Two hour long 4 vs 4 and siege

[Warhawks97]

Goodwood. 4.93

4 vs 4

Inf, armor, RE, AB

Vs

TH
Terror
BK
SE



I try to explain what happend:

KT worthless piece. Make it cheaper and better!
Inf doc OP camp bomb tactics!
Axis lose too many tanks to arty! Allis never lose tanks to arty!
Volks are useless! They get killed by Rifles easily. Their lmg is crap and brits inf 1000x better with their lmgs
Churchills must be more expensive



How to kill KT without vet priest when handeld smart and when it doesnt come when game is lost already?
Why is US limited to one mobile SPG that cost a hell lot? Meanwhile axis raging with thousands of rocket launchers.
Why is the only really effective strategy as inf doc to get emplacments like shit and off maps?
Why is US in general more or less limited to momentum off maps? Why they cant compete in attrition arty battles?


And this is what i mean. Remove the damn stationary howitzers from US inf doc. They may survive one or two barrages but are then usually countered by one of the many mobile long range rocket launchers. Remove the sationary from inf doc and add three priests with 200 range, barrage and smoke barrage ability to provide necessary support for advancing inf. Even rangers with all vets are crap as soon as enemie gets lmgs everywhere and tanks with top mount gunners.

Why axis tanks get reduced damage by arty (all) but allis always blow up with 1-2 hits?

The Vim game is less important. But its the first KT i did build in a long time. I did build my last KT 2 years ago or so. I once got it and instantly vet 4.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

"How to kill KT without vet priest when handeld smart and when it doesnt come when game is lost already?"

Typhoon, thunderbolt patrol, long Tom, gammon bombs, ambushed Achilles/Slugger, HE penetration shell of M10, SP, double Pershing with command car....this options aren't enough to kill a unit which cost 1740 MP 210 Fuel and 125 ammo in your opinion? Not to mention cases when KT gets immobilized By random arty hit, what means instant death to this tank.

"Why is US limited to one mobile SPG that cost a hell lot? Meanwhile axis raging with thousands of rocket launchers."

Because on the other hand US have unlimited infantry and emplacements, but axis do not? And calm down with this arty for allies crap, really. Since 88s got over nerfed and RAF got an arty Cromwell there are NO games any more when allies are stacked because of paks wall or something.

"Why is the only really effective strategy as inf doc to get emplacments like shit and off maps?"

Because it is not only effective strategy, swarms of rangers with upgraded zook and covered by smoke can overrun pretty much everything, add here great breakthrough Jumbo, VT and arty Sherman + tons of sneaky stuff which inf doc have, like CQB,s popping out from houses, booby traps, off maps and mines which can be placed by rifles.

"Why is US in general more or less limited to momentum off maps? Why they cant compete in attrition arty battles?"

Because this faction is not about arty in this game, in this mod they have overwhelming amount of units, therefor - no good arty. And nope, in attrition battles USA is the best actually, the longer the game - the more benefits you get from supply yard, this is very noticeable in 1 hour + games, when after a while axis are running around with a few infantry units together with single expensive tank, facing 150+ pop caps American armies.

"And this is what i mean. Remove the damn stationary howitzers from US inf doc. They may survive one or two barrages but are then usually countered by one of the many mobile long range rocket launchers. Remove the sationary from inf doc and add three priests with 200 range, barrage and smoke barrage ability to provide necessary support for advancing inf. Even rangers with all vets are crap as soon as enemie gets lmgs everywhere and tanks with top mount gunners."

I use Howitzers only with VT, building them on the safe distance, for rush support you have off maps and arty Sherman ( which does his pak killer job pretty well ). And just for instance, according to your logic: Even storms and luft with all vets are crap as soon as enemie gets quad cals with HE tanks everywhere and emplacements.

"Why axis tanks get reduced damage by arty (all) but allis always blow up with 1-2 hits?"

Maybe..... Because they have better armor and no available sniper priests who's missiles shells are guided by satellite from space?


"The Vim game is less important. But its the first KT i did build in a long time. I did build my last KT 2 years ago or so. I once got it and instantly vet 4."

Annnd? Do you want to say that if once you got a vet. 4 tank it means that it's op or what?

[Krieger Blitzer]

this options aren't enough to kill a unit which cost 1740 MP 210 Fuel and 125 ammo in our opinion?

U probably forgot to mention the 11 CPs too... But very well said after all.

