Worst Defeat EVER

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Tiger1996
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Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Tiger1996 » 27 Nov 2017, 13:10

Well, usually people would expect me posting "BEST GAME EVER" or something of that sort.. but this time, sadly not.

This is a 2vs2 on a big 3vs3 map by the way. And I am underlining this just so no one would come here and say "play on big maps" or whatnot!

I pretty much described the reasons why I think this has to be so much of a sad game, I did illustrate my conclusions both within the beginning of the video as well as on the comment section too, Though; I wonder if I should repeat the same thing here once again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVDavWiiX3c
SnapShot.jpg
Video Thumbnail.


Probably I should still point out a few things once again though.. gentlemen, the Comet acts more like a "Pershing" but also with flank speed... I am not sure if this is fine or not, but there is no doubt the Comet's armor is in fact way too unreal.

And the hell is wrong with this Maultier truck?? 85 ammo for the barrage and only deals 5% damage to the 17pdr emplacement??
On the other hand the 95mm Churchill for 45 ammo KILLS flak88 emplacements...

Download link for the replay file is also attached within the video description by the way, but here I upload it once more.. just in case somebody is unable to get it from MediaFire or something.
temp.rec
Bk Mod version 5.0.0 playback file.
(3.22 MiB) Downloaded 18 times


Enjoy... Or even not :|

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Tiger1996
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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Tiger1996 » 27 Nov 2017, 15:11

Hi Dolphins.

Listen, whenever I get frustrated at some game... I always try not to spill my frustration over the opponent players themselves.. by calling them this, that or whatever. I would either say "gg" and simply leave or maybe in the worst cases, I'd probably rant a little bit about the game balance before I go.
Which is pretty much what I did on this video. However, I would never cross my opponents in a bad manner, unless they manage to cross me though! ^^

And thanks ;)

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Wurf
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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Wurf » 27 Nov 2017, 18:19

DolphinsIsAnIdea wrote:they re abusing spesific op things in game and not because they re good players


Its prohibited or what? You play for win,or make your opponents nicely fun pink loose? Tell this developrs of BK,and not to cry on normal forum. Me play for win, with as little as possible work, and fun for me of course...

DolphinsIsAnIdea wrote:and then they whine about their win and how good they played


According to you, you judge to me? I not rember,when i do this...You can remind to me,and substantiate it with real evidence

DolphinsIsAnIdea wrote:plus they always have the luck with their side


Y as always in my about 3500 Wins :D

- I want to be very dirty again to you, but I do not want to get a BANana on forum like you :D and after as a beggar, establish new account here...
Last edited by Wurf on 27 Nov 2017, 19:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Warhawks97 » 27 Nov 2017, 18:30

In advance, before watching the vid, the reason why axis use their rocket arty (or rocket arty at all) rather against everything but defenses is exactly that its pointless against defenses (except maybe the heaviest rocket arty like stuka and 210, but they do cost a lot to be build and use in return).

I mean lets be honest, the axis rocket arty is excellent as a defensive tool that shoots from closer rangers (or better not from max range) against advancing units, inf but also tanks. Tanks seem to be even more vulnerable too the light or medium rocket arty as emplacments or at least just as vulnerable.

I would appreciate to see a switching in the devs minds by changing rocket artilleries role and more appealing for smashing or weakening defenses rather than throwing it against everything but defenses. I mean the choice of target is obvious. Emplacments that will easily survive a barrage or the poor (and more expensive( inf squad or tank next to it.

But i guess most here know my point about arty and tanks.


