Super Pershing last stand?

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Tiger1996
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Super Pershing last stand?

Postby Tiger1996 » 13 Feb 2018, 17:22

Axis

Me -> Blitz doctrine.

Powder -> Tank Hunter doctrine.

VS

Allied

Wurf -> Armor doctrine.

The New BK Champion -> RAF doctrine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhIkdGF_74s
SnapShot.jpg
Video Thumbnail


Despite my heavy casualties, we were still able to push our opponents back to base.. but then a Super Pershing appeared, causing havoc and delaying our victory... Replay file attached in the video description.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Super Pershing last stand?

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 Feb 2018, 14:17

I had the time now to watch more of that game.

But a few things i dont get:

1. Why getting tiger?
2. Why did you play literally without spotters. I would never get a tiger without having an idea what my enemie has
3. Why you guys didnt simply continue to get out Panzer IV J´s, Hetzers and 20 mm armed vehicles. Those are just lovely on this map bc you can rush wherever you want. Pumas fast turret rotation makes it to be superioir to any other vehicle on this map. You could have rushed these damn 17 pdrs without that those could have fired a single shot. Recons and light vehicles. Everything else can be done by Panzerschrecks and hidden TD´s.
4. Why using so often that res trade. I mean there was no kind of emergency nor was there "a right moment" where you need a certain unit urgently. Like when i see a moment created in chaos that demands a Panther now (and not one min later) to ultimately finish my opponents. I think that was some sort of miss res managment. For example you could have created chaos with pumas and Tank IV J and ine one certain moment using res trade to quickly get the finisher units.
5. When the SP came and pushed forward, why didnt you just keep attacking the base with your masses of tanks. The SP cant push one side and defend at the same time. Its called binding enemie forces and ressources. You throw away the controle for now reason and fought the threat directly. Furthermore you could have used simple "offensive camp" tactics. Hidding IV/70 or Jagdpanthers, Schreck squads into houses (i mean you had billions of res) or simply double panther that single silly tank. But the best idea both of you got was long range shot and a even slower Jagdtiger. I Jagpanther has a guranteed penetration with AP from ambush and able to oneshot sp. From a range of 75. Additionally IVV70´s could be brought in. And the best units that came to counter SP was to build a unit to which the SP is supposed to be the counter?
6. Try to understand BK as chess game instead of a boxing fight.

At min 35-36: I think this is what ive been saiyng all day long what pisses me off so often. After 20 mins usually axis do simply start bombarding every suspected area. They dont need to have an idea what is where. They simply start bombarding the entire maps. Not bc they have to, bc they fucking can. With their 0 CP, cheap available far reaching arty that is spread over all docs but Luftwaffe. And this kills all the fun. No matter how nice the opening game was with dynamic movments. No matter how good you encountered axis and positioned yourself.... The "map clustering" brings everything back to the initial situation right after game start.

On top of that i was betting all the time that the left side is free so far (just a 17 pdr and single inf squad but 17 pdr moved the other side). I would have got my beloved Puma, perhaps even two and rushing everything. Then following with volks and stug or Panzer IV J of which there could have been dozens already. But nope... lets use arty.

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Re: Super Pershing last stand?

Postby Tiger1996 » 19 Feb 2018, 20:00

I think the Tiger tank was totally worth it in that game, and I was still able to spam Panzer4s as well as Ostwinds, I always bring Tiger1 against Armor.
Also had some Stugs via the off-map support... I lacked spotters, true.. but I felt like there was nothing to spot for anyway. Since I already knew where his stuff were hiding all the time! Though, those Marine Commandos surely wouldn't have been as deadly if I used some spotters.
Lastly, I think the RAF airstrikes were far more deadly than my single Maultier truck though! We lost so much inf cause of these airplanes...

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Warhawks97
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Re: Super Pershing last stand?

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 Feb 2018, 20:45

I would never go tiger when facing armor doc. I prefer to outspam them with tank IV´s. I also switched over to Stug IV since HE rounds work. One good HE and you might have vet 1 and tada, a nice td that counters armor doc. Two of these things and you can almost write gg to armor doc.

Also its always a good thing to have 20 mm puma. Esspecially vs commandos i wouldnt go without. Stacking behind infantry can prevent you from getting slaughtered by commandos. Unless they pick up a zook or schreck there is little they can do against it. Also ostwind.

if anything armor doc can beat, its Tigers. The tiger was a bad choice for many reasons.

1. The map. Little room to maneuver and escape airplanes while in return can get outflanked by these many roads
2. little possibilites to use your range advantage (esspecially ALRS)
3. Lots of ambush chances: TD´s, zooks and even piats can be a great danger on this map
4. Armor doc has jacksons and Pershings. and RAF achilles.
5. Commandos in general are good vs big cats. Lucky that tigers have flank speed.
6. Mines can be devestating. I used mines with TH doc for example on this map with huge success. Same at duclair. The reason is that there are always the same paths vehicles must go. So AT mines have often been my first unlock with TH (and back then RE).

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Re: Super Pershing last stand?

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 Feb 2018, 22:30

Warhawks97 wrote:The map. Little room to maneuver and escape airplanes while in return can get outflanked by these many roads

Surprisingly though, this is one of the very few maps where I have often used the Tiger1 most effectively as far as I recall... I think it's due to the speed bonus that the roads are providing to the Tiger all the time.

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Shanks
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Re: Super Pershing last stand?

Postby Shanks » 21 Feb 2018, 11:10

Warhawks97 wrote:I had the time now to watch more of that game.

But a few things i dont get:

1. Why getting tiger?
2. Why did you play literally without spotters. I would never get a tiger without having an idea what my enemie has
3. Why you guys didnt simply continue to get out Panzer IV J´s, Hetzers and 20 mm armed vehicles. Those are just lovely on this map bc you can rush wherever you want. Pumas fast turret rotation makes it to be superioir to any other vehicle on this map. You could have rushed these damn 17 pdrs without that those could have fired a single shot. Recons and light vehicles. Everything else can be done by Panzerschrecks and hidden TD´s.
4. Why using so often that res trade. I mean there was no kind of emergency nor was there "a right moment" where you need a certain unit urgently. Like when i see a moment created in chaos that demands a Panther now (and not one min later) to ultimately finish my opponents. I think that was some sort of miss res managment. For example you could have created chaos with pumas and Tank IV J and ine one certain moment using res trade to quickly get the finisher units.
5. When the SP came and pushed forward, why didnt you just keep attacking the base with your masses of tanks. The SP cant push one side and defend at the same time. Its called binding enemie forces and ressources. You throw away the controle for now reason and fought the threat directly. Furthermore you could have used simple "offensive camp" tactics. Hidding IV/70 or Jagdpanthers, Schreck squads into houses (i mean you had billions of res) or simply double panther that single silly tank. But the best idea both of you got was long range shot and a even slower Jagdtiger. I Jagpanther has a guranteed penetration with AP from ambush and able to oneshot sp. From a range of 75. Additionally IVV70´s could be brought in. And the best units that came to counter SP was to build a unit to which the SP is supposed to be the counter?
6. Try to understand BK as chess game instead of a boxing fight.

At min 35-36: I think this is what ive been saiyng all day long what pisses me off so often. After 20 mins usually axis do simply start bombarding every suspected area. They dont need to have an idea what is where. They simply start bombarding the entire maps. Not bc they have to, bc they fucking can. With their 0 CP, cheap available far reaching arty that is spread over all docs but Luftwaffe. And this kills all the fun. No matter how nice the opening game was with dynamic movments. No matter how good you encountered axis and positioned yourself.... The "map clustering" brings everything back to the initial situation right after game start.

On top of that i was betting all the time that the left side is free so far (just a 17 pdr and single inf squad but 17 pdr moved the other side). I would have got my beloved Puma, perhaps even two and rushing everything. Then following with volks and stug or Panzer IV J of which there could have been dozens already. But nope... lets use arty.


when are you going to play again? or do you do it with another account?

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Warhawks97
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Re: Super Pershing last stand?

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Feb 2018, 12:41

I am short in time generally. And if i get time to get to a game its then not more than 30-45 mins in a row usually. And i dont want to leave games in case they take longer.

And a major work is ahead of me. A work i wanted to have finished in the past already but got delayed. That will probably take the entire spring.


But these are simple strategic thinkings which havent been changed and wont change unless the game becomes a whole new one with entirely changed ressource system, docs and unit cost etc etc.

Basically its like the reality or reality of ww2. Mobility, reliability, numbers. Thats what matters. And you dont go for the biggest threats head on or against the most powerfull enemie. Let it be a unit or entire army. Attack and fight where this unit or army cant be. Choose the ground where you want to fight. That way you beat every super unit. You dont need head on counters.

And i played a few games in latest versions and i did that.
When my enemie in a game controlled the map and expected to counter my typicall Tank IV roll out and placing everywhere M10´s and heavy AT´s what you think i did? Right, i build two schwimmwagens and detected all ambushes. The M10´s and heavy AT weapons simply didnt hit. All i had to use then was my Volks squad and a stug. Later a cheap Panzer IV. Their guns got revealed and Td´s got revealed and i could make my push. Ive lost several schwimms but on the long hand i won. The enemie failed to build enough vehicles to counter my schwimms and got a jumbo and even pershing later to counter my tank IV. He was still focused on them and considered them to be the main threat. They made all the kills but wouldnt have made any kill without my countless schwimmwagens that provided informations to me. Intel beats single unit strenght. Intelligence and reconassaince beats everything. Its easy as this.

Right now you can use a huge "glitch" (i consider it as one) as axis. Allied heavy AT guns have almost no chance to hit a moving Puma. If they can fire at all due to aim time. Thus double puma will surely overrun any 17 pdr if these are little protected (like by smaller AT guns or whatever). And quite often flanks are weakly protected and AT guns there exposed. Nobody wants a panther rushing a flank, but nobody expecting a Schwimmwagen or Puma doing that.

Axis heavy AT guns are much more effective against moving M20 and greyhound as they suffer less penalties against them so far.
But as allied you should have a mix of AT at least. Thats why i still get small AT sometimes even in late games (axis just need 50 mm everywhere actually and perhaps a heavy AT strong points).

And most fail to see the advanatge of m10. For Them AT guns are favoured bc they are cheap, have more range and so on. But M10 wont get flanked and killed by pumas. You can retreat them in case and build up a new defense line.


That thing with mines is an old lesson from 4.02 version. When kangoroo was unstoppable and CS tetrarch a nuker unit with thick armor. There your only way to win was to get TH doc, place mines on your flanks (So far only Duclair was played with same tactics over and over again with RAF always winning) right from the start. A simple solution.

Today my most important mine gameplay is done with greyhound. And at montherme you can play so nicely with it.

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Re: Super Pershing last stand?

Postby kwok » 22 Feb 2018, 16:16

Warhawks97 wrote:Right now you can use a huge "glitch" (i consider it as one) as axis. Allied heavy AT guns have almost no chance to hit a moving Puma. If they can fire at all due to aim time. Thus double puma will surely overrun any 17 pdr if these are little protected (like by smaller AT guns or whatever). And quite often flanks are weakly protected and AT guns there exposed. Nobody wants a panther rushing a flank, but nobody expecting a Schwimmwagen or Puma doing that.


I brought thsi up to Markr once but Corsix couldn't really prove my suspicion so we chalkd it up to bad luck. But I'm glad I'm not the only one experiencing this "bad luck".

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Re: Super Pershing last stand?

Postby Tiger1996 » 22 Feb 2018, 17:00

I honestly don't see what he is talking about here... I would say that these are nothing rather than just some false "illusions" so far!
For me, all AT guns are just the same.. they can all miss just as much often! I can recall very well some certain occasions when I saw Greyhound or Staghound as well as Jeeps over-running Paks too. The same way, I have seen Pumas and Schwims also doing the same on the other hand.. and I have also seen Axis half-tracks surviving Zookas, but just the same happened with Allied half-tracks surviving Shrecks sometimes as well, nothing is wrong.

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Re: Super Pershing last stand?

Postby Tor » 22 Feb 2018, 18:45

Axis 50mm better vs shermans that 75mm, and vs light vehicles to.
Axis 75mm not enough vs pershing and churchil, so 75mm useless.
Allies 57mm not enough to kill PZ-4H, USA 76mm realy good vs infantry, 17F realy good vs vehicles.
So allies use only 76mm, and axis only 50mm.

And axis half track you can't overrepair and with 95% chance take one bazooka.

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Re: Super Pershing last stand?

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Feb 2018, 23:10

kwok wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:Right now you can use a huge "glitch" (i consider it as one) as axis. Allied heavy AT guns have almost no chance to hit a moving Puma. If they can fire at all due to aim time. Thus double puma will surely overrun any 17 pdr if these are little protected (like by smaller AT guns or whatever). And quite often flanks are weakly protected and AT guns there exposed. Nobody wants a panther rushing a flank, but nobody expecting a Schwimmwagen or Puma doing that.


I brought thsi up to Markr once but Corsix couldn't really prove my suspicion so we chalkd it up to bad luck. But I'm glad I'm not the only one experiencing this "bad luck".


no. you see it in corsix actually. You must have been very blind if you didnt see it.


US 76/17 pdr vs puma has 0.82 accuracy and reduced by further 0.6 modifier when puma is moving.
vs PE vehicles it has acuracy 1 and 0.6 modifier when moving.

Axis 75 mm vs M8 has accuracy 1 and then just 0.8 modifer when greyhound is M8 moving.


Also vs jeeps/schwimm:
US has 0.5 and then 0.6 when moving.
Axis 1 and 0.6 modifier when moving


So its incredible easy to overrun allied heavy AT guns with Pumas and schwimmwagens.
Allied AT guns need cover from vehicles, tanks or other AT guns to not get overruned.


I used that glitch so fucking often. It was not even fun anymore.

Basically, i knew that the heavy AT had less than 50% hit chance from ambush to hit my sdkfz 234 from ambush. In combo with schwimmwagen that reveals it.... you know the result.


I ve been saying it all the time: The 234 vehicle series has been and still is the best vehicle type you can get. Its fast, well armored, has good HP, can be used as aa (20 mm ) and its cheap. And turret rotation for the 20 mm one makes this vehicle extremely well.


Players simply fail to see the most obvious.

@Tiger: Well, i used the 234 with 20 mm always highly aggressive. First i thought its just luck. But since i figured that its not jsut luck but part of the system i started to use that glitch all the time in many games.


But its funny. As ally its a strategic decision whether to get medium or light AT. To get either good anti vehicle and anti stug AT or actually anti tank gun.
As axis AT guns have no real drawbacks. The 50 mm has penetration power to kill any tank, the 75 mm the accuracy to kill any fast vehicle. The only difference are cost, mobility and damage. But both can be used to counter tanks and vehicles. Allies dont have this kind of luxus which is sad.

But its not the first time i am saying this. I mentioned it somewhere already but got apparently forgotten again.


Tiger1996 wrote:I honestly don't see what he is talking about here... I would say that these are nothing rather than just some false "illusions" so far!
For me, all AT guns are just the same.. they can all miss just as much often! I can recall very well some certain occasions when I saw Greyhound or Staghound as well as Jeeps over-running Paks too. The same way, I have seen Pumas and Schwims also doing the same on the other hand.. and I have also seen Axis half-tracks surviving Zookas, but just the same happened with Allied half-tracks surviving Shrecks sometimes as well, nothing is wrong.


Sure, both can happen.... just like M10 bounces a 75 mm AT gun shot (happend to me recently, chance: 5%), Rifle squad with Garand finishes a sdkfz 234, 57 mm pens tiger etc etc etc.

But the probability is that this happens is far higher for axis to overrun AT gun.


Tor wrote:Axis 50mm better vs shermans that 75mm, and vs light vehicles to.
Axis 75mm not enough vs pershing and churchil, so 75mm useless.
Allies 57mm not enough to kill PZ-4H, USA 76mm realy good vs infantry, 17F realy good vs vehicles.
So allies use only 76mm, and axis only 50mm.

And axis half track you can't overrepair and with 95% chance take one bazooka.


basically, yes. except that 17 pdr is good vs vehicles. Its not better than the US 76.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 23 Feb 2018, 01:09, edited 1 time in total.

kwok
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Re: Super Pershing last stand?

Postby kwok » 23 Feb 2018, 00:17

HORRAY FOR WARHAWKS PROVING MY SUSPICION! Oh mighty Markr, will you consider an adjustment now? I've been preachin the power of the puma but felt bad and stopped because I couldn't find the proof on corsix. I guess I am blind.

Thanks hawks, can always count on you finding the hard evidence of things.


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