4 vs 4 BETA Stop Talking Nonsense

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Warhawks97
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4 vs 4 BETA Stop Talking Nonsense

Post by Warhawks97 »

I upload this bc i just watched the replay and read all the crap written there like german TD´s are crap, allis outspam, axis cant ambush/expose themself, have no support and other bullshit.




Allis:
Kowk (AB)
Wald (Armor)
Me (inf)
Don (RE)

vs

maeglin (def)
Mantis (Luft)
Tigar (Tank support)
Auto-Biceps (Tank support)



I mean like srsyl. You complain about axis are shit and allis tanks OP. My answer to that is:
If you have no AT weapon, every Tank is OP!

srsly, non of you had any god damn AT gun or weapon when Wald went straight for E8. Your only AT consisted of i think 28 mm stuff and a HT packed with two AT squads, frontal charging an E8 and almost killing it. Thats probably the reason why you wanted forward shooting schrecks for WH bc that way you can stupidly frontal charge a Pershing, fire four schrecks and kill it in a full speed maneuver like playing fucking GTA V.


Thats why i would say schrecks/zooks should have accuracy penalty when shooting from moving vehicles and perhaps shouldnt fire even forward but only sidewards.


On Top of that, when you had 1400 MP, over 200 fuel and whats not.... you want to tell me that you cant afford support for your tanks or getting a tank at all? WTF. You could have had grens, hetzers, Puma AT, 50 mm AT..... 20 mm cars....But everything you had were like 20 schwimmwagens? really?

This was abuse at its finest:


1. Frontal shooting zooks out vehicles
2. Schwimmwagens MG that literally overpowers every other MG of its kind. (I admit i abuse it too from time to time).


And simply alone for the reason how you wasted the Jagdpanther, sending it out into a lone deep strike mission without target informations, surrounded by enemies, turning the rear to an TD while enemie tanks came from all sides, and then complaining the Tank is a 1000MP /180 MP ressource fail bc you lost it to a hidden M10 to which you turned your rear, is just hilarious. Thats the moment where i whish their tanks would cost 3000 MP just to punish them hard enough.

Its moments like these i see in every game with brain dead axis players losing their tanks in a most stupid, brain dead way and then complaining they are shit, makes me go crazy. And the funny thing is, most get away with such moves!

If pershing had dared such a trip, lonely, without vision and support, it would have died much earlier. That single Jagdpanther actually made us running away with tanks and thats why i ordered Don (Mencius) to get several 17 pdr emplacmants bc i expected that at some point of the game a brain dead axis tank would sooner or later run into our lines. I just expected it much earlier. And the best counter to brain dead axis Tanks is to use boring emplacments. Because allied TD´s die way too often to such stupid axis tanks that go on a solo wild hunt in undiscovered regions.



So, i make a short list of the stupidity in this game and why i decided to upload the game.


Min 8:
Look at what allied had: Nothing but a 37 mm by kwok and a 57 mm HT by me. Don had not build the last Truck, i had no tank depot, only wald had it but no fuel, no MP and no supply yard. So 76 sherman was miles away from hiting the field. Wald was just getting a 76 mm AT gun.

What axis had: You could have already began Tank IV F2 mass production. But you went witt the Jäger command. But even that one could have provided you at least with a Marder in case a sherman would show up.

Your mate teched slowly althouh he had the fuel.
Mantis already had arty!

So if you guys would have been smart enough with a minimum of team coordination (But axis generally refuse to play as a team and thus lose and complain) and having one Tank support guy spamming F2´s and pressuring the enemie, while one player would have build some AT weapons, things would have looked super bad for us. We hadnt anything to counter arty and F2 combo.

But good for us, you stayed passive although having many chances to grap the initiative. And if Mantis hadnt been so focused on the city and his luft inf, he could have provided decent support with inf and planes.


And that all at min 8, when we as allied were just about to gather an army that can actually do something. So WTF are you complaining about?

I would say that axis at min 8-10 had the full lead in terms of tec, defense, ressources and units available, vision.

Min 10:
Instead that any of the Tank support players starts pushing with F2´s, they build only 20 mm guns. Thats surely the purpose of a Tank Support Doc: Building lots of 20 mm guns.



