Someone said ab is weak?

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Panzer-Lehr-Division
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Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 07 Feb 2016, 22:10

someone said AB is weak, huh? 6 times bombing run airstrikes killed the KT instantly. Also do not watch the game just watch the Moments it happened it was not such gg many mistakes and stuff got tested in there. So it is not such real game. more like a jerky game under friends but watch it !
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Warhawks97
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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Warhawks97 » 07 Feb 2016, 22:12

xD. Who builds a KT vs AB?:D

Epic fail maybe?

I would never get anything bigger than Panther against AB. Go BK doc, Ostwind+storms (and maybe Panther).

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 07 Feb 2016, 22:16

That is just an excuse.. Also the airborn inf were unkillable with vet.

Edit: Clearly someone said the airstrikes sucks does never dmg and so now there is the proof.
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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Tiger1996 » 07 Feb 2016, 22:21

I watched this game live through Lehr's stream on the Steam btw.
Devilfish (AgentDunham) playing Terror with Lehr as SE doc vs someone called Lion as RE doc together with Devilroach who is actually a very decent player with the AB doc in fact.. regardless of all the shit that has happened on this game... I must say that the AB doc is the best counter to the KT with its deadly airstrikes! But still as Hawks probably said, Agent had to spam Panthers instead of KTs; usually when I lose my Tiger tank for a single time.. I never get another or just rarely I do so. Interesting how he kept spamming KTs somehow o.O

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 07 Feb 2016, 22:25

Yep i forgot to write he were re, he needed kts. Panthers would be useless as shit vs re. and comets;)
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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Warhawks97 » 07 Feb 2016, 22:29

if you want to counter any elite high vet you need also high vet elites. The best vs RAF or AB is so far BK. Cheap ostwind, good medium tanks which shred them before late game and high vets.

Getting out any heavy slow moving tank is crap vs elite inf that gets high vets later.


Devilroach is actually one of the older players and probably very experienced. But that doesnt change the fact that AB is "unfriendly" and hardly successfully playable for the large majority of the player base.

edit:

Lehr, the cost you spare for KT when choosing Panther is worse gren/AT squads that can provide protection -.-
Also You had no doc with AA, though Puma is a decent AA unit just most forget about it.

And idk, i guess you went for Wespe. VS this RE/AB combo i would focus first on inf. Both, SE and Terror have powerfull inf with flame nades to beat AB inf. Add schrecks (many of them on the long term) and its it. And once you got this "soldier elite" backed with a Nashorn and thats it. Costly but possible, especially when you get some pressure on AB in mid game.

Also vs RE i would prefer Terror arty while SE goes for inf/Nashorn. So you combine inf pressure (both) with powerfull assault arty (Terror) and backed with heavy AT (SE). Later a Panther comes for sure and RE will never stand that pressure for long.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 07 Feb 2016, 22:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 07 Feb 2016, 22:34

It Sound like you want tell Agent he is newby.. he is not.. he used kt to Counter comets. wich was not even elite and had no vet Ofc you defend allie.. Never seen it difference It is just a fact that its not weak as many Players say. Also bk . would get rekt by comets anyways. Soooo.... Luft waffe Units should not die to 50 quad calibers? or you wanna say the quad calibers haltracks are elite as hell?
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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Devilfish » 07 Feb 2016, 23:56

Oh my dear warhawks,
All this theorycrafting is beautiful, i give you that, but game is game, and every game is different.

Truth is that Panzer was pushed early, early-mid by Devil, I tried to help him, so we weren't in that cool of a situation....Lio then settled down below my base nicely, i don't know, maybe I could have bombed him out with Stukas who knows. I didn't get KT to counter AB ofc, but to counter RE, i was afraid of churchill spam into my base, it's so narrow there on Duclair that if you are unlucky your squads get exterminated by those HE rounds. And what if I bounced with my schrecks several times from church, quite possible, and my base is a mere memory.