+1

[Warhawks97]

Typhoon, thunderbolt patrol, long Tom, gammon bombs, ambushed Achilles/Slugger, HE penetration shell of M10, SP, double Pershing with command car....this options aren't enough to kill a unit which cost 1740 MP 210 Fuel and 125 ammo in our opinion? Not to mention cases when KT gets immobilized By random arty hit, what means instant death to this tank.

In the past games ive seen KT and JT pretty often. The US bomber failed, as always due to bugs or they dont hit. Tyhpoon barely killed full HP KT. The last KT´s simply overruned 17 pdrs etc. Nothing penetrated them. Ive seen KT taking on two M10 achilles, SP and Pershing at the same time and killing all while only Persh succedded to pen it once. And without priest the KT usually won the day when being supported by some inf. Long tom failed too badly past games. There was a cluster of Tiger, JT and Jagdpanther. But not a single one got killed by the long tom and they didnt even move away. Only Panthers got knocked out by Long toms when those did hit-

Because on the other hand US have unlimited infantry and emplacements, but axis do not? And calm down with this arty for allies crap, really. Since 88s got over nerfed and RAF got an arty Cromwell there are NO games any more when allies are stacked because of paks wall or something.

How does it help when they all die like flies? vet 5 rangers and 5 squads.... eaten like they were rifles by grens etc. Ive got myself storm leader, storm assault and suppression squad. All freshly build vet 1. They fought 5 ranger squads, HMG, M20 and AA tank and killed pretty much all of them. In one engagment the leader squad went from vet 1 instantly to vet 4. I also used volks in masses again. 4-5 squads with lmg and positioned so that they made corssfire and covering each other. They killed AB and rangers pretty fast.

Later the emplacments (especcially against def, SE and Terror and even BK) becoming pointless. A fully cratered map with nonstop rocket savlos and veted axis inf overruns them without losses. Even when i got two MG emplacments, HE sherman and rifles with BAR the late game inf (storms and luft inf) did overrun them like nothing without much skill.

Also how stupid is that point? "Oh, my enemie gets arty? Well i have to spam emplacments and hope that my MP tool is larger than his ammo pool." fuck dude. Its about countering arty and winning arty games. I would rather spend some shit into stuff to counter arty and to enforce my assaults than spamming emplacments and being insulted as "camper noob" like it recently happend when ive got again a almost 400 popcap emplacment army (enemie didnt get SE for god sake). After a while that cheap inf spam doesnt help anymore, especially without vets. And when i start spamming emplacments and get called camp noob. What a bullshit. Make emplacments cost ammo, add priests and players could do either use arty and inf or spamming emplacments.

Because it is not only effective strategy, swarms of rangers with upgraded zook and covered by smoke can overrun pretty much everything, add here great breakthrough Jumbo, VT and arty Sherman + tons of sneaky stuff which inf doc have, like CQB,s popping out from houses, booby traps, off maps and mines which can be placed by rifles.

Smoke, yeah..... but when nonstop arty hits you all mortars are gone. So each time 330 MP for smoke battery? How many mortars ive got? And how often they got killed by early wespe instantly? Again something that would vote for priest that can shoot smoke.

And yeah.... makes SOO much sense to get a jumbo in late game. When dozens of TD´s parking everywhere, Panthers rolling out and when ever squad has schrecks. Sure i gonna waste 600 MP. Jumbo makes some sense to crack mid game pak defense. But later its kinda pointless because axis defense are panther guns and nashorns and schrecks. CQC.... some fun in early, but late? nope. They have no sticky and cost too much.

Mines.... working in urbans. But on such maps and games the ammount of nonstop arty is too much as that it helps. Not to mention to get the ammount of engineers when playing armor doc and using tellermines.

Off map arty? then you dont get enogu ammo to have many ranger squads with zooks etc. later on you can decide to equip the masses or to get the arty. And since both off maps are must have to kill KT´s and poanthers you wont get zooks. Also sticky need alone up to 100 ammo to effectively stop a tank.

Because this faction is not about arty in this game, in this mod they have overwhelming amount of units, therefor - no good arty. And nope, in attrition battles USA is the best actually, the longer the game - the more benefits you get from supply yard, this is very noticeable in 1 hour + games, when after a while axis are running around with a few infantry units together with single expensive tank, facing 150+ pop caps American armies.

