"other ways"

[Warhawks97]

4.8.5 LaFiere

Dr.Zhivago
Polar Bear
Sukin-Kot as allied. Docs:

AB, INF, Armor

vs axis

Crimax
kuba.Ruzek
HerrObersturmbannführerWurf with docs:

SE, Def, Terror


This is a very nasty example of how "other ways than arty" do simply fail. Wolf, pls, whats your opinion or advie how to crack that defense. THIS is the reason why we hate limit on arty so MUCH. THIS is why CW arty doc is always choosen just to make sure to have somethign against this shit.

Also why has US NOTHING to get through there. I gave some advises to sukin or at least i tried to help. he used arty sherman, 3 howitzers with VT, Mortars and Mortar VT, AB satchels, Armor doc callis but NOTHING went through that defense. Just why is there NOTHING on US side to get through there?! And why have axis in pretty much every doc better defense, better anti tank, better Heavy tanks and better arty as US? The single arty sherman sometimes couldnt even prevent that a damn bunker is finished!


I ask you and others three important things now:

1. What are the "Other ways" to break such defense if NOT arty?. WHAT and where are they? 81 mm mortars? lmfao!
2. Where is the US quantity advantage? Ive seen non, only Huge axis inf blobbs and TH´s and bunkers occuring even when they got smashed entirely sometimes!
3. The most important question esspecially regarding to the new "Ubermenschen topic": Where is the (not existing) quantity usefull? srsly... how can quantity help here when every sherman is simply knocked out by Tankhunters, nashorns, schrecks etc regardless of the number and when entire infantry blobbs simply stuck against a single Scout vehicle or MG42?


This is a glorious sample how fail arty limit is, how far away "quantity vs quality" is and how pointless quantity gameplay currently is!

Sukin begged me to upload that game as he was to pissed now. And esspecially armor doc has absolutely nothing to deal with such defenses. The hilarious calli makes some scratches on HT´s maybe but thats all.... and cost 800 and 95 ammo per salvo. A walking stuka is by lenght better against defenses and tanks etc.


Get simply rid of arty limit and give either the neccessary quantity to US (which is kinda pointless as even the number "endless" soldiers would get stopped by a single MG used by superhumans with superbullets.) Or somehow something to deal with such nasty defenses. I am always wondering how atlantic wall could fail when i see such games in BK.


Kinda Bullshit. And you guys wonder why CW arty is a must as allied....


btw. I made a game with sukin where i literally outnumbered US armor with IV/70´s and JP´s and where JP could only get killed by friendly arty. 2 Hellcats from very close distant attacking from two sides with vet couldnt kill a single JP during several attempts. Maybe you guys want to see it as well.

Edit: Oh, and dont think this happens only on la fiere. This happend to me at hürtgenwald, reversed defense, vire river extended.... at basically every map (even la chaudiere and villers bocage BK-ModTipp). Actually on every 3 vs 3 map and many 4 vs 4 maps. So dont even give this comment: play another map. We dont need that now, we need solutions, thx.

[MeatshieldNZ]

I feel for you Warhawks because I too have a grand vision of breaking through the axis lines with 8 Shermans and wreaking havoc in their rear areas but as the game stands this just isn't possible for many reasons. I think you are literally asking too much of the Dev team which consists of one guy who is doing this voluntarily in his spare time along with one assistant who can help with bug fixing only. Also the limitations of the game engine are a big factor. Allies should be able to drop smoke that actually works on that bunker so it cant see your troops getting in behind. US bombing runs should pulverise any static defenses into rubble. Problem is that would take so much work it isn't realistic to expect Wolf to do this, especially with COH2 modding starting to become available. All I could suggest is that Wolf releases Beta versions to your group of PVP Hardcore to test, this would help with the lack of manpower at least. I personally am pinning my hopes on BK2, it is just a newer better engine to work with and comes with so many advantages like auto updating for getting a much larger player base.

[crimax]

Just some short questions I really like to know .....

1) Why, if game was balanced, do you talk of "shit" ? Do you mean too much artillery or too much defence ? Both ?
I only had a walking-stuka, I've seen dozens of infantry fights, many tanks, spotters, mortars, snipers, assaults on both sides. In my opinion, I've seen better matches but I disagree with your exaggerations.

2) Our opponents are in the best-players list atm, why nobody chosen RA doc ? Could not be simply a wrong doctrine's choice ?

3) Where you were when I asked many times, to reduce the artillery role in this mod ?
Only two docs got a nerf: Def and Inf. The result ? Inf VS SE suck. Def VS RA suck.
Is this balancing ? Only now you recognize all this "shit" ?

[Krieger Blitzer]

This match almost ended up as a draw actually... But no, u have uploaded several other game replays with ur own on the same map where u played with ur mates as Allies; specifically (as an example) is that one under the topic titled as 'Insane Game/No arty docs' when u had so many fortifications as well

Bunkers needed only 2 satchel charges to be totally destroyed as I saw.. This isn't a big deal I think!!
However that I was honestly really happy to see that one of the Pershing tanks which was on the middle of the map, won against the Panther G 1 on 1 at the end after being able to bounce off several shells fired by both the Panther and the Panzer4 at the same time I thought it would lose as usually but great thing is that it didn't

Why u always keep whining for the Allies while mentioning that it's 'stupid' and posting topics titled same even if they sometimes won the game already??!!
Stop posting this shit Hawks X_X

[Warhawks97]

Just some short questions I really like to know .....

1) Why, if game was balanced, do you talk of "shit" ? Do you mean too much artillery or too much defence ? Both ?
I only had a walking-stuka, I've seen dozens of infantry fights, many tanks, spotters, mortars, snipers, assaults on both sides. In my opinion, I've seen better matches but I disagree with your exaggerations.

2) Our opponents are in the best-players list atm, why nobody chosen RA doc ? Could not be simply a wrong doctrine's choice ?

3) Where you were when I asked many times, to reduce the artillery role in this mod ?
Only two docs got a nerf: Def and Inf. The result ? Inf VS SE suck. Def VS RA suck.
Is this balancing ? Only now you recognize all this "shit" ?

1.) Crazy defense and just a single arty unit on US side that needs to deal with it.

2.) If you havent followed the forum i will tell you again: Devs want less arty but leaving no chance to players to play without CW arty.... thats.. weird? Just stupid that arty doc is the only allied doc that gets early arty to prevent camping and which can counter neblers. Without it its hard to interup the defenisve playing in early game and scout vehicles easily buy enough time for the other players to build lots of defensive stuff. I dont want to play always only AB,ARMOR,CW arty. I mean as axis i can combine several docs without lacking anything. But as allied in kind of "pro fights" airborne, armor and CW arty is a must. That becomes boring.


3.) I did never considered BK as arty game. I liked the old versions which only prob was the early cheap nebler spam with 35 ammo VT. Heavy defenses like this got simply crashed by inf doc and RA wasnt neccessary. Crazy camping behind such strong defenses got crushed quickly.

[Wolf]

Just some short questions I really like to know .....

1) Why, if game was balanced, do you talk of "shit" ? Do you mean too much artillery or too much defence ? Both ?
I only had a walking-stuka, I've seen dozens of infantry fights, many tanks, spotters, mortars, snipers, assaults on both sides. In my opinion, I've seen better matches but I disagree with your exaggerations.

2) Our opponents are in the best-players list atm, why nobody chosen RA doc ? Could not be simply a wrong doctrine's choice ?

3) Where you were when I asked many times, to reduce the artillery role in this mod ?
Only two docs got a nerf: Def and Inf. The result ? Inf VS SE suck. Def VS RA suck.
Is this balancing ? Only now you recognize all this "shit" ?

1.) Crazy defense and just a single arty unit on US side that needs to deal with it.

2.) If you havent followed the forum i will tell you again: Devs want less arty but leaving no chance to players to play without CW arty.... thats.. weird? Just stupid that arty doc is the only allied doc that gets early arty to prevent camping and which can counter neblers. Without it its hard to interup the defenisve playing in early game and scout vehicles easily buy enough time for the other players to build lots of defensive stuff. I dont want to play always only AB,ARMOR,CW arty. I mean as axis i can combine several docs without lacking anything. But as allied in kind of "pro fights" airborne, armor and CW arty is a must. That becomes boring.

3.) I did never considered BK as arty game. I liked the old versions which only prob was the early cheap nebler spam with 35 ammo VT. Heavy defenses like this got simply crashed by inf doc and RA wasnt neccessary. Crazy camping behind such strong defenses got crushed quickly.

I also think that you are a bit exaggerating warhawks.

For once I don't think that the bunkers were that much of a problem in some parts of the game. However I agree that on noodle map mortar bunker and perma MGs are a pain (thats why its always better to prevent them to build it, but you know that). Its a shame that attack on 33 minute +- didn't go through, as I believe that was the point when allies could have turn the game in their favor. Btw from that time - PolarBear 1474 manpower, 574 munnition, 192 fuel - DrZhivago - 496 MP, 600 Munni, 350 fuel, sadly he didn't have atleast calli jeeps (good for revealing and damaging MGs / ATs, even for some inf kills) or air strikes and went for AB teams only. Sukin - 1807 MP, 66 munni, 180 fuel... so you can't really say they were lacking on resources. That situation goes to like 41th minute. Even if armor doesn't have any arty at the moment, it can still use munnition for various boost of M20 for example, rather than wasting it. However it was nice that somebody used smoke, that I usually miss from "pro" games.

As for the doctrines goes, weird not seeing any CW in 3vs3, even if not arty, but whatever, thats not the point. As doctines goes - SE = arty doc of Axis, Defense = secondary arty doc of axis, Terror - not as much arty, but probably more than BK/Luft/TH, so three of the most arty docs of axis. Versus one secondary arty doctrine, and non arty doctrines. You might have to count AB as arty partly too, some airstrikes did nasty things - with lesser costs next patch, that could be even more apparent. You can't say that satchels did low damage to bunkers, that is one way for example, to break defense. Calliope seemed to be used a bit more against some armored targets, rather than inf blobs/clearing ATs, but I noticed that only like two times, didn't follow it, so it might have been an exception. Of course that when you are facing heavy arty based opposition, that you have to play clever, having mortar bunker against you when using a lot of inf is deadly. And they actually played well, I would have some objections on middle part of the game, but still, there were times, when it was very close.

