OMG!

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Krieger Blitzer
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OMG!

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Somehow, I am recently winning as CW RAF much easier than as Blitz doc.. although I have huge amount of experience as Wh (nearly 1000 games played) unlike as Brits (only 100 games played) generally!

Me and Panzer as Axis vs Armynator and Zetsuboon as Allies... Simply so disappointing -_-

To be honest; I begin to smell a balance issue there.
Zadoff and Mr.Nobody as well as some others also hinted me on it before, but I didn't listen as I was busy practicing Brits all the time since the patch release X_X
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Bk mod v4.93 playback file.
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Armynator
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Re: OMG!

Post by Armynator »

We expected a defeat and listened to a radio show in Teamspeak while playing and made serval mistakes, but still won somehow xD

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DaŇjeL_SK
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Re: OMG!

Post by DaŇjeL_SK »

Tiger1996 wrote:Somehow, I am recently winning as CW RAF much easier than as Blitz doc.. although I have huge amount of experience as Wh (nearly 1000 games played) unlike as Brits (only 100 games played) generally!

Me and Panzer as Axis vs Armynator and Zetsuboon as Allies... Simply so disappointing -_-

To be honest; I begin to smell a balance issue there.
Zadoff and Mr.Nobody and some others also hinted me on it before, but I didn't listen X_X


What isn't clear ? ...ofc, is it unbalanced... allies were better for small and short game even before 493 (that's why I played 3 of 4 2v2 games by allies) ... now are OP... in every aspect... and bk doc... it is now fucked... I played only twice with bk doc so I made about 4 stuhs (poor statistic), but I wasn't able to hit enemy... and it was in goodwood on the left... I don't know flatter map... isn't it bugged ?

Now we can see players, which played both sides playing only allies (nobody, zadoff, messupgood...)... even Wurf started playing USA in most of games... let's think why...

Zetsuboon
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Re: OMG!

Post by Zetsuboon »

this match.. was funny.. really funny.. and I really expected to be defeated but HEY nvm

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: OMG!

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Yup, we also expected a win.. however that it looks like I am not a good Axis player anymore... Or that the Blitz doc is so badly fked somehow!

Recently as u can see through all the previous uploaded replays of mine; I was more focusing on Brits specifically the RAF doc. Others kept spamming me on the Steam chat during the past few days or more accurately since the latest patch release as they begged me every time to give up playing British and then to try out the new Blitz doc as they considered me to be a very good Blitz doc player as I probably used to become, now finally I listened to their advice and the results for me are honestly a bit too shocking o.O

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Warhawks97
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Re: OMG!

Post by Warhawks97 »

DaŇjeL_SK wrote:
What isn't clear ? ...ofc, is it unbalanced... allies were better for small and short game even before 493 (that's why I played 3 of 4 2v2 games by allies) ... now are OP... in every aspect... and bk doc... it is now fucked... I played only twice with bk doc so I made about 4 stuhs (poor statistic), but I wasn't able to hit enemy... and it was in goodwood on the left... I don't know flatter map... isn't it bugged ?

Now we can see players, which played both sides playing only allies (nobody, zadoff, messupgood...)... even Wurf started playing USA in most of games... let's think why...



I would highly reccomend not to use stuhs. Except you want to do offensive camp as team, NOT alone (stuh+ 88 and AA behind).

I havent used stuhs since 4.5-4.6 or so (or only for trolling when games got lost already). I stopped very early to use them for some reasons:

1. I hate the way the work. They ruin games, simply that.
2. As BK doc you have MUCH better stuff then stuhs. Storms+AA tank+Tank IV. But stuh itself is just shit and using them will never help you to win a game. Get it.
3. They are effective if your team strategy is layed out as offensive camp. That means you should have 88´s arround, AA tanks behind and Panther and Tank IV´s arround the stuh. Best is combined with Luft doc: 88´s, sd2, Luft inf arround and Marder. Also both stuhs should be fielded and those embedded in your team, handeld with kid gloves.
4. They are best used to force mistakes from your opponents side. I called that "forcing enemie to attack me". Again best combined with luft. In that case you get one or two stuhs (one is enough as your offense is not build up on them). The Luft player gets gebirgs and reg 5 as support and marder III. 88´s are unsuited in this strategy as nobody would risk an attack when 88 is there, doesnt matter how much stuh does to them. But you can combine both tactics. Using two stuhs and a massive protection of ambushed units arround.