Panthers....to be honest i was scared, cause 2 or so days i go i played this exact map against Cyber and he raped my panthers with comet so much....so I dunno...moreover I didn't know this AB airstrike is so deadly, since AB is so scarcely played, I didn't have an opportunity to experience that.

It's probably true, i could have just made a Panther couple and keep them back waiting for ABs spam to come wiping them with crazy Panther mgs, falling back and again and again till, they would bleed out of resources, hoping i will hit crazy comets with schrecks coming after my Panthers....I often play aggressively even if i should not....can't resist...
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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Lionelus » 08 Feb 2016, 01:12

Just to correct what Panzerlehr said, AB bombing airstrike didn't instantly kill KT. KT survived many times with low HP and got repaired.

My brother Devilroach did real good job with airborne, as always. Pushing south in base was a mistake. We should have attacked north, to prevent Axis getting ressources and stop Panzerlehr easy bombing.

From a brit point of view, late game was very difficult. Churchills are good tanks, yet very slow and thus vulnerable to artillery. What I did lack is infantry support, what makes tanks so vulnerable to schrecks spamming.

For not having played for 4 years, the same feeling is here as back in days : Allies need ubermicro skills, intense combined units usage and outstanding team work, whereas Axis seems more self sufficient, as you got so versatile units.

Nevertheless, I've noticed that Allies dominate early game. I started playing BK again 2 month ago. From what i've seen, most of the time the following 2 scenario happen :
- Allies utterly dominate early game, blocking ressources with position, infantry spam or good micro. Axis get raped.
- Axis resists and manage to secure some ressources point. Sniper spams, mortars spam, everything that deals tons of damage, with very few risks. Then late game rolls on, and Allies get raped.

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Feb 2016, 01:14

If you, as said, get pushed in "early-mid" on a map like duclair then its always hard. But same goes in reverse. What surprises me now is, that you got pushed in early-mid but still able to get "many" KT´s?

And do you think that AB or RE, once pushed in early-mid would ever make a good comeback? AB´s would then get shred by volks with lmgs staying behind their nicely made up sandbags. So whats the point? Lost early-mid game, going for KT and wondering to lose?


Also lets see the combo: AB+RE. They won early and mid. That basically means that RE could have locked you down quickly, crushing base with churchills. Also RE is decent vs axis tanks not bigger than Panther. AB is good vs every armor bigger than those.

What would have been your best option then? TH+BK? Mid game ostwind bashing airplanes and inf (on Duclair Ostwind on hill is awesome), TH stopping all armor with IV/70 and killing RE emplacment with hotchkiss. Later storms+med armor killing everything but churchills? Come on.

I might watch it tomorrow but if you let me guess Lehr was on hill, got HMG and pak 36 right at start and got overruned by many rifles and jeeps, the main reason PE loses early vs US. And then you had hard work to do to get all that hill back. Meanwhile RE got time to organize defense and to get "Anti axis tanks tools".


Besides that US inf focused doc + RE is a nice combo. In my old clan days i got used to play usually inf/RE in 2 vs 2 games. Off map, glider, cqc takes map in early, RE locks enemie down, inf gets howitzer.

Anyway, i might look it tomorrow.

Edit: @Lionel: KT, JT and stuff at full HP usually survives an air raid. RAF rocket raid with like 50%, AB bomber, even if both bombs hit, with low HP, just sometimes dead. Actually the KT should survive an entire allied 105 howitzer barrage, even if all shots hit perfectly.

Ah, yes, you told me you were brothers^^. Just was wondering who Lion is. So its you. Makes the result of the way less surprising:)

Lionelus wrote:Nevertheless, I've noticed that Allies dominate early game. I started playing BK again 2 month ago. From what i've seen, most of the time the following 2 scenario happen :
- Allies utterly dominate early game, blocking ressources with position, infantry spam or good micro. Axis get raped.
- Axis resists and manage to secure some ressources point. Sniper spams, mortars spam, everything that deals tons of damage, with very few risks. Then late game rolls on, and Allies get raped.



not just your feeling. I am always saying (especially in "allied emplacment spam topic") that allied must win early and then blocking axis with emplacments. If not, axis get lots of stuff to bash everything quickly. Holding less than at least 50-60% of the map and most of cruical res points and any emplacment spam as alli will fail usually.

