How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

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Henny
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How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Henny » 11 Mar 2018, 05:20

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Today, I will be teaching who ever reads this topic how to vaporize ANY axis squad (Grens, assault grens, stormtroopers, fjr, shit probably even 1st
SS leibstandarte squads) as the American faction using the new and improved rifleman squads. Turn those 550 MP units into useless cannon fodder with your awesome riflemen squads.


To begin, you'll want to start with the typical opening, but this time aim for 2x riflemen squads, and an early at unit ( 57mm Halftrack, 37mm anti tank, or even Greyhound car). Then, get those riflemen squads 2x BAR upgrades each for a total of 4. Then, get a captain and call in the 7 riflemen squad ( these guys are amazing they come with BARS for only 300 mp ?!?!?). This should all be done in less than 9 minutes. Now the PAIN begins.

Gather your captain and your 3x Riflemen squads, maybe a sherman or greyhound, and your anti-tank halftrack and just roam the land. When you come across those grenadier squads with those dangerous MP44's, just hold (even in red cover) and press the suppress skill on just 1 of your riflemen squads. Now, that elite axis grenadier squad (EVEN FJR !!!!) should be pinned down in less than 0.1 seconds from all the BARS and captain bonus. Then advance your riflemen squads against that axis squad and wipe them out for good. Using this tactic (suppressive bar fire) I GUARANTEE YOU WILL steamroll ANY axis squad you come across. Once you get vet 3 riflemen squad you are basically invincible. By this point of the game you should see what doc your enemy has and choose accordingly.

The Beauty of this tactic is that it is NOT doctrine dependent. You can use any american doctrine so that means you can counter pick doctrine's very late in the game (if they pick BK you go armor etc). Use this knowledge wisely, it is very dangerous in the wrong hands, using this tactic i managed to go 11-0 in PVP games against moderately skilled players as the American faction.

Just one example of this tactic in action, as requested by Markr. If you want more replays of this tactic, just post or pm me, I will show you

4p_d913_v098.2018-03-09.17-27-44.rec
(1.07 MiB) Downloaded 15 times


My friend sent me this game against CyberZombie and his mates. He stated that he followed my guide and exclusively uses riflemen in this playback. He surprisingly picks airborne doctrine very late in the game (30 minutes). This playback mainly highlights the fact that you can go through the whole game using just riflemen and AT squads to defeat whatever axis can throw at you.
6p_veuleslesroses.2018-03-11.15-25-03.rec
(3.01 MiB) Downloaded 8 times
Last edited by Henny on 12 Mar 2018, 02:11, edited 6 times in total.

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MarKr
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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby MarKr » 11 Mar 2018, 08:05

Nice guide, thanks! Can you post some replay where this is demosntrated? Just so I can see it in action and learn from it...

BTW: You say that Riflemen can do this because of BARs and their suppression ability...how comes that it is a problem out of sudden when the BARs and the suppression ability have been around for years and not touched for the same ammount of time? :?
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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Henny » 11 Mar 2018, 08:13

MarKr wrote:Nice guide, thanks! Can you post some replay where this is demosntrated? Just so I can see it in action and learn from it...

BTW: You say that Riflemen can do this because of BARs and their suppression ability...how comes that it is a problem out of sudden when the BARs and the suppression ability have been around for years and not touched for the same ammount of time? :?





I posted an example that my friend gave to me, he plays as the allied side. Riflemen form the backbone of his army, that is all I need to say

I never said they were a problem :) , some people might not know about this ability that riflemen have. It is one of the most effective allied skills to use and I just wanted to raise awareness about it.

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby MarKr » 11 Mar 2018, 08:31

But you pretty much say that Riflemen are Axis killers now and the only point you give is that they use BARs and the suppression ability. These have been untouched for a loooong time. The HP of Riflemen is still the same (60HP - same as Volks, and less than any other Axis combat infantry), their "resistance to damage" is still the same, only their price went up to make up for the Garands changes...but you mention only BARs as the reason for Axis vaporization. This is what confuses me.
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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Henny » 11 Mar 2018, 08:40

MarKr wrote:But you pretty much say that Riflemen are Axis killers now and the only point you give is that they use BARs and the suppression ability. These have been untouched for a loooong time. The HP of Riflemen is still the same (60HP - same as Volks, and less than any other Axis combat infantry), their "resistance to damage" is still the same, only their price went up to make up for the Garands changes...but you mention only BARs as the reason for Axis vaporization. This is what confuses me.


