Behavior on the Forums

This forum related stuff. Problems? Suggestions? Here.
kwok
Posts: 1061
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Behavior on the Forums

Postby kwok » 31 May 2016, 05:55

For a long time I've talked about how the behaviors of people in the community driving people away and keeping the environment healthy. I've always tried to avoid bringing up specific instances because the last thing I wanted was to turn things into a blame war rather than trying to fix a general problem. But, I was recently advised that publicly substantiating my claims with specific anecdotes is a better way to go about making change.
My purpose is to bring up specific examples of "what not to be" and convince the moderators that the examples are worth being punished for the better of the community.

Frequently repeat offenders breakdown general efforts of well-intent people and community leaders. Normally, rules and guidelines are there to protect people from being dragged down. While it wouldn't be efficient to be so iron-fisted in all rules, there are some that I think are worth being stricter on than currently. There are two rules constantly being broken that I think need to be adhered to more closely and deserve more punishment than currently given.

2. No spam, no flaming.That means no threads inciting flames or mindless chatter. Profanity is to be kept to a minimum: while permitted in context, excessive swearing will not be tolerated. Personal attacks - 'flames' - are strictly prohibited.
2.1 Don't post in an obnoxious manner.
This includes abusing the colour and size tags, spamming images or smilies all over the place, and generally creating an eyesore. The use of internet forum pictures specifically designed for posting in threads is prohibited; examples would be things like "WTF," "Thread Necromancy," or anything with kittens in it and a witty caption, like "Even Kittens can't save this thread" etc.
(full rules: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15)

I mentioned repeat offenders that prevent progress in the community that frequently break the rules above. The offenders that I think are Sukinkot, Tiger1996, and Armacalic. While they have had their constructive moments, they've also frequently driven people away from worthwhile discussion and even participation in the forums. This directly undermines the values of a community-focused mod.

For the sake of being concise, I'll try to limit my thoughts on broader ideas but wouldn't have an issue going deeper if a reader thinks it is worth reading.

Sukin-kot often makes remarks that are condescending to players. While it's understandable that he suspects they are trolls and only insults when he thinks that person has non-honest motives in the forum, it is unbecoming to insult a troll especially when there is a chance that it is an honest person.
Stick wrote:This is why I never post to forums, because of dickheads like Sukin-kot, so I'm done here, I'll deal with it.

Clearly there is visible impact on the community on Sukin's actions. He is clearly banworthy but maybe it isn't necessary to ban if he changes his tone. Since being called out on his behavior, Sukin hasn't really really insulted others.

The last statement can't really be said about all my examples mentioned above, unfortunately. There are some repeat offenders that clearly have not changed and do not seem to have any inclination to.
Tiger1996 has repeatedly incited flames, insulted, and spread lies about people.
One softer offense he commits is his spamming. He often makes non-valuable and sarcastic emoticons, frequently brings up topics that have been recently been closed by a soft consensus, and makes complaints without first making complete assessments.

Butterkeks wrote:But try to activeley participate in a discussion. He will overtake it, spread his BS and insult you for wanting a balanced game. Everytime you post anything he will reply with the same BS he already wrote. Guess why the "inspiring for perfection" topic has 14 pages.

Also there are statements like
"I won't allow to nerf that"
"I won't let it happen"
"I will change it like that. So accept it."


Another more serious offense is the libel he spreads. One of the difficult troubles with forums is that there are limited windows into a person's personality and heart. It is especially difficult when channels like private messaging, steam, single-side game recordings can easily hide and cover up truths. Tiger has often given inaccurate portrayals of people. I trust that most people would take his words with a grain of salt, but that shouldn't be an excuse to allow such behavior.
He also frequently incites off-topic and value degrading discussions. It has happened so frequently and angered enough people that there have been multiple posts dedicated to complaining about his behavior. While the posts themselves are just as bad as the person, I bring them up just to show the extent of how tired people are of Tiger. This actually brings me to the next example of "who not to be" as it is a direct product of Tiger as a value-degrader.

Tiger has made many enemies, many of which who act in an extremely banworthy manner (as mentioned from the anti-tiger posts above), but none come close to Armacalic.
Armacalic has essentially made 90% of his posts to point out the flaws in Tiger's arguments and insult him as a person. Nearly none of Armacalic's posts have to do with the game except perhaps a satire of this mod's community. Maybe he is out to make a point, but it isn't really the best way. It drives discussions far away from the original intent and just incites more flames. It's hard to say if he is really just a product of Tiger or if he is normally this toxic. Either way, it doesn't help. If he isn't punished then at least remove the variable that could potentially be the cause for all his toxicity.
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=101

I may be presumptuous and overstepping my humility when I ask for moderators to hammer down on specific people, but I want to at least publicly and objectively show that the lack in any guidance from the moderators has created an environment that frequently hinders progress. I'm not asking for strict adherence to the guidelines, just consider having a heavier hand in driving the community.

