Tank Aces

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Wake
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Tank Aces

Postby Wake » 13 Dec 2014, 16:36

So, as it is right now in BK 1, there are many tank aces that can be called in. But what exactly are these units? Let's take the pershing ace for example. It isn't simply a pershing with vet 4. The tank is its own unit called "Pershing Ace", that, on top of that, comes with vet 3 and a tank commander.

Can someone dig up the files and see what the difference between a standard, built pershing with vet 3 is and a called-in pershing ace with vet 3 is? Some players suggest that the ace tanks are simply a way to "cheat" and instead of building a tank and getting kills with it and making it vet 3 yourself, you spend more resources to get a vet 3 tank right away. But it's not actually like that because the ace tanks are their own separate units.

Also, remember that all the tank aces come with a tank commander. All of this seems odd, because the "Ace" tank probably has better values than a "normal" tank at vet 0. But then add on to that, the "Ace" tank gets vet 3 right away and a tank commander, to boost those values that already got boosted.

So the point is, for BK 2, should tank ace call-ins be their own separate units, or just simply a standard tank that comes with high veterancy?

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Last edited by Wake on 23 Dec 2014, 21:10, edited 3 times in total.
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Wolf
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Re: Tank Aces

Postby Wolf » 13 Dec 2014, 16:40

Tank veterancy on BK1 aces will be reduced in next patch btw.
And nobody said that in BK2 there have to be Aces.
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Wake
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Re: Tank Aces

Postby Wake » 13 Dec 2014, 18:59

Wolf wrote:Tank veterancy on BK1 aces will be reduced in next patch btw.
And nobody said that in BK2 there have to be Aces.


I agree with this. BK2 shouldn't have aces, veterancy should be earned manually by skilled players, not something you pay for. That was one of the biggest complaints with the original CoH, how Wehrmacht could buy veterancy and everyone else had to earn it.

BK2 should just call in heavy, unique tanks. In BK1, all heavy tank call ins are also aces. The Jagdtiger can't even be built normally, but the only one available, is a Jagdtiger Ace. Same with the Churchill Crocodile.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Tank Aces

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Dec 2014, 19:11

Wake wrote:
Wolf wrote:Tank veterancy on BK1 aces will be reduced in next patch btw.
And nobody said that in BK2 there have to be Aces.


I agree with this. BK2 shouldn't have aces, veterancy should be earned manually by skilled players, not something you pay for. That was one of the biggest complaints with the original CoH, how Wehrmacht could buy veterancy and everyone else had to earn it.

BK2 should just call in heavy, unique tanks. In BK1, all heavy tank call ins are also aces. The Jagdtiger can't even be built normally, but the only one available, is a Jagdtiger Ace. Same with the Churchill Crocodile.





Jagdtiger and elephant and Jumbo and SP are no aces. But some of them have Tank commanders, others dont.

I agree with the first part and as i already said in other posts i would prefer having no ace call ins at all. Aces should be made by players skills and nothing you pay for.

In vcoh 1 WE tank vets did give mostly only turret Mg with vet 2 and skirts on vet 3. So the Tank vets there are mostly upgrades of the tanks, not an improvment of the crew just btw.

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BffWithDEATH
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Re: Tank Aces

Postby BffWithDEATH » 13 Dec 2014, 21:33

The Ace units are rediculous.
They start off with all upgrades and max veterency for both tank and commander and furthermore have extra abilities which make them 3x more powerful than a regular variant and to be honest they are not much more expensive,
I would go as far as to say they are cheaper as they only cost manpower no fuel required..

Take the Tiger Ace for example, this unit can charge an army of units head on, kill them all and not receive any damage at all.
then compare it to a regular Tiger, this unit is still very powerfull but it cannot charge an entire army head on kill them all and not receive any damage.. it might kill them all with some micro and support but it will likely receive some damage.
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QWERTYAndreas
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Re: Tank Aces

Postby QWERTYAndreas » 13 Dec 2014, 23:46

Reffering to my own topic, i think tank vet should be with "commanders" and not tanks: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=45

In BK2 you can have a high vet tank crew, but in a figth you have two choices: Risk to Loose the vetted crew, and stay in the figth - or abandon the tank, leaving a repairable tank for the enemy (if you cannot destroy it by other means).
Tank crews doesnt add bonusses to the tanks armor, gun etc - but sigth, reload time, aim time and so on.
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Re: Tank Aces

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 14 Dec 2014, 11:18

Wolf wrote:Tank veterancy on BK1 aces will be reduced in next patch btw.
And nobody said that in BK2 there have to be Aces.

So, another patch about nerfing, limiting and reducing? boring...

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Re: Tank Aces

Postby cookbros.racing » 14 Dec 2014, 11:49

BffWithDEATH wrote:The Ace units are rediculous.
They start off with all upgrades and max veterency ...