Funny how on one hand, 2 neblers are so low, that they are useless, but on the other hand, when its used in argument, they are suddenly good/need counters etc. I stand behind that limiting nebels is right way to go. "Heavy defenses like this got simply crashed by inf doc " Again, on one hand, you are telling me, how you didn't even had enough munnitions to fire more of them, howitzers were more costly, you did not have VT, yet you are now trying to tell me, that if in that situation you had like what? 6 howitzers? then you could shoot them and it would be solved? What would you destroy then?Naah... I can understand, that one more 105 sherman would probably help allies overall, but not in "crushing defences". I don't think that this particular game proves anything on how arty is limited. How exactly would having like +2 howitzers help you (I noticed 3 on sukin part, didn't watch it closely however, so not sure if he had 4 or not in the end, but they were on edge of the map), when you wouldn't have VT = you probably wouldn't even have enough munnition? If you would conserve munnition in that situation in they were in 1 hour+, they would be crushed + the distance would maybe be too far to even get there - you would have to get your howitzers closer, to which you were always objecting, like its useless, because they would be destroyed, cause stationary. So again, I think you are exaggerating with "Heavy defenses like this got simply crashed by inf doc and RA wasnt neccessary."

[Warhawks97]

Thing is that we never used CW arty so often as currently. The advantage it with two arty shermans is that one can try counter enemie arty while the other prevents furter bunker production. One Arty sherman is literally just enough to prevent the next bunker is being build. When shooting at enemie arty for example the next bunker is up during salvo and cooldownd. Two arty shermans could counter enemie arty by preventing further defenses. Also as long as just one effective arty unit is avaialble what else inf doc can do when not pointless perament shooting untill running out of ammo? No howitzer limit could have allowed him to deploy several howitzers along the frontline and hidden if possibe by enemie reccons by using M20 or jeeps. And when a 400 ammo is saved he could have crushed the entire defense or at least all the paks, scout cars, Panther bunker and then mortar bunker with final massive VT. Also a number of unflexible could have countered mobile howitzers better. Cheaper howitzers doesnt help to balance it against moveables as long as they cant outnumber them. That way you could also limit shermans lets say to four 75 mm units and Tigers to two units and saying then "you can build more shermans as the enemie can build Tiger because they are cheaper". Just it would never help as they would never be able to effectively outnumber them.


Also late rhe got like 300+ ammo but no arty units. VT requires a lot of reccons as you could see. It was a fight of the reccons. Without limit he could have used 3 howitzers for some VT´s against Mortar bunker without wasting res for an emplaced one which could have been a cheaper unemplaced.

Also where to build howitzers that are not supposed to be used only by VT? If you build them just in range to crack forward bunkers and trenches by stay as far from enemie arty as possible then the defense would make like three steps back and its done.


Also why is only the "primary" allied arty doc able to crush heaviest defenses while pretty much every axis is able to do so? SE and def have no prob at all with defenses (esspecially when stupa can outrange them again in next patch fireing 150 mm shells for free). BK doc... little probs. I dont even need stuhs to break defenses with BK doc. Terror just needs to save some ammo and double walking stuka will punch a whole into enemie defenses which then can be used to push through with grens, KT and a further nebler VT used by combat units without need of special reccons. Luftwaffe has it a bit harder since US AA works properly but still i succeeded with 3 -4 88 in halfway save place to crack enemie defenses using VT ability combined with inf attack. Later then i did build my 88 in direct range and used 100 range advantage so at the end i dominated by having 10 or more 88 accross the field. A single arty sherman and priest always only decrewed my weapons but i had always some inf ready to reman those 88. the TH doc... depends actually on 17 pounders fielded or not. If there arent any JP and at least JT are great to do breakthroughs. Also some players succeeded using 2-3 Hotchkiss to break enemie defenses or at least their 17 pounders. And axis most of the time need to punch just one hole and when this is then floated with grens, luft inf, Panthers or whatever its very had to close that hole as allied and to push the enemie back. AB and and Armor may can succeed with AB inf and pershings to close it but inf, RE, arty etc have large problems to close such holes in their defense again. Axis provide often nice stuff to close such punches pretty effectively. Doesnt matter if Tankbusters again, simply some Marder I´s, grens and assault grens or simply Panthers and Tigers or KT. Punching a hole and to use it to win the game is easier as axis but also its easier to close such holes in the own defenses. Also axis have much better "defense preventation weapons" as they have simply lots of arty stuff early and for free in several docs: leig 18 which is a quite cool thing actually and helped even against RE recently to prevent RE setting up too strong defense, neblers, maultier, walking stuka not really counted here as this is best to crack already existing heavy defense but can be also used as preventation weapon. Maybe even stuh can count as such, officer with off map arty strike as well. so its also a question who can better prevent the enemie to get up heavy defenses. Unless CW arty doc is choosen again it looks pretty bad with "camping preventation".

Its the question why pretty much every axis doc has somehow stuff available to break some defenses, other better than others but it never looks so impossible. Short view at my unit list and a quickly find stuff to solve the problems.


I agree that allied hold back many res where they could have won the game but i see the same very often on axis side but there nobody says: "you had your chance, you didnt used it". But suddenly as Allied: "You had your chance at min 31. Too bad, you missed it and now you must lose the game. Too bad men, sorry!". Just wtf. Also for what could they use res? I only agree with calli jeeps. Sukin used it for arty sherman, OP points, heavy mortars and Jumbos which was very smart. But what can US armor player do with 1400 mp etc? Building 4 shermans? Nice try..... ive counted at least 5 paks calibre 50 mm and 75 mm which would do an easy job with any sherman. Also when they started pushing axis players quickly deployed Marder I and axis players had a simiiar ammount of res in their storage. So a massproduction of shermans would have ended in paks and Marder I and TH and schreck spam. So i can blaim only AB player for not using calli jeeps actually.


About AB airstrikes: Bomb run doesnt really scratch such a small bunker... so it doesnt play a huge role. Also as you could see is that AB bomber patrole is usually used during offense against enemie defensive forces usually. Its for me simply weird that bomber with 2x 125 kg bombs do fly in only when there is an enemie tank or vehicle but never to crush emplacments and Bunkers. So Airstikres would become really more usefull when the Bomber patrole would also target emplacments and bunkers. I thinkt thats the main purpose of bombs and not to crush some HT´s which can be killed by a quick salvo of 8 cal 50 MG´s. The cost efficency in new patch of the P-47 bomb run is still quesionable since its similiar effective as the Stuka for 125 ammo and mostly and best used against Emplacments. Off map arty strikes and ju-87 do cost also only 125-150 ammo just P-47 still 200 ammo although it not more effective.


I also said leave that comment with "on such maps". I already said that i faced such things at pretty much every game listed as "BK-modTipp" but also on many Vcoh maps like vimoutiers where this effect is even more horrible simly as a small part of defensive stuff do cover a large area of the map.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

What mostly pissed me in this battle....not even the fact that i couldnt do anything to a def spam, but the thing that our opponets played simply horrible, the only guy to which i can give respect for skill is Wurf, he used nearly all doc opportunities, gave us hell with 2 wespe+2 210mm nebel+mortar bunker + sector arty sometimes, snipers, nashorns which stopped jumbo, helped his teammates in repairing all that def shit. But crimax and kuba were simply awfull, stupid talantless game, one just was playing sim city (once he had 4 bunkers at this single fuel sector lol) and was shooting with Grille butching drs airborne, and wasted tankbusters in stupid frontall atacks. Second was shooting with Stuka to a single rifles and 101s squads and i didnt notice anything more, he once built panther, 3 times rebuild KT and always had 2 grens near frontline, thats all. Lets look at scores

Me - 110 000
Dr. - 95 000
Kill - 60 000

Wurf - 90 000
Kuba - 60 000
Crimax was arround 45 000

So, enemies team played horrible ( couldnt kill a single arty sherman with their 1000 arty pieces for a very long time, so it finally got vet 4). Crimax was a guy who could end a game with every minute he wanted, just had to build 2 Panther G, then crash my single 76mm nest on right side and rush there with panthers and masses of grens = GG, but he only did some freaky things like atack with a single KT without support ( that was a hilarious moment twice, we spent 30 mins clearing the area from fortifications, finally captured territory and here came KT which forced us to be busy for 3 mins even by that stupid frontal rush without support, so, we were pushed back for a few mins.....when we returned there were 4 bunkers again, and we again spent 30 minutes for clearing this shit after what again came KT with a mad frontall rush, pushed us back for few mins and they rebuilt 4 bunkers again......stupidiest game ever).

And now, tell me, what we did wrong and what we didnt use? I wanted to go for howitzers in early game for preventing this heavy bunkers spam, but Wespe was already on field when i was just about to build a first one, so i decided not to feed Wespes with howitzers (easy target for motorized arty) and went for arty sherman. We tryed to use fucking everything that usa docs can suggest: airstrikes, smoke, satchels, tank captain arty call in, all fortifications, jumbos, howitzers with VT, heavy mortars VT, masses of rifles and 101s, supply drops, shermans, pershings,arty call ins, long tom, caliope, 75 mm howitzers..... we also had good teamplay and assaults were pretty coordinated ( smoke the area, atack with 101s together with jumbos and pershings, support this with 300 ammo and all kinds of arty call ins) we all helped each other all over the map, i built emplacemets for protecmting every point, kill was covering all map with his tanks, dr. was running with his airborne here and there like a wild one, i only heard clickclickclickclick in ts. So, we used all we could and played on all sides, enemies just played their sides without any good coordination: def player seats on fuel and building sim sity, wurf seats with all his arty and units near mortar bunker ( sometimes helping kuba with th's and repairing) crimax.....no idea, he just played with some grens and stuka. And! What i wanted to say here! This guys mostly didnt even use their doc to a 50%, just my thoughts during game:

- Wurf can use sabotags squad to desable our mid ammo point, our spawn in house near our base, sprint and destroy my vt howitzers with satchels
- Wurf can call 2 Hummels and use them with VT giving us even more terrible arty hell
- Wurf can use stormgrenadiers with fire nades against airborne


- Kuba can build flaks behind his bunkers ( in that case we will not be able to atack at all)
- Kuba can build 105mm howitzers backwards and use them with Vt giving us even more terrible arty hell
- Kuba can place some mobelwagens for preventing airstrikes
- Kuba can exploit our defence with at teams runs ( def bonuse makes them immortal)
- Kuba can build some heal bunkers for crimaxs grens healing


- Crimax can build 2 nebels and use them with Vt giving us even more terrible arty hell
- Crimax can combine 2 panthers with stuka for making absolutely deadly assaults
- Crimax can use firestrom against airborne
- Crimax can drop V1 on my arty sherman

And we used all....but nothing helped. Shitty balance. Even with VT, i have to used it at least 3 to destroy a single bunker. As for mortar bunker......LOL, we had a 40 min crusade for xestroiyng it, long tom, 3 vts, thunderbolds, armor player arty call in, many arty sherman barrages.