So yeah, nice to see someone here who also noticed that picture.

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Devilfish » 08 Feb 2016, 02:21

What surprises me now is, that you got pushed in early-mid but still able to get "many" KT´s?

Well actually I think I've got like 3 total, they usually survived airstrike with like 1% HP and i manage to drag them to base, while the 3rd one was basically the finisher, probably not even needed.

AB´s would then get shred by volks with lmgs staying behind their nicely made up sandbags

Actually I did this quite successfully, truth be told :).

Lost early-mid game, going for KT and wondering to lose?

It's not like i rushed for KT and did nothing, and just a side note, we have won the game. xD

What would have been your best option then? TH+BK? Mid game ostwind bashing airplanes and inf (on Duclair Ostwind on hill is awesome), TH stopping all armor with IV/70 and killing RE emplacment with hotchkiss. Later storms+med armor killing everything but churchills? Come on.

Well i picked doc before i knew the opponents', so yea...so much for picking best option. Well and panzer went for SE, to bomb them out and it kinda worked.

let me guess Lehr was on hill, got HMG and pak 36 right at start and got overruned by many rifles and jeeps

Yea, something like that.

To be honest, I was not satisfied much with my playing in that game, sometimes shit goes down, and one does bad and harsh decisions.....too bad.
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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Feb 2016, 02:38

Ah, so you won.... despite allied won early..... depsite three "deadly" AB doc air raids..... despite having not choosen the "best counterdocks" (while allied choosed not such a bad combo vs your combo)......despite facing a team of very experienced old players playing (and have played) many games together..... despite facing one of the few who are able at all to play AB......despite doing actually a very bad step by choosing KT vs AB´s instead gren/schreck/Panther combo.

So whats the point here? what are we discussing even? Why even that "wrong claim" in topic name which sounds like "every idiot wins with AB" to me?


And i was correct in many things (lehr camping with exact same units as always on duclair hill, volks+sandbags+lmg to shred expensive AB´s which reminds me on a old Tigers post that was like: "OMG, three US rifle squads with double BAR and captain are able to stop my single storm squad") without even watching the gme (except that i was wrong that allied lost the game).

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Tiger1996 » 08 Feb 2016, 10:32

It's true that they hopefully won it at the end but only after base-bombing back... Agent claimed that he was bombed in his base with 95mm Churchills.. and so they decided to reply this the same way but by using Hummels and Stukas on the other hand! I mean that the game was just totally shit to be honest as it can't be a fair proof to anything. But the Allies definitely had a real opportunity to win this game too early of course...

I think that the whole point of this replay is that it does actually prove how extremely effective the AB bombing run airstrikes are against the KT unlike many used to believe the opposite in return; So, I don't like to see any changes implemented on the future for this airstrike in specific as it's really fine as it is currently from what I could see here.

(lehr camping with exact same units as always on duclair hill, volks+sandbags+lmg to shred expensive AB´s which reminds me on a old Tigers post that was like: "OMG, three US rifle squads with double BAR and captain are able to stop my single storm squad")

I wouldn't argue about the US Rifles and the Volks.
But it's worth to mention that when I said this sentence I was actually speaking about the Inf doc Rifles since they cost even cheaper then while yet being effective enough in the hands of a good player...

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Devilfish » 08 Feb 2016, 11:28

.. despite allied won early...

It's not always black and white. Panzer was pushed early i needed to help, yet we won our half of the map back, don't remember when or how precisely....
... despite having not choosen the "best counterdocks" (while allied choosed not such a bad combo vs your combo)...

Maybe after your calculations and analysis, you picked your best docs, but it doesn't mean other docs are heavily handicaped. Terror is just all rounder and SE is also very powerful, much more versatile than let's say RA doc.
..despite doing actually a very bad step by choosing KT vs AB´s instead gren/schreck/Panther combo.