Edit: Or as i like to say: The rocket artillery discussion isnt finished in my opinion. We still have no idea what its good for or supposed to be. I mean they are either cheap as fuck but their goal is actually just to "fire at whatever" over huge distances. I am talking about basic nebelwerfer. Others are "Wunderwaffen" that can be considered as weapons of mass destruction (the 210 from SE) that are effective against everything and other rocket arty that costs a lot, comes late but makes just noise (calli) and medium costing rocket arty that are for many players quite unsatisfying (maultier) in their price tag due to price-efficiency issues, damage and range and then we have early, cheap rocket arty with a high damage potential (hotchkiss) and finally late coming, costly one with damage potential and lower range (walking stuka)

Sure, different calibres, docs and so on. But still i would wish to have a generally more defined role and "certain standards" if i can call it that way.
This includes ranges, cooldowns and cost (barrage and build cost) and against what they should be actually used. As far as i know rocket arty was most(ly) (of the time) HE pared with fragmentation with some scatter and and short (walking stuka) to medium range (others). So why they cant be good in exactly doing this? Means most damage vs inf with decent blast harming troops in the open but also dealing decent damage against emplacments? More a suppressive tool during own attacks rather than "Wunderwaffe/cheap counteraty/spam/useless/Wahtever you want".
Their cost should be put in an area that makes it unappealing to be fired completely random at areas where at best one cheap enemie inf squad is present.
Their range clearly distinguish from howitzers and so on.
For me the rocket arty thing is one of the greatest missworking and unsolved


Edit II: About the comet i cant find anything wrong here. In a 2 (3 with command tank) vs 1 the panther A killed a comet before getting killed by the second.

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Tiger1996 » 27 Nov 2017, 20:20

I am more or less satisfied how rocket arty is demonstrated currently in the mod, however... It's just the Maultier. This is such a very underwhelming damage to the RE doc 17pdr emplacements.. in fact, this can't be even called "damaging" but more like "tickling" to the 17pdr emplacement. I said it before as sarcasm, but again really.. if this Maultier would throw "stones and rocks" instead of the current so called "150mm incendiary rockets" then I think the stones would actually deal more damage than this.

150mm Nebels from Terror doc are the same, but probably it's fine there.. because after all Terror doc still has much better situation when it comes to the arty punch compared to Blitz doc. I mean, Terror still has Walking Stukas, SturmTiger, off-map FireStorm and even incendiary mortars... So, they don't really need the 150mm Nebels anyway.

And btw, even Armor doc has much better arty now in 5.1.1 after allowing the off-map arty barrage earlier.. which only costs 75 ammo, being the same caliber as the inf doc 105mm off-map (which costs 165 ammo on the other hand) although the one from Armor doc is perhaps even deadlier as it drops more shells than the one from inf doc.
So, why not also improving the Maultier against emplacements to make the balance table more "even" if I could say so??

About the Comet, it did bounce off several PanzerShrecks as well as Tiger1 88s cannons... If we are agree that this is fine, then maybe at least the flank speed ability shouldn't be available for this tank by default, as it should require some veterancy I think.

Lastly, there is 1 specific comment on the video of which I would like to quote here...

ironwarior4 wrote:The dev of the mod should definitely re-evaluate the 17 pdr emplacement stats like :
- The He shell against inf is way too accurate.
- Insane repair rate comapared to 88 emplacement.
- Weak damage from grenades and Maultier.

Also they should slow the building rate ( you can pop them anywhere in no time it's not even funny).


He simply summed it all up.

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Wurf
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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Wurf » 27 Nov 2017, 20:57

Stop offend me,and others...its all from you?
Last edited by Wurf on 28 Nov 2017, 16:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Vega1707
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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Vega1707 » 27 Nov 2017, 21:48

just keep it to a nice and casual discussion please ;)

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Henny
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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Henny » 27 Nov 2017, 23:26

Nerf RE Comet and emplacement spam

Comet = 600 Mp, 100 fuel
American M36 = 700 MP, 110 fuel
Tiger = 900 Mp, 160 Fuel
Balance = NONE

Emplacements = NO COMMENT. GO SEE FOR YOURSELF. RE Engineers are magicians and they can produce and repair these emplacements at light speeds. LONG LIVE THE BRITISH EXPEDITIONARY FORCE, THE MOST OVERPOWERED FACTION TO GRACE BK MOD
Watman and Autraymond have left the game.

