1v1 in the 5.1.2 beta version (Kurland Pocket)

[mofetagalactica]

Exe (Blitz) i think - Figree (Armor)

Got a nice 1v1 in the latest Beta version of bk, had lot of fun on this one.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think you have actually shared the wrong replay file.

Your opponent is not ExE and the map is not Kurland Pocket!

[mofetagalactica]

I think you have actually shared the wrong replay file.

Your opponent is not ExE and the map is not Kurland Pocket!

Fuck you're right my bad, there i fixed it try now, thanks! :3

[MarKr]

So much for my:

For all of you testing the beta build - the changes and mod in general is made to be played under certain settings and other settings might cause ballance issues. The seetings were mentioned 1000times but just to be safe, I will say it once more:
- 2v2 or 3v3
- High resources
- big maps (prefferably the +1 system)

Well, anyway the US riflenades seem to be in need of some tuning...

[sgtToni95]

Well, anyway the US riflenades seem to be in need of some tuning...

What do you mean?

Btw did you change anything in Stug's mg? It's killing even pak crew from really far away, and infantry getting closer dies really really fast. I noticed the same even in a 1v1 i had with kwok. I mean, it's fine.. just it seems to perform better than in current patch.

[MarKr]

The rifle grenades (the fragmentation ones) are meant to be primarily used vs soldiers garrisoned in buildings, trenches and emplacements and they are meant to be quite inaccurate against soldiers withouth cover, in yellow and green cover. It is like this for the HE rifle grenades of CW but the US ones are way more accurate even against soldiers in these types of cover so they should be set the same. With the current settings the Riflemen are capable of killing even Storms in 1v1 which was not the intention behind making the Riflenades available sooner and to all docs.

StuG MG hasn't been touched for ages. As far as I can tell it's always been this efficient.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

So much for my:

For all of you testing the beta build - the changes and mod in general is made to be played under certain settings and other settings might cause ballance issues. The seetings were mentioned 1000times but just to be safe, I will say it once more:
- 2v2 or 3v3
- High resources
- big maps (prefferably the +1 system)

Well, anyway the US riflenades seem to be in need of some tuning...

You most be fucking kidding, sometime's rifle nade kill's 4 man

[MarKr]

What is there to be kidding about?

[Krieger Blitzer]

MarKr is absolutely right about US Rifle-nades, often had vet3 and even vet4 Riflemen cause of that.. and not just vs Storms but even against Luft inf!

And the Stug MG is very fine, in fact... I don't even know why the MG efficiency of the 75mm Puma was lowered, as it was also fine in my opinion.
Specifically when keeping in mind that Recce, Staghound and even the Greyhound might be just as deadly against infantry btw.. but well, anyway.

[mofetagalactica]

The rifle grenades (the fragmentation ones) are meant to be primarily used vs soldiers garrisoned in buildings, trenches and emplacements and they are meant to be quite inaccurate against soldiers withouth cover, in yellow and green cover. It is like this for the HE rifle grenades of CW but the US ones are way more accurate even against soldiers in these types of cover so they should be set the same. With the current settings the Riflemen are capable of killing even Storms in 1v1 which was not the intention behind making the Riflenades available sooner and to all docs.

StuG MG hasn't been touched for ages. As far as I can tell it's always been this efficient.

They are inaccurate, i was just aiming at the ground not at the enemy units and got lucky, about using it in buildings there is a bug about that for some weird reason the hability dosn't work when you use it on a building or just get super super innacurate.

They're fine for me, i even use them in current patch because garands are not good enought to fight toe to toe without spending ammo on grenades.

Veterancy on riflemens dosn't matter anyway they will still die easily, it dosn't matter if you have them veterancy 999999 they will still die vs storms/grenadiers if you dont expend lots of ammo using special hablities and buy them all the guns you can, thats why i had to expend lots of ammo in grenade launchers, and now if you get Gl's you can't buy any other upgrade so....