The Tiger I ACE starts not with max veterancy sure it starts shown as Vet. 3 but if you look at the squad_veterancy_file you can see the ACE has it´s own three veterancy stages if reaching 3700/7400/14800 experience_value points so even the ACE is performing better with more kills.

Furthermore you can´t built a Top Gunner at the ACE so it won´t start with all upgrades, too.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Tank Aces

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Dec 2014, 14:33

cookbros.racing wrote:
BffWithDEATH wrote:The Ace units are rediculous.
They start off with all upgrades and max veterency ...


The Tiger I ACE starts not with max veterancy sure it starts shown as Vet. 3 but if you look at the squad_veterancy_file you can see the ACE has it´s own three veterancy stages if reaching 3700/7400/14800 experience_value points so even the ACE is performing better with more kills.

Furthermore you can´t built a Top Gunner at the ACE so it won´t start with all upgrades, too.



No MG gunner but therefore the main gun and coaxial are pretty deadly on them and also tigerphobia and S mine launcher. I turned a lost game when i followed the commandos up to their glider, activated tigerphobia and killed all sas and commandos (8 squads or more) with S mines as they were just about to retreat to HQ truck. Also you have no top MG gunner but therefore smoke.

In fact you pay 1240 mp and 155 fuel for one tiger vet 0. and 125 ammo for gunsight etc. The ace cost just 1750mp (and 75 fuel for tank depot upgrade) and has all gunsight upgrades etc, vet 3 and commander vet 3, all abilties unlocked and also an additional stormtooper squad with stgs. Adding those Stormtooper with stgs to normal tiger a Tiger with stormtooper would cost 1690 mp, 155 fuel and 175 ammo!


So an ace is definately much more cost effective than self made tiger ace.


Pershing is the same. 1170 mp, 160 fuel and 125 ammo for normal persh with commander and upgrades or 1450 for rdy upgraded ace tank and commander.... its obvious or?


No aces for BK 2 sounds good. Dont even think about it wolf:)

Maybe we should open a new discussion to BK1 part of the forum and add the final posts to it as they have nothing to do with the original post that aimed at BK2.

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Re: Tank Aces

Postby Tiger1996 » 14 Dec 2014, 18:27

I surely have talked about that before too... Aces are not a good idea! That's why I asked before on the old forums to replace the Churchill Ace with a captured green Panther G, also that's why I asked to totally remove the Pershing Ace while to set the SP as to be main but to delay it with 2 more CPs and to make it about 700MP cheaper... But removing the Tiger Ace too??? NO! ^^ Tiger Ace is extracted on from the idea of Wittmann and many other Tiger tank legendary crews. The Tiger Ace is the only Ace that should never be removed!! It should be also represented on Bk2 as well!!! But with only a single time call in during a game... Exactly like the original CoH 2 Tiger Ace tank. Same should be done with the Tiger Ace of Bk1..

Well, I am probably the player who has the most use of the Tigers. I mean.. I always use them! So I very well know about them... The Ace Tiger is nothing but a normal already Vet 3 Tiger tank but also equipped with just a distinguished S-Mine anti inf ability. That's all the difference as I can feel it!

@Bff; Any Vet 4 Tiger or any other tank with also a Vet 3 tank commander will be surely harder to be damaged.. it's not only about the Ace Tiger I mean.

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Re: Tank Aces

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Dec 2014, 18:42

Tiger1996 wrote:I surely have talked about that before too... Aces are not a good idea! That's why I asked before on the old forums to replace the Churchill Ace with a captured green Panther G, also that's why I asked to totally remove the Pershing Ace while to set the SP as to be main but to delay it with 2 more CPs and to make it about 700MP cheaper... But removing the Tiger Ace too??? NO! ^^ Tiger Ace is extracted on from the idea of Wittmann and many other Tiger tank legendary crews. The Tiger Ace is the only Ace that should never be removed!! It should be also represented on Bk2 as well!!! But with only a single time call in during a game... Exactly like the original CoH 2 Tiger Ace tank. Same should be done with the Tiger Ace of Bk1..

Well, I am probably the player who has the most use of the Tigers. I mean.. I always use them! So I very well know about them... The Ace Tiger is nothing but a normal already Vet 3 Tiger tank but also equipped with just a distinguished S-Mine anti inf ability. That's all the difference as I can feel it!

@Bff; Any Vet 4 Tiger or any other tank with also a Vet 3 tank commander will be surely harder to be damaged.. it's not only about the Ace Tiger I mean.