Min 15-17:
Wald sends in first e8 and no axis player bothered to build any nicely hidden AT gun or Marder or whatever. Tiger goes straight for big tanks and biceps just now realizes that he has a doctrine that can build tanks and starts building an f2.
Tiger also frontal charges a sherman with his schreck HT. And almost gets way with it. He loses units worth 970 MP and says "he cant afford support for his tanks". Thats literally a F2 and Hetzer or Any Tank and gren squad and 20 mm armed vehicle that just like that made "puff". But off course, axis can not afford units bc its soo expensive.
AT the same time a JP IV/70 is in production.


Min 17:
IV/70 being build.


Min 21:
Tiger has over 1300 MP and 160 fuel but builds no more TD´s and comlains about US tank spam. he could have gotten some nicely hidden Hetzers somewhere on the left side when wald had just like one sherman.
Wald has meanwhile all his units except for one tank and all his ressources committed into combat so far. Losing them would have meant he had no safe back up.
So, in terms of numbers, there could have been far superior numbers of F2´s and jagdpanzer and AT guns on the field hidden nicely somewhere. Basically more TD´s than shermans.

In the following moments, The TD does not go into ambush, not even trying to sit in crater and instead tried previously to hunt a tulip. Allied already had a breakthrough on the left bc axis didnt bother to get any AT weapon at all. Of course, allied Tanks are OP bc it requires AT weapons to kill them. To bad axis dont have a global skill that makes all allied tanks disappear in an explosion. So they have to bother spending ressources into actual AT weapons, what a shame.

But even then, in an combined effort it might have been possible to repell that attack perhaps. But Axis have wasted over 10 minutes with doing nothing but building 20 mm guns and camping behind sandbags.
Except mantis has wasted time and units into pointless city attacks.

All the allied had to do was to keep axis arty as small as possible and to outgun them. Then crushing the 20 mm guns and build up own forces.


So, basically, we got AT guns too late, non existed and e8 pushed through. IV/70 went for a hunt against tulip and got flanked by three e8, was hit by one or two arty strikes and finally the inf doc 75 mm HT killed it. The e8 failed with their guns most of the times. Just one pen hit so far.

So we had an investment of over 200 ammo in total, 1200 MP for e8, 440 MP for two tank commanders and 300 MP into a 75 mm AT halftrack and a well coordinated attack on a single 600 MP axis jagdpanzer to kill it which fought from a crazy unfavourable non-ambush position and which the shermans could thus flank and fire first. And still, all shermans got damaged and had to retreat.

And why wald has no combat ready units available anymore but one e8 and ressources to get just one more, Tiger sits at crazy 1500 MP and 170 fuel. Enough to build two more TD and some inf.

But ofc, the axis TD´s are weak. Without arty, it would have probably even killed one of the three shermans and retreated safely.
But axis TD arent worth their cost. Any Jacks that would have exposed itself to hunt a cheap german tank would have died just by getting flanked by a single Tank IV. And this thing withstands three shermans before being killed by arty.
The price of this unit is ofc unbearable. No question about that! Lets make them cost 400 MP.


Min 25:
Hetzer charges into several shermans and dies. Ofc they are also just usless.



Min 28:
Jagdpanther on the field and on a reckless hunt for shermans through an urban area. Absolutely what its meant to do. Gets shot almost in the rear by zooks but all bounce. The first moment of "i dont care what i do, i payed 1000 MP so i can do whatever i want" moment. Like "Oh, you shoot my rear, you cant damage me bc i have payed so much for it" bullshit.

At that time, Wald is left with just three e8 and not enough fuel for a Pershing. That single Jagdpanther alone coud in theory smash wald at that moment, just its good that Don backed us all up with 17 pdrs.


the three e8 move on to the now exposed but actually well placed TD from maeglin. The only TD on axis side that got used with brain in this game. Too bad for him that his mates didnt know how to use axis TD´s or how to field at weapons at all or to set up tank ambushes.



Min 30:

Jagdpanther escapes from second bad moment when zooks and RL jeep roled in. All missed or bounced.
He had res to produce more TD´s to back the JP up. But he didnt. Hetzer from second TS doc player does not go into ambush.

