivot to target the ennemy. It will even not remove camo if any.

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Re: JagdPanther cone of fire.

Postby Tiger1996 » 25 Nov 2017, 17:55

It is for sure not a serious problem, however.. similar visual errors in the mod were recently fixed... Although being not too serious either.
Also given how BK Mod is currently being polished for the Steam release, then I had to point out this problem about the JagdPanther right there.

Me and Hawks also brought up our thoughts as suggestions to solve the problem, now the devs are definitely free to choose how exactly is the best way to fix it and when! Though, I would be happy to see any of the suggestions being considered. However, even if not.. then it's all fine after all.


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