I don't think it was that very, very bad step. KT does great against RE, and with the exception of air support, AB couldn't do a shit against KT.
.....despite facing a team of very experienced old players playing (and have played) many games together....

I'm not saying I'm some pro or whatever.....what you basically trying to point out here? That axis are so "OP" that any "idiots" (us) can defeat very good, old, experienced, team of players?
I think BK mod is quite ok right now, in the matter of balance, far from perfect, but what is perfect in this world? Once KT goes and kills this and that, ppl come crying axis OP shit, another time, KT gets one shot but plane or arty, ppl come crying allies OP abilities and spam, it's always the same again and again. Couple of days i played exactly this map with Panzer, terror/TH, against Maeglin/Cyber, Inf/RE, and we got our arses kicked, they simply played better, now we won it, maybe we out played them now, or just super lucky? I don't know, you decide.

o whats the point here? what are we discussing even? Why even that "wrong claim" in topic name which sounds like "every idiot wins with AB" to me?

No idea, ask panzer. I told him there's nothing about this game to watch it.

only after base-bombing back... Agent claimed that he was bombed in his base with 95mm Churchills.. and so they decided to reply this the same way but by using Hummels and Stukas on the other hand!

As i said to our opponents, Duclair is tricky in this matter. Usually both teams have half of the map, being one step from opponent's base, while at the same opponent's sits at doors to your base. So, is one justified to start "bombing" your base AA, because he surrounded your base? Lio started dropping churchills howie,i suppose on my base AA, but since base area isn't that huge and it doesn't have accuracy of vetted Priest, it was falling down all over the place.
So i just showed them, how "pleasing" it is, dropping stuka on their base AA, twice until it got destroyed and than left. Frankly, I wasn't paying attention if Panzer was dropping Hummels there....
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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 08 Feb 2016, 11:56

AB bomb run is shit, it never kills a KT and does zero damage every second time, moreover you pay 250 ammo for that crap. I think it should be replaced with Thunderbolt rocket run, makes much more sense from all aspects.

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby JimQwilleran » 08 Feb 2016, 12:08

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:AB bomb run is shit, it never kills a KT and does zero damage every second time, moreover you pay 250 ammo for that crap. I think it should be replaced with Thunderbolt rocket run, makes much more sense from all aspects.
Agree, bombs of us airstrike are often bugged, doing 0 damage or very little even with direct hits. Just bombs are bugged in this game, only luft fw run is always devastating. In reality rockets were used more commonly against armored targets and bombs were reserved for larger, static targets.

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Tiger1996 » 08 Feb 2016, 12:12

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:AB bomb run is shit, it never kills a KT and does zero damage every second time, moreover you pay 250 ammo for that crap. I think it should be replaced with Thunderbolt rocket run, makes much more sense from all aspects.

Here we were talking about the one for 200 ammo btw :) It was very successful there.

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Feb 2016, 18:30

the 200 is shit usually, one out of two times it does nothing. And the 250 ammo run calls in the same crap.


The P-47 does only a good job vs emplacments and thats what i think its supposed to kill. I wonder why the 250 ammo bomber patrole does not call in bombers on emplacments and stuff in first place.

I would add a third bomb to the p-47 (its not even unreal). That increases the chance to hit and to deal any damage.
Next to that it might be an option that this bomber unlock also unlocks a rocket run. The bomber and rocket run would then share the same cooldown.

I might try to fix the P-47 bomber.


Devilfish wrote:I don't think it was that very, very bad step. KT does great against RE, and with the exception of air support, AB couldn't do a shit against KT.


Ah, yes. The KT is able and does anihilate certain allied docs by its own (even armor doc when SP is dead or not choosen). Lets remember: "KT must be cheaper! 1000 MP only coz its sooo weak!"

Nice to see that contradiction. And that thing alone does kill RE doc basically or needs only very little support if any. And it should just cost 1000 MP (churchill cost 500.....)?

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Tiger1996 » 08 Feb 2016, 18:41

Warhawks97 wrote:the 200 is shit usually, one out of two times it does nothing.