Min 31:
Jagdpanther is surrounded by RL jeep, hidden M10 Wolverine, 75 mm arty HT and Achilles bc it drove without support and reconassaince into the enemie lines and made them run.

He still kills the arty HT but by doing so turning his rear to the hidden wolverine that makes an perfect engine hit.


After that the complain starts that axis TD´s arent wort it bla bla.

srsly, they all got used in the most stupid way imaginable and often got away with it or required huge efforts to be killed or ambushes to be set up.
This was the third very bad almost no brainer move with the JP. First getting away with the zooks from AB and then from Zooks and RL jeep.
And yet, this tank killed targets almost as expensive as its build cost. One e8 and one 75 mm HT and contributed in the destruction of a second e8 by pressing it into schrecks. So its presence caused the loss of allied units worth over 1000 MP and over 100 fuel. And thats despite the fact that it got fielded into an already lost battle.



So much about axis TD are bad, or axis cant spam as good or whatever bullshit. If axis had just used ordinary AT, things would have been way different.

When Tiger lost the JP he said that he had no ressources to support it. But he had 1300 MP and 126 fuel in reserve.
@Tiger: Was that sentence a joke? You also had 5 schwimmwagens as support to shred all inf and to possibly repair. No other axis player had that many ressources but ofc you couldnt afford support units.

On Top of that, we had a well planned strategy before the game with decent coordination and probably allied player with the most experience gathered in one team. And still the beginning was rather though.



And then he said all axis TD are nerfed to death. Jesus fucking christ. Learn how to use ambush and know how to use normal units like normal TD´s, vehicles, infantry.... and not just just schwimwagens and then one super tank which arrives when the game is lost already.
As allied you have to use every unit you can think off and using them wisley.
The main reason axis lose games like this is bc they dont want to bother with normal units, dont want to attack, dont want to spend ressources into anything but super units.


All your tanks like JP and elephant came when the game was over already and we destroyed them via team effort.


dont blame units and docs for bad playing. Every single TD here on axis side could have killed twice its own number if was used correctly and early enough.
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Walderschmidt
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Re: 4 vs 4 BETA Stop Talking Nonsense

Post by Walderschmidt »

WELL DONE.gif
Well done.

I don't always agree with you about everything but holy shit.

I bow down to this call out.

Wald
Kwok is an allied fanboy!

AND SO IS DICKY

AND MARKR IS THE BIGGGEST ALLIED FANBOI OF THEM ALL

kwok
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Posts: 2026
Joined: 29 Mar 2015, 05:22

Re: 4 vs 4 BETA Stop Talking Nonsense

Post by kwok »

I don't think Tiger was blaming THIS game as bad docs though. I think we all knew going in the game was super duper unbalanced. I slept that game and afk'd a lot of it purely because I had full confidence in my team being able to 3v4 regardless of what doctrine/faction was played. I don't think Tiger was saying THIS game is an example of how the doctrine is balanced AT ALL. I even remember hearing him say that multiple times on discord, he wants to talk about it separate from the game.

Unless there's some convo somewhere else I don't know of. I just hope the game/doctrines are more fun at least, we can balance it over time.

Also, I want to get a screenshot of my rocket strike killing walder's vet 4 sherman and make that my wallpaper or icon whenever I message him.

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Warhawks97
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Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: 4 vs 4 BETA Stop Talking Nonsense

Post by Warhawks97 »

kwok wrote:
26 Jul 2020, 22:38
I don't think Tiger was blaming THIS game as bad docs though. I think we all knew going in the game was super duper unbalanced. I slept that game and afk'd a lot of it purely because I had full confidence in my team being able to 3v4 regardless of what doctrine/faction was played. I don't think Tiger was saying THIS game is an example of how the doctrine is balanced AT ALL. I even remember hearing him say that multiple times on discord, he wants to talk about it separate from the game.

Unless there's some convo somewhere else I don't know of. I just hope the game/doctrines are more fun at least, we can balance it over time.

Also, I want to get a screenshot of my rocket strike killing walder's vet 4 sherman and make that my wallpaper or icon whenever I message him.

what got me is that shit talk i have with some axis players when they say "i couldnt do/get anything" while sitting like in max res.
Or when they dont use proper AT and say crap like "i couldnt stop the tanks" while there were tons of options available in their buildings.