1 question to you wolf, why the fuck defence VT have 3 times longer activation range, reflects Grille, which do 5 bloody 150mm shots like hummel, when with inf VT i have to crawl right close to bunker, which always means recon loss, activate it, and not even a single shitty arty sherman will shoot there!!?? I had 3 howitzers and they needed 3-5 Vts for a single bunker....bullshit.

@Tiger
Ye, we had many fortifications in "insane game" but what alied building cant be destroyed with a 1-2 stuka, hummel, 210mm nebel, grille, hotchkiss, wespe barrages? And look here, destroyin a single bunker was always a very complicated deal. You also must take a fact that all alied fortifications exept 107mm mortar and 17p nests are pure shit, mgs are rushed frontally with grens, 1 nade and crew dead, 76mm nest is a joke and can only scratch german heavies, all other alied shit is just dieing with 2 arty hits.

Why we played withot RA? Because we tired of always the same ab+arty+tanks, its the only combo which allows to have enough of everything (elite inf, arty, fortifications, res drop, tanks and tank busters, air support). Funny fact here, you know when last time our team lost as axis? It was 3 months ago, Me, Dr, Mg42 lost to Veto, blitzToBitz and Tharkun ( who are probably the best alied team coming after us, with also ts/scype using), you can find replay on old forume. After that we didnt loose a single battle as axis, no matter what docs we played, some examples (i mean everything about 3v3 games)

- 3 pe, each player have dif doc
- def + 2 terror
- se + 2 bk
- luft + bk + terror
- double def + th
- th + terror + luft

and many others.....

Really doesnt matter, every mate just went to a doc which he wanted and all fine. Gameplay is absolutely different, when we play alies we are very concentrated, there is no even a minute of silence in Ts "help me here, there, i need res, help with tanks, help with recons, build me some def pls" ans etc., there is no a termin "my side" playing alies, because all have to be everywhere. When we play axis all just go their sides and we dont even talking about game, laughing or discussing somethinh life questions, joking and etc., nearly no teamplay. We many times tryed other doc combinations as alies, but it always was god damn hard, or fail like here. With old combo we have something like 95% win rate and it simply became boring, cause we always argueing who will play airborne, as its the only fun doc, with tanks and arty is always the same scenario, one half of game seats with a couple of units and upgrading supply yard, second just build fortifications and shooting with priests from a save distance. But even though, people learnt much and last 2 times warhawks with his team was very close to victory. Finally we nearly stopped play axis because nobody plays with us in this case (warhawks, maeglin, great, yummy, blitzkrieger, wurf and etc.) they always want only as axis vs us, thats it.

[Warhawks97]

What mostly pissed me in this battle....not even the fact that i couldnt do anything to a def spam, but the thing that our opponets played simply horrible, the only guy to which i can give respect for skill is Wurf, he used nearly all doc opportunities, gave us hell with 2 wespe+2 210mm nebel+mortar bunker + sector arty sometimes, snipers, nashorns which stopped jumbo, helped his teammates in repairing all that def shit. But crimax and kuba were simply awfull, stupid talantless game, one just was playing sim city (once he had 4 bunkers at this single fuel sector lol) and was shooting with Grille butching drs airborne, and wasted tankbusters in stupid frontall atacks. Second was shooting with Stuka to a single rifles and 101s squads and i didnt notice anything more, he once built panther, 3 times rebuild KT and always had 2 grens near frontline, thats all. Lets look at scores

Me - 110 000
Dr. - 95 000
Kill - 60 000

Wurf - 90 000
Kuba - 60 000
Crimax was arround 45 000

So, enemies team played horrible ( couldnt kill a single arty sherman with their 1000 arty pieces for a very long time, so it finally got vet 4). Crimax was a guy who could end a game with every minute he wanted, just had to build 2 Panther G, then crash my single 76mm nest on right side and rush there with panthers and masses of grens = GG, but he only did some freaky things like atack with a single KT without support ( that was a hilarious moment twice, we spent 30 mins clearing the area from fortifications, finally captured territory and here came KT which forced us to be busy for 3 mins even by that stupid frontal rush without support, so, we were pushed back for a few mins.....when we returned there were 4 bunkers again, and we again spent 30 minutes for clearing this shit after what again came KT with a mad frontall rush, pushed us back for few mins and they rebuilt 4 bunkers again......stupidiest game ever).

And now, tell me, what we did wrong and what we didnt use? I wanted to go for howitzers in early game for preventing this heavy bunkers spam, but Wespe was already on field when i was just about to build a first one, so i decided not to feed Wespes with howitzers (easy target for motorized arty) and went for arty sherman. We tryed to use fucking everything that usa docs can suggest: airstrikes, smoke, satchels, tank captain arty call in, all fortifications, jumbos, howitzers with VT, heavy mortars VT, masses of rifles and 101s, supply drops, shermans, pershings,arty call ins, long tom, caliope, 75 mm howitzers..... we also had good teamplay and assaults were pretty coordinated ( smoke the area, atack with 101s together with jumbos and pershings, support this with 300 ammo and all kinds of arty call ins) we all helped each other all over the map, i built emplacemets for protecmting every point, kill was covering all map with his tanks, dr. was running with his airborne here and there like a wild one, i only heard clickclickclickclick in ts. So, we used all we could and played on all sides, enemies just played their sides without any good coordination: def player seats on fuel and building sim sity, wurf seats with all his arty and units near mortar bunker ( sometimes helping kuba with th's and repairing) crimax.....no idea, he just played with some grens and stuka. And! What i wanted to say here! This guys mostly didnt even use their doc to a 50%, just my thoughts during game:

- Wurf can use sabotags squad to desable our mid ammo point, our spawn in house near our base, sprint and destroy my vt howitzers with satchels
- Wurf can call 2 Hummels and use them with VT giving us even more terrible arty hell
- Wurf can use stormgrenadiers with fire nades against airborne


- Kuba can build flaks behind his bunkers ( in that case we will not be able to atack at all)
- Kuba can build 105mm howitzers backwards and use them with Vt giving us even more terrible arty hell
- Kuba can place some mobelwagens for preventing airstrikes
- Kuba can exploit our defence with at teams runs ( def bonuse makes them immortal)
- Kuba can build some heal bunkers for crimaxs grens healing


- Crimax can build 2 nebels and use them with Vt giving us even more terrible arty hell
- Crimax can combine 2 panthers with stuka for making absolutely deadly assaults
- Crimax can use firestrom against airborne
- Crimax can drop V1 on my arty sherman

And we used all....but nothing helped. Shitty balance. Even with VT, i have to used it at least 3 to destroy a single bunker. As for mortar bunker......LOL, we had a 40 min crusade for xestroiyng it, long tom, 3 vts, thunderbolds, armor player arty call in, many arty sherman barrages.

1 question to you wolf, why the fuck defence VT have 3 times longer activation range, reflects Grille, which do 5 bloody 150mm shots like hummel, when with inf VT i have to crawl right close to bunker, which always means recon loss, activate it, and not even a single shitty arty sherman will shoot there!!?? I had 3 howitzers and they needed 3-5 Vts for a single bunker....bullshit.

@Tiger
Ye, we had many fortifications in "insane game" but what alied building cant be destroyed with a 1-2 stuka, hummel, 210mm nebel, grille, hotchkiss, wespe barrages? And look here, destroyin a single bunker was always a very complicated deal. You also must take a fact that all alied fortifications exept 107mm mortar and 17p nests are pure shit, mgs are rushed frontally with grens, 1 nade and crew dead, 76mm nest is a joke and can only scratch german heavies, all other alied shit is just dieing with 2 arty hits.

Why we played withot RA? Because we tired of always the same ab+arty+tanks, its the only combo which allows to have enough of everything (elite inf, arty, fortifications, res drop, tanks and tank busters, air support). Funny fact here, you know when last time our team lost as axis? It was 3 months ago, Me, Dr, Mg42 lost to Veto, blitzToBitz and Tharkun ( who are probably the best alied team coming after us, with also ts/scype using), you can find replay on old forume. After that we didnt loose a single battle as axis, no matter what docs we played, some examples (i mean everything about 3v3 games)

- 3 pe, each player have dif doc
- def + 2 terror
- se + 2 bk
- luft + bk + terror
- double def + th
- th + terror + luft

and many others.....

Really doesnt matter, every mate just went to a doc which he wanted and all fine. Gameplay is absolutely different, when we play alies we are very concentrated, there is no even a minute of silence in Ts "help me here, there, i need res, help with tanks, help with recons, build me some def pls" ans etc., there is no a termin "my side" playing alies, because all have to be everywhere. When we play axis all just go their sides and we dont even talking about game, laughing or discussing somethinh life questions, joking and etc., nearly no teamplay. We many times tryed other doc combinations as alies, but it always was god damn hard, or fail like here. With old combo we have something like 95% win rate and it simply became boring, cause we always argueing who will play airborne, as its the only fun doc, with tanks and arty is always the same scenario, one half of game seats with a couple of units and upgrading supply yard, second just build fortifications and shooting with priests from a save distance. But even though, people learnt much and last 2 times warhawks with his team was very close to victory. Finally we nearly stopped play axis because nobody plays with us in this case (warhawks, maeglin, great, yummy, blitzkrieger, wurf and etc.) they always want only as axis vs us, thats it.