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Shanks » 28 Nov 2017, 05:45

I only agree that 85 ammunition for the maultier is stupid, it should be 50 ammo, the rest is your error, obviously BK can not vs RE, just as ARMOR can not vs TH, it would have been better terror and TH, with stukas there would be no problems vs emplacement, and the comet is not the big thing, compared to what the TH doctrine has, I always say ... the natural enemy of the USA is WM, and the natural enemy of Britain is Panzer Elite.......Most of the times you lose, it's due to lack of artillery,those emplacement can not stand against the 105 mm, or stukas ..... I have not seen the repetition yet, but I think I know what happened

@henny: You can kill all allied tanks with ease, including the comet and SP with Sd.Kfz. 164 Narshon god(one shot)!!!! you just need 560 MP and 75 fuel.....or......this is my favorite......Hetzer,unit with camouflage capability and flanking speed, can also kill the comet in one shot, you just need 450 MP and 50 fuel,in doctrines like luft or SE, not to mention that ... in TH they are much stronger and you have more benefits with these units !!!+++++Hotchkiss,that only artillery with 50 of ammunition and can clear infantry, emplacement and finish tanks !!!!

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Henny » 28 Nov 2017, 06:31

@shanks literally ANY anti tank gun (even 37mm) and ab recoil less rifle can 1 hit a Nashorn on the offensive without camo, and if a comet can deflect tiger ap rounds what makes you think a hetzer on the offensive without camo is gonna do against it. This is an offensive battle you don't camp against Re and ab


TH can't do anything against RE they just put up 17 let emplacements until you die. Hotchkiss destroys one another spawns in its place in 3.25 seconds
Watman and Autraymond have left the game.

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Shanks
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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Shanks » 28 Nov 2017, 07:02

Let's try your theory one day, henny,I'm not going to teach you how to play, you're great, I think you can learn...too...I think you should also see an old repetition of playbetter vs lehr"1v1" , where playbetter destroys a lot of emplacement, with the terror doctrine vs. RE and then comes out victorious...... before saying things like, "Nerf"....... On the other hand, lololololol lehr was doing another emplacement at the end of game, I think If the 17 lbs had no HE, the tiger would win...too...it is very bad that three grenades can not empty an emplacement, it should be enough with two, at most

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Warhawks97 » 28 Nov 2017, 11:47

@henny: The issue here was probably the wrong doc pic and how players fought their opponents. Th doc, as shanks said, would have had many super cost effective anti tank tools that could have dealed with any RE armor. Nashorn is not for the offensive, but its price tag in the defense is almost unmatched. It knocks out tanks from afar in a single shot and even SP can become an easy target.

Also you cant compare units cost one to one. They have different roles and support. The way we compare tiger to comet we could also compare sappers and other engineering units or grens and standard rifle sections.

Luft/Th or TH/Bk would have ended up better with clear role distribution. Pumas and ostwind against the inf, th´s and hotchkiss and storms vs emplacments. Or luftwaffe defensives, inf, sd2 or air support combined with cheap tank destroyers.

If anything RE is good for then in countering BK doc. Recce vs storms, emplacments and comet vs any armor BK can field.

@shanks: I wouldnt reduce any cost of arty as it just enforces the "fire randomly everywhere". Slight changes in efficiency against certain kinds of targets would have a better impact on the game. Lots of cheap arty wont make anyone happy. The user not as it still hardly kills what he wants to kill, the defender not as the rockets fly all over them nonstop and completely suppressing his game. And since emplacments are the only things that seem to be quite immune to that while also cheap to get he will get even more of them.

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Shanks » 28 Nov 2017, 16:30

Warhawks97 wrote:@henny: The issue here was probably the wrong doc pic and how players fought their opponents. Th doc, as shanks said, would have had many super cost effective anti tank tools that could have dealed with any RE armor. Nashorn is not for the offensive, but its price tag in the defense is almost unmatched. It knocks out tanks from afar in a single shot and even SP can become an easy target.

Also you cant compare units cost one to one. They have different roles and support. The way we compare tiger to comet we could also compare sappers and other engineering units or grens and standard rifle sections.