After that i played a second game that couldnt be more stupid. I had to go def doc coz others took BK and terror. I had solid def and arty and all others also went for defensive stuff and arty. At some point of the game two allied player were completely down but we kept artying stuff that didnt exist and prepared for attacks that never could happen.

And finally two players made a cross country voyage with two panthers and a tiger to swap over to the other side coz i told them the defense is down there. And they drove over the middle of the map accross the frontline and no vision. I told them not to drive this route due to flanking enemie tanks but guess what? They did it and lost three elite tanks. I could have started crying for so much bullshit.

You want me to also upload that? Finally we lost with dozens of panthers and tigers and sturmtiger while the enemie had nothing. Very late a SP came and several comets but up that time we could have walked over the map with no resistance but no one did.

I saw so much no-brain bullcrap in two games in a row. And then i read stuff like "i cant do anything".

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: 4 vs 4 BETA Stop Talking Nonsense

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

kwok wrote:
26 Jul 2020, 22:38
I don't think Tiger was blaming THIS game as bad docs though. I think we all knew going in the game was super duper unbalanced. I slept that game and afk'd a lot of it purely because I had full confidence in my team being able to 3v4 regardless of what doctrine/faction was played. I don't think Tiger was saying THIS game is an example of how the doctrine is balanced AT ALL. I even remember hearing him say that multiple times on discord, he wants to talk about it separate from the game.

Unless there's some convo somewhere else I don't know of. I just hope the game/doctrines are more fun at least, we can balance it over time.

Also, I want to get a screenshot of my rocket strike killing walder's vet 4 sherman and make that my wallpaper or icon whenever I message him.
+1

i already stopped playing after the left flank was outspammed by E8s and the center was bombarded with Tulips.. didn't really want to continue playing as i knew teams were fked up anyways, so i managed to type my thoughts on the chat (based on various games i played on the BETA and NOT THIS GAME in particular which i repeated 100000 times during my Discord voice chat with him) but apparently Hawks sometimes likes to lurks on such games and analyse them in detail even when they are not competitive or balanced to begin with, i mean; if i did the same thing and re-watched every second game or each time when he raged in the chat throughout the middle of the game and stopped playing while starting to complain... Then i'm pretty sure that i would come up with a lot of luxury content to post, but i obviously don't have the same devotion of waving similar bullshit, neither the desire of wasting my time in thin air.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 4 vs 4 BETA Stop Talking Nonsense

Post by Warhawks97 »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
26 Jul 2020, 23:15
kwok wrote:
26 Jul 2020, 22:38
I don't think Tiger was blaming THIS game as bad docs though. I think we all knew going in the game was super duper unbalanced. I slept that game and afk'd a lot of it purely because I had full confidence in my team being able to 3v4 regardless of what doctrine/faction was played. I don't think Tiger was saying THIS game is an example of how the doctrine is balanced AT ALL. I even remember hearing him say that multiple times on discord, he wants to talk about it separate from the game.

Unless there's some convo somewhere else I don't know of. I just hope the game/doctrines are more fun at least, we can balance it over time.

Also, I want to get a screenshot of my rocket strike killing walder's vet 4 sherman and make that my wallpaper or icon whenever I message him.
+1

i already stopped playing after the left flank was outspammed by E8s and the center was bombarded with Tulips.. didn't really want to continue playing as i knew teams were fked up anyways, so i managed to type my thoughts on the chat (based on various games i played on the BETA and NOT THIS GAME in particular which i repeated 100000 times during my Discord voice chat with him) but apparently Hawks sometimes likes to lurks on such games and analyse them in detail even when they are not competitive or balanced to begin with, i mean; if i did the same thing and re-watched every second game or each time when he raged in the chat throughout the middle of the game and stopped playing while starting to complain... Then i'm pretty sure that i would come up with a lot of luxury content to post, but i obviously don't have the same devotion of waving similar bullshit, neither the desire of wasting my time in thin air.


teams were fucked up. I heared that many times and in many occassions the fucked up team fucked the other one up. I think it wasnt so impossible to win for the axis here. It was actually just the new guy that threw perhaps the balance a bit off. You took the center and a solid defense on the right, just lacked a dude pushing and some AT stuff.


Anyway, we can try this again but with a few more players on axis side that have more skill and know how to use TD´s. And organized in Discord as well.

I just feel bad for those players who really play a game like mantis and maeglin being left alone bc one dude in the game thinks the game is lost anyway which it clearly wasnt. Even if the town is lost for a brief moment. Its not the end of everything.



In the second game the teams were also fucked up with two new guys on axis side this time but we put up a heavy fight, pushed you back on your side but simply had no one that really went for attacking/pushing. And as def doc you dont have that many options to do so as with prop and bk doc. We had a real chance to win.

How are new players supposed to learn when those from who they could learn literally give up before the game even started? Thats not fair at all.

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Mantis
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Re: 4 vs 4 BETA Stop Talking Nonsense

Post by Mantis »

I held Menicious by the throat very long time. Was necessary attack and rush city in rigt down corner. He is very good player. Many of my planes was destroyed. Left flank was the most problematic part of the game. On the right wing aggressive battle for every house, on the left wing only white flag. Really nice game for your analysis Hawk. Bravo!

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Krieger Blitzer
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Re: 4 vs 4 BETA Stop Talking Nonsense

Post by Krieger Blitzer »

How are new players supposed to learn when those from who they could learn literally give up before the game even started? Thats not fair at all.

Actually.. during this game; Maeglin at the middle of the game addressed me saying: "Tigar, wtf are you doing? if you want to lose, go join the other team" but i'm not sure if the Axis team chat is visible in the replay file when it's uploaded by a participant of the opposite team... Regardless; clearly i wasn't motivated to play the game as i pointed this out in the lobby even before it starts since i believed the team balance was horrible, and later when we talked on Discord after the game, i still mentioned how i didn't refer to this game in particular as i knew the outcome anyways. Yet, quite shameful how you are trying to take advantage of this.. first balance the teams; then come talk to me about what's fair.


Also, i would like to repeat this again; if i do the same and lurk on your behavior during games; then trust me.. there would be a lot of funny stuff to post from my side.. but like i said; my position doesn't encourage me to react in such a low motive.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 4 vs 4 BETA Stop Talking Nonsense

Post by Warhawks97 »

Krieger Blitzer wrote:
27 Jul 2020, 18:05
How are new players supposed to learn when those from who they could learn literally give up before the game even started? Thats not fair at all.

Actually.. during this game; Maeglin at the middle of the game addressed me saying: "Tigar, wtf are you doing? if you want to lose, go join the other team" but i'm not sure if the Axis team chat is visible in the replay file when it's uploaded by a participant of the opposite team... Regardless; clearly i wasn't motivated to play the game as i pointed this out in the lobby even before it starts since i believed the team balance was horrible, and later when we talked on Discord after the game, i still mentioned how i didn't refer to this game in particular as i knew the outcome anyways. Yet, quite shameful how you are trying to take advantage of this.. first balance the teams; then come talk to me about what's fair.


Also, i would like to repeat this again; if i do the same and lurk on your behavior during games; then trust me.. there would be a lot of funny stuff to post from my side.. but like i said; my position doesn't encourage me to react in such a low motive.

you guys had a chance to win. Just as we as axis in the second game had a chance to win many times over although with two newbies in our team.
So a game is never lost before it starts.

This way "good players" will always be good bc the legend of being some sort of " Überhuman" arround them is so big that no one even tries to win against them. Thus the unbeatable stay unbeatable not bc they are unbeatable, but because everbody gives up before a game starts.


In the game before, Mantis and Maeglin have beaten us. So you had just one newbie in your team this round. And the left side was for the most part vulnerable to even the slightest tank push. There was no defense at all and at some point wald had no units and no res left. But you guys just didnt push bc the believe that our team was some sort of "super players".

I tell you something, kowk isnt as good in teamfights as many believe, esspecially during early to mid stage. He is super good in 1 vs 1 on bigger maps but thats an entire different world.


@Manits:
The left side was problematic for you bc your team didnt even try to push for anything. For the most part, our left flank was unprotected. You actually pushed the town which was the best defended area basically.

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