Nothing to add here. Playing axis requires some more concentration only when trying a rush. Playing saftey is mostly just trolling arround, boring etc. Nobody needs to help a mate or only sometimes when an allied team starts an attack together. Everybody has everything in every doc do defend and attack all stuff the enemie can cat. The only real challange is when i play with some players (without TS and attack coordination) against SVT team with TS and defensive and offensive coordination and even then only luck saved their game when their 57 mm which has usually a boucne rate of 99% against Tank IV´s made 4 pen hits in a row or when our Luft player just blobbed his regiment 5 and losing them all to single arty shell or firenade instea keep skirmishing the enemie with reg 5 and Gebirgs combo.

And its simply bullshit that Allis can actually only play with AB, armor, Arty combo in very good coordination when axis are just some uncoordinated average trolls using their docs not at their maximum and just doing stupid frontal rushes on HMGs etc.

And the defense is kinda crazy. A single bunker for 550 mp (which can be build in all docs) or 450 mp in def doc requires VT of 3- 5 howitzer to crack it while 350 mp mg nests or 425mp/40 fuel emplacment get cracked by a single 150 shell or single 105 savlo.



The game before that i played with sukin and i just trolled the enemie with JP´s. I send IV/70 to fight against SAS, ran with IV/70 straight into hellcat ambush and Hellcat and succeeded killing the Hellcat. Later driving with Jagpanthers into enemie base and showing the rear to Bazookas which could do a shit still and double Hellcats failing from point blanc against the JP and after 5 pens of zooks, hellcat etc my JP was still alive and Zimmert was not even upgraded at that time.


Playing axis is simply kinda boring bullshit and makes only fun when doing a rush or when playing against SVT when trying a rush.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Ah, what i wanted to say also Wolf. "On 31 min you could win because you rushed good and had many res". Ha ha ha man, stop kidding, how we could rush through there? We atacked together with dr. without Kill (because Kill have no atacking units lol, this is a standart situation when armor doc player just seats with 2 Hellcats and couple of inf units spending all res to supply yard, even though, by that moment he didnt collect enough cp even for a jumbo, so, really, with what he could help us? Shermans? Naaaah, even my jumbos were dieing like flies in this game, using simple shermans means a waste of res only) so, we had a good moment for rush, but hadnt units of third player because he didnt know what to build here, thats why we atacked with 2 only and what happend? 1 arty shell nearly completely killed 2 squads of 101s, other 2 was insta supressed by fixed scout car, all inf retreated, without inf support 1 jumbo was knocked out by schrecks immidiately, second one i retreated and saved. Together with this atack i used arty call in and sherman barrage ( 200 ammo) which killed 1 howitzer and some inf. And ye, we had many res, especialy me, but how i could spend it? I had 2 snipers, 2 jumbo, arty sherman and fortifications, 1800 mp in reserve but no use, build inf for atack? - no, it will be insta supressed with mg42/scout car and then smashed by arty....no more than free exp for wespes. shermans? - no of course. more fortifications? - i many times tryed to follow our atacks with building them near front line, but 1 was destroyed faster than i could build a second one, finally i droped this idea about "going step by step with emplacements" and was building them only backwards, in save area from arty. Why dr. didnt use airstrikes? - he simply didnt unlock them by that moment. Thats why i actually did an only smart decision here - invested this 1800mp to 3 howitzers at the corner for vt + bought 2 at teams for having something against started ths spam. So, where is the moment here when we "nearly won"?

[Krieger Blitzer]

I agree most of Sukin's points but.. u guys very well introduced the issues considering this, however that neither any of u actually offered any real solutions for them!

"A single bunker for 550 mp (which can be build in all docs) or 450 mp in def doc requires VT of 3- 5 howitzer to crack it while 350 mp mg nests or 425mp/40 fuel emplacment get cracked by a single 150 shell or single 105 savlo."
Well, on the other hand.. a single Mortar or a 17P emplacement in fact is in need of or requires at least about 5 rounds to be fired by 2 Maultiers costing 85 ammo per each round in order for those magical emplacements to be finally totally erased. So generally Maultiers are simply a waste of ammo against almost all Allies fortifications!
But when u tell me as a reply 'And why to even use Maultiers against them, why not to just use Storm Troops or Stuhs?!' I will then answer u with the same logic saying 'And why not to use CW Arty doc against Bunkers?!' Oh is it because now u r getting bored of using it??!! Really?! Well again if yes then with the same logic I would reply this saying 'And I am getting bored of using Storm Troops!! I need to just quickly or immediately erase those emplacements with Maultiers!!!'
Bullshit -_-

If Bunkers were really that tough without CW arty doc, then it's simply their own mistake as that no one of them did choose it! They could have won using CW arty...
I mean.. if we make Bunkers with less HP cause u can't kill them without Brits Arty doc, then they won't stand a chance against CW Arty and they will become easily beatable by all other kinds of artillery in a result. And if we make 17P emplacements with less HP cause Maultiers can't kill them, then they won't stand a chance against SE Arty or against any other means of killing them as well! Got my point??!! So stop these pointless discussions or just offer clear logical suggestions if u have any.

[Warhawks97]

I agree most of Sukin's points but.. u guys very well introduced the issues considering this, however that neither any of u actually offered any real solutions for them!

"A single bunker for 550 mp (which can be build in all docs) or 450 mp in def doc requires VT of 3- 5 howitzer to crack it while 350 mp mg nests or 425mp/40 fuel emplacment get cracked by a single 150 shell or single 105 savlo."
Well, on the other hand.. a single Mortar or a 17P emplacement in fact is in need of or requires at least about 5 rounds to be fired by 2 Maultiers costing 85 ammo per each round in order for those magical emplacements to be finally totally erased. So generally Maultiers are simply a waste of ammo against almost all Allies fortifications!
But when u tell me as a reply 'And why to even use Maultiers against them, why not to just use Storm Troops or Stuhs?!' I will then answer u with the same logic saying 'And why not to use CW Arty doc against Bunkers?!' Oh is it because now u r getting bored of using it??!! Really?! Well again if yes then with the same logic I would reply this saying 'And I am getting bored of using Storm Troops!! I need to just quickly or immediately erase those emplacements with Maultiers!!!'
Bullshit -_-

If Bunkers were really that tough without CW arty doc, then it's simply their own mistake as that no one of them did choose it! They could have won using CW arty...
I mean.. if we make Bunkers with less HP cause u can't kill them without Brits Arty doc, then they won't stand a chance against CW Arty and they will become easily beatable by all other kinds of artillery in a result. And if we make 17P emplacements with less HP cause Maultiers can't kill them, then they won't stand a chance against SE Arty or against any other means of killing them as well! Got my point??!! So stop these pointless discussions or just offer clear logical suggestions if u have any.

you dont get the point. As axis you can pretty much mix up the docs however you want. Everybody can get everything needed to stay and win on your lane. I mean you can easily double docs what we sometimes do just for fun and it keeps pretty easy. Late game axis inf which got vet overuns standard defenses like HMGs like nothing. They are lile a tsunami wave roling over the map and to stop that a nice amount of units is simply neccessary. Mostly HE shermans, snipers and inf squads. At the other side: Put HMg42, put scout car and you dont need to care about enemie infantry. Mortar emplacment is not that often used due to the nice "camping preventation measures". Before i get one heavy 107 mm mortar neblers and even walking stukas sometimes. So before you can build a 107 mm mortar you need a stable defense. Unlike axis that have stable defense with HMg and 50 mm pak allied do need at best a sniper, HE sherman, HMG and 76 mm pak. First then 107 mm mortar do make sense. inf that rushes over the field without being somehow stopped by friendly units a mortar makes little sense.


What i would actually expect is that some more allied docs would have some better camping preventation units. I mean srsly, a nebler, walking stuka, 210 nebler etc are pretty effective camping preventation units and walking stuka and esspecially 210 nebler very good against heaviest defenses and all relatively cheap and for 0 cp. And a calli?`somtimes able to kill one weapon crew but often enough fails to kill a stupid pak crew. And cost so many CP, limited to 1, cost twice that of a walking stuka or 210 nebler by shooting for same cost as those? hmmm..




From the current point how wolf explained it i cant really get how it is supposed to work. He says for example that US is supposed to get stronger over time with supply yard and that shermans and 76 shermans coming more and more over time but never at once and never as early as Tank IV´s and that tank IV´s can be fielded in groups easily should be also correct. Means basically that for the longest time allied need to stay in a defense before they have enough stuff to crack the early tank IV domination theoretically but practically there is also enemie defensive stuff which or they have to wait for mistakes of enemie tank IV´s and actually also from enemie TH´s and marders before they can do a step toward axis base. But at the same time axis get much earlier arty even before allied get stuff to take on the Tank IV´s offensively. So their defense get crushed right before there is a chance even to get into a real offense against the def+tank IV mix.


So in my opinion the domination of Tank IV´s is lasting simply too long. Also early game arty and camping preventation is in disbalance then.


And Btw: This "allied get mor over time" is not true for tanks. Within 40 mins i could build just 1 HE sherman, 2 76 and 2 Hellcats. Max possible to field was 3 tanks at the same time then income dropped too hard although i had booth fuel incomes up already. I had 1 Jumbo, 1 Hellcat and thats all for a long time, later one more HE sherman. In that Time my opponent had 5 tanks IV´s sometimes at the same time + nice AT inf and at least 13 tank IV´s and 3 Tigers over time if not more. So instant quantity and over time quantity was in axis favour (no need for res trade even except for the last tiger). The basic income was equal. Booth had a 9 fuel point but i had fuel buffs and he had one more+9 fuel point. I also had mostly only call in jumbo and calli while he build most of his tanks.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, I guess that's exactly why I managed and suggested with u and others for this new coming patch. Let's see how it is going to work better as hoped!

But again as I said.. u keep explaining by typing walls of texts while giving absolutely no ideas of any solutions, if u have any more clear suggestions for the next 4.86 update to be added on the list then just quickly tell about them without speaking too much! But keep in mind that sadly there are limits as probably the player Meat mentioned above...