User avatar
Jagdpanther
Posts: 212
Joined: 15 Dec 2014, 03:33
Location: Romania

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Jagdpanther » 31 May 2016, 14:43

There are 10 people left that are active on this forum and you want to ban 3 of them? Im pretty sure im on your radar too since my latest thread inspired this thread but i didn't achieved my required level of "bad behavior" yet to be put on this list so i guess that's why you didnt mentioned me. Go ahead, i would be glad to be on your black list of people who have the balls to speak their mind.

"How to make everyone happy? Kill (in this case ban) everyone that's unhappy." I think we all know where this idiom is originating from.
Image

kwok
Posts: 1061
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby kwok » 31 May 2016, 15:26

Wow, it's almost like you barely read my post and made crazy assumptions on a few sentences out of context. Great added value.

But maybe it was my own failure to communicate my thoughts.
Yes, I realize that punishing the few members already existing in the forums would make a big impact on numbers. But, the point I wanted to make was its the behavior that is the reason why so few people participate in forums. I don't know how many people I have heard say the main reason they don't go on forums is because "i don't like all the politics, shouting, and complaining." Even I didn't want to go on forums for a long time. My first post was about just fixing my game.
In the same line of logic, there are countless of people who also have said they stopped playing BK because they're just tired of the people. Again, (I only want to speak anecdotally until I can ask if I can use their story or not as an example) I stopped playing BK because until I think people act differently it really isn't worth getting back into the game and just facing the same aggravating complaints, toxicity, noob-kicking elitists, game stackers who go out and make fun of noobs that make this community so small.
One thing you're right about JP is that the community has gotten small. The reason is because some group of elitists in the game decided that it's their game, not the community's, and basically hijacked the experience for everyone else with their kicking and complaining.

User avatar
Tiger1996
Posts: 3142
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 15:53
Location: I'm from Egypt, but I live in Qatar.
Contact:

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 May 2016, 16:44

kwok wrote:The offenders that I think are Sukinkot, Tiger1996, and Armacalic.

U forgot some people I think... Butterkeks, maybe JimQwilleran and Kwok too :D Add Hawks as well if u want :P
Almost everyone went off-topic before! ^^

Good luck with that... :lol:

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 840
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 31 May 2016, 16:51

Ye, ban will help.

kwok
Posts: 1061
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby kwok » 31 May 2016, 17:33

Tiger you're right that there are many others who have committed wrongs including myself. But the difference I want to make with the people I've listed and people I didn't is repeat offending and unwillingness to change.
Butterkeks has since spoken out poorly after talking with him about bknc and the direction of the community.
I can also vouch for illa'a character and his discipline to not pounce out harder. Put it this way, I don't think shadow and I would've asked him to be a cofounder for bknc if we even had the slightest doubt in his character. He has since stopped directly chasing you.
Hawks to my knowledge has never acted in an poor manner aside from the occasional condescending remark that is more so a rhetoric tool than an insult.
Sukin has been in much better mood and I know right now is always trying to invite players because I think he realizes too that behavior is the disease in this community not balance. He too has changed.
Hell, even armacalic has promise to change. I sat and talked with him recently and turns out he is really intelligent, has plenty of constructive things to say. Now he is helping me with my mod in coh2. He hardly posts here anymore anyways.
Now it seems like all these characters have more or less left. Now it seems like there's no one left for you to make enemies with, you turn around to incite flames from me? Fine I'll take the bait but I'm going to try to handle this differently than everyone else before.

The difference is I've had conversations with so many people because I sincerely want to make this a better place. Each time there are some frightening commonalities. It seems like a lot of us are trying to get to a better place but you hinder the change almost every time. The conversation always seems to come back to you. I don't know what private messages you send or whatever you do that makes people so upset at you, but I wish I can show the difference in conversations I've had with them offline compared to you. The times I had to literally tell people "let tiger be for some time and I'll try to talk him myself."

I tried to handle this all privately to keep the forums clean, and you know this too from the many times we've spoken. But every time tiger, it goes back to you somehow and shit just happens. (Maybe not with jp this one time but in the past too many). Maybe if it's public now, even if what you say isn't sincere, we can openly go back and hold you accountable to whatever words you say here. Cuz it seems despite every effort to keep you out of trouble you somehow get yourself into trouble.

kwok
Posts: 1061
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby kwok » 31 May 2016, 18:16

But this wasn't about you at first. This was about getting devs to be more active in moderating the forum. The discussion just somehow gravitated to you, thanks for helping me pinpoint a source of a problem.