Luft/Th or TH/Bk would have ended up better with clear role distribution. Pumas and ostwind against the inf, th´s and hotchkiss and storms vs emplacments. Or luftwaffe defensives, inf, sd2 or air support combined with cheap tank destroyers.

If anything RE is good for then in countering BK doc. Recce vs storms, emplacments and comet vs any armor BK can field.

@shanks: I wouldnt reduce any cost of arty as it just enforces the "fire randomly everywhere". Slight changes in efficiency against certain kinds of targets would have a better impact on the game. Lots of cheap arty wont make anyone happy. The user not as it still hardly kills what he wants to kill, the defender not as the rockets fly all over them nonstop and completely suppressing his game. And since emplacments are the only things that seem to be quite immune to that while also cheap to get he will get even more of them.


you're right..but I think that the emplacement 17 lbs, should not have HE, and should be able to be emptied by two grenades....although, I do not know if the grenadiers grenade empties it faster, and if so, it's fine as it is now

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Tiger1996 » 28 Nov 2017, 17:05

I don't think Tank Hunter doctrine would have been a better choice in any possible way against Airborne. Given the fact that TH doc also lack effective AA. Even both my Ostwinds as well as my team-mate's flak88 weren't good enough to protect us from Airborne airplanes.. while on the other hand, 2 Crusaders and a single Quad AA emplacement were more than enough to destroy all Henschels and later Stuka aircrafts too!

Not to mention that the only tank in TH doctrine which is really able to walk through RE emplacements, is the JT. Which is an easy target for airborne airstrikes...

Furthermore, I would like to add.. my Stuh was the only effective tool against those emplacements, however... Stuh has long reload time, meanwhile it reloads.. the RE Sappers would already finish repairing the 17pdr health to the max value again thanks to the extremely fast repair speed. Which means that the Stuh does nothing... Keeping in mind also how the Stuh is easily countered by Achilles from ambush at long range (using hit and run tactics ability) or even by the 95mm Churchill.
Meaning that there is actually no point in deploying the Stuh at all...


Though, despite all this.. i don't really want to see the RE doctrine 17pdr emplacements nerfed so much.

- Nonetheless, the only thing is that the Maultier should finally start dealing some actual "damage" instead of "tickling" and without decreasing the Maultier barrage price or anything.
And remember Armor doc has better arty now...

And I think the accuracy of the 17pdr HE rounds as well as the efficiency of the Crusaders against airplanes, are both already tweaked on the beta.

- Last thing though, i think Comet can keep the current armor.. but in return less HP and flank speed ability should require some veterancy and not by default anymore.

That's all really.

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby crimax » 28 Nov 2017, 18:02

Reading the thread's title I was very interested to understand "what the hell" happened there ....

Well, imho, despite the right balancing problem with Comet and maybe the wrong chosen doctrines ..... there are simply some errors made and it doesn:t look like an "Unbalancing-Apocalypse" to me.

1) Luft player ... simply played as "camping style Luft doc".
- Where are the fights between ABs and Jebirgs/Fallsch?
- Where is infantry coverage for tanks during attacks or defences ?
- Where are the Luft infantry assaults to enemy emplacements?
- Pro style game battle. Really ?

OK maybe the rage is mostly caused by the defeat got by Wurf and Luft playing Allied. LOL (kidding)
Company Of Heroes is the 'water gun version' of Blitzkrieg Mod" (Heinz Wilhelm Guderian, 1939)

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Warhawks97 » 28 Nov 2017, 18:18

crimax wrote:Reading the thread's title I was very interested to understand "what the hell" happened there ....

Well, imho, despite the right balancing problem with Comet and maybe the wrong chosen doctrines ..... there are simply some errors made and it doesn:t look like an "Unbalancing-Apocalypse" to me.

1) Luft player ... simply played as "camping style Luft doc".
- Where are the fights between ABs and Jebirgs/Fallsch?
- Where is infantry coverage for tanks during attacks or defences ?
- Where are the Luft infantry assaults to enemy emplacements?
- Pro style game battle. Really ?

