Power of US Armor!

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Tiger1996
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Power of US Armor!

Postby Tiger1996 » 03 Feb 2018, 15:50

Allied:

Me -> Armor doctrine.

Powder -> infantry doctrine.

VS

Axis:

Volks -> Defensive doctrine.

EstadoMayor -> Tank Hunter doctrine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYLxzywu8I4
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Armor doctrine being used at its full potential, replay file download link also attached in the video description.. enjoy!

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Kr0noZ
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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Kr0noZ » 03 Feb 2018, 16:42

Well, that Schwimmwagen was painful xD
Also, that one bunker you didn't bust for ages...
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Engineers believe... if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet."
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Warhawks97
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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Warhawks97 » 03 Feb 2018, 17:48

thats why i always have some vehicles... m20, greyhound, m16... exactly to prevent stuff as this schwimmwagen action.
But its not that this action was "just extrem luck". I frequently used schwimmwagens (best when in pair with a 20 mm puma) to overcome defenses including AT guns. Spamming schwimms and using them aggressively is very effective. Esspecially when combined with vehicles and tanks. I managed to overcome defenses of multiple M10´s simply as they got revealed by schwimm and/or failed to hit it. The following stug or tank IV could kill the revealed M10.

The only real way to protect yourself against such tactics are vehicles placed arround the AT guns. Usually M16 or stuff with high rof in order to kill the schwimms quickly.

What your mate did few mins later (15:20) with the greyhound is a good example why vehicles and their current behaviour (speeking of kwoks suggested acceleration of vehicles etc) is so important. This is how you prevent yourself as US player to get camped and bombed into dust: Use vehicles early on and make some crazy moves to overcome axis players that are about to prepare for heavy camping.
However, i wonder why non of theses "pros" had any counter vehicle (any type of sdkfz 234 or 222 with 28 mm "Panzerbüchse").

I also wonder why you didnt just finish the game when they greyhound caused the chaos. Chaos is your best friend. Throwing out shermans and M20 to reveal all the hidden crap. That game could have ended after 19 mins.
Perhaps even double M20 action when enemie has no vehicles at all. It works better as a bunch of shermans, at least against static defenses.
That then paired with vehicle capture inlock instead of calli unlock to quickly capture the ground following push.


min 22: untill now the only offensive unit has been a recon and snipers. Idk how this is "epic armor". Also up to now all what happend was upgrading and upgrading stuff after stuff. Sparing few res here and you could have thrown the enemie on your mates side back to their base. Just 2 shermans and a vehicle. One more wasted chance.


Min 23: A schwimmwagen broke the defenses. Call the Pershings now.

Min 26 onward: A single Jagdpanzer IV/70 almost beaten the mighty armor singlehanded.


Min 36 onwards: Funny, the greatest defender of the opinion that 76 shermans are soooo Str0nK does not field a single one. Let me guess? Bc they suck? The first assault performed by pershings. Probably bc 76 shermans would have been tooo unfairly strong. I currently cant hold myself laughing here in front of my pc :D
Although this was the most suuited situation for extensive sherman spam (bc enemies had no big cats, only small stuff with big guns) the 76 seem to be not worthy to get.


Min 37: Omg. Haha. There comes the useless elephant and the entire doctrine turns arround in the doorstep. This is a cartoon isnt it? :D
Just this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgyZxQf3Ih4

In this situation even a bunch of shermans with tank commander and arty barrage would have done better.

Min 40: "The Power of the Infantry doctrine"
Suggesting a name change here.

41: 05: "This spam"
Which spam? He just wasted lots of his stuff+ he used only the most expensive. Why he didnt just spam volks, 105 howitzer pits and 88´s? He would have outgunned inf doc player + the single long tom strike wouldnt have hurt that much. But this happens when your entire strategy is based on two "super killer units". Perhaps he can play BK doc if he likes to spam. There he can outspam the omfg spammy US.

At 1 hour and 5 mins: This super vulnerability of axis tanks. Its really a shame. :roll: Such a barrage would have killed an ammount of allis tanks. But it doesnt kill a 40% HP immobilized cat. Not even a scratch as it seems.
When a ST (or grille or def doc off map rocket strike or hotchkiss or walking stuka or hummel shell) kills a pershing almost outright or several pershings from miles away (or 2-3 hits for stuka etc) its "buisness as usual". But when a off map arty strike that requires a tank, tank commander and the need to get as close as 75 distance to call a 85 ammo arty strike does not kill a tank that has less than 50% HP left.... well... then its ..... Whats wrong with that?
Perhaps i suggest to increase the activation range of the arty strike from tank commanders to be 200 as well and long tom like. And no vision required. :roll:

The ammount of arty and spend ammo by two players just to try to kill such a low HP tank would have been enough to destroy multiple Super Pershings...