But all these ways leaving just one option then for allied: Arty, Arty, Arty and at best full risk with non-stop attacks and "All-ins".


So stuhs have two ways to be usefull but that requires usually a mate:

1. Offensive camp: Your stuh is the only offense units. Panthers, AA tanks and luft inf are just for defensive duties. Paks and 88´s are recommended here as well as normal tanks. But those do only soft push and exploting enemie defense to make stuh targets visible.
2. "Force enemie to attack". The stuhs should look like being "exposed" and an easy target. In fact they are protected by paks and other hidden units. highly recommended are luft units here. Even more than Stormtroopers because luft is better for ranged fight + para reinforcment on point but also Faust. Also great combined with hidden tank destroyer like the IV/70.

Any other way to use them effectively is most likely doomed to fail. Reasons:

1. The unit itself is weak for its cost.
2. Offensive camp alone does not work. The defensive options for BK doc arent that great. Actually they are, just to get them all takes too long. The stuh would eat too many res as that you can provide all necessary cover by your own. Beside the necessary defense you would also have to provide the units that do the soft push. Only in late game when you already have a Panther/AA tank and some storms.
3. Force enemie to attack fails for the same reason as point 2. You would have to provide 75 mm paks, schreck squads, AA tanks and storms at least. That works only whe your opponent is also a camper.

If you want to use them aggressively it would also fail for some reasons:

- Cost and range is a disadvantage. Sounds funny but thats true. Firstly you pay quite a lot for this unit which own combat values isnt much higher as those of a stug III actually (But reduced cost would make them to cheap which tactial advantage it can give to your team: See above). That means you have less res to build other units while the range automatically makes you leaving the stuh far away from the front beliving that its saver when left far back. Thats a wrong assumption. I for myself manage to keep my units near front more often alive during attacks as those which arent close to font simply as i pay more attention to the units fighting on the front. The stuh far left behind has then little attention and is quickly killed by sneak enemie attacks (or arty). But bringing the stuh closer to the front is also bad because its costly but HP and armor causes the stuh to die a quick death from just two hits from small weapons.


This is the reaon why i asked sooo often for a rework of stuh and stupa becoming real frontline units with cool supportive abilities and reduced cost. But nobody did listen and so we still have to live with units that are quite usless without the correct strategy which requires a team strategy. So we have just two very stupid scenarios for which they can be used for: "offensive camp" and "forcing the enemie to attack". While any attempt to include these unit into a properley exectuted assault from BK doc will most likely fail. So we stuck in a dilemma with that or these units which in both ways end stupidly. But any rework suggestion for a more realistic, more funny, more usefull unit for BK doc got rejected by the devs.


And belive me, ive once been a former excessive stuh abuser and developed exactly these two silly ways of "how to use stuh best" with my older clan mates. I am not proud of it but i can tell you that probably any other good way of using stuh is doomed to fail. I might be wrong by since then i have never seen someone proving me wrong with these fucked unit(s) (stupa).

Tor
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Re: OMG!

Post by Tor »

Warhawks97 wrote:
DaŇjeL_SK wrote:

I would highly reccomend not to use stuhs. Except you want to do offensive camp as team, NOT alone (stuh+ 88 and AA behind).

I havent used stuhs since 4.5-4.6 or so (or only for trolling when games got lost already). I stopped very early to use them for some reasons:
1. I hate the way the work. They ruin games, simply that.



Haha you realy think stuh ruin games?)) some people think its real man.

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: OMG!

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

One second... This topic is not about the fking Stuh, the Stupa.. Scott or whatever related!

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Warhawks97
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Re: OMG!

Post by Warhawks97 »

Tiger1996 wrote:One second... This topic is not about the fking Stuh, Stupa.. Scott or whatever!


i refered to that:

DaŇjeL_SK wrote: I played only twice with bk doc so I made about 4 stuhs (poor statistic), but I wasn't able to hit enemy... and it was in goodwood on the left... I don't know flatter map... isn't it bugged ?



when a single guy as BK doc is going to use stuhs then he will fail unless its a team strategy which i described. So when someone tells me that he failed as BK by using stuhs, then its not really an suprise.