Ah, again "Russian style". Bad news dude. When there is a Jagdoanther and Panther and schrecks you can have 1000 shermans and they wont do shit. Also huge masses of that overwhelming inf is just feeding for storms and luft inf.

In a game before that one we got def and TH doc and BK/Terror. I played with randoms vs loki, erich and slo. They also won early game but later, when we had at least 7 TD´s with panther gun, Jagdpanther and Panthers they couldnt do much. The only reason they finally won was because the TH player never moved forward. He just kept camping with 7 TD´s although enemies had just one M10 and one Pershing half dead left. So even guys like loki, erich and slo in one doc had lots of trouble (and actually lost) and they did use arty doc even while we had just Terror and def doc as arty.

I also talked about artillery attrition wars. Besides that the spamming capabilties of axis was quite crazy although holding only 3 territories. Tell me when you saw last time allis surving 2 hours with 3 areas and finally making a comebacck? And even 200 popcap size can be overruned, doesnt matter how many rangers and emplacments. One well placed arty and assault and 100 popcap is dead within seconds.

I use Howitzers only with VT, building them on the safe distance, for rush support you have off maps and arty Sherman ( which does his pak killer job pretty well ). And just for instance, according to your logic: Even storms and luft with all vets are crap as soon as enemie gets quad cals with HE tanks everywhere and emplacements.

Arty shermans is bad vs SE. They are dead before finishing salvo. The VT is an option but in that game (but also the one before) and the game was an insane recon battle. No recon lived longer than 3 mins on the battlefield. These guys also got krads all day long.



Maybe..... Because they have better armor and no available sniper priests who's missiles shells are guided by satellite from space?

The ammount of alled tanks dying to arty is usually higher. They also have thick armor (even thicker) and cost quite a lot. But there its ok when a church ace dies in a second to a hotchkiss barrage. Also even the light 30 mm armor axis tanks have that reduced damage.

And as a fun fact: A sherman with arround 630 HP is dead after two direct 105 shells. 335x2= 670 damage.
A naked 88 requires also 2 direct 105 shells. 88 has 325 HP. 335x0.5=167,5 damage. So yeah, "axis have better armor" even when they dont have any right?

Given the fact that Tanks had to be hit directly by bombs and arty shells to get really destroyed i would say it would just give a more realistic view. Not seldomly allis lose more than 50% of their tanks to arty. Entire assaults are destroyed by quickly fired walking stuka salvos/hotchkiss or 210 nebler but nobody cares.

But when an immobilized tiger still survives two more inf doc offmap strikes then its like it "should be" or when Jagdpanther stands 3 Long tom hits.

Annnd? Do you want to say that if once you got a vet. 4 tank it means that it's op or what?

No, but i figured out that KT is only hard to play when you face the allied "Formula" in a combo of Pro- Priest gamer, Pro- RAF player and Pro- Armor doc player with SP. Most of the time consisting in a mix of friends that have played 100 games together and more.

But when you put teams in a mix of randoms and some pros then KT is quite a no-brainer unit. You get it and attack. Inf left and right flank and thats it. Steamrole paks and everything in its path. I dont say its wrong. Just i think that recent complains about KT is "too weak" is bullshit. If you keep it moving and long tom will never hit. Airplanes can be shot down and evaded. Just because one unit in skilled hands is able to kill it people complain its a not worthy unit.


I am also playing more and more often on "larger maps" like kwok suggested. And the more i play that way the more seems KT and Panther (G) to be the absolutly dominating units and Luft inf extremly deadly coz there is soo much space to make ambush and to operate without facing instantly 20 shermans.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ive seen KT taking on two M10 achilles, SP and Pershing at the same time and killing all while only Persh succedded to pen it once.

I stopped reading already, once I came up to that sentence.. do u really think u r talking to fools?

[Warhawks97]

If you wanna know it correctly, tzhe Sp bounced twice. I then checked corsix and without AP rounds the SP has about 50:50 pen chance vs KT. Same goes for the reverse. The 17pdr bouncing from distance more often than not. The Persh as no chacne although he was the only one achieveing a pen.

But thats not the first time. If you can remember the uploaded 4 vs 4 there was sinlge KT vs 2 M10, firefly, jacks, 2 e8´s and one normal sherman that blocked his retreat path. the KT killed all of them except jacks which survived with some luck a shot.