I dont mind. Replace persh ace and let SP as single call in or a new doc ability.
Replace church ace with vet 0 church crocc for 800 mp (and nerf efficency against against axis Heavy Tanks if its not done with vet removal)
Leave The Tiger Ace as single call in and move it to Terror doc right after KT unlock. (So Terror would have Tigers, Tiger II and Tiger legend and BK doc simply Panthers)

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Re: Tank Aces

Postby BffWithDEATH » 14 Dec 2014, 22:42

Tiger1996 wrote:I surely have talked about that before too... Aces are not a good idea! That's why I asked before on the old forums to replace the Churchill Ace with a captured green Panther G, also that's why I asked to totally remove the Pershing Ace while to set the SP as to be main but to delay it with 2 more CPs and to make it about 700MP cheaper... But removing the Tiger Ace too??? NO! ^^ Tiger Ace is extracted on from the idea of Wittmann and many other Tiger tank legendary crews. The Tiger Ace is the only Ace that should never be removed!! It should be also represented on Bk2 as well!!! But with only a single time call in during a game... Exactly like the original CoH 2 Tiger Ace tank. Same should be done with the Tiger Ace of Bk1..

Well, I am probably the player who has the most use of the Tigers. I mean.. I always use them! So I very well know about them... The Ace Tiger is nothing but a normal already Vet 3 Tiger tank but also equipped with just a distinguished S-Mine anti inf ability. That's all the difference as I can feel it!

@Bff; Any Vet 4 Tiger or any other tank with also a Vet 3 tank commander will be surely harder to be damaged.. it's not only about the Ace Tiger I mean.


I'm aware that Tiger's that gain vet can become similarly as powerful.
The point is it was a good example to show how crazy the cost/effectiveness is to get a unit that has already high vet without any work that actually calculates to be cheaper than it's standard variant..

Vet or No vet tanks are not invulnerable so charging a frontline of AT weapons and Infantry fireing directly at you with absolutly no support is completely absurd...

I don't care which tank it is, it's a unit capable of charging 3 x 17pounders 2 x 6pounders piats and 6 x rifle sections 2 x Cromwells and 1 x Firefly while being buttoned and kill them all without taking damage? and without any infantry support required?

Tiger's are supposed to sit back and use range to their advantage not charge heavy AT guns frontally under heavy fire!
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Re: Tank Aces

Postby QWERTYAndreas » 14 Dec 2014, 23:50

Tiger aces are against the game mechanics. SO is every vetted call-in.

It doesn't encourage keeping men alive. Its just... spam.
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Re: Tank Aces

Postby Tiger1996 » 15 Dec 2014, 03:32

@Warhawks;
Replacing the Churchill Croc Ace with a Vet 0 normal Churchill Croc tank that is available for 800 MP for infinite times to be called in is surely also a very good idea specifically if making a green captured Panther G model is not possible.

But how and why u want to move the Tiger Ace to be in the Terror doctrine as a result?! What is going to be there instead of the Tiger Ace item existed in the Blitz doc then??? Nothing??!!
Note: I guess that the Ace Tiger should be already Vet 4 then if it's going to be available or only to be called for a single time...

@Bff;
A Tiger tank, or even a bigger and a stronger tank.. can noway do such heroic job if it wasn't very well commanded. It's surely not that completely invulnerable as u claim! I have seen many noob Axis players just throw their 3 Tigers in front of my defenses while hoping that they will crush everything o.O So their Tigers indeed just died there like Jeeps and nothing more.

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Re: Tank Aces

Postby BffWithDEATH » 15 Dec 2014, 08:34

Tiger1996 wrote:@Warhawks;
Replacing the Churchill Croc Ace with a Vet 0 normal Churchill Croc tank that is available for 800 MP for infinite times to be called in is surely also a very good idea specifically if making a green captured Panther G model is not possible.

But how and why u want to move the Tiger Ace to be in the Terror doctrine as a result?! What is going to be there instead of the Tiger Ace item existed in the Blitz doc then??? Nothing??!!
Note: I guess that the Ace Tiger should be already Vet 4 then if it's going to be available or only to be called for a single time...

@Bff;
A Tiger tank, or even a bigger and a stronger tank.. can noway do such heroic job if it wasn't very well commanded. It's surely not that completely invulnerable as u claim! I have seen many noob Axis players just throw their 3 Tigers in front of my defenses while hoping that they will crush everything o.O So their Tigers indeed just died there like Jeeps and nothing more.


Yeah, I also agree with Warhawks on that one.
I made this point quite a few times now in TS discussions etc as the Croc was the most produced churchill I still don't understand the idea of turning it into a single use ace, the time would have been better spent creating a Black Prince Churchill instead!