[Wolf]

I would just pointlessly repeat what was already said, but whatever. You are not supposed to destroy bunkers with xyz howitzers, offmap arty or whatever. It is possible, but it takes a lot of arty, so its doable, its not supposed to be easy by arty. Thats why bunkers resistance against satchels was lowered, thats why I was against perma MGs in bunkers, because you should be able to flame them out - these are the REAL solutions, not "unlimit arty, so we can bomb the shit out of bunkers", which wouldn't even work in this case I believe, especially without VT, arty would be just used to other things, which can be now too. You said, that you did focus your fire a lot on bunkers... why not rather on stuff which covered it? So you could then use smoke for example, demolitions/satchels. Empty bunker then isn't such a problem. Dunno what games warhawks played before (but we will surely hear another story about that one game), but with unlimited arty, more expensive howitzers, no VT and perma mg bunkers everywhere, he is trying to tell me, that it was no problem for inf doc before? Back when no VT was there, you STILL had to build howitzers in range, but now you can't build them, because they would be easily destroyed... so wtf? Again, suddenly instead of crying how 2 nebels are not enough, because they can't break defense and suddenly, in other big paragraph, you are basically saying that axis have no problem with any defense, so why the cry over 2 nebels? Same like before it was all okay, but now suddenly, because you can build "only" 4 howitzers, its a problem? So you would build how many ? 6 ? In range, so they would be bombarded by wespes as you said. Then you would get 300 munnitions at once, to destroy what? Nothing. I just don't buy these arguments from you.

To summarize, bunkers are to be destroyed by: satchels, demolitions, AVRE and important - not even allow them to be built, to which you CAN use arty, which you had, even if it should be airborne mortar offmap / inf howitzers / armor calli / airborne jeeps. You can destroy them with arty too, but it will and should take time/resources, thats why its recommended to use these resources to bomb OTHER things, which are defending it and then for example with help of smoke, to use primary means to destroy them. Calliope and calli jeeps are primarily used to deny area from inf (calli mostly) and to REVEAL where is hidden stuff, which is also pretty often heavily damaged, if not destroyed. You certainly should not use calli against single armored target, like it was also seen.

I also don't understand - warhawks, why you don't use mortars even in later phases of the game, especially 81mm one. And for smokes it doesn't even have to be close. It might be often decrewed, but usually can be recrewed multiple times. And even if not used somewhat great, it is favourite arty target - arty can't shoot on something else meanwhile.

I don't think that you played bad sukin, however look at it closely:
18th minute:
Allies:
dr zhivago 1513 MP (+328), 293 munni (+42), 131 fuel(+31)
polar bear 1328 MP (+320), 279 munni (+42), 63 fuel(+23)
sukin 755 MP (+293), 129 munni (+42), 272 fuel(+31)
Axis:
Wurf 99 MP (+312), 315 (+36), 182 (+26)
kuba 185 MP (+298), 352 (+36), 278 (+27)
crimax 352 MP (+288), 97 (+46), 323 (+27)

Dont tell me, that you couldn't do anything with that much MP against especially the bottom of the map. I am talking about team, not you personally. Even if it would be one scout from somebody, to just watch that 1 MG and 1 50mm at gun is there. Placed in the way that maybe even one calli jeep would deal with it... or simply mortar. You had 3k+ MP combined, how is that different from another warhawks story, when he told us, how axis are usually afraid to send more PZIV than one. That is imho exactly the same problem like in that 31 minute, where yeah, you had jumbos, but dont tell me, that even 2 bloody shermans would not help you, even if it would be only so your jumbos would survive longer. That said MG and AT zhivago spotted and killed (so MG wasn't invincible or whatever) in 22nd minute. Then even the AT gun got hit, 2 scout cars were closest enemy, stuff even maybe one sherman would be able to deal with. Air guy could drop off 101st somewhere near their munni point too, area was clear. Yeah, sure, I can't be general after the battle, however when you are telling us that you tried all, then its simply not true, there is always something to try, to learn, to risk. All I am saying is, that especially from 20-40 minute, it clearly wasn't axis won game. Even if you were not to try something like that, why to keep 1500+ MP and not buy IDK.. a sniper?, to get out of that MG42? One more scout to get bottom covered?

When you tried that attack, which I consider just really wasted chance, like I wrote in previous post, you were swarming with resources, both zhivago and polar had munnition cap. Why not to have atleast that command vehicle + 1-2 shermans? Your jumbos dealt with AT gun, with MG, with AT squad. I'd say success.. but then, 82nd went without zooks into scout car, why? Hellcat went full forward, why?? Just watch 32-35 minute, that was clearly wasted opportunity, it could be totally different just if the 82nd had zooks, scout car and maybe even that marder would be gone. While I must say that you played good the whole match, I think you failed in most critical moments, by you I don't mean your personally, but you as a team, there was always some bit missing, you didn't see what was where because lack of scout, or calli strike came after the attack etc.

In 45 minute again, pretty nice attack, this time on upper part of the map, but why didn't calli come first, as prefire to find out AT gun and deny inf from the area? What left? One main-gun destroyed marder, one 3 man at squad, two scout cars and medic ht, ah, and some AT gun, which again, spotted eariler, could be long time gone or atleast decrewed. You don't think, that you had pretty good chance to destroy these scout cars there? If one additional unit was there?

I will again repeat myself, but having 2 inf based doctrines on map, where you fight primarily on open field even with water cross, practically one resource away from enemy base... of course that scout cars/bunkers/mgs will give you hell and it will be hard. Especially when on noodle map one mortar bunker in the middle can cover about all ways in. Playing US is hard and always was on these kind of situations, but in more city based maps, I think inf and airborne docs are in advantage. You choose to pickup only US, that alone is hard, playing US is harder than other doctrines and on map which is not considered very "inf friendly".

Some of your other attack were also good, but it always missed the little bit, or KT came etc. However its definitely what warhawks tried to tell us by this, that the arty should be unlimited? Naah, thats clearly not what is seen in this game.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Thumbs up +1 to Wolf here ^^ Both sides could have actually done a lot much more than this mess All KTs were wasted so stupidly as well as some Pershings too btw...

[Warhawks97]

Ok, def doc is supposed to stand very long with bunkers and US is somehow lacking power to crack such stuff and only very well experienced players with combo of smoke, satchels combined with tanks can deal with it. But how does it look when WE faces lets say some heavier inf doc defenses or RE defenses? Those are relatively easy cracked. Grilles, actually endless arty units for def which 88´s have arty barrage (i thought you wanted to remove it btw) and grille or stupas. Terror walking stukas and in some cases cleaning an area of defenses with a single V1 drop. And KT can overrun any US defense with KT anyway. Bk doc.... assault squads, stuhs or simply a nice Tank battle group assault together.


The question is still in the room: why need US players be kind of experienced experts using teamplay and knowlegde of how to combine stuff to crack a stronger defense which practically every newbie can provide while at the other side it doesnt need so many skills and teamplay to crack heavier allied defense. Does it mean that US and allied is more or less exclusively for expert teamplayers with TS or somehow nice teamplay while axis is pretty well even when playing "solo"? Why can i carry a newbie without pvp experience as axis through a game while i am simply fucked up when there is just one doctrine mistake in allied doc or not even to mention a newbie in team.


In the past to days i played with very good players on allied side against some kind of newbies and we almost lost. Am i noob now? But then i played just in my last game with a guy without any pvp experience which was afk in the first 5 min beofre building barracks and then took further 1 min untill he did read all unit descriptions and decided what to build. My other mate was an axis only player with just a few games. And at the enemie team old bk players like maeglin and those which almost killed me when they had axis. Still i could rush them pretty well. And when my mate on one side got pushed back by combat engieers and rifles i send schwimmwagen and one burst killed 4 combat engineers and the other two during retreat and shortly after the 4 rifle men behind cover and schwimmwagen prevented flank collapse of a mate. Then i helped my mate on the right side with 50 mm pak and grens rushing an MG. I then waited for two tank IV´s with TH doc and rushed the entire inf doc army right into their base, overruning 57 mm pak, then killing his entire army in his base and then escaped from 76 mm pak. I lost one Tank IV to arty strike but two new came and i once again overruned an ambushed 76 mm US pak which bounced 4 times from my Tank IV and when his teammate tried to help with Jumbo ive got IV/70 quickly. Sadly it ended in sync error or something like that.


In short: players like divSS and others are hard opponents when i play with experienced alli players but then i rush two of them alone when those play allis. And that is happening so often. So am i or we always noobs when we play allis and enemies pros? or are we mega pros as axis coz we rush such players in 15 mins? idk... maybe you can tell me.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

You said, that you did focus your fire a lot on bunkers... why not rather on stuff which covered it?

Did i? Arty sherman got arround 100 kills and 7 vehicles, means i mostly shot exactly units, not bunkers. Arty call in also always on units. On bunkers i used only VT, that was the only real thing which i can did with howitzers (having 3 of them on save distance), if i tryed to build them closer they were immidiately exploded by Grille or Wespe (without limit i could have 3 Howitzers backwards for VT and couple of howitzers near front, shooting with them in short moments when enemie arty is off).

So you could then use smoke for example, demolitions/satchels. Empty bunker then isn't such a problem.

We used satchels and smoke. Empty bunker is a still problem, it works like reacon and all your vehicles auto fire it, so when enemie comes your tank usually on cool down, because recently it shot to an empty bunker.

Dont tell me, that you couldn't do anything with that much MP against especially the bottom of the map. I am talking about team, not you personally. Even if it would be one scout from somebody, to just watch that 1 MG and 1 50mm at gun is there. Placed in the way that maybe even one calli jeep would deal with it... or simply mortar. You had 3k+ MP combined, how is that different from another warhawks story, when he told us, how axis are usually afraid to send more PZIV than one. That is imho exactly the same problem like in that 31 minute, where yeah, you had jumbos, but dont tell me, that even 2 bloody shermans would not help you, even if it would be only so your jumbos would survive longer. That said MG and AT zhivago spotted and killed (so MG wasn't invincible or whatever) in 22nd minute. Then even the AT gun got hit, 2 scout cars were closest enemy, stuff even maybe one sherman would be able to deal with. Air guy could drop off 101st somewhere near their munni point too, area was clear. Yeah, sure, I can't be general after the battle, however when you are telling us that you tried all, then its simply not true, there is always something to try, to learn, to risk. All I am saying is, that especially from 20-40 minute, it clearly wasn't axis won game. Even if you were not to try something like that, why to keep 1500+ MP and not buy IDK.. a sniper?, to get out of that MG42? One more scout to get bottom covered?