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Shanks
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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Shanks » 03 Feb 2018, 19:23

:shock:

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Tiger1996 » 03 Feb 2018, 20:25

Hawks, I'm not surprised how you choose to analysis this... I think you did the same in the past too, it looks like you don't want to admit any successful moments for Armor doctrine, despite that it's undeniable how Axis lost this game so badly, the superiority of Armor doctrine was so obvious though, u can't deny it.. even if you choose to ignore what your eyes have seen.
I mean.. let's take a look at what you say here for example;
Warhawks97 wrote:At 1 hour and 5 mins: This super vulnerability of axis tanks. Its really a shame. :roll: Such a barrage would have killed an ammount of allis tanks. But it doesnt kill a 40% HP immobilized cat. Not even a scratch as it seems.
When a ST (or grille or def doc off map rocket strike or hotchkiss or walking stuka or hummel shell) kills a pershing almost outright or several pershings from miles away (or 2-3 hits for stuka etc) its "buisness as usual".

You point out how 1 Axis tank (the JagdTiger) survived arty hits for too long while being immobilized, but at the same time.. for some reasons you COMPLETELY IGNORED how a total of 2 Hetzers, 2 JagdPanthers, as well as 1 Elephant in addition to JagdPanzer L/70 were all SMASHED only thanks to US arty as well as sticky bombs during this game!
You can also check the replay file if u would like to validate.. then u will be able to obviously see how most of their tanks were actually killed only with arty right away or after being first immobilized with stickies, and even without much struggle.. all of their other tanks (except the JagdTiger) were quite easy to hunt in this very classical way...

Also, you keep trying to refute the power of Armor doctrine while once AGAIN choosing DELIBERATELY to just IGNORE how the Grille actually did ZERO DAMAGE to the Calliope Sherman more than SIX TIMES despite scoring a direct hit each time! That's 300 ammo wasted by the way... I really wonder why you have not mentioned a single word about that! So how do you explain this? For me, I'm afraid it sounds like BIAS, but I hope I am wrong.

Warhawks97 wrote:Min 40: "The Power of the Infantry doctrine"
Suggesting a name change here.

By looking at the scoreboard menu at the end of the video, then I guess you can see that the "kills/losses" ratio of Armor doctrine was clearly the best.

Warhawks97 wrote:Min 37: Omg. Haha. There comes the useless elephant and the entire doctrine turns arround in the doorstep. This is a cartoon isnt it? :D
Just this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgyZxQf3Ih4

I drove backward just for repairs... Also, i just wanted him to come closer to my TDs so I could ambush him more safely.
And yes, the Elefant was extremely useless.. as always! VERY SLOW, and short range. 2 Elefants scored ZERO kills throughout this game, 1st one instantly died by Long Tom right away, and 2nd one was killed by the SP so easily, after all the SP was vet.3 until the JagdTiger later killed it.. but it was too late, as I quickly managed to flood the area with many jacksons everywhere!
Thanks to the supply yard upgrades, as I wasn't suffering any fuel at this late stage of the game.

Warhawks97 wrote:Min 36 onwards: Funny, the greatest defender of the opinion that 76 shermans are soooo Str0nK does not field a single one. Let me guess? Bc they suck? The first assault performed by pershings. Probably bc 76 shermans would have been tooo unfairly strong. I currently cant hold myself laughing here in front of my pc :D
Although this was the most suuited situation for extensive sherman spam (bc enemies had no big cats, only small stuff with big guns) the 76 seem to be not worthy to get.

Why should I use 76 Shermans against Defensive and Tank Hunter doctrines??? if you think they are worthy to obtain against those 2 doctrines.. then there is no wonder how you always think they are useless... 76 Shermans are best used against Blitz and Terror doctrines, specifically when combined with Jacksons early on.


Lastly, I would rather suggest you not to type your review on any replay before you finish watching it until the end first.. because typing your reactions on each and every single moment you are watching - without first knowing the final outcome of the game - would only make most of what you say sound so irrelevant. As you should always keep into consideration the final result of the game before you type anything!