OK maybe the rage is mostly caused by the defeat got by Wurf and Luft playing Allied. LOL (kidding)


yeah. Actually.

@Tiger. Where did i say that you shall use TH vs AB? I said Bk with inf+ vehicles and aa tanks and sniper to shred ab, TH to stop armor and hotchkiss to shred emplacments. Or TH and luft doc.

Two ostwind in aa mode placed over the map should be able to knock out most planes. If thats not enough the one or other quad 20 mm could have been placed. About the 88 idk about its actually efficiency against planes. But it can shoot down planes instantly from far range if the gun is not turned to the complete opposite direction of the planes approach.

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Tiger1996 » 28 Nov 2017, 18:28

@Crimax
Remember that the video shows the battle from my own perspective. So you can't really see how the situation was on my mate's side who played as Luft doc. But exactly that's why i attached the replay file... Nonetheless, i think on the video we can still see that my mate was just good enough.. look how he saved me with his 28mm cars. So, you can't say that the Luft player was anything less than the skill level of his opponent. Teams were pretty much equal after all.

Neither did anyone say that it is a balancing apocalypse. It is nothing more than a disappointing game... The frustration also isn't caused as a result of losing against certain players in particular, but obviously because of the silly 17pdr emplacements and how they were too difficult to destroy although being rather cheap, quickly constructed and repaired extremely fast. Being also able to kill inf with their HE rounds.. not to mention how our planes were easily shot down, but their planes on the other hand were not, although both sides had similar AA units.

@Hawks
My point is if you choose TH doc, you can't protect urself against AB planes in any way. Even the flak 88s from Luft doc combined by Ostwinds, already couldn't. And when u compare that with Crusaders, it becomes even more questionable.
So, TH certainly would be even more vulnerable to airstriles...

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby seha » 28 Nov 2017, 19:33

reasons why i stopped playing bk since long time,

Henny wrote:Emplacements = NO COMMENT. GO SEE FOR YOURSELF. RE Engineers are magicians and they can produce and repair these emplacements at light speeds. LONG LIVE THE BRITISH EXPEDITIONARY FORCE, THE MOST OVERPOWERED FACTION TO GRACE BK MOD


Tiger1996 wrote:The frustration also isn't caused as a result of losing against certain players in particular, but obviously because of the silly 17pdr emplacements and how they were too difficult to destroy although being rather cheap, quickly constructed and repaired extremely fast. Being also able to kill inf with their HE rounds.. not to mention how our planes were easily shot down, but their planes on the other hand were not, although both sides had similar AA units.


in general bk is always in favor of *camp - bomb strategy* more than anything else. and for two exact doctrines to be certain , defensive and royal engineers.

but the british royal engineers are on top of it. build quickly, repair quickly, die slowly and cost nothing.

idealist camping.

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Shanks
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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Shanks » 28 Nov 2017, 19:45

I hope that THE DEVELOPERS do not do anything stupid with the crusaders, since the PE in the luft doctrine has VERY GOOD ANTI-AIR! BETTER THAN THE CRUSADERS! I HAVE REPETITIONS IF YOU WANT TO SEE IT!

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby MarKr » 28 Nov 2017, 19:47

seha wrote:in general bk is always in favor of *camp - bomb strategy* more than anything else. and for two exact doctrines to be certain , defensive and royal engineers.

but the british royal engineers are on top of it. build quickly, repair quickly, die slowly and cost nothing.

idealist camping.
4 factions, 12 doctrines in total and 2 of them are about static defenses - that is ~17% of doctrines...17% is a great representaton of what the mod is about "IN GENERAL" or what you'll "ALWAYS" see in a match. No doubt that having 2 out of 12 doctrines focused on defensive play style is "genuine camper heaven". :lol:
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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Shanks » 28 Nov 2017, 20:37

everything depends on how you play and the doctrines, it's obvious, it seems to me that everyone complains about allied planes, and they do not realize how strong are the planes of the axis ...a repetition for you, an example of the power of luft
replay 2v2
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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Tiger1996 » 28 Nov 2017, 20:55

@Seha
Generally, Bk Mod doesn't really favor camp/bomb tactics that much anymore, though... I would probably have to admit that it used to be the case in the past. However, the situation has now changed for the better.. and I also hope to see you playing Bk again after the Steam release.