When you tried that attack, which I consider just really wasted chance, like I wrote in previous post, you were swarming with resources, both zhivago and polar had munnition cap. Why not to have atleast that command vehicle + 1-2 shermans? Your jumbos dealt with AT gun, with MG, with AT squad. I'd say success.. but then, 82nd went without zooks into scout car, why? Hellcat went full forward, why?? Just watch 32-35 minute, that was clearly wasted opportunity, it could be totally different just if the 82nd had zooks, scout car and maybe even that marder would be gone. While I must say that you played good the whole match, I think you failed in most critical moments, by you I don't mean your personally, but you as a team, there was always some bit missing, you didn't see what was where because lack of scout, or calli strike came after the attack etc.

In 45 minute again, pretty nice attack, this time on upper part of the map, but why didn't calli come first, as prefire to find out AT gun and deny inf from the area? What left? One main-gun destroyed marder, one 3 man at squad, two scout cars and medic ht, ah, and some AT gun, which again, spotted eariler, could be long time gone or atleast decrewed. You don't think, that you had pretty good chance to destroy these scout cars there? If one additional unit was there?

This words are only prooving that alies must have even more decent teamplay for having a good chances in rush.


But ok, tiger is right and time for suggestions, i think it is obvious for everyone that arty balance is messed up. My ideas:

-CW arty will no longer can use endless VT having several recce's (Recce's will share cooldown between each other)
-Inf doc will require 1 CP point for howitzer unlock ( 2 CP arty call in> 1 CP howitzer), 1 additional CP goes to m4a3 unlock (jumbo will require 2 CP instead 1 in that way)
-Inf doc will get similar VT as Defence one, with long activation range + Arty sherman included to barrage.
-USA Inf and Armor docs will be able to build 75mm howitzer in motorpool without any CPs required.
-Airborne howitzer\pak drop cost 1 CP instead 2, additional CP goes to Mortar call in unlock with transforming it from 60mm to a 81mm barrage.
- Calliope cost drop to 700 MP, 1 CP instead 2, additional point goes to a Ace/SP unlock ( will be 4 instead 3)

- SE will get a wespe tree fix: 1 CP barricades > 2 CP 120 mm mortar (will unlock mortar bunker and heavy mortar crew) > 2 CP Wespe
- 210 mm nebel will require a Armor company building upgrade first (this one which cost 60 fuel if im not mistaken)
- Walking stuka for terror will be available only after Heavy tank factory deployed and upgraded.
- No more nebels limit for terror doc


What we will get with all this changes? All sides will have early weak arty, which will be deployed in case if opponents are preparing for heavy camping ( 75 mm howitzer, nebels, rocker jeep, leig 7.5, maultiers, 75mm Autocar, mortar call in ).

A bit later arty domination for a while goes to stationaty howitzers, def and inf will need 3 CP for them, so this howitzers will be the earliest high calibre arty.

And later, in case if you still couldnt prevent crazy defence, comes motorized heavy arty (5 CP priest\wespe, 6 CP Grille, 6 CP Hummel, 4 CP arty sherman, walking stuka and 210 nebel which will come later with this changes)

With this conditions arty parties will happen only if both teams are dumb campers and went for example cw arty + inf + sappers VS def + SE + terror. In other cases both sides will be able to crash through early def stuff with their early non CP but weak arty. Heavy artillery will be available after middle game stage and will be used against inf blobs\structuries\tanks, not just like now "stuka and Wespe comes before first stationary Howitzer and crashing some 57mm paks and rifles only"

What do you think guys? Wolf?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Hmm, finally I can see some clear ideas or suggestions offered... Well, for me; I don't mind any of these points since I think they are also still only about cost and availability changes without contradictions of the previous suggested demands neither with exceeding coded limits of what the game allowing and provides! But I guess that US Armor doc heavy AT mines shouldn't then require one less CP as currently modified already on the list.. is that's what u mean right now Sukin?

[Wolf]

I can agree with some CP changes, but I dislike solving stuff by additional adding arty, even light. What exactky do you expect to happen? Yeah, that there will be even more arty in every part of the game. Even if not from you as a "pros", everybody else will just go for arty and we will have kind of early arty fests. What are you trying to solve early? And how its now? You have problems with MG42s covered with PAKs? So we will simplify it to "build arty" again? These are especially the situations, where Axis have advantage on open field. But yet you have ways to solve it, by mortars, scout/snipers, depending on PAK even some vehicles, SMOKE, on good maps just way around. So what is that "early camping" that requires yet ADDITIONAL arty?
I totally don't understand for example, why terror should have unlimited nebels, when you just said, that axis have absolutely no problem with cracking any allied defences. Exactly as I said that arty is not to be primarily used against bunkers, nebels are not to be used as "vt to destroy emplacements at once".
About howitzers I was primarily arguing with warhawks, you said that if they were unlimited, you could have built 3 for VT + some on the front. I was arguing that there wasn't VT before (when warhawks said like it was all awesome before when it was unlimited, trying to prove something?), so you would have to build them all on front, even for higher price and then get even more munnition, to fire them all at once.
You are constantly trying to tell me, that by having more arty, people will use more normal ways of attack or what? Maybe in your games, but I can assure you that 80% of other games will turn to - every US player will build atleast 2 howitzers, which he will use all the time - more arty. 105 Sherman included in VT, VT on more range - more arty, sniper there? Arty, MG here? Arty... so everything will again be "solved" by arty. Exactly the thing, we wanted to avoid. Mortars are supposed to be early non-direct combat anti-camping stuff, not another arty.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Arty fest exists only when masses of heavy mototized arty pieces are on field, a couple of nebels/75mm never able to kill something more than mg/pak crew and some basic inf. What i expect? I expect early tactical arty for mgs and paks destroying available in all docs, just light arty which will be used smartly, on the other hand all highly destructive arty pieces will be delayed.

Smoke, scouts, snipers, flanking.......ok, but why it reflects only alied side, when as axis everything like you said "i just build arty".

Purpose if my post was to suggest how to balance arty between sides, because you cant argue that axis have good enough arty in all docs when alies have none or have only for CP.

[Warhawks97]

You said, that you did focus your fire a lot on bunkers... why not rather on stuff which covered it?

Did i? Arty sherman got arround 100 kills and 7 vehicles, means i mostly shot exactly units, not bunkers. Arty call in also always on units. On bunkers i used only VT, that was the only real thing which i can did with howitzers (having 3 of them on save distance), if i tryed to build them closer they were immidiately exploded by Grille or Wespe (without limit i could have 3 Howitzers backwards for VT and couple of howitzers near front, shooting with them in short moments when enemie arty is off).

So you could then use smoke for example, demolitions/satchels. Empty bunker then isn't such a problem.

We used satchels and smoke. Empty bunker is a still problem, it works like reacon and all your vehicles auto fire it, so when enemie comes your tank usually on cool down, because recently it shot to an empty bunker.

Dont tell me, that you couldn't do anything with that much MP against especially the bottom of the map. I am talking about team, not you personally. Even if it would be one scout from somebody, to just watch that 1 MG and 1 50mm at gun is there. Placed in the way that maybe even one calli jeep would deal with it... or simply mortar. You had 3k+ MP combined, how is that different from another warhawks story, when he told us, how axis are usually afraid to send more PZIV than one. That is imho exactly the same problem like in that 31 minute, where yeah, you had jumbos, but dont tell me, that even 2 bloody shermans would not help you, even if it would be only so your jumbos would survive longer. That said MG and AT zhivago spotted and killed (so MG wasn't invincible or whatever) in 22nd minute. Then even the AT gun got hit, 2 scout cars were closest enemy, stuff even maybe one sherman would be able to deal with. Air guy could drop off 101st somewhere near their munni point too, area was clear. Yeah, sure, I can't be general after the battle, however when you are telling us that you tried all, then its simply not true, there is always something to try, to learn, to risk. All I am saying is, that especially from 20-40 minute, it clearly wasn't axis won game. Even if you were not to try something like that, why to keep 1500+ MP and not buy IDK.. a sniper?, to get out of that MG42? One more scout to get bottom covered?

When you tried that attack, which I consider just really wasted chance, like I wrote in previous post, you were swarming with resources, both zhivago and polar had munnition cap. Why not to have atleast that command vehicle + 1-2 shermans? Your jumbos dealt with AT gun, with MG, with AT squad. I'd say success.. but then, 82nd went without zooks into scout car, why? Hellcat went full forward, why?? Just watch 32-35 minute, that was clearly wasted opportunity, it could be totally different just if the 82nd had zooks, scout car and maybe even that marder would be gone. While I must say that you played good the whole match, I think you failed in most critical moments, by you I don't mean your personally, but you as a team, there was always some bit missing, you didn't see what was where because lack of scout, or calli strike came after the attack etc.

In 45 minute again, pretty nice attack, this time on upper part of the map, but why didn't calli come first, as prefire to find out AT gun and deny inf from the area? What left? One main-gun destroyed marder, one 3 man at squad, two scout cars and medic ht, ah, and some AT gun, which again, spotted eariler, could be long time gone or atleast decrewed. You don't think, that you had pretty good chance to destroy these scout cars there? If one additional unit was there?

This words are only prooving that alies must have even more decent teamplay for having a good chances in rush.


But ok, tiger is right and time for suggestions, i think it is obvious for everyone that arty balance is messed up. My ideas:

-CW arty will no longer can use endless VT having several recce's (Recce's will share cooldown between each other)
-Inf doc will require 1 CP point for howitzer unlock ( 2 CP arty call in> 1 CP howitzer), 1 additional CP goes to m4a3 unlock (jumbo will require 2 CP instead 1 in that way)
-Inf doc will get similar VT as Defence one, with long activation range + Arty sherman included to barrage.
-USA Inf and Armor docs will be able to build 75mm howitzer in motorpool without any CPs required.
-Airborne howitzer\pak drop cost 1 CP instead 2, additional CP goes to Mortar call in unlock with transforming it from 60mm to a 81mm barrage.
- Calliope cost drop to 700 MP, 1 CP instead 2, additional point goes to a Ace/SP unlock ( will be 4 instead 3)

- SE will get a wespe tree fix: 1 CP barricades > 2 CP 120 mm mortar (will unlock mortar bunker and heavy mortar crew) > 2 CP Wespe
- 210 mm nebel will require a Armor company building upgrade first (this one which cost 60 fuel if im not mistaken)
- Walking stuka for terror will be available only after Heavy tank factory deployed and upgraded.
- No more nebels limit for terror doc


What we will get with all this changes? All sides will have early weak arty, which will be deployed in case if opponents are preparing for heavy camping ( 75 mm howitzer, nebels, rocker jeep, leig 7.5, maultiers, 75mm Autocar, mortar call in ).