User avatar
Panzerblitz1
Team Member
Posts: 1327
Joined: 24 Nov 2014, 00:12
Location: Paris, right under the Eiffel tower.

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 01 Jun 2016, 12:16

Before releasing the big Hammer, i will say something here, its a forum, sometimes it goes south but in general and i appreciate that its coming back to his center, WE (the team) check everything, i mean EVERYTHING, and we will warn people who are borderline, but i can say, even if sometimes it goes south like i said, you guys are enough smart to cool down, apologize and come back to normal to be more constructive, so shit happens, but we aren't a kid garden, so behave and enjoy the ride.
Image

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 1819
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby MarKr » 01 Jun 2016, 14:33

I think kwok's point was that often before we step in and tell them to cool down, they manage to drive off newcomers. He has a point in the fact that if someone breaks the forum rules we just calm them down and warn them not to do it and threaten them with ban. This would be kinda OK if it was just for the first time they break the rules but it happens even with repeated rule breaking.
So in the end what is the message they get from this? "I can do what I want, I can drive off newcomers as I like with my insults/burning them down...as long as I back off a little when one of the devs tells me.". Perhaps if temporal bans were issued here and there, people might in the future choose the polite(er) way of talking to others.
Image

kwok
Posts: 1061
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby kwok » 01 Jun 2016, 17:21

Thanks for the transparency in discussion among devs.

Markr summed up what I had to say pretty nicely. The only thing I want to add is that I don't believe that people naturally want to drive newcomers away (except maybe for balance change lobbying which sort of happens). But the environment that's created because people feel safe enough to say rude things keeps people away.

Plenty of people recognize this "immunity".
While I can come up with many examples, one of the best examples commented above:

Tiger1996 wrote:U forgot some people I think... Butterkeks, maybe JimQwilleran and Kwok too :D Add Hawks as well if u want :P
Almost everyone went off-topic before! ^^

Good luck with that... :lol:


Tiger went from goading on another post to boasting on this post. This isn't his first time around flaunting his immunity. He isn't the first to either, but others had a bit more civility to cool down anyways. Tiger on the other hand goes around talking about how he is such great friends with the devs and would never be punished, even threatening others that THEY would be banned as if he had that authority.

Is that an offense? Eh maybe you can make a case that he is fanning flames but the point of the example was people know they're not going to be punished. If you wanted examples of more inappropriate things he has said, I wouldn't have a problem bringing those up. But I think he made a reputation for himself already.

User avatar
Panzerblitz1
Team Member
Posts: 1327
Joined: 24 Nov 2014, 00:12
Location: Paris, right under the Eiffel tower.

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 01 Jun 2016, 17:29

Im aware of that, lets say, its their last chances to behave normaly as "adults" if not, the next similar problem will be hammered, and for those who are concerned by that, just F####g behave, they will be no pre-warning no more, i remind you that WE the team are in charge, not you, and WE the team will choose whats best for our mod, not you, got it?
Image

kwok
Posts: 1061
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby kwok » 01 Jun 2016, 17:46

Sorry, didn't mean to offend and overstep my bounds. I totally respect and see you all as the leaders of the mod. The purpose of this post is to bring your attention to a problem I see and hopefully provide a window to the game community.
You say you give warning first and will ban without warning the second time around, but that has happened so rarely that I honestly feel people question the dev team's leadership. Sorry for the bluntness, I don't mean to offend, but just saying "we are in charge, got it?" doesn't alter the reality. I WANT you to be in charge and for people to start treating you all like you're in charge. This is the goal of this thread. I want to make this open for people to see and question so that real changes can start happening.

If it isn't too presumptuous of me to try to relate the problem differently and how it impacts devs:
There was a post by Warhawks on a different thread mentioning how few players play anymore. This decay has been the reality for some time. A lot say they left because of people and more might say for balance reasons. Balance reasons I think is still a people issue because of how closed and hostile forum environment is. It is not the devs fault that balance is an issue because most of the time devs aren't even the ones coming through with the suggestions. Devs only change what they can investigate through forums. Yet, devs still get the shit for game problems because people are shitty.
This is just another harder to prove indirect area forum behavior hurts the game.

User avatar
Butterkeks
Posts: 492
Joined: 23 Dec 2014, 17:42
Location: Germany

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Butterkeks » 01 Jun 2016, 18:54

Well, as Kwok send me the link to this topic I thought of adding some things to this topic.