[Krieger Blitzer]

Veterancy on riflemens dosn't matter anyway they will still die easily.

Even if they still die fast.. you already gather about 40 kills, and that is not just "worth it" but actually TOO much! Specifically when against Luft inf or Storms. Rifle-nades work like small mortars...

Keep in mind also that rifle-nades are available to all docs now, including Armor doc.. not to mention (if i remember correctly) they are also unlimited. Which means you can have a lot of Riflemen who are cheap to produce, each squad being equipped with it!

Yet, however.. instead of lowering the accuracy or whatever. I would rather suggest assigning a limit, I would say max 2 squads at a time or so.
Tulip rockets (btw) are limited the same way... Max 2 Shermans at a time can equip the rockets.
The 3rd won't have the upgrade unless 1 of the first 2 Shermans is destroyed...

[MarKr]

They are inaccurate, i was just aiming at the ground not at the enemy units and got lucky

Have you tried rifle nades on Tommies? They are way more innacurate with their grenades (it is not just feeling, the numbers in files confirm it too).
It is simply meant to work the way that against soldiers that are not in buildings or trenches, normal hand grenades should be more reliable. Against soldiers in buildings the riflenades should be used (if you have them). From what I've seen it was more like "riflenade against everything in any situation"

about using it in buildings there is a bug about that for some weird reason the hability dosn't work when you use it on a building or just get super super innacurate.

Wait...using IN buildings or ON buildings? Because I noticed that the grenades won't be fired from buildings sometimes but I've never seen a rifle grenade not fire at garrisoned buildings or miss them. Even in the replay there is a situation where ExE sends some soldiers (I think an AT suqad) into a building and the riflenade directly hits and kills them on the first shot

They're fine for me, i even use them in current patch because garands are not good enought to fight toe to toe without spending ammo on grenades.

Veterancy on riflemens dosn't matter anyway they will still die easily, it dosn't matter if you have them veterancy 999999 they will still die vs storms/grenadiers if you dont expend lots of ammo using special hablities and buy them all the guns you can, thats why i had to expend lots of ammo in grenade launchers, and now if you get Gl's you can't buy any other upgrade so....

"Riflemen die fast vs Grens/storms"...well, yeah. Riflemen are basic infantry that costs (now) 255MP, Storms cost almost twice that, Grens around 400MP. We cannot make Riflemen squad win in 1v1 shootouts vs Grens/Storms (when neither has weapon upgrades). That is like asking Volks (without any bonuses and weapons) to beat Enfield commandos in 1v1.

[mofetagalactica]

Have you tried rifle nades on Tommies? They are way more innacurate with their grenades (it is not just feeling, the numbers in files confirm it too).
It is simply meant to work the way that against soldiers that are not in buildings or trenches, normal hand grenades should be more reliable. Against soldiers in buildings the riflenades should be used (if you have them). From what I've seen it was more like "riflenade against everything in any situation"

I have tried them and you can't compare the unit itself with riflemens, i use them the same way, you have to aim at the ground not over the enemy soldiers or it will miss and you also have to anticipate the enemy movement.

Wait...using IN buildings or ON buildings? Because I noticed that the grenades won't be fired from buildings sometimes but I've never seen a rifle grenade not fire at garrisoned buildings or miss them. Even in the replay there is a situation where ExE sends some soldiers (I think an AT suqad) into a building and the riflenade directly hits and kills them on the first shot

ON like i said. And they work like shit unless you aim the closer u can to the building (ground) then they somewhat stick to the building and explodes.

"Riflemen die fast vs Grens/storms"...well, yeah. Riflemen are basic infantry that costs (now) 255MP, Storms cost almost twice that, Grens around 400MP. We cannot make Riflemen squad win in 1v1 shootouts vs Grens/Storms (when neither has weapon upgrades). That is like asking Volks (without any bonuses and weapons) to beat Enfield commandos in 1v1.