A bit later arty domination for a while goes to stationaty howitzers, def and inf will need 3 CP for them, so this howitzers will be the earliest high calibre arty.

And later, in case if you still couldnt prevent crazy defence, comes motorized heavy arty (5 CP priest\wespe, 6 CP Grille, 6 CP Hummel, 4 CP arty sherman, walking stuka and 210 nebel which will come later with this changes)

With this conditions arty parties will happen only if both teams are dumb campers and went for example cw arty + inf + sappers VS def + SE + terror. In other cases both sides will be able to crash through early def stuff with their early non CP but weak arty. Heavy artillery will be available after middle game stage and will be used against inf blobs\structuries\tanks, not just like now "stuka and Wespe comes before first stationary Howitzer and crashing some 57mm paks and rifles only"

What do you think guys? Wolf?

yes, yes, yes.... maybe someone will listen now. Thats what i am saying quite often: early weak arty for all sides and more docs instead only for axis and CW arty! I tought about Pack howitzer for AB buidlable in motorpool and airdrop with CP for better late game flexibility and also to inf doc in motorpool without supply yard required coming as early as neblers and like 350/25. Calli jeep to armor as the pack howitzer might be too slow for this doctrine. Calli jeep can advance faster with tanks together... just a tought here.

About CP of calli:Long time ago i somewhere asked about the sense that calli as arty unit requires Jumbo which is a breakthough battletank. It would make more sense to be able to choose which to unlock first after sherman mass production. Jumbo or calli. About Cp´s i would then add some to SP and take away some from the allied war machinery. This ability could drop also from 250 ammo to 175 ammo but therfore replacing no pershings because this ability makes only sense when losing a persh ace which comes with gunsight upgrades etc by default. Replacing two HE shermans for 250 ammo which then need 150 more ammo for HE upgrade and activation which is then 400 ammo and thus a huge waste of res. Excluding persh replacment by this ability by making it a lot cheaper could help that players would to some attacks with quantity and using the advantages of quantity gameplay.


210 neblers and walking stukas i agree. The 210 comes pretty fast and knocks out pretty uch everything in a single shot (tanks, emplacments etc).


with howitzers it that waht sukin said and me too just that he did it a way better. Cheaper cost do not help when its still forbidden to get enough of them, (my sherman vs tiger example). Having some more howitzers could allow usefull VT but also some howitzers moving together with frontlines but also able to have a chance against movable arty. Like when one howitzer is knocked out by enemie movable arty another one or twi can then immediatly counter the movable. Now when having two for VT and two near front those its impossible to stand a fight with movable howitzer pieces.


Wespe CP: I often that that 3 CP is very low. Irrc in old versions 120 mm mortar was required to unlock mortar bunker and wespe unlock came with Hummel. I would here in this case support sukin so far just slightly different (maybe). Would be roadblocks -> Mineliar->Mortar Bunker and 120 mm mortar. And then Sector arty->Wespe->Hummel->ammo HT upgrade. But then Hummels+Wespe would come very fast maybe, idk. Sukins idea is pretty cool. Mortar bunker earlier avaialble but allied would have to prevent the production with light arty. 3CP mortar Bunker without early allied arty shouldnt be done. Booth or nothing.



and no more limits on neblers is also supported. Right now they are usefull in eary game as they are the first arty but suck in late game as VT isnt powerfull anymore with only two neblers. To prevent VT overuse increase cost to VT standard of 75 ammo. That way VT would make sense when having like 4 or 5 nebler but therfore able to punch a whole into enemie defense. The early nebler domination would be balanced with earlier pack howitzers.


Also what i want to beg is: Do something with US lottery/random guns. That would help a lot in gameplay if i could be more certain for what i can use my guns. In my last games 57 mm AT with basic rounds penetrated tank IV 4 times in a row. Then It pened tank IV with basic AP but failed with special AP rounds. Then e8 penetraed tiger 3 times with basic rounds but HVAP failed twice from close distant against IV/70. Then 76 mm failed 5 times vs Tank IV even from close range. Then Hellcat oneshots Tank IV with basic ap but bounced with HVAP in another situation. So what the heck are the stats of these 57 and 76 mm guns? Their results are far away form any realistic stats and also incredible hard to estimate even. I mean as other sample Hellcat onsehots Panther with HVAP and ambush. Then 76 and M10 with HVAP and command vehicle command assault boni failed to kill a Panther and 76 and M10 were shooting from several sdies from very close distant.

I mean luck happens to all sometimes like when 50 mm killed sandbaged e8 with 3 hits from ambush while 75 failed to pen twice. Note i do not talk about luck how fast a unit dies because this is sometimes just hilaroius. I am just talking about chance to penetrate. As axis and CW i do know usually when i need special AP rounds and when not but US guns are so freaking random and lottery like. It doesnt really helps the gameplay if a player never knows what he actually builds and has ("Elephant killer or Tank IV or despair")


Wolf: "I can agree with some CP changes, but I dislike solving stuff by additional adding arty, even light. What exactky do you expect to happen? Yeah, that there will be even more arty in every part of the game. Even if not from you as a "pros", everybody else will just go for arty and we will have kind of early arty fests. What are you trying to solve early? And how its now? You have problems with MG42s covered with PAKs? So we will simplify it to "build arty" again? These are especially the situations, where Axis have advantage on open field. But yet you have ways to solve it, by mortars, scout/snipers, depending on PAK even some vehicles, SMOKE, on good maps just way around. So what is that "early camping" that requires yet ADDITIONAL arty?"


LOL. What do you think axis are doing all the time? They know exactly that they have arty early without fearing enemie arty: result: 1-2 scout cars+ HMG and 2-3 37 and 50 mm paks but bombing a single allied HMG with nebler...... There are really points where i run first into 37 mm pak, HMG and 50 mm pak and i somewhow manage to kill it by losing at best as rifle or ranger squad. Then I think ive got all and get more units and vehicles and what then? scout car + another 50 mm pak!


I had two games with loki and timay/ursus doing a very good early game without CW arty rushing like 70% of the map with very good teamplay and use of jeeps and rifles and risking playing without 37 mm pak. But then A SINGLE PE player produced 5 fucking 50 mm paks. One covered by his last remainig scout vehicle, the others saved by his mates with their final bikes and HMGs. And we as allied could do a shit then (we tried mortar but wasnt really successfull and we also had to prepare for counter attacks of grens and AT squads) untill timay in first and loki in second game could drop his pack howitzer after 4 silly CP and untill ursus got the silly arty churchill which requirs also like 4 or more CP´s. Untill that time enemie got some grens with terror doc and AT squads going for counter attacks hunting the arty churchills etc. When i do play as axis and facing the first 17 pounder i simply ask my terror mate like sukin for nebelwerfer, prob solved, game won.


So if you dont want early arty then PLS, let neblers require tank factory+ FHQ, walking stukas etc for CP´s and so on such as allied do. But do you know what is going to happen then? Correct: WW1 scenario pure with booth sides producing paks and HMgs etc faster as the few fucking Mortars can kill them! + you need to detect them all first which results in a pure reccon fight sometimes. Do you want that half of the produced and lost solider are reccons? lol. Untill one side has killed all paks and HMGs with a motar the enemie will have choosen a crazy arty doc and simply smashing mortars and defenses easily and all the nasty effort with reccons and mortars are for nothing!

It should simply be not the way to win by failing the early game and losing the starter units by being a noob but then protecting the last areas my 50 mm pak and schwimmwagen/scout car mass production! Do that as allied, get more then 1 57 mm pak and you go to hell coz all your res for 57 mm paks are smashed by neblers and early axis arty! So pls make it fair for booth: Either booth can be stupid and hold the line with 5 paks a single vehicle long enough to start counter attacks or nobody should! But saying its ok that axis can be fool and building 5 50 mm paks in row and allied wont crush them fast enough to prevent counterattacks while axis can kill single 37 mm paks and HMGs right with mortars in like the first 5 mins is just bullshit.

Also fail as alli, axis get more than 50% of the map and allied usually lose due to tank IV and neblers. Fail as axis in early game but grens+nebler+Tank IV´s+50 mm can do a come back.


so pls make a decision: No arty at all in early-mid game for booth sides OR light arty in early-mid game for booth sides. Higher game dynamics or WW1 scenario right in the early game which ends up in mega arty parties in late game. WW2 was everything but a static war and this thx to new air and arty power which made no defense strong enough to stay forever. I dont want ww1 scenario in BK for sure. And when defenses are crushed and a lot more mobile units are being used then arty becomes less effective anyway and often cost ineffective also. Only fools keep shooting and producing arty even when game turns into a mobile warfare but those usually lose the game then. I had many games in old versions where my opponents lost badly although having 3 times more arty as we had. Arty is simply not all. As i said i had really games where opponenents used really only arty (2 calli, 2 arty shermans+ several howitzers, priest etc) but they lost very often simply because those wasted all MP and ammo for those. They had no real defense but also no offense. Our team also used lots of arty (maultier, hotchkiss, wespes etc) untill i decided to do somethig for the offense. Ive got some stormtooper and only tank IV´s to share risk and simply didnt blobb. The entire map was empty so far except arty units and i could make a run accross the map with evasive maneuvers and by not blobbing and ive killed all their arty units almost at once. If someone or some people think they can do much when units are moving all the time.... let him have the arty as many as he wants. If someone builds really only defense and not a single offensive then let him... we will lose then to arty which is fair. In booth cases either massive overuse of arty or overuse of defenses resulted in a win simply that: When someone wants endless arty... let him... most of his res will be wasted as good players will simply not build defenses and going for attack after attack and the arty guy cant defend the attacks all the time as he wasted all ammo and MP for arty.