Ive been playing with GPS now a second time that inf/RE combo. First game he had to get on very close range with comets and AP rounds and needing then 4 pen shots to kill KT.


In a 3 vs 3 at goodwood two days ago i got tiger. It was a lazzy game but i drove right into a firelfy i didnt see coming. He penetrated me 3 times but my tiger got not a single crit. Later on the tiger flanked a crocc ace and killing it but got immobilized. Enemie did send lots of arty and rangers with zooks but it took like 3 mins before they won the fight. But my immobilized tiger afterall received vet 3 by killing all the rangers and m10´s before second off map killed it mins later.

I also drove close to an m10 achilles although having only less than 50% HP left. I got penetrated but still had some HP left.

So no, its not phantasie shit. The KT is killing ammounts of tanks when those have only 17 pdr guns and normal 76. The SP is the best with slightly less than 50% pen at max range vs KT but is therefore lot more vulnerable to ambushes of axis TD´s and schrecks.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Hawks, when you will understand that this kind of stories makes 0 credits? I can float the forum with the same thing, telling about how I was killing German heavies only with E8's, how I ripped down both BK and Luft players at the same time using only AB units, how I was able to keep down all SE arty, at the same time destroying DEF fortifications and helping my mates to stop heavies, playing as CW arty doc. And so on, thousand cases when I ate axis teams alive, even with inferior team. The same can be applied for axis side of course. But, as I already stated, it has nothing to do with real balance, because... have you ever heard about statistics? It shows, roughly, that in 8 out of 10 games KT can't anyhow make a big impact on a game, in 3v3 and 4v4 it instantly killed by things which I have mentioned in previous post, in 2v2 the price of KT simply do not allow to get it when it's needed, you build it either when enemy is almost dead as a fun finisher, or loosing the battle because of waiting for resources, then it comes when the initiative is already lost and tank is getting killed in ambush. From my experience, I have seen KT with a good score a single time in 2v2 ( was Tiger's one when he killed my SP with V1, yet high veted King didn't help them to win a game and after a while of resistance they have lost) 3 times in 3v3 games ( 2 by myself, once by Hanibal on LaFiere, but it was a last stand on a base and allied team was just sending units to death in respect of fun) and NEVER in 4v4, let me remind you here that I have more than 2000 games in total.

And I don't demand any buff for KT, just slight price reduction can be made, it will not break balance in any point.

According to "I have killed X units with a single storms" well, I have done the same with AB, RAF and even Rangers, not even only me for sure, many others, but it's just a single stories, we even don't know the side factors about it.

So, my request to you ( as well as to Tiger ) stop polluting the forum with this bullshit, if you want to prove something, than make let's say 10 games with same doc against players with approximately the same skill and show us the superior axis power, than we will have a talk. Because, according to my feelings, balance is not bad now ( even there is a shift to allied favor ). At least the total axis dominance is not exist right now for sure. Moreover, from my point of you, Germans need some buffs, because I feel like it's easier to play as alies, when I loose game as alies, I always can analyze my tactics and say what I have done wrong, but as axis..... Sometimes I just feel confused because I was overwhelmed by simply quanity advantage, even when I had much less losses than my enemy.

[Krieger Blitzer]

+1 for Sukin once again! ^^

KT price reduction is definitely included through one of the points of my upcoming final 'initial list' of the next patch... As well as many other so valid points that are very good for the Allies on the other hand and generally for the game balance too.. all based on the recent topics published by players, and there also might be some great surprises btw

[Warhawks97]

Dudes. the KT´s armor got buffed. Its twice stronger than it was against most enemie guns. ATM arty or rather priests is the only reliable counter.

Also the reason why it comes too late or too early is the fact that either all axis players get lots of inf and panthers and so KT is just for fun fielded. Or all players run for these tanks and so they lose mid game. But when a combo of luft player or TD doing well with inf or TD´s and when BK doing well by keep spamming Tank IV´s together with luft inf then KT can come out right at the correct time to knock out all enemies in pretty much one assault. especially when he spared some ammo to have a firestorm or walking stuka ready to fire when KT goes for attack.