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: OMG!

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Warhawks97 wrote:So when someone tells me that he failed as BK by using stuhs, then its not really an suprise.

I don't use Stuhs o.O Yet I failed for now, somehow.

A Sten Commando squad ripped a Storm unit apart only in seconds! Just face to face :P

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Warhawks97
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Re: OMG!

Post by Warhawks97 »

Not to use stuhs doesnt mean automatically to win. But if so then the chance to lose greatly increases. Also stuhs are most of the time used by those which have little ideas how to use combined arms. I wont say i made an "academic work" about it but its something you can easily observe.


As for you, i told you that you could use infantry a lot more effective. Just you either dont want or you cant. Ikd. Using inf very effectively can sometimes be a hard job and success comes very very slowly. Blobb is just a method... the easiest of all. Still i think silly blobbed in squads are too effective somtetimes with too great success, even when running frontally into an (ally) HMG and a tank etc.

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Butterkeks
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Re: OMG!

Post by Butterkeks »

Tiger1996 wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:A Sten Commando squad ripped a Storm unit apart only in seconds! Just face to face :P


Were the Storms equipped? And you wonder that a unit that's ONLY good in close combat tears apart another unit? Do you also wonder that the Snipers kill on long ranges with one shot? :D

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: OMG!

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

Actually we made a rematch after it on Duclair btw where I took the revenge, although that Panzer this time dropped on the middle stage of the game.. I won it anyways by having 3 Vet3 Storm units and 1 Vet2 Tiger of which I later lost to a 17P... However that this one was immediately replaced by another Vet2 Tiger tank then I finally succeeded knocking out their bases! :)

So I probably wouldn't say that the situation now has become disastrous anyhow for the Blitz doc; but it's a must to admit that recently it has been seriously a bit too difficult than before.

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Butterkeks
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Re: OMG!

Post by Butterkeks »

Well I agree that the game got harder for Axis, as they now also have to watch out for their inf etc as the M1 is now also capable of killing enemies.
But this is very good imo :D

Not that "arcade axis" vs "simulator Allies" anymore, or at least not that much :D

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Terence's Mouth
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Re: OMG!

Post by Terence's Mouth »

sadly ^^

Zetsuboon
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Re: OMG!

Post by Zetsuboon »

Actually we made a rematch of the rematch on autry and we won this again cause of the superior british tetrarch yiiihaaa (it wasnt really a long game soon after panzer crashed tiger left the game so I guess we will have a rematch of the rematch of the rematch later ye)

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Warhawks97
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Re: OMG!

Post by Warhawks97 »

Tiger1996 wrote:So I probably wouldn't say that the situation now has become disastrous anyhow for the Blitz doc; but it's a must to admit that recently it has been seriously a bit too difficult than before.


true. But it got quite boring to rush 95% of all games, even 2 vs 3 sometimes. The only interesting enemie back there had been sukin and his SVT mates. But even those got lucky a few times (like hellcat survives 5 pak hits and kill pak) or 57 mm with no special ammo kills two tank IV´s in three shots.

It got harder, sure. But thats the fun i have now with axis. More enemies that i cant rush away. And hard games against good allied player.

Butterkeks wrote:Not that "arcade axis" vs "simulator Allies" anymore, or at least not that much :D


+1. Axis was pure arcade (still is, but less). Allied even harder than a simulator lmao. There they would live longer in cover and guns would have some penetration:P

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DaŇjeL_SK
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Re: OMG!

Post by DaŇjeL_SK »

Warhawks97 wrote:
DaŇjeL_SK wrote:
What isn't clear ? ...ofc, is it unbalanced... allies were better for small and short game even before 493 (that's why I played 3 of 4 2v2 games by allies) ... now are OP... in every aspect... and bk doc... it is now fucked... I played only twice with bk doc so I made about 4 stuhs (poor statistic), but I wasn't able to hit enemy... and it was in goodwood on the left... I don't know flatter map... isn't it bugged ?