Being cheaper its no excuse tho, there are lots of units that are cheap and can kill more expensive ones, If you got a rifle squad fully upgraded they should be able to 1v1 more expensive units with correct tactics, in this case the use of GL helps you with that, also cost ammo everytime you use it and it can be avoided easily by just moving, GL its just the best upgrade for a squishy unit like riflemens. The others upgrade just aren't right for them, they're not very suitable for being cqc (grease guns) and BAR's pretty much suck, even on Airbone INF.

[Warhawks97]

The rifle nades cost 35 to upgrade and 20 or 25 per shot. And it denies any further upgrade. The Rifle squads also became more expensive. So in comparision to brits they do have their tribute to pay to be better. Nerf them too early (i mean its still beta here with 20 players) and you might ruin everyhting that made rifle squads somewhat usefull in the game.

And imagine 4 kills per nade shot. That makes 75 ammo at least to pay to score 8 kills (and i doubt every shot is such a good one). Compare that to lmgs like the 34 or 42 (which cost less ammo now). Their "score/cost" ratio is still vastly superior than those to the rifle nades.

Have two squads making each one shot during a standard engagment with axis (i mean you have to use them to kill anything at all) and you have spend just like that 70 ammo for upgrading without having any effect yet. Makes over 100 ammo at the end you you have maybe killed what? 4 men?
Also there is the option to simply overrung "rifle squad rifle grenade spam" with lots of volks using lmg34. When he has all his squads upgraded with rifle grenades he will waste his entire ammo stock just for killing some expendable volks which will most likely come back a few sec later. Each more than capable of completely overwhelm rifle squads, esspecially with single investment lmg34 and ranged combat.


So there are lots of drawbacks. The rifle grenade is now a long term strategic investment. Buy too many of them you will be unable to use anything else due to lack of ammo.
The guys here just see "omg, 4 elites died to a rifle grenade from cheap rifles! OP!" They absolutely ignore the other sides like the massive costs, the required micro, the chance that you do nothing at all and wasting 60 ammo for nothing, the reduced firepower of rifle squads, esspecially when the ability is on cooldown etc etc etc.


besides that. Cheap Volks were used to go head on head with vastly more expensive enemie units or at least had good chances to cause so much damage and losses that the enemie might have won this combat, but had to retreat as well after that. I mean i had situations with volks where they shred commandos, rangers and SAS when they got caught in an unfavourable moment. That wouldnt happen to fallis or storms being in an unfavourable moment when rifles would start shooting them.

[Krieger Blitzer]

And imagine 4 kills per nade shot. That makes 75 ammo at least to pay to score 8 kills (and i doubt every shot is such a good one).

Those 4 or 8 kills though.. might be already a full squad, so it is worth it.

The guys here just see "omg, 4 elites died to a rifle grenade from cheap rifles! OP!" They absolutely ignore the other sides like the massive costs, the required micro

Hmm, I think there is no much micro required.
imagine a riflemen squad equipped with rifle-nades behind cover vs a Storm squad behind cover at max range... Mostly the StormTroops would soon have to retreat as of 2 or 1 rifle grenade shot. And if they rush the Riflemen squad, then they are exposed to fast firing M1 Garands, probably unless the Storm squad is armed to teeth with all weapon upgrades, but that also requires insane amount of ammo by the way!
Same goes vs 101st Airborne squads by the way.. the 101st would keep reinforcing from the air, Storms would not.. meaning that eventually Storms would lose the position and retreat. Otherwise they would die... And if they rush the 101st squad, then they are exposed to flame nades.

I mean i had situations with volks where they shred commandos, rangers and SAS when they got caught in an unfavourable moment. That wouldnt happen to fallis or storms being in an unfavourable moment when rifles would start shooting them.

This is not true, i have seen Riflemen with Grease guns beating up Assault PanzerGrenadiers at close range.. and Volks are a waste against SAS most of the times. Volks are already waste against Rifle Sections.. not to speak about SAS who are even able to rush MG42s frontally in late game!