As for the Tigers, they used to be quite balanced for their price, but they have been made quite broken in recent patches reducing the price to be 900mp 155fuel is so overly cheap while also significantly buffing its combat powers to be godlike.
Heavies should not be spamable. But they really are spammable so easily.

and dare i get into the upkeep prices, it's cheaper to spam Tigers and maintain them and replace them over the length of a match than it is to try and produce shermans to overun a defense...
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Re: Tank Aces

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 15 Dec 2014, 08:41

Tiger1996 wrote:@Warhawks;
Replacing the Churchill Croc Ace with a Vet 0 normal Churchill Croc tank that is available for 800 MP for infinite times to be called in is surely also a very good idea specifically if making a green captured Panther G model is not possible.

But how and why u want to move the Tiger Ace to be in the Terror doctrine as a result?! What is going to be there instead of the Tiger Ace item existed in the Blitz doc then??? Nothing??!!
Note: I guess that the Ace Tiger should be already Vet 4 then if it's going to be available or only to be called for a single time...

@Bff;
A Tiger tank, or even a bigger and a stronger tank.. can noway do such heroic job if it wasn't very well commanded. It's surely not that completely invulnerable as u claim! I have seen many noob Axis players just throw their 3 Tigers in front of my defenses while hoping that they will crush everything o.O So their Tigers indeed just died there like Jeeps and nothing more.


Pz4 (2cp) > Panther G (2cp) > Heavy assault battle group (3cp, panther g and stuh with some vet. lvl + stormtroopers). Separete 2cp zimmerit upgrade, which would work same like in TH doc (gives significant buff to armor and health). Thats what i want to see in bk doc.

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Re: Tank Aces

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 15 Dec 2014, 08:46

I dunno why you Bff think that tiger is overperfoming fot its price....relly not, since Achileses, Hellcats and 17 pounders are sitting in every corner + rocket run, long tom. Easy deal to take out tiger, especially in 3vs3 and 4vs4.

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Re: Tank Aces

Postby Tiger1996 » 15 Dec 2014, 12:26

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:I dunno why you Bff think that tiger is overperfoming fot its price....relly not, since Achileses, Hellcats and 17 pounders are sitting in every corner + rocket run, long tom. Easy deal to take out tiger, especially in 3vs3 and 4vs4.


Indeed! Neither I know...

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Re: Tank Aces

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Dec 2014, 15:51

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:@Warhawks;
Replacing the Churchill Croc Ace with a Vet 0 normal Churchill Croc tank that is available for 800 MP for infinite times to be called in is surely also a very good idea specifically if making a green captured Panther G model is not possible.

But how and why u want to move the Tiger Ace to be in the Terror doctrine as a result?! What is going to be there instead of the Tiger Ace item existed in the Blitz doc then??? Nothing??!!
Note: I guess that the Ace Tiger should be already Vet 4 then if it's going to be available or only to be called for a single time...

@Bff;
A Tiger tank, or even a bigger and a stronger tank.. can noway do such heroic job if it wasn't very well commanded. It's surely not that completely invulnerable as u claim! I have seen many noob Axis players just throw their 3 Tigers in front of my defenses while hoping that they will crush everything o.O So their Tigers indeed just died there like Jeeps and nothing more.


Pz4 (2cp) > Panther G (2cp) > Heavy assault battle group (3cp, panther g and stuh with some vet. lvl + stormtroopers). Separete 2cp zimmerit upgrade, which would work same like in TH doc (gives significant buff to armor and health). Thats what i want to see in bk doc.



Lol, is that a joke?4 CP Panther oO...maybe ok for BK doc... but the rest..... Jack of all trade is not enough?... This looks like "Mega Jack of all trade doc" getting elite inf and elite tank group with vet for only MP + Zimmerit later with "Huge" armor buff..... what should it cost? 3600 mp just to be fair?

Or was this one a joke, i am not sure. Everybody would play only this one.... Also why have axis and brits such battle group call ins while not a single US doc has it? E.g the 850 mp call in is pretty cheap if you ask me. Worst would be stug III and volks but still fully upgraded and no fuel. I often get Tank IV, stug IV and pretty often stormtooper with schreck etc for just 850 mp. I can spare my entire fuel and ammo for fuel res trade to get panthers quickly even on low fuel maps.



Also, ok there are some M10 or hellcats but still the enemie needs to drive into it. Skilled teams would let rain some nebelwerfer and would also use reccons during the entire game and know where paks are. If you want to attack an Tiger ace you should use two Tankbuster, an own ace and also arty and airstrike on standby. That means the ace often buys enough time to the rest of the team+ scoring some long range kills to turn some games. I would never attack an Ace without using reccon to find enemie paks and schrecks and not unless i have also and ace or a really huge number of powerfull tankbsuters. Everything else i can do is to use priest (the most effective way which just causes "too much arty whine threats") a lucky airstrike or simply to hope that enemie is fool enough to rush into ambushed paks and not using reccons. Compared to persh ace where i or my team just need to send some inf with schrecks on a low risk attack....


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