Kr0noZ wrote:Well, that Schwimmwagen was painful xD
Also, that one bunker you didn't bust for ages...

Ya :D Such things happen only when the RNG god is not on your side :mrgreen:
About the Bunker, actually it wasn't any annoying to me.. because I use tanks, not infantry! However, I still had to clear it out so that my team-mate could support with his infantry.

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Devilfish
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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Devilfish » 03 Feb 2018, 20:32

1. Dominate inferior players in 10-20 minutes
2. Artificially stretch the game and hoard units
3. Let the choleric and whiny opponents do the talking
4. Post it to community to prove a point
5. Profit

Ah, good old buddy Tiger.
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Tiger1996 » 03 Feb 2018, 20:33

Oh, look who is back after nearly 1 year of absence on the forum.. so constructive post I see! :D

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Devilfish » 03 Feb 2018, 20:35

Just for you baby :)
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"

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Shanks
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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Shanks » 03 Feb 2018, 20:36

Tiger1996 wrote:Hawks, I'm not surprised how you choose to analysis this... I think you did the same in the past too, it looks like you don't want to admit any successful moments for Armor doctrine, despite that it's undeniable how Axis lost this game so badly, the superiority of Armor doctrine was so obvious though, u can't deny it.. even if you choose to ignore what your eyes have seen.
I mean.. let's take a look at what you say here for example;
Warhawks97 wrote:At 1 hour and 5 mins: This super vulnerability of axis tanks. Its really a shame. :roll: Such a barrage would have killed an ammount of allis tanks. But it doesnt kill a 40% HP immobilized cat. Not even a scratch as it seems.
When a ST (or grille or def doc off map rocket strike or hotchkiss or walking stuka or hummel shell) kills a pershing almost outright or several pershings from miles away (or 2-3 hits for stuka etc) its "buisness as usual".

You point out how 1 Axis tank (the JagdTiger) survived arty hits for too long while being immobilized, but at the same time.. for some reasons you COMPLETELY IGNORED how a total of 2 Hetzers, 2 JagdPanthers, as well as 1 Elephant in addition to JagdPanzer L/70 were all SMASHED only thanks to US arty as well as sticky bombs during this game!
You can also check the replay file if u would like to validate.. then u will be able to obviously see how most of their tanks were actually killed only with arty right away or after being first immobilized with stickies, and even without much struggle.. all of their other tanks (except the JagdTiger) were quite easy to hunt in this very classical way...

Also, you keep trying to refute the power of Armor doctrine while once AGAIN choosing DELIBERATELY to just IGNORE how the Grille actually did ZERO DAMAGE to the Calliope Sherman more than SIX TIMES despite scoring a direct hit each time! That's 300 ammo wasted by the way... I really wonder why you have not mentioned a single word about that! So how do you explain this? For me, I'm afraid it sounds like BIAS, but I hope I am wrong.

Warhawks97 wrote:Min 40: "The Power of the Infantry doctrine"
Suggesting a name change here.

By looking at the scoreboard menu at the end of the video, then I guess you can see that the "kills/losses" ratio of Armor doctrine was clearly the best.

Warhawks97 wrote:Min 37: Omg. Haha. There comes the useless elephant and the entire doctrine turns arround in the doorstep. This is a cartoon isnt it? :D
Just this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgyZxQf3Ih4

I drove backward just for repairs... Also, i just wanted him to come closer to my TDs so I could ambush him more safely.
And yes, the Elefant was extremely useless.. as always! VERY SLOW, and short range. 2 Elefants scored ZERO kills throughout this game, 1st one instantly died by Long Tom right away, and 2nd one was killed by the SP so easily, after all the SP was vet.3 until the JagdTiger later killed it.. but it was too late, as I quickly managed to flood the area with many jacksons everywhere!
Thanks to the supply yard upgrades, as I wasn't suffering any fuel at this late stage of the game.

Warhawks97 wrote:Min 36 onwards: Funny, the greatest defender of the opinion that 76 shermans are soooo Str0nK does not field a single one. Let me guess? Bc they suck? The first assault performed by pershings. Probably bc 76 shermans would have been tooo unfairly strong. I currently cant hold myself laughing here in front of my pc :D
Although this was the most suuited situation for extensive sherman spam (bc enemies had no big cats, only small stuff with big guns) the 76 seem to be not worthy to get.