Now we can see players, which played both sides playing only allies (nobody, zadoff, messupgood...)... even Wurf started playing USA in most of games... let's think why...



I would highly reccomend not to use stuhs. Except you want to do offensive camp as team, NOT alone (stuh+ 88 and AA behind).
....
bla-bla
...
3. They are effective if your team strategy is layed out as offensive camp. That means you should have 88´s arround, AA tanks behind and Panther and Tank IV´s arround the stuh. Best is combined with Luft doc: 88´s, sd2, Luft inf arround and Marder.
...
bla-bla-bla
...
...

So you are saying the accurancy deppends on vehicles and troops which u have close to stuh ? :roll: because I was complaining on accurancy and groundhitting ;) ... but u don't mind... u just wanted to write (or copy from somewhere) your essay

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Warhawks97
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Re: OMG!

Post by Warhawks97 »

omg...I case 3 the accuracy doesnt matter that much.

If you go for offensive camp you get like two stuhs. Your mates do put all units arround. So even if every second shot is a fail.... it doesnt matter because you have endless time. Any attack of the enemie in any imaginable number would get crushed. I think nobody is even thinking about an attack when there are AA tanks, 88 and surefly some other hidden stuff.

So again.... it doesnt matter how often they fail. On long term you simply win. Either stuhs have bombed everything to dust and they only need to kill emplacments and weapon crews and here they have very good accuracy. Everyhting else is steamroled by few inf squads with schrecks and stgs anyway. And if the enemie has no real arty and is forced to attack, then you will win even faster.

In case you rely on "force the enemie to attack" the accuracy doesnt matter at all. The fact that the unit (stuh) is staying there making shot after shot and occiassionally hits an enemie unit forces the enemie to "reply" or to react. If he does nothing the stuh will kill at least vehicles and emplacments, even when only every thid shot hits, the enemie cant know which one will hit and kill, he just knows that his units are in a dangerous area. So he reacts. what was intended by the stuh use, and attacker runs into well prepared ambush.



So not every unit is usless coz its helpless by its own with bad DPS. You also need to consider which reaction are being caused by the fact that a unit xy is on the field. So sometimes you can get units with the goal to force your opponent to do something what you want he does.

But i guess something like that is "unknown" for many here as only K/D´s and points are important..... But stuff like that also belongs to military strategy since thousands of years. For example fake attack. The units involved have probably bad K/D, maybe non or a negagive one. However, they played an important role for the entire success of an military action. You guys would never even cosnider something like that because of "It doesnt makes kill/ Bad KDR-> usless".

I think konfuzius said something like: "Before you advice/discuss each other, make sure you use the same terms". If i would apply that on our "discussion" we will never understand each other because you think simply in a completely different way. For me, strategy and tactic does not only mean good K/D or "points", the win matters at the end. For you and most here (in BK) "good" strategy or tactic means only "Unit x" or "all my units" have positiv stats and i have "most points at the end".

Thats being said, i highly doubt you will understand what i am saying as we simply understand "usefull", "Useless", "good" or "bad" very different regarding units and their tactical and strategic use. Its not an offense, it just means that i wont spend more time with discussion about this matter.

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DaŇjeL_SK
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Re: OMG!

Post by DaŇjeL_SK »

Warhawks97 wrote:...
...
...

Jeah... another essay... life is too short to read all what u write... but in the way u write is best use stuh u just fucking don't need stuh... u can use mortarts for exaple instead of it... advantage of using stuh is, it is armored and can hit even units reaching to kill it... so u don't need army to defend stuh, just any AT and mg for example... because accurancy deppends... end of story...

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Warhawks97
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Re: OMG!

Post by Warhawks97 »

Discussing is apparently usless with you and i said that already in previous post. Even teaching actually as you seem to be immun against the act of learning. And writting seems to be also not your strenght. I dont get the last part you write. Anyway, i wouldnt care even if i would understand it. I wanted a complete overhaul for stuhs (and stupa) making them completely new to be more usefull in their intended role.

Sadly nobody else wanted. So live with the stuhs as they are atm and use them in they way i described. Just be aware that they wont make fun at all (not for you and not for the enemie). I think thats what you understood already.

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