I left the forums some months ago - and like Kwok correctly said - only because I was completely done with dealing with Tiger in every single fucking topic.
I don't think that I have to point out again why I think like that. There's a reason why I always call him community destroyer.
So, for me and many others I know, the reason we left is that one single guy that figured out that he can do everything here without getting banned.

Devs watching every single topic and talking to people?
You got to be fucking kidding me. If that's true, you guys do a horrible job. 5 pages of flame wars until a mod even THINKS about stepping in.
And even if you do, it's actually just Markr telling people to calm down. The only action I've ever seen by a mod was when Wolf deleted some posts in a topic I created called "Ignoring Tiger1996". That was a topic only created to start a flame war vs tiger. How many pages did it have? 10? 15?
15 pages only flaming. For what was said in this topic, you would have to ban half of the forums. There was so much rage against this guy and it was all let out. The consequence? A few posts that were REALLY insultive got deleted. Wow.

If you guys would apply your own rules, Tiger had got a lifetime ban 2 years ago. If you would have banned one single member (tiger1996), this forum would now have at least 10 members more (person who I personally know that stopped psting because of that guy).

If you want to see a good moderated forum visit the War Thunder Forum. You only think about being insultive? get a warning, mate. Be more friendly next time. And you know what? It works perfectly fine, BECAUSE they are so harsh.

Well, that's my two cents on this topic.
Now I can go back to more friendly communities.

User avatar
Jagdpanther
Posts: 212
Joined: 15 Dec 2014, 03:33
Location: Romania

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Jagdpanther » 01 Jun 2016, 19:20

Butterkeks wrote:If you guys would apply your own rules, Tiger had got a lifetime ban 2 years ago. If you would have banned one single member (tiger1996), this forum would now have at least 10 members more (person who I personally know that stopped psting because of that guy).


Wow i never knew this guy had such a negative impact that makes people go and we would win 10 members by banning him. Cant you just, i dont know.... ignore him???

I think all of you who are against him are too sensitive. I wouldn't give a flying fuck if someone starts a topic arguing against me, i would actually enjoy it. :D

Stop posting on this forum trying to contribute for a better mod just because of one guy??? That's out of this world for me at least.

community destroyer
OMFG what a reputation :shock:
Image

User avatar
Tiger1996
Posts: 3142
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 15:53
Location: I'm from Egypt, but I live in Qatar.
Contact:

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Tiger1996 » 01 Jun 2016, 19:27

kwok wrote:But this wasn't about you at first.

U mention my name almost in every second post.. then claiming that it isn't mainly targeted at me somehow? But well, though lacking free time.. I guess I surely still have the right to defend myself replying some of ur points maybe as short as possible.

kwok wrote:Tiger went from goading on another post

Which one exactly u mean? I just can't get it.
I think I recently haven't made any problems with anyone over here at any threads btw... As it's probably Jagdpanther who was a little bit too agressive through this Steam greenlight topic! So, I would really like to understand about what was ur motivations to submit such a topic right now? Just seems pretty weird timing.

kwok wrote:Now it seems like all these characters have more or less left.

Which exact characters has actually left? I can see them all around. Excepting perhaps Butterkeks... But, do u really think he did that because of being tired of me?? Well, I highly doubt. Because in fact... He was never really interested into participating on the forum. Even before I manage to come.. but when I did, he definitely became more interested. As we used to quarrel since the very begining ever since we met on the game. We never liked each other anyway. So, I believe his absence does have nothing to with certain someone's behaviour at all... As he became interested to participate on the forum only to bring me down as he hated me personally for different many other reasons apart from my behaviour on the forum.

Now it's that he had probably became just tired as he finally realized he will never be able to take me out although he tried so many times.. but each time, he failed.
Or it's that he simply doesn't care for BK anymore. Of which I presume is the actual reason why he does no longer participate, for some long time right now...

And if he really doesn't care for BK which is pretty much the case, then he doesn't have to be here anyway.
Note aside; it was actually MarKr himself who stopped Keks from directly "insulting" me the last time when he did.

kwok wrote:Plenty of people recognize this "immunity".

On the other hand, I managed to contribute way much more.. as I actually even brought lots of new players to sign up to this forum as well as to playing btw... That's why I lasted longer while others like Keks didn't. It's clearly because I am truly devoted to this mod.. as I supported for real. And it's not because I am "immune" or anything similar...

kwok wrote:Now it seems like there's no one left for you to make enemies with, you turn around to incite flames from me? Fine I'll take the bait but I'm going to try to handle this differently than everyone else before.

