power of TH!!!!

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Shanks
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power of TH!!!!

Postby Shanks » 04 Feb 2018, 21:29

Well, I mean that EstadoMayor literally won only this game, :lol: , you'll see why, and I learned many things in this game, first: do not abandon your partner until the end of the game, second: do not say "good move or gg" before time , third: nothing is impossible (@ tiger1996 xD), fourth: TH is a wonderful doctrine, has the ability to recover from a great loss quickly, fifth:EstadoMayor, he be surprised you, even though it is a bit rusty ...... .I hope you see this repetition until the end, if you want to comment, I assure you that you will have fun watching it! :lol:

Wurf (armor)+Volksgrenadiers(RA) vs EstadoMayor(TH)+Shaka de Virgo(luft)

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Volksgrenadiers
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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Volksgrenadiers » 04 Feb 2018, 22:20

Well it was good fight but on end we have nothink that will be able to kill that Jagtiger but still GG

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Warhawks97
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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 Feb 2018, 02:14

the early game is very funny. First the double sniper, then the schwimmwagen counter. You destroyed your opponent twice in a row. But funny is that estado got what you may have needed (50 mm AT when sherman came) and you had what estado needed (your fallis did well right after deployment.

But interesting is that wurf also skipped his vehicle phase and didnt build any inf at all. Almost like Tiger in his game.

But as an advise when playing PE. Get 50 mm and Hetzer. Those two units can spare you a lot of pain. I cant remember a game as PE in a long time where i didnt build them. Regardless of the doctrine.

And even TH doc has the capabilties to counter any allied arty except priests perhaps.


At min 18-30: Henschel killed Priest far away from traget location. But where did the other henschel came from that killed recce? There was no vehicle in the designated target location oO.
And a Pershing damaged before it got out of the base. That was the most successfull henschel raid ive seen in a long time.

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Shanks
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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Shanks » 05 Feb 2018, 11:33

@hawks97...I did not realize that the henschel killed the priest, ahahhaahha, but if I know I have to use 50 mm with PE, I actually buy two 50mm, then the hetzer, but in this game, I was pressed by Wurf and Volks, eliminate a rifle squad + rifle boy + rece, then I think I had no recourse for 50 mm, or I did not realize, but anyway, I expected a Hetzer from my partner, since he was TH and when I play with Luft, as maximum use 1 hetzer, normally, I concentrate more on inf, aviation and bring a fast panther

@Volks....yes, GG

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Tiger1996
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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Feb 2018, 03:30

Shanks wrote:Well, I mean that EstadoMayor literally won only this game :lol:

Oh, so EstadoMayor is a pro player now?

I can still remember very well what u said about him on my other "Power of US Armor" replay...
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2535&p=24124#p24117
Shanks wrote:EstadoMayor is my friend, and without offending, I can win him even with my eyes closed practically, it's not new, and it's not because he is a rookie, he's a former player, but he's currently totally out of practice

So, hold on a second.. he was out of practice in the replay I shared, but then suddenly a hero in the replay you share???!!! :?
Actually, I think EstadoMayor in my "US ARMOR" replay has clearly played even better than in your replay here.
I mean that his TH doc performance was also very well demonstrated in my replay too...

If he was really ur friend, why don't u invite him to this topic so he could see the obvious contradictions of what you are saying about him?
I bet you would be ashamed to show him this.

Also, you lost this game by the way... Wurf killed you with his Armor doc, despite that he did soooooooo many mistakes. And after you said "GG" and left the game, I stopped watching.. because I don't consider any final game result when 1 CPU is participating, simply because A.i does not obey the basic game rules over human players.. therefore the later outcome of the game can be ignored as long as 1 player has already surrendered or dropped... So, the Axis team has officially LOST this game.

And of course Hawks didn't mention anything about this here... He went up the roof when I told him that Armor doctrine had the best kill/death ratio in the replay I previously posted, as he said "Srsly? scoreboard means nothing" but here.. he is apparently OK with the outcome of this game despite that 1 player has already surrendered 20 minutes before the game actually ends!!! Though, sadly... I bet he would have probably shouted so loudly about it, only if it was me the one who posted this.. which is honestly a bit of a shame!

Anyway.. the Henschels aren't OP, and Hetzers gain more pen/damage when ambushed.. just like all other TDs in the game, including Allied TDs too.

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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Walderschmidt » 06 Feb 2018, 08:09

Estado did very good here.

Wald

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Tiger1996
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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Feb 2018, 09:55

Yup, of course he did.. actually he played very well on both replays... Though, it's just astonishing how Shanks recently managed to "totally agree" with someone else at calling Estado an "inferior" player on the previous replay... However, now here on this replay it seems that Shanks has suddenly acknowledged that Estado has excelled, despite that the Axis team has lost the game in both replays.. so the result is pretty much the same. Needless to also repeat once again that Estado has definitely played very well at both games.

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Shanks
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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Shanks » 06 Feb 2018, 11:17

Tiger1996 wrote:
Shanks wrote:Well, I mean that EstadoMayor literally won only this game :lol:

Oh, so EstadoMayor is a pro player now?

I can still remember very well what u said about him on my other "Power of US Armor" replay...
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2535&p=24124#p24117
Shanks wrote:EstadoMayor is my friend, and without offending, I can win him even with my eyes closed practically, it's not new, and it's not because he is a rookie, he's a former player, but he's currently totally out of practice

So, hold on a second.. he was out of practice in the replay I shared, but then suddenly a hero in the replay you share???!!! :?
Actually, I think EstadoMayor in my "US ARMOR" replay has clearly played even better than in your replay here.
I mean that his TH doc performance was also very well demonstrated in my replay too...

If he was really ur friend, why don't u invite him to this topic so he could see the obvious contradictions of what you are saying about him?
I bet you would be ashamed to show him this.

Also, you lost this game by the way... Wurf killed you with his Armor doc, despite that he did soooooooo many mistakes. And after you said "GG" and left the game, I stopped watching.. because I don't consider any final game result when 1 CPU is participating, simply because A.i does not obey the basic game rules over human players.. therefore the later outcome of the game can be ignored as long as 1 player has already surrendered or dropped... So, the Axis team has officially LOST this game.

And of course Hawks didn't mention anything about this here... He went up the roof when I told him that Armor doctrine had the best kill/death ratio in the replay I previously posted, as he said "Srsly? scoreboard means nothing" but here.. he is apparently OK with the outcome of this game despite that 1 player has already surrendered 20 minutes before the game actually ends!!! Though, sadly... I bet he would have probably shouted so loudly about it, only if it was me the one who posted this.. which is honestly a bit of a shame!

Anyway.. the Henschels aren't OP, and Hetzers gain more pen/damage when ambushed.. just like all other TDs in the game, including Allied TDs too.




1-I did not say that EstadoMayor is an inferior player, I said that he is "out of practice", and he has not changed his mind, you can see clearly in this repetition how he loses two jagdpanthers sending them to the battle front without using observers vs 17 pdr (with an obvious result, the jagdpanther destroyed), is more, I told the same EdtadoMayor, and also pass the address to the forum, to see this post, he is in the forum ... 2-You make me laugh What did Wurf win? without being "arrogant", Wurf lost at the beginning of the game, then came in my area, Volks troops, who also completely destroyed (Rece + Riflemen + rifle boy), and I could not make my 50 mm on time, but I went able to destroy the first Sherman, then came the EstadoMayor Hetzer to help me (it corresponded to him, because he was TH, BK is a cooperative game), and also many times the troops of Volks came into my zone...3- If I'm not mistaken, I destroyed 1 Sherman, 2 Pershing, 2 Hellcat ... it seems a little? ... 4-This game is "GG", because no matter how much it has been abandoned, EstadoMayor was the winner, 5 minutes later, and the AI ​​did not do anything to help him !, that's why I said "I literally win alone, with the powerful TH", and it's true


I would recommend you to see the repetition again, and to watch carefully, all my movements (they did not defeat me, as you say), and those of EstadoMayor (he is out of practice, but he can beat )

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Tiger1996
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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Feb 2018, 11:44

You did not directly tell that Estado is "inferior" player, but you agreed with "Devilfish" when he stated that the game I shared was against inferior opponents.. which eventually means that you AGREE with him that both my opponents in that game (Estado & Volks) were "inferior" players...
Everyone can go back to the previous replay and see what you posted... viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2535&p=24124#p24115 It's just so obvious.

Estado won this game here alone, true.. but the Axis team LOST the game! That's when you surrendered, as you left the game after almost losing all your units in the base... If you didn't surrender too early, the Axis team would have been considered winner!
So you just can't post a game where you lose, and then claim that you win.. your mate did everything alone AFTER you surrendered, but your team has already LOST once you have left your team-mate behind when u surrendered.

You post this as PvP game.. but when you surrender, then it's not PvP anymore...

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Warhawks97
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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Feb 2018, 15:02

Checking res etc i wouldnt say allis won that. No matter if shanks had left or not, the Jagdtiger made it. Just shanks didnt know perhaps that JT is coming.

All sides made many mistakes and in both games armor doc hasnt been played well or at least correctly adjusted. Going for the most expensive shit armor doc gets is nonsense simply bc the armor thickness doesnt count. There is no tank US has at its disposal that cant be killed by a Hetzer:

Warhawks97 wrote:
The Hetzer has a 26,061% chance to penetrate the Jumbo without using AP rounds or ambush at max range. Against the Pershing its a 20,02% chance.
So every fourth hit is actually a penetrating one. And this is shared by so far every axis 75 mm L/48 gun (Means tank IV´s as well).

From ambush these values are doubled. So It has a 52,122% chance to pen jumbo and 40,04 to pen pershing. With AP rounds this is boosted to 69,32226% and 53,2532. The damage of a Hetzer with ambush (50%) and AP (25%) damage boost is 750 (min) - 1125 (max). Pershing has 1000 HP.

So here you have the reasons why the Hetzer can kill any US armor very well. Its related to the doubled pen damage most TD´s get. Only M36 gets just a 50% damage boost. If both, jacks and Hetzer use AP during ambush, the max damage of the Hetzer is higher than that of the Jackson. IIrc Nashorn does also not gain any damage or penetration boost, thus being basically "the worst" axis ambush TD (which is funny since its sole purpose is to fire from ambush).



Thats why going for pershing and jumbo against def doc or TH is utter bullshit. You go way better by not allowing them to advance (hidding AT guns, using anti inf vehicles, recons, snipers and lots of cheap sherman stuff to keep them busy) and to keep harrasing them. Esspecially in a RA, Armor combo that makes much more sense then rushing with pershings into hetzers and other stuff when RA can bomb them out.

Tiger1996 wrote:And of course Hawks didn't mention anything about this here... He went up the roof when I told him that Armor doctrine had the best kill/death ratio in the replay I previously posted, as he said "Srsly? scoreboard means nothing" but here.. he is apparently OK with the outcome of this game despite that 1 player has already surrendered 20 minutes before the game actually ends!!! Though, sadly... I bet he would have probably shouted so loudly about it, only if it was me the one who posted this.. which is honestly a bit of a shame!




Neither you tiger nor wurf has made any attempt to combine vehicles with rifle squads, perhaps mortars (the small one using smoke can be usefull as well) to outplay the less flexible PE (in terms of numbers and unit diversity fielded at once). You just made only snipers and then jumping directly towards pershings.

Luft made errors (the typciall luft player error) by nonstop blobbing and reinforcing luft inf. That led to a bleedout in the long term that could have been used by wurf to a greater extend by expanding his vehicle and sherman fleet. 50 mm, own hetzer and less blobbing could have saved many lifes and ressources. So ammount of invested ressources in relation to destroyed res was perhaps negativ for shanks.

In Tigers game Axis made huge strategic errors. They should have known that US cant beat cheap camping. Which means using cheap defensives units and own arty early on instead going for the most expensive. But thats a standard axis error here.


In both games we saw the potential of inf doc, RA doc and TH doc (and to some extend of the luft doc when taking the henschel strike into acc which again could have been prevented by a few bofors). Those made the decisive strikes (long tom, priest, planes, TD´s) or simply made an heroic last stand (Jagdtiger). But in non was anything visible about the "Mighty armor doc". Neither as a whole nor anything 76 sherman related which is suppsoed to be "its core". The malfunction of armor doc and US armor in general (and more particular for 76 shermans) became obvious. Though i admit that perhaps the 76 would have performed better in this case.

So i dont care about the outcome at the end. In both cases the Jagdtiger has shown how much it can absorb from any damage source (due to armor, HP, low received damage). At the other hand we saw how vulnerable armor is and even more how (76) shermans are "non-existent". Either not fielded at all or they are just "ghosts" or a just a breeze between hurricanes and tornados.


Tiger1996 wrote:
Anyway.. the Henschels aren't OP, and Hetzers gain more pen/damage when ambushed.. just like all other TDs in the game, including Allied TDs too.



Not all. Nashorn has as it seems no pen or damage boost at all and just one ambushed shot. Idk why the Jagdpanther has so much better ambush stats although its already much better in open battles than nashorn.

Jackson is still the very worst. It has much weaker damage and pen boosts and is the only of all TD that does not gain a range boost. When using AP the Jackson is the wors in terms of damage. Even a M18 and m10 deals more damage in an ambush. the Achilles bypasses it by far.
On top, the jacks has received an weaker armor in latest version.

The other "TD" gaining less boosts is the stug IV but its not a fully supposed TD at the other hand.

Oh, and allis tds do not gain accuracy boosts from ambush (but in return have got higher basic accuracy which is has high as panthers accuracy).

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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Tor » 06 Feb 2018, 15:47

Imagine Achiiles and M36 in one doc, who want buy M36? something wrong here.
No HE, no panther oneshot, no free flank speed and this cost...

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Shanks
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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Shanks » 06 Feb 2018, 17:10

Tiger1996 wrote:You did not directly tell that Estado is "inferior" player, but you agreed with "Devilfish" when he stated that the game I shared was against inferior opponents.. which eventually means that you AGREE with him that both my opponents in that game (Estado & Volks) were "inferior" players...
Everyone can go back to the previous replay and see what you posted... viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2535&p=24124#p24115 It's just so obvious.

Estado won this game here alone, true.. but the Axis team LOST the game! That's when you surrendered, as you left the game after almost losing all your units in the base... If you didn't surrender too early, the Axis team would have been considered winner!
So you just can't post a game where you lose, and then claim that you win.. your mate did everything alone AFTER you surrendered, but your team has already LOST once you have left your team-mate behind when u surrendered.

You post this as PvP game.. but when you surrender, then it's not PvP anymore...




Apparently you misunderstood me ... could you reread everything I wrote previously? ... I also left the game because I thought my partner did not have anything anymore, and he did not tell me that the jagdtiger was coming. of everything that happened, with this repetition I just wanted to "highlight", as the jagdtiger could easily kill 2 pershing, and the "SP" with the help of the stuka "just so that it does not escape", and this caused that EstadoMayor won 5 minutes after I left, I just wanted to show this repetition for entertainment, in this way you can see how "TH" is able to recover from big losses and make you win a game vs 2 players, without a partner and without the help of the AI! , so it's "GG".......also this post is addressed to all those people who say that the tanks "AXIS" have paper armor :D

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Tiger1996
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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Feb 2018, 18:40

Shanks wrote:I just wanted to show this repetition for entertainment, in this way you can see how "TH" is able to recover from big losses and make you win a game vs 2 players, without a partner and without the help of the AI! , so it's "GG".......also this post is addressed to all those people who say that the tanks "AXIS" have paper armor :D

Hahaha, imitating my words here? Ok :D
Though, I think it's you who misunderstood me in the very first place.. my whole point was how you tried to deny the "US Armor" replay claiming that my opponents were not good enough or whatnot... While you have now acknowledged in ur replay that these "same" players are suddenly good enough!
Which is weird. All this despite that I was very clear from the start, as I haven't uploaded my replay in order to claim that Axis tanks have paper armor or whatever. Since I believe that overall the game is fairly balanced currently and so I have pointed no balance issues on my replay in the first place.

Well, anyway though.. after all it's still good for people to see various examples for different things... ;)


@Hawks
Alright, I guess I get your point now.. but you seem so obsessed about using "cheap" stuff rather than expensive ones... I mean, perhaps it's less risky for sure and could have been a better choice too.. but the game isn't always fun without some expensive units running around, actually.. some players feel more satisfied when playing with expensive units as they are more difficult to maintain, which leads to more competitive feelings for the player who is using them. That's why expensive units should always have some important role in the game.

@Tor
Yes, you are right... Achilles have way more advantages over Jackson.. but in my opinion I think the Jackson is fine, as I believe it's the Achilles which needs to be tweaked on the other hand, as it should have less advantages in the future.

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Shanks
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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Shanks » 06 Feb 2018, 19:34

Tiger1996 wrote:
Shanks wrote:I just wanted to show this repetition for entertainment, in this way you can see how "TH" is able to recover from big losses and make you win a game vs 2 players, without a partner and without the help of the AI! , so it's "GG".......also this post is addressed to all those people who say that the tanks "AXIS" have paper armor :D

Hahaha, imitating my words here? Ok :D
Though, I think it's you who misunderstood me in the very first place.. my whole point was how you tried to deny the "US Armor" replay claiming that my opponents were not good enough or whatnot... While you have now acknowledged in ur replay that these "same" players are suddenly good enough!
Which is weird. All this despite that I was very clear from the start, as I haven't uploaded my replay in order to claim that Axis tanks have paper armor or whatever. Since I believe that overall the game is fairly balanced currently and so I have pointed no balance issues on my replay in the first place.

Well, anyway though.. after all it's still good for people to see various examples for different things... ;)


I like happy endings! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Feb 2018, 21:06

Tiger1996 wrote:

@Hawks
Alright, I guess I get your point now.. but you seem so obsessed about using "cheap" stuff rather than expensive ones... I mean, perhaps it's less risky for sure and could have been a better choice too.. but the game isn't always fun without some expensive units running around, actually.. some players feel more satisfied when playing with expensive units as they are more difficult to maintain, which leads to more competitive feelings for the player who is using them. That's why expensive units should always have some important role in the game.


Well. Expensive stuff never played a role in my games or my long term thinking. The most expensive unit ive got so far has been the Panther. But Tigers, Pershings, etc.... i never got them. Or i did but they never played a role or had any impact. They couldnt do that i couldnt have done with others.

Its not that i am simply running for cheap stuff bc its cheap. Its bc mostly its the more cost effective way and less risky (cost sharing). The reality is just proving the same. If you go too big (first rate ships, battleships, british tanks in ww1, german late war models of ww2, german super guns and whatsnot) you fail. There are just veeery few situations and moments when the big shit was too big for the enemie. But usually a cheap counter is developed soon.
That doesnt mean that going only for the cheapest makes you winning for sure. It needs to be cheap but still good and esspecially good in what its supposed to do.

And here is my critic for US or now rather armor doc in particular. The cheap stuff is so bad that even the number "endless" wouldnt be enough to express the ammount required to be successfull. And thats the case with shermans (76 in particular but also for the basic one).

Armor doc has the problem that the cheap stuff is so bad that it would barely work even if it would cost almost nothing. Or its expensive and still shit. For example Jumbo and Pershing. I am not expecting from them to be able to stand the biggest 88. But the issue is that they get killed extremely easily by cheapest stuff axis can get. Volksgrens with faust, relatively cheap arty etc.

The Pershing has at least firepower. The Jumbo as still quite easily destroyed by the most standard axis AT guns and thus in particular hetzer. I would expect its armor and protection to be somewhat that of churchills. Better than the basic one, slightly below the crocc.

The shermans are (super) cheap (armor doc) but still too bad for the cost. They wouldnt work even for cheap bc they are so bad which is issue number one. And for the current cost (and required upgrades) tooooo bad. Killed too easily by the first real AT gun that hits the field and their offensive so bad.... i could send ants.

The Tank IV is cheap but simply good. Its armor is sufficient, is superior to the counterparts and has a rate of fire that enables me to fight even multiple targets and making it superb as an anti vehicle support for your infantry.


@Tor
Yes, you are right... Achilles have way more advantages over Jackson.. but in my opinion I think the Jackson is fine, as I believe it's the Achilles which needs to be tweaked on the other hand, as it should have less advantages in the future.



Way more? A lot more. From ambush and AP its the damage, the range, flank speed. And always existent is rate of fire (by far) and the HE shots as well as the cost.

If it comes to "what is the best TD" its definately the Hetzer and Achilles. Nothing can top them.

The Jacks a is not fine. It needs the same range boost (+5) like all other alli tds have it (axis have + 10 usually). When the engine upgrade is in i dont see a reason why it should not have flank speed after shot. Esspecially since its HE shots have been removed and armor weakned. It just cant keep sitting there like a duck anymore and shoot back. Its role and gameplay does not differ anymore from other allied TD´s.

And last but not least it needs similiar pen/damage boosts. Its silly that the supposed weaker TD´s have better damage values.

The damage increasing armor piercing shots is another thing that bugs me for ages already. esspecially from ambush the damage added by that is almost ridiulous. A standard shot with max 600 damage gets up as high as 900 alone from ambush and up to 1125 with AP. A Hetzer does not even need to trigger the "ultimate crit" which there is the istant death. A simple max damage role is enough to oneshot a pershing.



Regarding the achilles but also Hetzer. I am not sure how to "tweak" them in future. I can imagine a slight price increase for the achilles. But idk how it would affect the overall brits gameplay since everything they have is expensive. Slightly increased reload time perhaps? Perhaps the simple removal of damage boosts to AP rounds would fix many issues? As for the Hetzer: It does not need the flank speed. Even though the name "Hetzer" (Hetzjagd is a term used in germany: chivvy in english) would suggest it, its not its role. The HP could possibly go down to 550 HP. Its a light and small tank. The 75 mm could be tweaked against jumbos. I think its too good against them with every fourth standard shot penetrating it.

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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Shanks » 06 Feb 2018, 21:36

@hawks...I really think that Jumbo is not the same as before, I was using armor doc, and it became relatively stronger, you should try it now, play a pvp and you will see, but it depends a lot on other doctrines, only that needs to be improved, i think

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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Feb 2018, 22:25

Shanks wrote:@hawks...I really think that Jumbo is not the same as before, I was using armor doc, and it became relatively stronger, you should try it now, play a pvp and you will see, but it depends a lot on other doctrines, only that needs to be improved, i think


i know its got stronger :D

Before i ate a jumbo with tank IV´s. Basically both had approx the same chance to pen each other. Now just every fourth shot pens the jumbo. I saw it all, tested it + i tested arround a lot by myself and made test games:D

But as you said, relatively stronger, yes. It doesnt change that fact that it doesnt really do its main job: beating defenses that consist only of standard 75 mm guns.

So:

Battlestrenght: Increased
Doing the supposed role: Slightly better but far from "doing its job".

We can argue arround now:
Shall it be worse than churchill armor wise? Yes bc it comes so early (inf doc). Yes its more mobile. No bc it comes late (armor doc), No bc it cant do its actual job. Its just an slightly better sherman and so on.
Shall it even be a breakthrough tank like a churchill? Yes, bc that was it purpose. No, bc we dont need reality in bk. No, bc its job is an supportive one. No, bc inf doc has arty already and other tools to get through defenses. Yes, bc Armor doc has little to overcome standard defenses and so on.

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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Devilfish » 06 Feb 2018, 23:26

Dear friend Tiger,

Word "inferior" means that Estado's skill is of lower quality compared to yours.
Thus, Estado is an inferior player to you and Volks is an inferior player to Powder.
For more information, please refer to: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/inferior

With love,
your Dunham.
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"

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Shanks
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Re: power of TH!!!!

Postby Shanks » 06 Feb 2018, 23:31

Warhawks97 wrote:
Shanks wrote:@hawks...I really think that Jumbo is not the same as before, I was using armor doc, and it became relatively stronger, you should try it now, play a pvp and you will see, but it depends a lot on other doctrines, only that needs to be improved, i think


i know its got stronger :D

Before i ate a jumbo with tank IV´s. Basically both had approx the same chance to pen each other. Now just every fourth shot pens the jumbo. I saw it all, tested it + i tested arround a lot by myself and made test games:D

But as you said, relatively stronger, yes. It doesnt change that fact that it doesnt really do its main job: beating defenses that consist only of standard 75 mm guns.

So:

Battlestrenght: Increased
Doing the supposed role: Slightly better but far from "doing its job".

We can argue arround now:
Shall it be worse than churchill armor wise? Yes bc it comes so early (inf doc). Yes its more mobile. No bc it comes late (armor doc), No bc it cant do its actual job. Its just an slightly better sherman and so on.
Shall it even be a breakthrough tank like a churchill? Yes, bc that was it purpose. No, bc we dont need reality in bk. No, bc its job is an supportive one. No, bc inf doc has arty already and other tools to get through defenses. Yes, bc Armor doc has little to overcome standard defenses and so on.



for me it's okay, for now the doctrine of armor ..... the bad, is that you need a good partner in most cases in pvp, the armor doctrine is possibly the most difficult to use in BK, now same......on the other hand, I like the idea that once the SP is destroyed, the AS Pershing can come, as a substitute, I hope that the idea is accepted and updated soon! This would give you hope again in pvp


@Devilfish....The best :lol:


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