88´s at its best

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Warhawks97
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88´s at its best

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 May 2015, 22:28

This is a game a mate played few mins ago. I didnt participated in this game but mate has probs with his acc here. Pls wolf or markr, can you check out if there is an acc from the player: elpiojoxp

he said he had an acc but not anymore. Maybe something happend to his acc. Can you check it out?


4.8.8, Hill 112.


Three very good allied players vs some good axis players. Micro skills definately on allied side with shadow and termix.

RAF
AB
Armor

vs

Luft
BK
SE


very good start from allied side. But 88´s checkmated all three docs more or less alone. Just a bit protection arround and thats it.


If someone says now: "why you played this map" i wanna let you know that this strategy is actually possible on 90% of all 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 bk mod maps, just saying. Even on Valkensward there is an area which allows great use of 88 guns. The only doc able to deal with such situation is CW arty doc (inf doc recently tested but failed even with vet 3 arty sherman). and CW arty has also probs with 88´s when enemie uses grille and SE Hummels just to counter them when those shoot at 88´s.


What i dont get in general. Why have axis better def but also more and better arty? I dont really expect a answer here. Nobody knows (i asked arround in BK community already). Sukin wrote to elpio in game that he didnt choose inf doc, arty or RE. But with RE the game would have ended much faster due to missing offensive power. Also stuhs etc..... would have been a bad idea. Also idk if arty church have more range as the 88. Inf doc? No chance vs SE or def doc. But even without inf doc had once hard times vs 88´s and we had not even def or se doc.


hf..... or not. I had my fun with it.
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Wolf
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Re: 88´s at its best

Postby Wolf » 10 May 2015, 23:25

The requested user does not exist.
Not in deleted log too.. was he surely registered on the new forum?
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Warhawks97
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Re: 88´s at its best

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 May 2015, 23:33

Wolf wrote:The requested user does not exist.
Not in deleted log too.. was he surely registered on the new forum?


Ok, i just talked with him again and explained him. Seems he did a mistake here.

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: 88´s at its best

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 11 May 2015, 05:32

By the way, i did a test yesterday, checking out 88s resistance to different kinds of weapons, here some conclusions.

Satchels: Was the most weird thing, 1 satchel took.... half HP lol - fix.

95mm Churchil: 4-5 hits, usually kills with 1 barrage (range is better than 88 once) - no problems.

AVRE: direct hit one shoted flak always, close explotion also took many HP - no problems.

Inf doc 105 mm arty - as we all saw here, vfa mainly complained about there poor perfomance against 88s, but in test damage was surprisingly good, 3 hits took out flak completely, but the thing is that this arty is so damn innacurate, 3 direct hits i got only after 3 barrages - no problems, its alied accuracy sucks.

75mm howitzer, 25 pounder, cali jeep and Caliope rockets, 75mm autocar: this things are doing veeery little damage and really arent able to destroy flak completely - fix.

Inf doc off map arty: buged i guess, very little damage also.

Direct fire arms kills flak very easy though: 1-2 76mm cannon hits, 2-3 zooks, 2-3 recoiless.

Gammon bombs: little damage also.

So, as you can see big arty unit working fine on 88s, the problem is in small arty pieces ( btw Vfa, in next game on halfaya, which you also watched, two 88s which were deployed pretty fast were blown in 2-3 mins by different kinds of arty, they didnt have Priests by that moment.

I dont know, if it possible to change 88 resistance to small arty only, because if you ll just reduce its HP than big arty will just 1-2 shot, that will be too easy for unit which costs 820mp/50 fuel and gives alied arty much experince. Def doc 88s never a problem actually, because all players opening them too late, perefering Howitzers, Grille/Stupa, inf bonuse, fast bunkers, thats why 88s occuring late when alies have a lot of arty and Flak cant be a problem.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 88´s at its best

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 May 2015, 12:28

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:By the way, i did a test yesterday, checking out 88s resistance to different kinds of weapons, here some conclusions.

Satchels: Was the most weird thing, 1 satchel took.... half HP lol - fix.

95mm Churchil: 4-5 hits, usually kills with 1 barrage (range is better than 88 once) - no problems.

AVRE: direct hit one shoted flak always, close explotion also took many HP - no problems.

Inf doc 105 mm arty - as we all saw here, vfa mainly complained about there poor perfomance against 88s, but in test damage was surprisingly good, 3 hits took out flak completely, but the thing is that this arty is so damn innacurate, 3 direct hits i got only after 3 barrages - no problems, its alied accuracy sucks.

75mm howitzer, 25 pounder, cali jeep and Caliope rockets, 75mm autocar: this things are doing veeery little damage and really arent able to destroy flak completely - fix.

Inf doc off map arty: buged i guess, very little damage also.

Direct fire arms kills flak very easy though: 1-2 76mm cannon hits, 2-3 zooks, 2-3 recoiless.

Gammon bombs: little damage also.

So, as you can see big arty unit working fine on 88s, the problem is in small arty pieces ( btw Vfa, in next game on halfaya, which you also watched, two 88s which were deployed pretty fast were blown in 2-3 mins by different kinds of arty, they didnt have Priests by that moment.

I dont know, if it possible to change 88 resistance to small arty only, because if you ll just reduce its HP than big arty will just 1-2 shot, that will be too easy for unit which costs 820mp/50 fuel and gives alied arty much experince. Def doc 88s never a problem actually, because all players opening them too late, perefering Howitzers, Grille/Stupa, inf bonuse, fast bunkers, thats why 88s occuring late when alies have a lot of arty and Flak cant be a problem.


well. I still would check the HP´s between [b]unemplaced[/b] 88´s compared to normal paks or howitzers. Its quite silly that the def doc 88´s arty barrage takes out an [b]unemplaced[/b] howitzer with 3 close hits but several barrages of 105 howitzers cant take out an 88. So the def docs 88 just used as howitzers are already superior to normal howitzers and cost are marginal different.