[crimax]

Before last update Air-strikes was widely used against artillery, but now AA are more effective (too much now IMHO) and artillery is again on its "golden-age" (another reason to see it reduced).

Suggestions (very briefly):

1) Remove VT to RA doc (someone complained about extremly defensive game-style BUT forget to tell us when he goes RA and start to spam Howitzers on the far side of the map using VT continuously OR when his team went Terror doc, built 5/6 nebels and did VT spam-abuse with KCHs).

2) Wehmarcht can build only 1 bunker BUT Def doc 2. Stop !

3) PE can build only 1 bunker SE included (never seen it used) AND reduce the mortar-bunker cost (SE doesn't have stationary artillery).

4) Max 2 stationary howitzers for Def, Inf and SE docs (1 naked and 1 fortified). Stop !

5) Max 2 mobile howitzers for RA and SE docs (2 Priests and 1 Wespe+1 Hummel)

6) Increase the CP needed OR costs for the SECOND mobile howitzer to RA and SE docs BUT decrease Hummel cost-per-shell, because SE doesn't have stationary artillery.

Look at the "general ideas" modifications are well accepted.

That's all folks, you just got a more dynamic BK MOD !

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Thats just a stupid limitations which will force player to play in a style which he maybe dont like, also nebel and RA VT spam is no longer possible because terror have 270 sec cooldown, RA spotters are sharing VT cool down between units. We must implement a solution which will not hurt players styles, but will give a solution to crash it. Player invested 90% of his res to a def staff? - opponent got many arty and crashed it.
Player spent huge ammount of arty? - opponent invested all res to a flexible assault army and some light arty like nebel ot 75mm just to smash paks = arty almost useless and arty loger just smashed with a superior number of strong units, when his arty enjoying pointless staying on base. And etc..

@Vfa
Yep, exactly like this, truer words cant be spoken.

[crimax]

I mixed maybe what I consider abuses and what I think about arty in general BUT "Necessary artillery to destroy more stuff" is currently present. The main problem is that it is not well distributed (Inf VS SE, Def VS RA).
This is my point.

My suggestions are intended to prevent possible spam abuses, offensive (arty spam) and defensive (buildings) and yes to reduce a bit artillery.

In compstomp they could be fun but in PvP they are absolutely an "incorrect way to play".

My general idea is to decrease artillery and remove the possibility to spam instead of improve its solution (with other spam maybe).

Anyway, SOME points I read are shareable.

[Warhawks97]

Thats just a stupid limitations which will force player to play in a style which he maybe dont like, also nebel and RA VT spam is no longer possible because terror have 270 sec cooldown, RA spotters are sharing VT cool down between units. We must implement a solution which will not hurt players styles, but will give a solution to crash it. Player invested 90% of his res to a def staff? - opponent got many arty and crashed it.
Player spent huge ammount of arty? - opponent invested all res to a flexible assault army and some light arty like nebel ot 75mm just to smash paks = arty almost useless and arty loger just smashed with a superior number of strong units, when his arty enjoying pointless staying on base. And etc..

@Vfa
Yep, exactly like this, truer words cant be spoken.

yeah, unneccessary restricton. Also even if there would be just one bunker.... imagine how many paks, MG emplacments, Flak fortifications etc will be used. Add to that that we have players arround here which dont dare to attack with 2 Tigers, 1 Panther and 1 Tank IV and using those also only as defensive weapons. If we go so far as you suggested 88´s and stuhs will win almost every battle while all other units incluidng tigers etc will be only used as defense. Arty also forces players to go earlier and later for an attack. Remove it and the days of attacks are gone entirely. Also in old versions we had games with crazy many arty pieces and not seldomly those with less won.



When wolf asked what was different in old versions i could write down a massive text. But remember pls wolf that in older versions only 2 vs 2 was possible to play and relevant 3 vs 3 balance issues occured actually since it is on steam playble withot lobby bugs. In old versions just a handfull players actually played 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4. Also note pls that axis got earlier arty but allied better late game arty in general as all neblers could be then countered with double arty sherman. inf doc could compete with all axis arty docs at that time. Now it cant even compete with def doc arty really. Also axis defensive units came much later. In some patches the bike was available first after first HQ upgrade, HMG couldnt be build right at start due to lack of ammo. Means WE was reduced to Volks, pios and snipers. Today it has HMG, pak and also bike as movable mg42 preventing that axis units get somehow into close combat with M1 Garand in early game. PE could build schimmwagen OR krad. Means mobile mg42 for early offense but less fast capturing. Also PE got 50 mm pak after logistic upgrade and 75mm with Tank support command. Now just two buildings for 50 mm and upgrade for 75 mm. The US could get go into offense with WSC unlocking AT squad with 3 zooks by default. Now it stays mostly in defense untill motorpool is completed. Simply allied did not face so crazy defenses as they do now and howitzer came when axis got paks. The Wespe came much later for 720 mp call in and more CP. Hummel cost 580 mp and 100 fuel.

What has also changed: Axis inf reinforce cost got decreased by 30-40% (Stormtoopers, luft inf, Panzergrens, grens etc). Build cost also dropped sometimes.
Axis tanks got cost decrease (at least fuel) by 20-30%. The introduction of fuel upkeep mainly hurt US because their tanks got highest upkeepa and axis tanks dropped in fuel cost by having lower upkeep. In old versions armor players had like 3-4 shermans and 1-2 TH´s and stable income when there wasnt fuel upkeep, then producing more tanks and upgrading supply yard and at the end we used to overrun the enemie with up to 14-16 shermans (most 76) without counting those three tanks that did skrimish the enemie all time. The 14 -16 tanks was that which was hold back in reserve. Means US armor could deploy fat 4 shermans but also having enough income to get the two supply yard upgrades which cost first 50 and 140 fuel, later 50 and 75. Now US armor builds 3 tanks and income is cut by more than 50% sometimes. At the same time supply yard fuel cost increased from 190 fuel, later 125 fuel, to 340 fuel and at the same time the total received fuel is cut by easily 50% just becuase US armor player has 3 tanks on the field! I had a game recently and after one hour my AB mate received 2300 fuel in total while i as armor doc had 1100 fuel and i never had more than 3-4 tanks on the field and booth fuel income boosts upgraded. Means in old versions: 3 tanks fighting, 14 others did overrun the enemie. Now: 3 tanks.... no fuel and no more tanks and supply yard upgrades.

Take that as sample: imaging one hour game in old version and US armor doc player would have received 2300 fuel after 1 hour like my mate did recently. So he did spend 190 fuel for supply yard, 2100 for tier up and tanks. Now when someone has 2 shermans and one TH early on the income is cut by 50% till end of the game but at the same time supply yard fuel cost increased by up to 60-70%!


Now you can say that axis has same prob but its not really true. At first axis tanks got cost reduction by up to 20 % in fuel cost (IV/70, JP, Tank IV, Tiger) and cost half the upkeep of allied tanks. Also Axis can be played well with inf only for a long time by using simply schrecks and stg squads. There you hold back the tank production untill having 200 fuel and then build one massive tank. During that time fuel income did not drop and then only by 3 when tank is fielded. Allied relay a bit more on tanks. They need HE shermans and aa tanks to fight with axis inf later and they need TH´s when fighting any kind of axis armor. The income drops more and earlier this way. Unlike axis which can do powerfull attacks just with grens/stormtooper and some schrecks allis cant do much with silly zooks when enemie has just like one Tank on the field.


In short what has changed from 4.0-4.8: Axis inf cheaper to reinforce, axis get strong defense stuff earlier, US had more than twice the fuel usable for tanks as now, allied arty got weaker in late game without CW arty doc and a lot more. Also in old versions only a handfull friends (very small community) really played 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 due to lobby bug. In 4.7 it went to steam and the current issues started raising up. In 4.6 i started doing my first rushes with Bk doc when playing with mate BK/luftwaffe combo and when tank IV cost still 100 fuel (75 in BK doc). In 4.7 i played by far less BK and supported your community patch like hell and pushed it through the entire BK community. In last summer i stopped Bk and went back to origin (vcoh). Then i´ve been axis only player for a longer time when coming back. I got active in forum when 4.7 came out. Before that i would have admit that 4.02 was an allied patch and esspecially tetrach patch.

The different as shown above was that US created a bunch of cheap tanks easily and axis some very expensive heavies with res trade. Now alli tank production stops after 4 tanks due to upkeep, total gained fuel income thus cut by 50% and supply yard cost increase by 70%. Axis res trade got unbalanced with introduction of upkeep as it bypasses it, doesnt matter how expensive you gonna make it. Here, instead increasing cost etc and cooldown what about making it more a tactically and strategically ability like MP res trade instead click for more fuel ability all few mins? Meaning that it would work like MP res trade: one Buff to enable BK doc getting a bunch of units/Tanks for an assault but icnome cut by 50% for the duration of cooldown (3 mins). Currently it enables BK doc not only to build more tanks at once as intended than armor doc but also more over time. The number of tanks armor fields for example in 3 mins BK would field at once but at the end of that 3 mins booth would have build same number or armor doc even a few more.


I hope you read that ammount of text but you asked what has changed. if you want i can try to do a more detailed list of changes in each version of what i remember but thats the main points. So due to this changes early arty only for axis and expensive supply yard isnt up to date anymore. Whenever this was balanced its not anymore since axis get much earlier stronger defense or defense stuff at all and since fuel upkeep got introduced. Thats why early arty for allied as well and massive cost reduction in supply yard. Also the TH doc would have made sense in old versions where (as i explained) US rushed with 16 shermans the enemie. But now when US armor fields hardly 5 tanks axis got painfull cheap TH´s. lol.


crimax: i dont have problems with spams really (sniper spam would be crazy, ok). Only arty never won games or at least it was not sure to win that way (except enemie is fool and keeps producing def stuff). And what is an "incorrect way to play" ?oO. I know that there is a "gentlemens agreement" not to bomb enemie base whenver possible but what else is "incorrect"? And whats wrong on spam in general? I think certain units shouldnt be spamable but that should be prevented at first with cost instead with pointless restrictions. Also we have some missing spam: US armor for example (read text above)