[NEW MAP] Epic 2vs2

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[NEW MAP] Epic 2vs2

Postby Tiger1996 » 18 May 2018, 16:44

My work on this map was totally worth it! Epic 2v2 with Warhawks in my team as Allies against both Henny and DerSeeman as Axis.

Link to the map from the Steam workshop:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 1386864607
You only need to subscribe the map and it will automatically download, also plz rate the map and maybe add it to your "favorites list" as well ;)

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RAF and US infantry doctrines vs Blitz and Luft docs... Enjoy 8-)

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Re: [NEW MAP] Epic 2vs2

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 19 May 2018, 04:07

Giving it more thought, I'm beginning to see more clearly why late-games like these for infantry doctrine always end up having nothing to do with infantry at all. Look at the last 5 minutes of the game and count how many 76mm AT gun emplacements there are. Or how many US tanks/tank destroyers were fielded.

I know the reasoning behind this is because Infantry doctrine is more of a multi-role doctrine that has artillery along with infantry in it. But my thoughts are still the same regarding the right side tree of inf doc from rapid response to mass mobilization. It is detrimental and in fact very helpful for axis in the end if you choose to 'rush' or go for it instead of the many other useful stuff inf doc gets.

Let's look at this tree:

Rapid Response: Faster reinforcing/building of infantry units for 1 CP; ok not bad.

Defensive Operations: Rifles can build sandbags/mines, and engineers now quick build emplacements and other stuff; pretty good for 1 + 1 CP.

Mass Production: Buying weapon upgrades for infantry squads is cheaper, not really that great for 2 + 2 CPs(reaching panther-rush levels of CP's here). Could make those weapon upgrades even more cheaper.

Mass Mobilization: Alright, this is the most problematic ability of them considering how late you get this and how 'useful' it is. You get cheaper squads and reinforcing costs. But upkeep is not affected. Some special set of units like snipers and ranger infiltration squads are not affected. Moreover the stats of these units who don't become cheaper are not affected either. But the main problem being the riflemen squad is still the same unit you get from the start. Even after spending a total of 6 CPs on this mass mobilization unlock, its combat ability is not affected at all; only its cost.

This last ability really needs a rework for how many CP's are you spending on it. I don't think there's any other ability that tops the 'usefulness' of going through this tree to unlock just this one(yes, even sector propaganda is more useful). Having more infantry units on the field isn't really that big of a 'boon' if you consider that more units = more upkeep = more deaths = more xp/cps for axis overall. Also consider how useful infantry is to use against late game vehicles. This tree can actually cripple infantry doctrine if you forsake other stuff to reach the end of it. Infantry doctrine doesn't even get a single tank unit that has capable AT unless you use CP's to unlock it. At least a cromwell can destroy panzer 4s with its speed and reasonably fast firing gun. You don't even get that kind of tank as inf doc. Just a M4 sherman from the tank depot and nothing else(unless you count the crocodile as 'anti-tank').

Thinking about it, this ability should be reworked to not make your infantry units 'cheaper' and more available in 'mass' but actually make them better. Way stronger than if they were without unlocking this ability.

I don't really know what you would name it, but this is how the ability should work if I was the one making the stat changes for it:

- No more cheaper inf, or cheaper reinforcing cost, just forget about that stuff. It's not useful at all later in the game(look at the 300 MP captain riflemen squads late game performance for example).

- Every infantry squad gains enough experience to gain the first veterancy level upon unlocking this ability(Like RAF late game commando unlocks).

- Every infantry squad except Rangers/Rangers from the GMC Truck, gain veterancy faster by 25%.

- Every infantry squad gets +5 HP per model. So engineers go from 45 hp per model to 50; Rangers from 75 hp to 80(same as Grenadiers); Rifles from 60 to 65(same as Panzer Grenadiers); etc.

- Every infantry squad has reduced upkeep by 10-20%(I was thinking about giving them less received accuracy here, but that would be going overboard and doesn't fit the mold of infantry doctrine).

6 CPs for this then doesn't sound bad actually. It lets you have another option as inf doc rather than just going through all the other trees and taking this one last instead.

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Re: [NEW MAP] Epic 2vs2

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 19 May 2018, 06:58

Great match, enjoyed it a lot! The map seems nice as well.

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Re: [NEW MAP] Epic 2vs2

Postby Tiger1996 » 19 May 2018, 12:55

MenciusMoldbug wrote:Giving it more thought, I'm beginning to see more clearly why late-games like these for infantry doctrine always end up having nothing to do with infantry at all.

Well, partly I could agree.. as I believe that there is nothing wrong about allowing stronger infantry for this doctrine. Some quality wouldn't hurt!
Specifically when the quality is increased while reducing the quantity factor a little bit on the other hand.

However, on a different note...
I actually think that infantry doctrine is more than fine with regular HE Shermans btw.. for the cost of a single Jumbo, it's possible to obtain 2 regular Shermans which are also doing great. And this match was a great example for that too! Hawks only used regular HE Shermans and they did just fine. Thus, I firmly believe that infantry doctrine should no longer keep the Jumbo Shermans, as I think Armor doc REALLY needs the 75mm Jumbo Shermans in return.. more particularly, I would wish to see Armor doc reworked the same way how I suggested on another topic recently.

Also, I'm a bit annoyed about the fact that Tiger Ace can't use ALRS ability right away. Actually so annoyed, and kinda irritates me :/ That's something I'm really concerned about to be honest. I really hope MarKr would consider removing flank speed from Tigers while allowing ALRS ability earlier at vet.1 for all Tigers (including ACE) on the next patch. I've been also hoping for this change since a very long time...

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Great match, enjoyed it a lot! The map seems nice as well.

So glad to hear that you are enjoying it! ;)

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Re: [NEW MAP] Epic 2vs2

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 May 2018, 19:29

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Great match, enjoyed it a lot! The map seems nice as well.

The map is nice. Sadly after the game i figured that our win was kind of a "gift". Öli had about 1000- 1500 MP in reserve and 14 CP which he could have used to upgrade his fallis with vet 1 and defensive boost or bulding AA or additional Jagdpanzers.

So the game was hard, yes, but not really a deserved win for us. I would like to repeat it.
@menicus: yes.

Ive been used to get cheap fast but i gave up. It makes inf not as cheap anymore as it used to be.
Every other mass prod kind ability comes fast. RE emplacments, shermans, TH´s, Jagdpanzers... so why should inf (the worst sort of it) get cheap so late.

I would like to see something like reaching faster vet with rifle squads. That way the replacment units would become somewhat usefull earlier.
Like 25% faster vet.... idk.
Just something that makes them more usefull rather than plain cheap.

Making things simply cheaper aint help. We learned that now for shermans as well.

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