Also how much more range has the 95 mm arty church compared to 88 normal range? and AVRE has more range? And even if its almost the same range which means that there cant be a unit in front of it and the arty churchill is thus an easy traget for any kind of schreck inf or stugs etc. And henschels working wonders against these slow churchills as well and sd2 arent needed so much as RE wont be able to attack with inf etc all the time like it happend in this game by RAF and AB.


And for inf doc.... just give them two priests with a range of normal stationary 105 mm howitzers (105 sherman has less and is more a close range arty support unit) and prob would be solved and inf doc reliable arty support against such types of defense and able to match up with def docs arty.


and that even satchels cant destroy them is..... didnt know that but ive never seen someone being able to throw them on it. Thing is that there is no need for unemplaced 88 to be so durable. I mean unlike in vcoh players do have the choice to build an emplaced 88 if they want a more durable version. the 100 range for unemplaced while emplaced has just 75 is also stupid. I mean emplaced and unemplaced paks have also same range so far. And if someone would be scared the 88´s would lost its value for luft doc i wouldnt mind adding arty barrage to luft docs 88´s - i would support it even. But 100 range able to oneshot everything with AP or HE rounds just doesnt fit in that game as the zoomout isnt large enough to see 88 and target and since even spotters cant detect the 88´s when those already shoot at units which are still placed behind the spotter.

I actually would prefer having 75 normal range and then arty barrage instead a unit that oneshots everything at such a distance (like twice the range of Tanks!) with direct shooting.

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: 88´s at its best

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 13 May 2015, 10:58

Hey, what if emplaced flak will recieve 100 range, when naked one will recive significant HP decrease? I think it will be much more logical, cause currently its silly that naked flak is more prefarable than emplaced one.

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MarKr
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Re: 88´s at its best

Postby MarKr » 13 May 2015, 12:44

Hey, what if emplaced flak will recieve 100 range, when naked one will recive significant HP decrease? I think it will be much more logical, cause currently its silly that naked flak is more prefarable than emplaced one.

What do you immagine under "significant"? I mean, Warhawks already goes crazy about unemplaced versions bouncing off shells (we have it in the to-do list ) so I cannot immagine what would he say if unemplaced 88s could soak up X tank/arty hits without being destroyed :D
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Warhawks97
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Re: 88´s at its best

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 May 2015, 13:43

MarKr wrote:
Hey, what if emplaced flak will recieve 100 range, when naked one will recive significant HP decrease? I think it will be much more logical, cause currently its silly that naked flak is more prefarable than emplaced one.

What do you immagine under "significant"? I mean, Warhawks already goes crazy about unemplaced versions bouncing off shells (we have it in the to-do list ) so I cannot immagine what would he say if unemplaced 88s could soak up X tank/arty hits without being destroyed :D



Why needs 88 hundred range? I mean for gameplay reasons it sucks as they are hard to spott even when using spotters. I had games where i had spotters which couldnt find the 88 but those already shot against units that had been placed well behind my spotter. This mega range stuff is really crazy and even the largets maps are almost enitrely covered with just 3-4 88´s. And i already made a lot of players really raging by just using the range of 88´s (not only those shown in the uploaded in the replays here in forum) and all blaming me as "noob 88 spammer" or recently someone wrote me "Takoz style" (Note Takoz and his crew are guys that play axis HR always spamming bunkers and 88s etc". Also people wrote me when i asked them why i am a "noob" they wrote me that only noobs using weapons like this 88 with 100 range and that "good players" or experienced players do not use weapons and tactics like this though its often incredible easy to win games like that. So in my opinion people say that 100 range for 88 isnt OP just because its only used by noobs while "experienced players" are more gentlemens and not using this weapon. So the weapon is not OP as long as only noobs use them while experienced axis players or crews refuse to use 100´s with 100 range.

And other players like Danjel SK want a limit of 88´s again which i dont want as i dont like this "overlimiting" of units forcing player more and more into a "one play style" with much sapce for player specific tactics with certain doctrines. And simply limiting certain units to "balance them" (even when there is no balance issue) doesnt really work.


So i would really belive that a range of 75 for all 88´s (which is still more as any tank has) would be fair enough and adding instead a small arty barrage to 88´s to keep the weapon cost effective and as good support for the luftwaffe infantry. 88´s had simply been mulipurpose weapons and i dont see why it cant be reflected in game like that.


Beside that this 100 range is a voch thing (otherwise i wouldnt understand why emplaced one got 75 range) just in vcoh it wasnt usefull vs inf, not a oneshot unit and off map arty strikes could be called in all few seconds as long as the player has enough ammo. In Bk cost of 88´s and the tanks the 88 usually faces are so far the same as in vcoh just that in BK the 88 oneshots any tank (while tanks needs the same ammount of hits to kill an 88 like in voch).


So 88´s with 75 range and arty barrage would be primarily anti air and arty support weapon which provides also very good defensive capabilties able to knock out any tank and infantry coming into range.

What i agree with is that luft would receive a significant nerf if the 88´s wouldnt have 100 range anymore (and instead normal pak range like the emplaced 88) so an arty barrage ability in trade for a range decrease to 75 seems fair to me. Also the unemplaced one shouldnt be so freaking resistant to arty strikes or direct fire (or satchels) and a barrage of 105 should be able to destroy the unemplaced version.

and honetsly.... a weapon that cost 400/50 which fills the role as paks, anti air gun and arty unit seems very fair to me even when it has "only pak range" and "only as durable as a pak or any other howitzer".


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