What makes u think so? From what I can see on the replay.. this thing did such a great job so far!

Warhawks97 wrote:Ah, yes. The KT is able and does anihilate certain allied docs by its own (even armor doc when SP is dead or not choosen). Lets remember: "KT must be cheaper! 1000 MP only coz its sooo weak!"

Nice to see that contradiction. And that thing alone does kill RE doc basically or needs only very little support if any. And it should just cost 1000 MP (churchill cost 500.....)?

But the KT costs 11 CPs... Churchill costs only 1, have u forgot that???
Comparing them is not even possible to be honest.

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Feb 2016, 18:53

Tiger1996 wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:the 200 is shit usually, one out of two times it does nothing.

What makes u think so? From what I can see on the replay.. this thing did such a great job so far!

Warhawks97 wrote:Ah, yes. The KT is able and does anihilate certain allied docs by its own (even armor doc when SP is dead or not choosen). Lets remember: "KT must be cheaper! 1000 MP only coz its sooo weak!"

Nice to see that contradiction. And that thing alone does kill RE doc basically or needs only very little support if any. And it should just cost 1000 MP (churchill cost 500.....)?

But the KT costs 11 CPs... Churchill costs only 1, have u forgot that???
Comparing them is not even possible to be honest.



Just saying. A unit that alone anihilates a doc (or several docs) by its own shouldnt cost less than 1000 MP. Besides that the churchill is kind of a core unit of RE for the assault. Yes, it comes early, but is still part of RE core till end game. Later a crocc is available as a support.


And 1000 MP to get is not really that hard, especially not in team games. One 1 hour lasting game, player gets 1000 MP and... snap, allied choosed 2 out of 6 docs that can hardly deal with that single tank so its lost coz that guy just got some CP, saved just 1000 MP and got "auto win machine"?

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 09 Feb 2016, 19:59

Dafuq you guys talkin? i got crushed i made hmg and pak ? Lol no. Ofc firstly pe struggle but as soon they get Scout the hill is won. I got late hmg. The pak 38 is ofc normal but i not often make it make the pak 38 ht! I did all on the hill mostly my self, then i tryed help Agent with some beute and 210. While i fought off the ab. Guys pls write the real Story.. i know the hill on this map like my left Hand. i know what allies do so all this is np anymore. Doing same tactics all over in this map always works even after rematches because all what allies do is 1 Jeep some rifle spamm and done. But warhawk your welcome to try to rush my "always the same tactic" I never seen you Play nither thats no offense now But dude. your writting more over this game then playing. it... Warhawk i can remember a game on vimoutiers where you used jp offensive not even ambushed and i remember streamed yoru game vs wurf.. wich is not an so hard enemy Yet you got pushed to hell.. by some nebel and yeah and i remember a linden game when shadow was us *while he can not Play it* and i trolled around and Agent told me you lost all your stuff only to glider spamm and trolling well dude my Point is Every tactic you write in this Forum.. i never seen from you why? Do you wanna feel professional? cool? or so? you know it is no offense and so But you sometimes go over your Limit!
And tough i Play this game since Alpha * i had an different account then now! plus it was back on relic! i never seen you warhawk why? you so often said you since the start here, and so often i inv you to a game wich you avoid! Me and some other friends Always played vs devil and Lion yet we won so what? You wanna say tiger is noob? shadow is noob? and so? And your the biggest pro here? Do not Forget to mention you said you teached sukin right? and Terence? you told me so often.. thats not even true man i just wanna know is this thrashtalking at its best or you just Play high? Your going slowly ways to far! *Yes might be not best english but when im slightly pissed off i do not concentrate on how write for good and not everyone is Born with native english language:)*
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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby kwok » 09 Feb 2016, 20:33

Selling balcony tickets to fiesty forum fights. $50 or best bid. Pm for details.