[MarKr]

So you're comparing volks without bonuses and weapons, when we are talking about riflemens with upgrades , what?

Ehm...you said (I forgot to include this part to the quotation in the last post)

They're fine for me, i even use them in current patch because garands are not good enought to fight toe to toe without spending ammo on grenades.

I was reacting to that - saying that Garands (alone) on Riflemen are not meant to win vs Grens/Storms because those are higher tier infantry and it would be same as if Volks without upgrades could shred in 1v1 better units.

Thing is easy, if you move the GL will not hit you if you stand in cover it will it you with you 60% of the times.

Hmmm...so you shoot a grenade (from cover without the need to actually expose yourself), and opponent has two options: 1) stay there and die because the grenade will most likely hit his squad, kill some soldiers, destroy the cover and the squad remains exposed or 2) leave the cover and be exposed...and guess who gets +25% (or 50%? not sure now) accuracy bonus vs infantry that is in no cover? Right, every bullet-shooting weapons.

So you fire a grenade, opponent either dies by explosion, or you force them to leave the cover and thus gain accuracy bonus to finishem off with your rifles, all of that from safety of your own cover?

I am not going to argue about this - the riflegrenades were made available sooner and to every doctrine so that in early game US players can have some alternative ways to 37mm AT gun to fight armored vehicles - the AT rifle grenade. That grenade works fine. The HE grenades are in the game to make clearing trenches and garrisoned buildings easier on the squad with the upgrade, not to shoot grenades on everything on every infantry squad around occasion. For killing infantry in cover, you can use normal grenades.

The HE rifle grenades on US side are too accurate against soldiers in green/yellow cover compared to CW.

The guys here just see "omg, 4 elites died to a rifle grenade from cheap rifles! OP!"

I don't care if it kills 4 elites when the grenade hits right spot, I have problem with how often it hits this right spot.

Cheap Volks were used to go head on head with vastly more expensive enemie units or at least had good chances to cause so much damage and losses that the enemie might have won this combat, but had to retreat as well after that.

Sure, but those were doc-specific situations. Terror has passive Zeal and Def doc has the defensive bonuses in cover. You cannot compare that to a unit that can work in a certain way in every doctrine.
As I said - riflenades on US were changed to boost early AT capability, not infatry-killing capability.

[Warhawks97]

The HE rifle grenades on US side are too accurate against soldiers in green/yellow cover compared to CW.

Which is a problem in how far? They can be further upgraded.

I don't care if it kills 4 elites when the grenade hits right spot, I have problem with how often it hits this right spot.

I just saw 5.1.2 is out. Just wait and see what all the others say. Right now this discussion is based on few experiences of 20 players of which two are actually discussing with different views. Just wait a bit and see whether huge complains pop up or not. But dont get in hurry too early.

Sure, but those were doc-specific situations. Terror has passive Zeal and Def doc has the defensive bonuses in cover. You cannot compare that to a unit that can work in a certain way in every doctrine.
As I said - riflenades on US were changed to boost early AT capability, not infatry-killing capability.

Where did i say def or terror? I played 90% of my time with BK doc. There Volks belonged to my core units all day long through almost all stages of the game.

Edit:

And the Stug MG is very fine, in fact... I don't even know why the MG efficiency of the 75mm Puma was lowered, as it was also fine in my opinion.
Specifically when keeping in mind that Recce, Staghound and even the Greyhound might be just as deadly against infantry btw.. but well, anyway.

Thing with the mg of the 75 mm puma is that its a coaxial. And all other coaxial in BK suck and do nothing more than noise. So why should this one have the only unit in game that has a coaxial that is actually working and that has the same stats as top mounts?
Terror and PE have both HT´s with the same 75 mm stubby and abilities and coaxial MG but theirs cant kill anything while costing about the same as the Puma. So there is simply a huge sort of "unfairness".
Not that i am liking how coaxial (and hull MG´s) work in BK, but if they suck they should suck for all without exception.