Ive been playing quite many games, and not with "mates only i do trust in" which exactly do that "formula Priest/Pershing scott combo". Also pretty often without arty doc. And it went good till panthers and KT´s appeared. Coz killing them needs a good coordination between players and their doctrinal abilties. But when this doesnt exist (which is more often the case then not) and when no RA is in the team then that guy with KT and some grens will most likely anihilate the entire enemie army by its own.

the last "worthless KT´s" ive seen was either unworthy becauce of extrem dullness (like driving through a narrow part right into two visible commando squads) or because of already high veted Priests and when the entire game was a fail. But in most normal conditions, not with "Formula Mates", and even more specific when playing on "larger maps", then these tanks (panther, kT) are the ultimate game changers. Besides vet Priest you can have an SP. But since larger maps provide decently res to relatively quickly replace panthers both, priests and SP, get in trouble. SP due to its speed and is it is needed then on many fronts and Priests due to the fact that there isnt much that limits the tank movment as maps are less crowded.

So when i finally come to a conclusion its quite funny that allied in general have just two good SPG´s that can poss a threat in late game (to tanks). Meanwhile a good dozens of pretty flexible -heavy- axis artillery units providing a huge threat to any allied tank. That they do have the absolut domintation of artillery flexibility that growth in importance when maps getting larger and games in general more chaotic.

Basically, when we had games without SE and arty doc, we just looked kind of helpless when we saw arty shooting nonstop from all directions while being very limited in our own arty. And all we can do to "counter that" is to spam emplacments which just sometimes works even when opponent has no SE doc.

Meanwhile.... Inf doc has a Jumbo which in late game helps a shit.



regarding to this game i do admit that mistakes did happen. For example design failed to invest his 2000 MP into something at min 10-15 and Jnorbz got too early too many e8´s that ruined his income and thus a maintained production. But taking that things aside and talking only about the last 1 hour i would say its pretty ridiculous. Its like: If you didnt beat axis within 1 hour and getting no domination slightly before late game (when Panthers come) you are pretty much dead if you didnt choose Arty doc. And axis afterall making comebacks bombing everything into stoneage.


On the long term it would help a lot for inf doc late game competitivness to take away the Jumbo and having some standard priests that can provide smoke and and normal barrage support for inf docs main late game assault force: The infantry. It would take away some mid game strenght as the jumbo at that stage can steamrole the one or the other defense but on the long hand inf is kind of restricted to large number aka russian style inf spam (which may ends in feeding) and spamming silly emplacments like shit, being then accused for camping.

[Tor]

KT lifetime in battlefield=Pz-4h.
KT cant find target or retreat because slow stupid shit.
KT worse in battlefield than Tiger late and panther g and maybe panther a.
KT Good only for banish SP, because SP have only 1 life, but in same time KT really bad vs SP because super slow shit and dont have range boost.
KT just waste resources most times.
If panther get damage, panther can go to base, if KT take damage he most times die, because all times allies have 100500 squads, 15 arty strikes or air strikes, 30 shermans for slow KT ass.
Panther with 1% hp have better chances for surviving than KT with 50%.

[Warhawks97]

The Kt is vulnerable when getting crits damage.

The Bomb run cant kill full HP KT. Even Typhoon doesnt always.
Lifetime of the unit depends how, where and against what you use it. KT cs commandos is silly. When your opponent has Armor, RE, Inf doc and stuff then KT is the master of the battlefied. Just keep inf in front and use the massive range of KT.

Allis tanks dying more often to arty in most circumstances.
Airstrike efficency depends on Map and AA power. But Henschels can also knock out entire armored forces when those have no AA protection.

And the SP has less than 50% pen chance afterall. With APCR rounds its the only tank on allied side that goes above 50%. But in most cases you can literally ignore all enemie gunfire.

Thing is that KT is atm just correctly set. Guns and zooks cant really penetrate it and even if the KT has lots of HP to survive several pen hits.

Also cost are OK. If you go vs RE or armor doc (and maybe even vs inf) then the unit is top. Even a horde of like 15 sherman easy eights with jacks and comets can fail to ultimately kill the KT. But tanks are not really a match for that tank and with vets it gets some really cool abilties that makes it really being a fortress on the field.

VS RAF and RA the tank is a fail. Though you might be able to rush through the lines and chasing priests.
But same goes for SP. Ride it in a Nashorn ambush or schreck ambush and it dies in a second.


But so far the KT beats 90 or 95% of all enemie units and is able to kill all except airplanes. In 1 vs 1 it would beat every unit, even SP due to higher pen and damage with AP rounds and higher rof while SP shoots less fast and with less damage when using APCR rounds. Which other unit can do that? Non.