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Warhawks97 » 09 Feb 2016, 20:44

Thing is i played maps like duclair and other small 2 vs 2 few billion times. I just overplayed them. Currently i am not having that much time as well or dont feel in mood for BK seing always the same shit. I basically stopped in december again (two goodwood games in which we rushed the enemies, We forgot RA, enemies got defense first and then stupa/KT and it was 3 hours siege without any step forward), made one game with shadow and kwok at la fiere (same shit happend, again hard def and then stupa/KT/Panther G).... I just got pissed too much in three games in a row of that fucked up hard defense -> rush for Panther G/stupa combo crap which at the end was only possible to manage by using coordinated gameplay of RA/RAF and armor doc using Teamspeak.

So yeah, that pretty much explains why i basically stopped. Its just the same shit over and over again. And yes, i know duclair..... played it at least like 500 times and yes, i know that there are certain axis openings that just cant be beaten. The best one that is working all over the time is using PE on hill rushing southlane with scout cars, WH volks spam with sniper and map being taken when south is steamroled. In case allied on hill does not attack you just have to send a krad and hill is yours, if he attacks you can get him hard falling in his flank with scout cars combined with volks. Doing so with a teammate and coordinated in TS is so far a win almost under gurantee.

The next reason i hate Duclair is that it often ends in "half half map". Axis def hill, allied siege base. Some start "basebomb" and yeah. Quite often allis stay in front of base, cant take hill (as you described) and siege base in south. Axis bomb down from hill like ass and finally Panther/Tiger/stupa/stuh coming out of the axis base in the south covered by the base 20 mm flaks and AT gun or TD. In that case you either managed to get into axis base or you have somehow vet priest or long tom ready.

It gets kinda boring. Duclair was once my fav map, then fav axis map for rushes and now most hated map.

And dude, as WH i just keep wasting non stop till late game. First then i start taking care. But any losses i get in early game are "rebalanced" as soon as i get Tank IV H with Bk doc or simply terror spam with Terror before late game.

I made games... idk, goodwood, graves, linden, many on st hillaire where i did nothing else than losing all my starting units, almost losing but then doing combeback with 2-3 gren squads, recon and puma with 75 mm stubby.

So regardless what you waste, 2 Terror, 75 mm Puma and recon squad and you are back to game. So volksspam, unit wasting and gren spam and puma spam is atm my favorit gamestyle as WH. You dont belive me? i gotta invite you to watch my stream. I also can show you then lots of replays where i managed to keep even offensively just with Puma and schwimmwagen overruning two 17 pdr AT guns and commandos. I basically have no idea what i do when playing WH.... i just know that i get a good comeback in mid game either with pumas and tank IV or puma and grens.


And also i told you what i am working on almost non-stop during the past three weeks.

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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 09 Feb 2016, 20:50

I played it over Billion times as well. and so i Play others just because i had now some few games here what? Why should i Change my hill tactic on a single map lol? When it is always working? even after rematches as said? It is like * oh i won this round and i won the another round too with same tactic so lets Change the tactic!* while Point in this game is to win or? not to figure out anything if you do not Need any other tactics! btw you told me nothing i mean last year:)
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Re: Someone said ab is weak?

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 09 Feb 2016, 21:08

@Hawks

I don't know what BK mod do you play, but in my opinion there are no any "super unbeatable formulas for beating pathetic allies". That's have been busted by me years ago when you was ranting about unbeatable axis and then got beaten by my team 4 times in a row, having elite players in your team as well. And since than actually I don't remember much games with you as an opponent, you was always like "too boring, allies suck" leaving the lobby, though it's not true anyhow.

I'm also wondering why everybody here make inferences looking at a single game or just pulling thoughts out of the mind presenting this as absolute truth? Isnt statistics the best indicator of balance?

If you will look at old and experinced players with lots of games like me\cyberzombie\white loki than you will see that axis\allies winrate is exactly the same, somewhere even higher for alies (all old SVT members have better stats with alies than with axis, impulse, predator, dr. zhivago). And even you hawks supringly have almost twice better stats with USA than with WH (huh?). So, can we stop complaining?

And what you said about units loss, that absolutelly true...but for USA, not for WH anyhow.


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