I don't want to go back and forth, it is just a guide. Riflemen and suppression are indeed axis killers and it always has been that way, although it is now a bit deadlier with the changes to the M1 Garand. If you get the 7 man riflemen squad you don't have to worry about munition costs for the BAR just for the suppression ability, which is a good deal for just 50 MP more for the captain call in

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby MarKr » 11 Mar 2018, 10:08

I'm watching the replay and I am at about minute 20. So far I haven't seen where Riflemen overperform...You (I guess you are the "Riflemen are OP - watch" player) had an advantage simply because of units you brought with you. 2x Riflemen vs 2x Volks where one Volks squad is fighting and the other is capturing (so just standing and not shooting). In this case you are basically fighting 2v1 - you won thanks to numbers. Later you have Riflemen upgraded with BARs and he has about 140 ammo reserve but no upgrade on his Volks and starts upgrading Grenadiers with StG44. Later he has a Grenadier squad upgraded with StG44 (probably double upgrade, not sure) and he runs out of cover to rush (weapons have worse accuracy on the move) your Riflemen who have 2x BAR, 4x Garand (which shoots more accurately at closer ranges) AND the squad is in green cover - they have better cover, better RoF better accuracy. Why shouldn't they win? Instead of StG44 he should have gone for LMG and fight from distance. It has been said many times here that rushing Riflemen is not very good idea now but people keep fighting them as if Riflemen were still with the old Garand stats.
Also you combined your infantry with vehicles more often than he did - by the end he had the StuG and once he approached your riflemen with it, you retreated, though he many times sent his infantry toward your Sherman which then killed 3+ soldiers in a squad with a single shot.

In certain situations the Suppressive fire ability seemed quite strong but the overall effectiveness of your side was (at least from my point of view) in better usage of units and combining units more effectively.
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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Shanks » 11 Mar 2018, 11:18

Henny wrote:Today, I will be teaching who ever reads this topic how to vaporize ANY axis squad (Grens, assault grens, stormtroopers, fjr, shit probably even 1st
SS leibstandarte squads) as the American faction using the new and improved rifleman squads. Turn those 550 MP units into useless cannon fodder with your awesome riflemen squads.


To begin, you'll want to start with the typical opening, but this time aim for 2x riflemen squads, and an early at unit ( 57mm Halftrack, 37mm anti tank, or even Greyhound car). Then, get those riflemen squads 2x BAR upgrades each for a total of 4. Then, get a captain and call in the 7 riflemen squad ( these guys are amazing they come with BARS for only 300 mp ?!?!?). This should all be done in less than 9 minutes. Now the PAIN begins.

Gather your captain and your 3x Riflemen squads, maybe a sherman or greyhound, and your anti-tank halftrack and just roam the land. When you come across those grenadier squads with those dangerous MP44's, just hold (even in red cover) and press the suppress skill on just 1 of your riflemen squads. Now, that elite axis grenadier squad (EVEN FJR !!!!) should be pinned down in less than 0.1 seconds from all the BARS and captain bonus. Then advance your riflemen squads against that axis squad and wipe them out for good. Using this tactic (suppressive bar fire) I GUARANTEE YOU WILL steamroll ANY axis squad you come across. Once you get vet 3 riflemen squad you are basically invincible. By this point of the game you should see what doc your enemy has and choose accordingly.

The Beauty of this tactic is that it is NOT doctrine dependent. You can use any american doctrine so that means you can counter pick doctrine's very late in the game (if they pick BK you go armor etc). Use this knowledge wisely, it is very dangerous in the wrong hands, using this tactic i managed to go 11-0 in PVP games against moderately skilled players as the American faction.

Just one example of this tactic in action, as requested by Markr

4p_d913_v098.2018-03-09.17-27-44.rec



noob comment, later i go to kick your butt with the axis...... wait your turn,plz, I'm kicking other "pro players now"

Edit by MarKr: Accidental double post deleted ;)

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 Mar 2018, 14:05

MarKr wrote:Later you have Riflemen upgraded with BARs and he has about 140 ammo reserve but no upgrade on his Volks and starts upgrading Grenadiers with StG44. Later he has a Grenadier squad upgraded with StG44 (probably double upgrade, not sure) and he runs out of cover to rush (weapons have worse accuracy on the move) your Riflemen who have 2x BAR, 4x Garand (which shoots more accurately at closer ranges) AND the squad is in green cover - they have better cover, better RoF better accuracy. Why shouldn't they win? Instead of StG44 he should have gone for LMG and fight from distance. It has been said many times here that rushing Riflemen is not very good idea now but people keep fighting them as if Riflemen were still with the old Garand stats.


I think thats something many have to learn now. It was often as easy as this. Get stgs on your inf and make "rush-retreat-rush-retreat" untill all enemies were dead. Ive been using volks and lmgs for years but never saw many others using them.

However, i want to point at something different now. Isnt it now some sort of disadvantage for Terror grens to be equiped standard with stgs after upgrade when it might be more usefull keeping k98 and lmg for ranged combat? I havent played terror often and if then only with ST, stugs and AT squads vs armor and RE doc and seldomly vs US inf. But i can imagine that once you upgraded the stg it might be difficult to fight rifle squads. Just a thought.

MarKr wrote:Also you combined your infantry with vehicles more often than he did - by the end he had the StuG and once he approached your riflemen with it, you retreated, though he many times sent his infantry toward your Sherman which then killed 3+ soldiers in a squad with a single shot.


I think the reasons is here:

Henny wrote:Gather your captain and your 3x Riflemen squads, maybe a sherman or greyhound, and your anti-tank halftrack and just roam the land.


Its quite difficult using vehicles as axis. Either bc of Boys AT or all the 57 mm HT - often two of them- staying always right behind the inf and making vehicle deplyoment as axis to counter infantry difficult. And yes, its the 75 range they have unambushed. With normal range you could use inf, vehicles and 50 mm as a defense. But the 57 mm HT can simply stay outside your AT gun range. That basically means that your 50 mm pak has to stay in front of your infantry and vehicle to be effective and only when in ambush (otherwise the crew would be shred by allied infantry quite quickly).

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby MarKr » 11 Mar 2018, 14:22

Warhawks97 wrote:However, i want to point at something different now. Isnt it now some sort of disadvantage for Terror grens to be equiped standard with stgs after upgrade when it might be more usefull keeping k98 and lmg for ranged combat? I havent played terror often and if then only with ST, stugs and AT squads vs armor and RE doc and seldomly vs US inf. But i can imagine that once you upgraded the stg it might be difficult to fight rifle squads. Just a thought.
That is also one of the things adressed in the rework stuff.

Warhawks97 wrote:Its quite difficult using vehicles as axis. Either bc of Boys AT or all the 57 mm HT - often two of them- staying always right behind the inf and making vehicle deplyoment as axis to counter infantry difficult. And yes, its the 75 range they have unambushed. With normal range you could use inf, vehicles and 50 mm as a defense. But the 57 mm HT can simply stay outside your AT gun range. That basically means that your 50 mm pak has to stay in front of your infantry and vehicle to be effective and only when in ambush (otherwise the crew would be shred by allied infantry quite quickly).
A change for this comes in the 5.1.4 update.
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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Shanks » 11 Mar 2018, 16:58

MarKr wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:However, i want to point at something different now. Isnt it now some sort of disadvantage for Terror grens to be equiped standard with stgs after upgrade when it might be more usefull keeping k98 and lmg for ranged combat? I havent played terror often and if then only with ST, stugs and AT squads vs armor and RE doc and seldomly vs US inf. But i can imagine that once you upgraded the stg it might be difficult to fight rifle squads. Just a thought.
That is also one of the things adressed in the rework stuff.

Warhawks97 wrote:Its quite difficult using vehicles as axis. Either bc of Boys AT or all the 57 mm HT - often two of them- staying always right behind the inf and making vehicle deplyoment as axis to counter infantry difficult. And yes, its the 75 range they have unambushed. With normal range you could use inf, vehicles and 50 mm as a defense. But the 57 mm HT can simply stay outside your AT gun range. That basically means that your 50 mm pak has to stay in front of your infantry and vehicle to be effective and only when in ambush (otherwise the crew would be shred by allied infantry quite quickly).
A change for this comes in the 5.1.4 update.


when can we play 5.1.4 ???

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby MarKr » 11 Mar 2018, 18:00

I've been quite busy last few weeks but I got most of the stuff for the patch ready...I still want to make TDs to auto target tanks in ambush mode by default and enable "hold-fire" with the specilized button and one other minor thing. So hopefuly it will be soon.
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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Tiger1996 » 11 Mar 2018, 18:15

Warhawks97 wrote:Its quite difficult using vehicles as axis. Either bc of Boys AT or all the 57 mm HT - often two of them- staying always right behind the inf and making vehicle deplyoment as axis to counter infantry difficult.

I think AT boys are fine.. but the 57mm half-track in RE doc and all USA docs, is quite hilarious really.
That thing has extremely high accuracy against AT guns somehow! Even at max range while moving... I often keep sniping AT guns with it :D Just a spotter and all AT guns are dead after 2 hits. Not to mention that AT guns most of the time can't even shoot me back as they have some aim time now, while my half-track can just snipe them without even aiming then quickly drive backward on the other hand. I can safely say that 57mm half-track is the most hilarious unit in the game currently to be honest :lol: So ridiculous...

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Warhawks97 » 11 Mar 2018, 18:53

Thats bc the medium AT guns (all of them) have 200% basic accuracy vs enemie AT guns. That means you cant fail enemie AT guns with medium AT guns.

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Tiger1996 » 11 Mar 2018, 19:05

Ya, I think the accuracy thing itself is fine.. but AT guns are supposed to be out-ranging other stuff, and not out-ranged or out-gunned somehow :P
So, the 57mm half-track could keep this accuracy against AT guns.. but then the basic range need to be lower, and not same as AT guns anymore!
I hope MarKr will do that... Eventually he could also increase the overall accuracy of that vehicle against other targets too.

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Henny » 12 Mar 2018, 00:34

If you guys want to see more replays of this tactic against more competent opponents, don't hesitate to let me know

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Shanks » 12 Mar 2018, 02:05

Henny wrote:If you guys want to see more replays of this tactic against more competent opponents, don't hesitate to let me know



I want nerf for popa, he is OP player

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Henny » 12 Mar 2018, 02:10

Shanks wrote:
Henny wrote:If you guys want to see more replays of this tactic against more competent opponents, don't hesitate to let me know



I want nerf for popa, he is OP player


I don't think I am OP, it's just I play every game to the best of my ability. I am still prone to making mistakes and losing units, but I always try to have a strategic focus for every game

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Shanks » 12 Mar 2018, 02:20

Henny wrote:
Shanks wrote:
Henny wrote:If you guys want to see more replays of this tactic against more competent opponents, don't hesitate to let me know



I want nerf for popa, he is OP player


I don't think I am OP, it's just I play every game to the best of my ability. I am still prone to making mistakes and losing units, but I always try to have a strategic focus for every game


if you manage to win in 2v2 in 10 minutes "thanks to the new USA riflemen" vs mencius and karma (axis) or ete and jonny (axis), I will reconsider what you say!

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Henny » 12 Mar 2018, 02:30

Shanks wrote:
Henny wrote:
Shanks wrote:

I want nerf for popa, he is OP player


I don't think I am OP, it's just I play every game to the best of my ability. I am still prone to making mistakes and losing units, but I always try to have a strategic focus for every game


if you manage to win in 2v2 in 10 minutes "thanks to the new USA riflemen" vs mencius and karma (axis) or ete and jonny (axis), I will reconsider what you say!


I could never face Bide or Illa, they are my brothers in arms. If Ete and Jonny are willing to play axis against me then I will upload the replay ASAP :)

Nonetheless, this is not a dick measuring contest. I am simply trying to provide knowledge about a very effective tactic in the current meta game. It's just my job to spread the knowledge, not to spoon feed you. If you want to use these tactics or not I do not care, I just believe it is a good thing to help other players out with their game

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Warhawks97 » 12 Mar 2018, 03:17

Henny wrote:
I could never face Bide or Illa, they are my brothers in arms. If Ete and Jonny are willing to play axis against me then I will upload the replay ASAP :)



too bad. I had lots of "brothers in arms". And we all used to play against each other in various team combinations (we were like 10 guys). That was the best way to get a clear view bc we had lots of internal balance talks and different views.

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Shanks » 12 Mar 2018, 10:59

Henny wrote:Nonetheless, this is not a dick measuring contest. I am simply trying to provide knowledge about a very effective tactic in the current meta game. It's just my job to spread the knowledge, not to spoon feed you. If you want to use these tactics or not I do not care, I just believe it is a good thing to help other players out with their game


Sry,I misunderstood you, but now I think I understand you
8-)

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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Mar 2018, 19:32

Ive watched the first replay to the half.

But i cant see where exactly rifles had been OP there. The first encounter was basically 2 vs 1. Later the fights have been at best a draw. The first rifles got coutnumbered in a distant fight and died within seconds. Later same once he left the cover.

What i dont get from the axis side:

1. Why he havent got a recon. I watched till min 15 now. He got many units but no recon. Here US player is vastly better.
2. The Puma came far too late. When he had two volks he has build a gren squad and gave stg (meta). Ive never ever got grens before Puma. Volks doing goo enough, esspecially with lmg in such games. Probably i wouldnt have build a single gren squad. I have barely build any grens at all bc i went for Tank IV´s instead or stormtroopers.
3. He knew that US uses semi rifles. That means using recons is the best option to prevent going into a close combat.
4. He went very late for the most important point.
5. He spends 200 ammo to OP point for 200 ammo while having 161 fuel in reserve. Not building grens, not spending into stgs and perhaps one AT squad less and instead a 50 mm AT gun + one AT squad and not upgrading that fuel would have enabled him to have a mixed army of Volks, Puma, mortar, recon and a stug III or even a tank IVJ. Thats how i played axis (BK doc). The US had nothing at this time. Perhaps he could have played more risky and instead building recon and tank factory making a double surprising Puma rush.
6. At min 28 builds even more inf. Despite knowing there are shermans the axis player plays the Most typicall Meta. He doesnt even consider to get stugs. He choosed Terror doc probably. I dont know but how often got it mentioned that terror is a costly late ingiting doctrine?

What US did perhaps wrong:
1. He spend lots of ammo for BAR´s, suppressive fire for a rather unimportant engagment near axis base and then lots of MP for 7 men rifle squad. He lacked AT capabilties. He had to get at least a 57 mm by that time (min 15). Greyhound isnt a good counter vs Pumas used aggressively using turret rotation speed and close range fire power superiority over the 37 mm greyhound gun.
2. The geyhound could have used mines to cover flanks.
3. Why choosing armor doc?


I saw a jeep being powerfull but nothing really related to "the new Garand". BARs have been this way for ages and rifles die as i am used to.
If rifles would be weaker and BARs not worth its cost this topic would have probably the name "How to vaporize axis with 2 CP inf doc 105 off map strike".
Well, perhaps an off map strike would have been a better investment instead for BAR´s, nades and suppressive fire. Who knows.
I think the usage of arty from US side would largely reduce when their combat units can actually fight the enemie instead of working as meatshields so that the off map arty can make the kill.
Either way, people will complain.

But let me place a question. I see the axis made a comback. What if US wouldnt be able to start as good as they did here? What if they would sit on a ground not larger as the one the axis has held for a while. I guess he would have died very fast to early 81 mm mortar, puma and stug.

Now there is a comback and a sherman (which is half dead already during first engagment). The Axis has the economic power to completely overrun the US with a stug, tank IV and puma. Despite the bad start he had. Its basically luck for the US that the axis player is a very carefully one who plays absolute meta. In his doc pick (terror i guess) but also build order-> Only infantry untill panther. We simply ignore the fact the US dude has shermans.

Min 19-20. He got stugs but rushed into rifles. Thats how axis were used to: Rifles are no threat even when rushing them. I wonder he lost only 3 men when his men laying down in front of the rifle squad. Which btw spend another 40 ammo.
Also i guess we shall ignore the engagment between 4 rifles in green cover, vet and and BAR and the 4 pios in yellow cover? Starting at about min 20? The engagment lasts several seconds? Does this small engagment in particluar looks like rifles being OP in any single way?
Perhaps we try the same with 4 vet volks and lmg and cover vs 4 engineers under same conditions. Someone here in forum said that US can win by just spamming engineers.



Now to the second game:
1. It was high res game. That means that US can get captain and 7 men rifles right away almost. That means that i expected a game that would last 10 mins with a win for allis. But it wasnt.
2. Viking camped next to his base and choosed BK doc. But both WH players have failed to get probably the most valuable unit: The Puma with 20 mm. It could have changed the tide in many infantry engagments. By failing getting them the US player luckinvolved could beat his enemie antonion bakarec. Also US used the greyhound with success.
3. Antonion simply walked, yes, walked, towards rifle squads. Sometimes two of them with bar and perfect cover. What would you expect to happen?
4. Viking got a nice recon but no units, antonio units but no recon.
5. Cyberzombie did great. He carried axis and fought so far all sides. Killing cq vehicles and many US units.
6. Takoz has lost all his rifles at some time. Probably a good example of the greatness of rifle squads.
7. A single lucky off map arty strike from takoz killed the entire upgraded SS squad from cyberzombie. That did more than any rifle squad managed to do up to this time.
8. At about min 10 a gren squad just walked along right in front of brits inf with lmgs. Just like that. He went on, bursted the AT squad with his last gren alive and his lmg and then walking, not retreat, walking back to safety.
9. The stug from viking did great. Crimax seemed to be sleeping, He didnt recoginze the bren carrier being attacked by 28 mm, same for his recce... he lost like 3 or more of them.
10. At min 16 crimax was defeated. Viking simply failed throughout the entire game to bring Ostwinds and AA stuff. The assault was stopped by a single airplane killing two squads.
11. Viking could have completely finished the game at about 20 mins. He had res to overrun crimax and the entire upper map with wat least 2 Tank IV´s and a Puma.... getting recons and Ostwinds. He never ever did it. Instead he was just another meta gamer aka: "I dont spend res untill i get a god damn tiger (ace)" (and wonder why he loses).
12. Takoz was kind of inactive. He played infantry doctrine just for the Jumbo. Thats the whole reason of using inf doc: They have better tanks.......
13. Luckinvolved played well with good micro on his infantry. He was fairly the best allied player in this game. Just he forgot upgrading the supply yard at least untill this moment. It also seems that he didnt know what doc to choose at first. He still had 1000 MP in reserve and the capability (if he had choosen a doc) to finish his enemie at some point. (later he got AB and upgraded supply yard.
14. Cyberzombie is the only really effective player on axis side.
15. Cyberzombie had to pick TH doc just bc of jumbos from infantry doctrine.

Just a question (at devs): Do you still think that inf doc needs the Jumbo? I mean i could understand it before perhaps as you needed it to hold your line against rushing inf. But Riflemen are no working and can hold most attacks by their own. Their rangers work also better now.

Perhaps this change for the rifles can bring back the question to make rangers only avaialble for inf doc bc the other two docs have their backbone infantry now and jumbos all to armor doc.

I will stop watching before the game ends.

What i can see so far in all these games is that rifles have become what they are supposed to be: A Backbone unit for US. Thats what ive been used to from volks for years. Both working differently and thus giving each faction a different gameplay. Thats just great. Rifles can hold the line, stopping aggressively rushing infantry and killing stuff when the situation is in their favour. They arent as great for attacks as grens and other elite infantry but they dont have to. They wont win ranged engagments over time if left alone and need support. They can back up assaults and can bring badly planned counterattacks to a grinding end. They do what they were meant to do but were never capable till now. Its a backbone unit. Not more and not less.

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Henny
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Joined: 02 Aug 2016, 04:30

Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Henny » 15 Mar 2018, 21:08

Warhawks97 wrote:Ive watched the first replay to the half.

But i cant see where exactly rifles had been OP there. The first encounter was basically 2 vs 1. Later the fights have been at best a draw. The first rifles got coutnumbered in a distant fight and died within seconds. Later same once he left the cover.

What i dont get from the axis side:

1. Why he havent got a recon. I watched till min 15 now. He got many units but no recon. Here US player is vastly better.
2. The Puma came far too late. When he had two volks he has build a gren squad and gave stg (meta). Ive never ever got grens before Puma. Volks doing goo enough, esspecially with lmg in such games. Probably i wouldnt have build a single gren squad. I have barely build any grens at all bc i went for Tank IV´s instead or stormtroopers.
3. He knew that US uses semi rifles. That means using recons is the best option to prevent going into a close combat.
4. He went very late for the most important point.
5. He spends 200 ammo to OP point for 200 ammo while having 161 fuel in reserve. Not building grens, not spending into stgs and perhaps one AT squad less and instead a 50 mm AT gun + one AT squad and not upgrading that fuel would have enabled him to have a mixed army of Volks, Puma, mortar, recon and a stug III or even a tank IVJ. Thats how i played axis (BK doc). The US had nothing at this time. Perhaps he could have played more risky and instead building recon and tank factory making a double surprising Puma rush.
6. At min 28 builds even more inf. Despite knowing there are shermans the axis player plays the Most typicall Meta. He doesnt even consider to get stugs. He choosed Terror doc probably. I dont know but how often got it mentioned that terror is a costly late ingiting doctrine?

What US did perhaps wrong:
1. He spend lots of ammo for BAR´s, suppressive fire for a rather unimportant engagment near axis base and then lots of MP for 7 men rifle squad. He lacked AT capabilties. He had to get at least a 57 mm by that time (min 15). Greyhound isnt a good counter vs Pumas used aggressively using turret rotation speed and close range fire power superiority over the 37 mm greyhound gun.
2. The geyhound could have used mines to cover flanks.
3. Why choosing armor doc?


I saw a jeep being powerfull but nothing really related to "the new Garand". BARs have been this way for ages and rifles die as i am used to.
If rifles would be weaker and BARs not worth its cost this topic would have probably the name "How to vaporize axis with 2 CP inf doc 105 off map strike".
Well, perhaps an off map strike would have been a better investment instead for BAR´s, nades and suppressive fire. Who knows.
I think the usage of arty from US side would largely reduce when their combat units can actually fight the enemie instead of working as meatshields so that the off map arty can make the kill.
Either way, people will complain.

But let me place a question. I see the axis made a comback. What if US wouldnt be able to start as good as they did here? What if they would sit on a ground not larger as the one the axis has held for a while. I guess he would have died very fast to early 81 mm mortar, puma and stug.

Now there is a comback and a sherman (which is half dead already during first engagment). The Axis has the economic power to completely overrun the US with a stug, tank IV and puma. Despite the bad start he had. Its basically luck for the US that the axis player is a very carefully one who plays absolute meta. In his doc pick (terror i guess) but also build order-> Only infantry untill panther. We simply ignore the fact the US dude has shermans.

Min 19-20. He got stugs but rushed into rifles. Thats how axis were used to: Rifles are no threat even when rushing them. I wonder he lost only 3 men when his men laying down in front of the rifle squad. Which btw spend another 40 ammo.
Also i guess we shall ignore the engagment between 4 rifles in green cover, vet and and BAR and the 4 pios in yellow cover? Starting at about min 20? The engagment lasts several seconds? Does this small engagment in particluar looks like rifles being OP in any single way?
Perhaps we try the same with 4 vet volks and lmg and cover vs 4 engineers under same conditions. Someone here in forum said that US can win by just spamming engineers.



Now to the second game:
1. It was high res game. That means that US can get captain and 7 men rifles right away almost. That means that i expected a game that would last 10 mins with a win for allis. But it wasnt.
2. Viking camped next to his base and choosed BK doc. But both WH players have failed to get probably the most valuable unit: The Puma with 20 mm. It could have changed the tide in many infantry engagments. By failing getting them the US player luckinvolved could beat his enemie antonion bakarec. Also US used the greyhound with success.
3. Antonion simply walked, yes, walked, towards rifle squads. Sometimes two of them with bar and perfect cover. What would you expect to happen?
4. Viking got a nice recon but no units, antonio units but no recon.
5. Cyberzombie did great. He carried axis and fought so far all sides. Killing cq vehicles and many US units.
6. Takoz has lost all his rifles at some time. Probably a good example of the greatness of rifle squads.
7. A single lucky off map arty strike from takoz killed the entire upgraded SS squad from cyberzombie. That did more than any rifle squad managed to do up to this time.
8. At about min 10 a gren squad just walked along right in front of brits inf with lmgs. Just like that. He went on, bursted the AT squad with his last gren alive and his lmg and then walking, not retreat, walking back to safety.
9. The stug from viking did great. Crimax seemed to be sleeping, He didnt recoginze the bren carrier being attacked by 28 mm, same for his recce... he lost like 3 or more of them.
10. At min 16 crimax was defeated. Viking simply failed throughout the entire game to bring Ostwinds and AA stuff. The assault was stopped by a single airplane killing two squads.

I will stop watching before the game ends:
1. Viking could have completely finished the game at about 20 mins. He had res to overrun crimax and the entire upper map with wat least 2 Tank IV´s and a Puma.... getting recons and Ostwinds. He never ever did it. Instead he was just another meta gamer aka: "I dont spend res untill i get a god damn tiger (ace)" (and wonder why he loses).
2. Takoz was kind of inactive. He played infantry doctrine just for the Jumbo. Thats the whole reason of using inf doc: They have better tanks.......
3. Luckinvolved played well with good micro on his infantry. He was fairly the best allied player in this game. Just he forgot upgrading the supply yard at least untill this moment. It also seems that he didnt know what doc to choose at first. He still had 1000 MP in reserve and the capability (if he had choosen a doc) to finish his enemie at some point. (later he got AB and upgraded supply yard.
4. Cyberzombie is the only really effective player on axis side.

What i can see so far in all these games is that rifles have become what they are supposed to be: A Backbone unit for US. Thats what ive been used to from volks for years. Both working differently and thus giving each faction a different gameplay. Thats just great. Rifles can hold the line, stopping aggressively rushing infantry and killing stuff when the situation is in their favour. They arent as great for attacks as grens and other elite infantry but they dont have to. They wont win ranged engagments over time if left alone and need support. They can back up assaults and can bring badly planned counterattacks to a grinding end. They do what they were meant to do but were never capable till now. Its a backbone unit. Not more and not less.



Exactly Warhawks, riflemen are indeed the backbone of the US armies now.

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Warhawks97
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Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Mar 2018, 21:32

And where is the exact problem then? Thats what they are supposed to and what description says. They die quick during assaults but can win firefights from time to time under right cirumstances (not ranged combat and better cover if possible). They can hold the line against infantry that attempts to overrun them. Thats what volks do, just they dont start dealing damage at range already, rifles when axis is closing in which is the case during typicall STG attacks.

If you try to attack a prepared enemie squad in cover and probably lmg you would lose your rifles veery fast.

If we make them as before they then wouldnt be able to protected themselves from simply being overruned by stgs even when they would be in a superior position. And thats bullshit. Rangers or even AB would also not overrun volks with lmgs when they would try to attack them over an open field.

Its a combat unit and even US combat units have a right to be more than just a meatshield.

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Henny
Posts: 105
Joined: 02 Aug 2016, 04:30

Re: How to vaporize axis squads (PVP) as americans

Postby Henny » 15 Mar 2018, 22:08

Warhawks97 wrote:And where is the exact problem then? Thats what they are supposed to and what description says. They die quick during assaults but can win firefights from time to time under right cirumstances (not ranged combat and better cover if possible). They can hold the line against infantry that attempts to overrun them. Thats what volks do, just they dont start dealing damage at range already, rifles when axis is closing in which is the case during typicall STG attacks.

If you try to attack a prepared enemie squad in cover and probably lmg you would lose your rifles veery fast.

If we make them as before they then wouldnt be able to protected themselves from simply being overruned by stgs even when they would be in a superior position. And thats bullshit. Rangers or even AB would also not overrun volks with lmgs when they would try to attack them over an open field.

Its a combat unit and even US combat units have a right to be more than just a meatshield.


There is no problem lol, this is just a guide.


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