So again, how exactly did I offend u or whatever?
Ah, wait.. are u speaking of that post over there which I wrote as a response to u through the Steam greenlight topic??
If yes, then just to clarifiy.. it was actually u who suddenly tried to offend me for no reasons.. but more or less in a sneaky way.
However, that even JimQwilleran figured it out as he/she obviously commented ur post instantly too.

Now, until this moment.. u didn't answer my question though.
Why did u say "I'm too much of a coward" to directly mention the name of the person of whom u were speaking about?

kwok wrote:I sincerely want to make this a better place.

Pretty exposed enough. Not true...
Want a proof?
Ok.

Fact is, u seem like to even no longer belong to this place at all. As u have mentioned urself before.. that u have actually stopped playing BK ever since then. So, why even bother coming to this forum?

Frankly speaking, u r only trying to spread ur hatred towards me while being under the cover of so called civility. That's ur only task up here... Nothing of a value.

Want another proof?
U just sent him the link of this thread (according to him) only in order for him to come and write something against me and then leave again for god knows how long time.

Claiming that some specific person is the reason to abandon the whole forum is quite silly... As it surely can't be because of this. Obviously u left only because u don't care about Bk anymore.
We don't need u here, if really so...

User avatar
Jagdpanther
Posts: 212
Joined: 15 Dec 2014, 03:33
Location: Romania

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Jagdpanther » 01 Jun 2016, 19:39

On the other hand, I managed to contribute way much more.. as I actually even brought lots of new players to sign up to this forum and to playing btw... That's why I lasted longer while others like Keks didn't. It's clearly because I am truly devoted to this mod.. as I supported for real. And it's not because I am "immune" or anything similar...


I dont know what you wrote in your 1900 posts but from the few i read my gut tells me you're a true fan of this mod.

Sometimes people dont agree with each other and thats what a democratic system should be, from his 1900 posts 90% of them are insults towards other people? I dont think so, im defending this guy even tho i met him a few weeks ago by playing a few games with him. The guy told me he plays the mod from public computers paying by hour and has the mod installed on a external HDD! If that's not passion then i dont know what is.
Image

User avatar
Tiger1996
Posts: 3142
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 15:53
Location: I'm from Egypt, but I live in Qatar.
Contact:

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Tiger1996 » 01 Jun 2016, 19:44

The guy told me he plays the mod from public computers paying by hour and has the mod installed on a external HDD! If that's not passion then i dont know what is.

Haha, yes :D I have been going to internet caffes recently in order to have a game.. as I won't have my laptop with me until I am back hopefully after 2 weeks from now ^^
Thx, just don't get urself into any troubles.. these guys are not normal.

User avatar
Panzerblitz1
Team Member
Posts: 1327
Joined: 24 Nov 2014, 00:12
Location: Paris, right under the Eiffel tower.

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 01 Jun 2016, 19:50

Butterkeks wrote:Devs watching every single topic and talking to people?
You got to be fucking kidding me.


Yes we do, and i don't want this topic goes south again... so lets start fresh, and stop ranting and whining even more, it is understood.

Tiger1996 wrote:we don't want you anymore here.
Tiger, i think you need to cool down now, and we only decide who is welcome here or not, don't go that way you might regret it, I DON'T WANT THAT NO MORE HERE!
Image

User avatar
Tiger1996
Posts: 3142
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 15:53
Location: I'm from Egypt, but I live in Qatar.
Contact:

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Tiger1996 » 01 Jun 2016, 20:00

I didn't really mean it that way.. as I wanted to say in other words; that if he has no more interest in BK, then he doesn't have to bother coming to BK forum.

But alright sir ^^ I definitely understand!

kwok
Posts: 1061
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby kwok » 01 Jun 2016, 20:00

Only at your permission Panzerblitz, can I get at least a right to respond? I'll admit he does ask some fair questions. But, if you want this to stop I'll stop.

User avatar
Panzerblitz1
Team Member
Posts: 1327
Joined: 24 Nov 2014, 00:12
Location: Paris, right under the Eiffel tower.

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 01 Jun 2016, 20:05

I don't want to loose my time here hearing this kind of stuff, if people miss behave, you have a "report" button, click it and we will check that.
Image

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 1819
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Behavior on the Forums

Postby MarKr » 01 Jun 2016, 20:11

Guys, enough said.
To sum it up:
Behave according to the forum rules (for those of you who don't know what that is: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15) or deal with consequences (viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18).

If someone writes a post that you consider to provoke flaming or outright insulting, contact us via PM or use the "Report" button.
Locking the topic.
Image


Return to “Forum Stuff”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest