The issue of "unfair" crawl

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MarKr
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The issue of "unfair" crawl

Postby MarKr » 21 Jun 2017, 21:47

I would like to address this here separately instead of coming back to it in every topic that at least remotely touches anything around BK doc...or Axis.

"crawl" of Storm troopers. One user likes to bring up this topic when almost whatever is discussed and swing with this "argument" left and right. The argument is (or "are" because this particular member used this thing to argument more points):
1) Storms don't have crawl by default and need to unlock it while now Infiltration rangers and Marine commandos have it without any unlock and thus it is "unfair"
2) Storms cannot crawl when they upgrade AT weapon while others can crawl with AT, so it is unfair to Storms
etc.

These points might seem valid if you strictly compare two units against each other but in the end even this argument falls short on some other aspects. If we want to compare units (really, don't do it, but for the sake of making point let's try it for this once) then you cannot simply focus on one aspect they have in common (in this case the ability to "crawl") but completely neglect other aspects and then demand some unification. An extreme example (and I intentionally say EXTREME example, so don't even try, you, particular member of this forum, to catch on this and say it is completely different) would be comparing Reg5 and AB engineers - they have in common that they are air-dropped and can reinforece anywhere but what they don't have in common is their role, price, possible weapon upgrades and in general the overall possibilities of their doctrines. So saying "Reg5 are very decent combat units, why AB engineers suck so much?" makes obviously no sense.
Back to the "crawl" thing - in its basic principle this example is the same as comparing Storms and Infiltration rangers, only these are not so obvious because they are not such an extreme.

Storms:
Cost 400MP (from HT; 450MP with command ability)
Each soldier has 95HP
Reinforcement cost is 38MP
They come equipped with Kar98 which have probably best stats of all Kar98 versions (except for sniper) and even better than Enfields of CW Tommies.
You can equip them with weapons:
MG42 good for "mid-long range" fire support squad
Stg44s good for close-mid range combat
So they can excel at both close and range fights.
Panzerschreck adds protection against vehicles (though after adding aim time, less effective than before)

With Storm training you get Vet1 automatically and Storms take 25% less damage from any source and get the ability to crawl.
You can have them after 2 CP - you can spawn them in empty buildings which enables you to get a Storms squad near the place where fighting is happening and thus get quickly an infantry unit into the fight (it is NOT an infiltration ability).
You can have 3 squads + Suppression squad + command squad + demo squad.

Infiltration rangers:
Cost 400MP (one unit comes with Ranger truck for 500MP)
Each soldier has 80HP
Reinforcement cost is 45MP
They come equipped with 5xThompsons and one upgraded bazooka. So you save some ammo on upgrades, however they are only effective at close range and at mid-long range they suck.
You can equip them with weapons:
None - only if you manage to pick up some dropped weapon.

With Ranger training they gain +10 max HP and gain XP faster by 50%.
You can have them after 4CP - you can only get them from Ranger trucks and only two squads.
Command aura from Ranger captain affects them but given their purpose in game you don't really often have them in his aura.

All in all - Storms are for the same price much more versatile with weapons (which require ammo investment, true), without any upgrades have more HP than Rangers (even with Vet unlock) and Storms Vet unlock gives them 25% damage resistance which even further increases their survivability. Rangers on the hand are specilized for close range combat, have less HP (which means "die faster") - that is why they have crawl right from the start, to get chance to use their weapons at ranges where they are effective.

And this gets us to the most important point - the role in the doctrine along with the options of the WHOLE doctrine. Storms are made to be MAIN combat force of BK doctrine. They have everything they need to fight enemy head-on-head and support their expensive but strong tanks (Tiger I/ Panther). So the concept here is that this infantry advances with tanks (there are also doctrinal and unit-related boosts to help with this tactics), tanks kill enemy tanks (and now with functional HE shots can eliminate even soft targets if needed) while Infantry provides cover from enemy infantry and/or AT guns that could threaten the tanks. Storms can be also boosted by command unit.

Infantry doctrine works completely different from the BK doctrine - their strongest tank is Sherman 76 so they need to deal with Axis heavy tanks in other ways - mostly by arty which is costly and unless you immobilize the tank with first shot the chances are that the tank just drives out of the area unharmed. Infiltration rangers are NOT meant to supoprt main attack pushes. They can clear out AT positions before advances, they can ambush infantry etc. - they can cause trouble behind lines but what can they really in main attack force with their thompsons (short range), abilities which consist mostly of throwing something at relatively close range and one zooka?

I could do very similar comparison to the new Marine Commandos.

So once and for all - Storms are not the same as Infiltration rangers/Marine commandos. And just because some unit has some ability limited by something doesn't mean that other unit with same ability needs to have that limitation too. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree but this is how it is and how it will stay.
This is our (dev team) standpoint on this and we consider this matter closed.
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Medic Truck
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Re: The issue of "unfair" crawl

Postby Medic Truck » 21 Jun 2017, 22:46

I am very new to BK mod and have checked on various stuff from different factions. I don't play one and just don't like others. I play with every factions and challenge myself on the uniqueness. I am learning constantly.

I saw this issue and the devs comments absolutely make sense. I feel there is a perspective here to be thrown that I feel is relevant. This is because of the play where one does not want to adapt to a particular doctrine and still wants that doctrine to do something which it isn't meant to.

I may as well cry and bitch about what USA infantry doc is weak as they lack punch but that is not true because it is BS. They have a playstyle that if YOU like as per your style, then use it. But, direct unit vs unit comparision in a game like this is very noobish analysis.

I agree with another user who said solutions' analysis should be done before going into just mindless comparision of one tank with another or one specialized unit with another.

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Tiger1996
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Re: The issue of "unfair" crawl

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Jun 2017, 22:50

MarKr wrote:I could do very similar comparison to the new Marine Commandos.

I am afraid not. I guess you still don't get my point...

Let's have a look at my older statements regarding this matter throughout the topic "New unit?" when I said the following:-
Tiger1996 wrote:
MarKr wrote:You described very similar scenarios when we announced crawl for infiltration rangers...

It's not the same argument, I was kinda "OK" with it when you announced crawl ability for infiltration Rangers.
Since that their load-out is always restricted and they have only 1 Bazooka.

But now we have a load-out free squad. This new Marine Commando squad can grab whatever they want.. and crawling with 6 Recoilles Rifle, 4 PIATs or 4 upgraded Bazookas doesn't seem fair when Storms are unable to crawl with just 1 Shreck!!!


As I can see you tried to explain how infiltration Rangers simply have different role, and therefore StormTroops don't really have to be the same.. which I kinda don't have any problems with.

And I actually said this before, but I guess I need to say it again then... I would have not complained any further about Storms after you improved infiltration Rangers. Only until I decided to raise the issue again AFTER I knew about adding the Marine Commandos!
MarKr wrote:You can equip them with weapons:
None - only if you manage to pick up some dropped weapon.

This is not correct, infiltration Rangers can't even pick up any weapons from the ground. Their load-out is completely restricted... And that's exactly why I think it's kinda fine how they could crawl by default, as I am not saying StormTroops have to be the same nor that it's unfair on this one.

The actual issue however, is the Marine Commandos... This is what might be really unfair. Because they CAN have whatever they want.. they are load-out free!!! They can equip MANY Bazookas and also crawl with them.
Keeping in mind RAF doc doesn't even need any improvements to their AT capabilities.. not to mention that when players complained about Gliders after implementing the 5 seconds delay, they said that Sten Commandos are now less effective because they can't get close enough to the enemy. But no one complained about lacking AT capabilities; while adding the Marine Commandos is apparently much more than just improving Gliders.
Because this way Marine Commandos would also improve AT capabilities of RAF doc significantly...

I just made it as short as possible, so thanks for reading.

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MarKr
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Re: The issue of "unfair" crawl

Postby MarKr » 21 Jun 2017, 23:55

Medic Truck wrote:I am very new to BK mod and have checked on various stuff from different factions. I don't play one and just don't like others. I play with every factions and challenge myself on the uniqueness. I am learning constantly.

I saw this issue and the devs comments absolutely make sense. I feel there is a perspective here to be thrown that I feel is relevant. This is because of the play where one does not want to adapt to a particular doctrine and still wants that doctrine to do something which it isn't meant to.

I may as well cry and bitch about what USA infantry doc is weak as they lack punch but that is not true because it is BS. They have a playstyle that if YOU like as per your style, then use it. But, direct unit vs unit comparision in a game like this is very noobish analysis.

I agree with another user who said solutions' analysis should be done before going into just mindless comparision of one tank with another or one specialized unit with another.
Hello, man, welcome to the forum and thanks for insights :).

Tiger1996 wrote:Keeping in mind RAF doc doesn't even need any improvements to their AT capabilities.. not to mention that when players complained about Gliders after implementing the 5 seconds delay, they said that Sten Commandos are now less effective because they can't get close enough to the enemy. But no one complained about lacking AT capabilities; while adding the Marine Commandos is apparently much more than just improving Gliders.
Because this way Marine Commandos would also improve AT capabilities of RAF doc significantly...
Yes, they don't need AT capabilities...and that is why we did NOT ADD AN AT UNIT! Do you see any AT weapons in their loadout? No. You say they might pick up MANY bazookas...ok, even if they could, what will happen? A doctrine whose main attack potential consists of infantry units and require sort of lot of micro to command them around effectivelly will drop SAS unit just to give 2 zookas to Marine commandos...ok, they have two zookas. Now you will run like crazy around the battlefield, hoping that some killed unit will drop more AT weapons and you will be able to pick them up...let's say that you have a team mate who plays AB and drops his units somewhere and for some reason leaves the AT weapons to you. If we ignore the fact that he is volunterily giving up on his own AT capabilities, fine, you have 6 zookas, Congrats! And now you will enter crawl mode with Marine commandos and....well...crawl with them into enemy territory. Find some tank that is not guarded by anything...provided that you will not crawl with your unit right under some Axis infantry which will wipe the floor with you because...you know...you have 6 zookas and nothing to kill them with...ok, let's say you find this one unit that you can destroy. Congrats! You just have just crawled for 10 minutes, sacrificing proper management of the rest of your soldiers and all of this for killing one unit. Great payoff...also I guess that after you shoot, you just retreat because any competent player will send there infantry and kill you. OK, so you retreated. Now start again crawling...If you are willing to go through all this crap just to kill one unit somewhere, then fine by me.

Let's make a deal - Let's wait until the patch is released and IF people will abuse this whole thing, we can tweak it.
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Tiger1996
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Re: The issue of "unfair" crawl

Postby Tiger1996 » 22 Jun 2017, 01:50

Thing is, even SAS with 4 Bazookas are currently quite effective whenever i use them.. and they can't crawl.
I think this old game-play video by me could be a clear example for this; you don't have to watch the whole game of course, since it was very long.. but you can at least randomly pick some scenes from it.
Or if you have the time, then maybe enjoy watching all of it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4sNOLvC4hU

But alright, i am fine with the deal.. let's first see how it works!

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: The issue of "unfair" crawl

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 22 Jun 2017, 08:50

Who said the Royal Marine Commandos have bazookas? who?... and like Mark said, this new unit can be tweaked if needed.
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