Nonetheless, I guess you are absolutely right about 1 particular thing;
build quickly, repair quickly, die slowly and cost nothing.

This is just the best definition of "camping" if I might say so, and yes... RE doc is exactly all about this!

@Shanks
No one here complained about Allied airplanes being OP or Luft airplanes being weak... I only stated that the Crusader is simply OP against planes compared to other AA units in the game. And I'm already aware that Axis on the other hand also have some particular AA units which are OP as well, and therefore, I think both should be tweaked equally, which I think is what MarKr has already done on the beta by the way.


So, back to the point of this discussion... I would simply suggest 2 things; as I said, Maultier should finally deal some actual damage.. and the Comet should be nerfed a bit.. either by weakening the armor or by lowering the HP and making flank speed require some veterancy.
Anyone has problem with those 2 points? If not, then I hope those 2 points are considered before the Steam release...

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Shanks » 28 Nov 2017, 21:36

@Tiger:
as you were talking about the crusader, you seemed to say "luft sucks" but I apparently misunderstood you ... on the other hand I would like the maultier to leave with 60% HP at the emplacement of 17 lbs, with a single discharge, " in the doctrine of RE already with the improvement of emplacement ", and in RA of 70 to 75% of HP and I wish its could not use HE, the 17 lbs emplacement ..... and, the comet is fine as it is now, it is already very weak vs AT squads, and the hetzer can kill you with a single shot ... they also tell me that the Narshon is not offensive ... I do not think so ..., the narshon kills infantry and I do not think that when it advances it's the first unit to the front !! is very efficient in the advance, too, when there are craters in the battlefield of the enemy, you can camouflage there, also you have tanks like the jagdpanther that are very good on offense, so, for this reason , I do not think it's a good idea to modify something from the comet

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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Tiger1996 » 28 Nov 2017, 22:05

as you were talking about the crusader, you seemed to say "luft sucks" but I apparently misunderstood you ... on the other hand I would like the maultier to leave with 60% HP at the emplacement of 17 lbs, with a single discharge, " in the doctrine of RE already with the improvement of emplacement ", and in RA of 70 to 75% of HP and I wish its could not use HE, the 17 lbs emplacement

Hmm, I will just try to illustrate what you say or clarify it a bit to avoid further misunderstandings, as I actually found some difficulties reading this.
So, I think you are saying:

After the RE doc "improved empalcements" unlock, a single Maultier should deal about 60% damage to the 17pdr emplacement. And about 75% damage when the RE "improved empalcements" is not yet unlocked, and same for RA doc 17pdr empalcements.
You also wish that 17pdr empalcements should not have HE rounds at all...


This is what you mean?
If yes, then I agree... This is almost what I have been thinking too, if not.. then plz explain what exactly u mean.

Regarding the Comet though;
it is already very weak vs AT squads

Are you sure? ^^ If you watched the video, the Comet was actually able to bounce off a lot of PanzerShrecks...
Also it has HE rounds, and flank speed.. which means it can escape quickly.

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Shanks
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Re: Worst Defeat EVER

Postby Shanks » 28 Nov 2017, 23:24

17 lbs emplacement (libras:lbs:pounds):17 pdr, with sandbags and camouflage net,and I think that a discharge of the maultier should damage it in 75% or 70%, in the doctrine RA, to this emplacement, and in RE, in 60%, when it is improved...you understand me? maybe I express myself in an unconventional way in English,or maybe the google translator sucks hahahha,also abbreviated, pounds, but in Spanish,"lbs",sry

On the other hand, the comet is not the big thing, you tell me it has HE ... perhaps the tiger does not have it ???, the only difference would be the speed of flanking, which in my opinion, is fine .. ..you want to balance it against WM, and you'll end up making it useless vs. TH, or rather vs PE (vs all doctrines)

Now do you understand my point?


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