Why should I use 76 Shermans against Defensive and Tank Hunter doctrines??? if you think they are worthy to obtain against those 2 doctrines.. then there is no wonder how you always think they are useless... 76 Shermans are best used against Blitz and Terror doctrines, specifically when combined with Jacksons early on.


Lastly, I would rather suggest you not to type your review on any replay before you finish watching it until the end first.. because typing your reactions on each and every single moment you are watching - without first knowing the final outcome of the game - would only make most of what you say sound so irrelevant. As you should always keep into consideration the final result of the game before you type anything!

Kr0noZ wrote:Well, that Schwimmwagen was painful xD
Also, that one bunker you didn't bust for ages...

Ya :D Such things happen only when the RNG god is not on your side :mrgreen:
About the Bunker, actually it wasn't any annoying to me.. because I use tanks, not infantry! However, I still had to clear it out so that my team-mate could support with his infantry.


do not tell me that with this repetition you want nerf to armor doc ..... is that so? ... I would appreciate it if you answered, so we will have a little talk here 8-)

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Tiger1996 » 03 Feb 2018, 20:37

No, of course i am not hoping for a nerf to Armor doctrine.. this is not my intent.
For me the game is balanced on both sides currently, Axis and Allies... And so, I'm only trying to prove that nothing need to change! ;)

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Shanks » 03 Feb 2018, 20:55

Devilfish wrote:1. Dominate inferior players in 10-20 minutes
2. Artificially stretch the game and hoard units
3. Let the choleric and whiny opponents do the talking
4. Post it to community to prove a point
5. Profit

Ah, good old buddy Tiger.


totally true

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Tiger1996 » 03 Feb 2018, 21:55

1. Dominate inferior players in 10-20 minutes

The very first point is already false, so I can't see any truth in it! Both opponent players on this replay (EstadoMayor & Volks) are actually older Bk players than I am... And I bet those same 2 players are actually better than those who call them "inferior" too.. while those who claim that they are "inferior" are in fact rarely seen on the lobby themselves, if ever at all.
I would suggest everyone to be more respectful when speaking about other old players...

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Shanks » 03 Feb 2018, 22:11

Tiger1996 wrote:
1. Dominate inferior players in 10-20 minutes

The very first point is already false, so I can't see any truth in it! Both opponent players on this replay (EstadoMayor & Volks) are actually older Bk players than I am... And I bet those same 2 players are actually better than those who call them "inferior" too.. while those who claim that they are "inferior" are in fact rarely seen on the lobby themselves, if ever at all.
I would suggest everyone to be more respectful when speaking about other old players...



EstadoMayor is my friend, and without offending, I can win him even with my eyes closed practically, it's not new, and it's not because he is a rookie, he's a former player, but he's currently totally out of practice ... regarding this repetition, I can upload another one where my friend uses BK doc, and only with medium tanks we won the game, died pershings, SP and many shermans, vs professional players ..... do you want to see it ???

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Tiger1996 » 03 Feb 2018, 22:30

I doubt that you can win against EstadoMayor with your eyes closed, it looks like you are so confident though.. but also a bit arrogant when u say that!
Regardless, I think this is something that EstadoMayor himself would be more rightful to respond, as I can't really react to this on his behalf... Though, I hope he was here on this forum so he could respond you! However, I would advice you not to underestimate him.

Nonetheless, we are not here to speak about who is a better player or who is worse.. clearly, the intent of uploading this video was very simple...
It's only for entertainment! As I believe it was a fun game with Armor doctrine, and so I decided to share it! That's all.

For some reason though, Hawks came up with his analysis.. which is more about saying "Armor doc sucks" even when Armor doc is clearly winning!
Despite that I have not even addressed any balance concern when I posted this here in the first place.

Anyway.. let me guess which replay you are talking about, do you mean our last 3v3 game which we have played together on the map "Road To Cherbourg" yesterday?? If yes, then you should actually know that this particular game will be the next one to upload from my side by the way.

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 03 Feb 2018, 22:33

Tiger, lets be honest, this replay wasnt a best rerpresantation of "armor" doc.
Its not used "at its full potential", not nearly.
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Tiger1996 » 03 Feb 2018, 22:42

Well, I never said it's the "best representation" of Armor doc, neither did I ever say that it's the "best" example!
I only said it's still a "great example" which isn't false, because after all the game was quite competitive and long.. also with some rapid attacks in which tanks had kept going back and forth.