[MarKr]

Where did i say def or terror? I played 90% of my time with BK doc. There Volks belonged to my core units all day long through almost all stages of the game.

OK, but Volks in general were bit off because you could get tons of them for free via triage centers so the pure numbers could do wonders.

I just saw 5.1.2 is out. Just wait and see what all the other says. Right now this discussion is based on few experiences of 20 players of which two are actually discussing with different views. Just wait a bit and see whether huge complains pop up or not. But dont get in hurry too early.

Just a question - what are you affraid of? "Riflemen will be weak/broken"? How exactly?
Riflemen received:
- Faster rate of fire on longer distances (advantage starts showing when you have more than 1 squad)
- even faster RoF with vet (instead of increased accuracy)
- increased AT capacity by adding the option to upgrade riflegrenades
- as compensation increased cost and a bit lowered accuracy at bigger ranges

Where in that is any mention about increased anti-infantry capacity by means of quite accurate grenade shooting? Once and for all - main reason for enabling rifle grenades for all US docs was the option to shoot AT nades in early game. It was expected that the efficiency of the frag grenades will be same as for CW (so quite low for non-garrisoned targets) and so it will not be main upgrade for every Riflemen squad. In the replay, how many vehicle kills did the Riflemen squad scored with rifle nades? None. How many with frag nades? Don't know the exact count but it looked like they scored more kills with those nades than with their rifles. Sure, it is costly but that does not change the fact that it is non-intended behavior.

[mofetagalactica]

Where did i say def or terror? I played 90% of my time with BK doc. There Volks belonged to my core units all day long through almost all stages of the game.

OK, but Volks in general were bit off because you could get tons of them for free via triage centers so the pure numbers could do wonders.

I just saw 5.1.2 is out. Just wait and see what all the other says. Right now this discussion is based on few experiences of 20 players of which two are actually discussing with different views. Just wait a bit and see whether huge complains pop up or not. But dont get in hurry too early.

Just a question - what are you affraid of? "Riflemen will be weak/broken"? How exactly?
Riflemen received:
- Faster rate of fire on longer distances (advantage starts showing when you have more than 1 squad)
- even faster RoF with vet (instead of increased accuracy)
- increased AT capacity by adding the option to upgrade riflegrenades
- as compensation increased cost and a bit lowered accuracy at bigger ranges

Where in that is any mention about increased anti-infantry capacity by means of quite accurate grenade shooting? Once and for all - main reason for enabling rifle grenades for all US docs was the option to shoot AT nades in early game. It was expected that the efficiency of the frag grenades will be same as for CW (so quite low for non-garrisoned targets) and so it will not be main upgrade for every Riflemen squad. In the replay, how many vehicle kills did the Riflemen squad scored with rifle nades? None. How many with frag nades? Don't know the exact count but it looked like they scored more kills with those nades than with their rifles. Sure, it is costly but that does not change the fact that it is non-intended behavior.

What would you do in the same scenario than mine if i didn't had rifle nades? BAR's? lol

[MarKr]

I am not saying you shouldn't have used it - the beta build allows it, you broke no rules, you did not exploit a bug. I am saying that the current accuracy of US fragmentation riflegrenades vs non-garrisoned soldiers is an oversight, is not intended and because of that will be corrected.

[Warhawks97]

And what would be about a whole rethought about rifle squads?

I mean currently i do see a chance that riflemen become more than just a capping unit and free vet for the enemie, no matter at what distance an engagment took place. And i am scared you take away the fact that riflemen become somewhat usefull and fearfull opponents just like volks with lmg and faust can be effective and a threat to inf and armor.

And that you gonna overreact here. Just keep it first and see whats going to happen.


Furthermore, why it cant be the beginning of a new thinking of US gameplay. As mentioned several times, away from that pure one unit type spam towards a generally better balanced faction as a whole.

I mean we had great support for example for switching rangers to inf only, combat engis to armor etc. And while doing this, the riflemen can become a backbone of the US gameplay as the sole standard combat infantry unit. Its efficiency and cost could for example be placed between Volksgrens and Grens. Nobody ever said "riflemen must be cheaper and weaker than axis counterpart unit".

Just.... think new. We have got a opportunity here to see how that new thinking might look like and how people will hate or appreciate it. Why ruining it before more could see it? Maybe its a lot more fun to play US with units that are competetive and usefull when they are not send, wasted and rebuild in massive numbers and always superior to counterparts.

This is in my opinion the first step and the first chance to actually how this would work out: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2275

Its not necessary the rifle nade itself on which my focus is or not only. Its how it might look like when US units are competetive and effective and not just waste, masses and expendable which is a pretty boring gameplay over the time and predictive and frustrating.

So just leave it for a while. Just to let people see. Thats all i am asking for.

[MarKr]

Yes, we know what your vision of BK is...Jumbo gone from Inf. doc, Combat engineers moved to Armor, Rangers only in Inf.doc, buffed hull MGs etc. etc. we read that many times, we said we don't share this view.

Why ruining it before more could see it? Maybe its a lot more fun to play US with units that are competetive and usefull...

Ruin what? This is just another buff for allies which will only hurt the Axis gameplay. So what will happen? Axis players will cry that those nades are fricking nasty in game and that they are OP (because they lose way more expensive soldiers to them). Allies players will say that it is fine as it is (because it plays into their cards).

My last comment here. From my side it is "no", but I am not the one with last word, convince him and I'll do what he says.

[Warhawks97]

Markr. I am not talking about the actual balance or what is OP. Just that might be chance to get away from that "super cheap" vs "super expensive" thing.

Rifle squads dont have to be the cheapest inf, Grens dont have to cost as much as Commandos and so on. This is my point. Have you ever thought about how US would feel like if they wouldnt be all the time "Omg, enemie has two inf squads, i have to send quickly 6 of mine".

I mean why it cant be more like (throwing random numbers now) 250 Mp volks, 275 MP rifle squad, 310 MP grens.

Why games have to end up with "180 mp Rifles" vs 400 MP grens. (i know there are rangers and more costly and so on....). I am not requesting to throw the "quantity faction" thing completely away, but not so drastic. Games look most of the time like King arthur and his few knights (esspecially when i see luftwaffe games) vs hordes of saxon invaders that are throw hordes to slowly battle down these holly knights.
At least thats how it looks like when US inf must battle axis fallis. Hordes of 101st or now rifle squads with rifle nades killing them. And the rifle grenade is know the unholy grail, a mighty weapon which suddenly allows a few saxons to effectievely fight these knights and which saves many lives of the saxon invaders.

Sure it is OP. But if players play and come to the point "hey, US makes more fun to play when my units got something to score"....The balance stuff can be adjusted later via price changes or whatever.

But yeah, lets end it here.

[mofetagalactica]

Are we gonna see small patch's now that we're all in the steam version? and will autoupdate for everyone?

[Shanks]

Veterancy on riflemens dosn't matter anyway they will still die easily.

Even if they still die fast.. you already gather about 40 kills, and that is not just "worth it" but actually TOO much! Specifically when against Luft inf or Storms. Rifle-nades work like small mortars...

Keep in mind also that rifle-nades are available to all docs now, including Armor doc.. not to mention (if i remember correctly) they are also unlimited. Which means you can have a lot of Riflemen who are cheap to produce, each squad being equipped with it!

Yet, however.. instead of lowering the accuracy or whatever. I would rather suggest assigning a limit, I would say max 2 squads at a time or so.
Tulip rockets (btw) are limited the same way... Max 2 Shermans at a time can equip the rockets.
The 3rd won't have the upgrade unless 1 of the first 2 Shermans is destroyed...

great idea!