However, when I said "Armor doc being used at its full potential" then I just meant that a lot of the tools that are provided by this doctrine were used throughout this single game... Pershings, Super Pershing, Scotts, Jacksons, Hellcats, 75mm Shermans... All these units were seen in combat!
Only 76 Shermans were missing, but for an obvious reason.

So, when saying "in its full potential" doesn't necessarily mean that it's the best example... Thanks for pointing this out though!
It's a good chance for me to clarify.

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Shanks » 03 Feb 2018, 23:19

Tiger1996 wrote:No, of course i am not hoping for a nerf to Armor doctrine.. this is not my intent.
For me the game is balanced on both sides currently, Axis and Allies... And so, I'm only trying to prove that nothing need to change! ;)




Is it just for entertainment? be honest...I also do not say that armor does not work now, I'm just saying that you say, that armored doctrine is OP, it's too obvious !, you say arrogant, but you set out to extend a game already won, and upload it here, as if to say "look all these units, something is wrong ", and yes, when I talk about a repetition, I was referring to yesterday's game, where the armor doctrine was clearly humiliated, the one who played with BK did not need heavy tanks, so that we win, and worse yet, we destroyed heavy tanks, easily, like the pershing and SP, and the one who wore armor was the dolphin, a good player, who everyone sees at stake, every day, he's not a rookie, or you're going to tell me Is it?, his teammates did not play bad either, maybe, the one who played with Britons was "karma" or "Ete", good allied players, and I did not start up any repetition that says, "the power of AXIS", is It is not the way to show your disagreement, also I think, that everything is almost perfect, for now, and if there is something wrong, the time will say it

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Tiger1996 » 03 Feb 2018, 23:41

I think ur English isn't really helping u ^^ Clearly, I don't think that Armor doc is OP anyhow, absolutely not!

And the game we played together on Road To Cherbourg will be more or less also called something like "Power of Panther" because u know, the Panther scored some good kills there.. does this mean I think Panther is OP because of how I put the title? Surely not! ;) And by the way, Dolphin scored some good kills with his Pershing in that game too.. just saying.

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Shanks » 03 Feb 2018, 23:58

Yes, my English is crap, but you understand, I did not say that dolphin did not do anything, because he knows how to play, I just said that armor was completely destroyed, we no need to use tigers,only medium tanks and tank destroyers

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Re: Power of US Armor!

Postby Warhawks97 » 04 Feb 2018, 00:12

Oh... the scoreboard. Really? again?

You know that WH gets no points for vet units survivng? You know that para reinforce count as "build" thus giving you billion of points?

K/D?

When i play as PE and losing 10 krads, does it mean i am worse than my teammate losing 2 tigers? I mean i lost 10 vehicles, he just two. I played worse for sure.


Pls dont come with silly scoreboard. There is no kind of "assist kill", "damage dealt" like in coh 2, no "MP loss count", no points for observation etc.

Your mate actually checkmated your opponents and killed all the valuable units.


Why going with shermans and shit against def and TH? Bc you can simply build more. In this case it doesnt really matter if you get a jumbo, pershing or sherman. When you drive into a Nashorn or jagdpanther ambush (or even IV/70) it doesnt matter if its a pershing or sherman. In fact its better to "float them" with trash. Pershings and quality makes more sense against panthers and tigers, but not against panther canon armed medium expensive stuff that can fire from ambush twice.


Sticky immobilized the tank? Well, the germans would have used the good old Panzerfaust or AT nade and kill it outright.


Grille didnt kill in a shot? Well, having a 100% kill chance for 50 ammo would be really op or? Also it takes 40 sec or less to fire again. Also bugs still exist from time to time. That a axis fat armored thing can stand incredible arty punishment is not a bug or something. Its the good old target table.

In fact the german tanks in TH doc become incredible resistant to arty when Zimmerit is up. Besides the natural resistant to arty the zimmerit reduces by further 25%. Against a unit like the JT the arty losses over 50% of its damage when Zimmerit is upgraded.

And well... 85 ammo for arty strike, 95 for calli, 50 for 105 sherman and possibly even more. For that ammount the axis would have killed entire tank armies including pershings and churchills.


Tiger1996 wrote:
Only 76 Shermans were missing, but for an obvious reason.


Yes. Paper armor, grandmothers as loaders and sabotaged rounds. Its good for the enemie to make points and vets. But we dont want this to happen right?


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