Power of Armor doc

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think this game here is a good example how Armor doc can be very aggressive and also overwhelming.

Allies:

Me -> Armor doc.

Frost -> RAF doc.

Axis:

EstadoMayor -> Terror doc (i think)

Bob -> Luft doc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XHlaV44Pjg

Video Thumbnail.

EnjoY!

[Frost]

In that game i couldnt stop laughing at jeep movement gg

[Viper]

i remember some people kept say 76 sherman is weak and armor doctrine is bad.

[Shanks]

yes, armor suck, in early and middle game vs BK...maybe, with the new changes, be better

[kwok]

76 still sort of is irrelevant with only a small window of helpfulness. Armor shines now because of the 90mm buff. Armor always had plenty of tools except against axis heavies. Being axis heavies used to dominate 80% of games, armor sucked. Now the meta changed cuz armor can stand against axis heavies and axis players haven’t adjusted to not using heavies. Now they just use super soldier luft and tank hunter because allied players have started finally being able to use armor doc.

PE is popular because of the AT gun fix which gives Pe openings immense power. If pe faces USA then USA has almost no answer to scout cars, only praying their at gun is placed passively enough and Pe player is dumb enough to run it into an ambush. Against Brit players, Brits are forced into atboys opening while PE has a choice of scout car or assault pios. Once at Guns are fixed and scout cars are actually counterable all will be good again

[sgtToni95]

Now they just use super soldier luft and tank hunter

*and rockets/arty?

[Warhawks97]

lol. Min 8:58: Boys AT vs Scout car. I thought that "no damage to low HP vehicle" got fixed. oO

The "Power of Armor doc" becomes pretty obvious at min 20-21. Calliope barraging the entire area without even harming a single 50 mm AT gun it was aiming at. The first sherman lost instantly slightly over 50% of its HP right away. When i saw it i knew why armor doc has always been so super frustrating to play. That doc shouldnt be named armor doc and instead "Paper and Glass doctrine".

Min 22: Thats why i like the changes to AT guns. Games arent locked down instantly just because there is a single small farting AT gun that shreds tanks quickly with no need to aim. Nice passive buff to armor. It was necessary for armor in general in BK.

As a small tip: When you advance this way with supporting engineers. Put a HT (with captain inside) behind them so that you can retreat and reinforce your engineers near the frontlines.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Thats why i like the changes to AT guns. Games arent locked down instantly just because..

100% agreed. I would maybe give ATgun crew cool-down ability for higher accuracy chance /or, just increased overal accuracy for ATguns, but in a core idea, this aiming time increasing worked very well in my eyes, nor less than handheld at weapon aiming time, few patches ago.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The "Power of Armor doc" becomes pretty obvious at min 20-21. Calliope barraging the entire area without even harming a single 50 mm AT gun it was aiming at.

You do realize that arty (in general) is so much dependent on luck factor, right? Sometimes you hit, sometimes not.. as simple as that, mate!

It's interesting though how you pointed out when the Calliope failed to kill the 50mm AT gun at around minute 20 but never mentioned anything about how also the Calliope has instantly killed another 50mm AT gun in a different attempt at minute 24:55 on the other hand... Therefore I wonder why did you only point at the Calliope failure moment but never said anything about the success moment the other way around.

The first sherman lost instantly slightly over 50% of its HP right away.

The same way, you mention how the 50mm AT gun soaked up 50% of the Sherman's health with one penetration (which I find very normal btw since the Sherman only costs 300 MP/30 F anyway) but at the same time.. you completely DODGED to mention how the same Sherman has managed to bounce off the Stugs's 75mm cannon at minute 26:00 So I'm still wondering, once again!

When i saw it i knew why armor doc has always been so super frustrating to play.

Wasn't it also frustrating for my opponent losing all his Stugs with just 1 or 2 shots by the way?! Would you also mind saying "Paper and Glass Stugs" Or?

[Warhawks97]

You do realize that arty (in general) is so much dependent on luck factor, right? Sometimes you hit, sometimes not.. as simple as that, mate!

Sure, but they dont have to spend CP, lots of MP and lots of ammo and high cooldown combined with severe unit limit and extremely short range. With nebler for example you just say: "Oh, i will try again in 30 seconds" or "ok, i shoot my second one", or "I build a new one for no cost", or "I will shoot from very far" and the CP question is not even in place.. And the 210 says anyway "I am a nuke". There is no CP, high MP cost or massive cooldowns.

It's interesting though how you pointed out when the Calliope failed to kill the 50mm AT gun at around minute 20 but never mentioned anything about how also the Calliope has instantly killed another 50mm AT gun in a different attempt at minute 24:55 on the other hand... Therefore I wonder why did you only point at the Calliope failure moment but never said anything about the success moment the other way around.

wow.... how often does it happen that you can place an arty tool so close to the enemie? One out of hundred times? Its a point blank shot and nontheless the pak almost escaped. In more normal combat situations like 3 vs 3 or so going so close with calli would be called a suicide (counter rockets, tanks etc)

The same way, you mention how the 50mm AT gun soaked up 50% of the Sherman's health with one penetration (which I find very normal btw since the Sherman only costs 300 MP/30 F anyway) but at the same time.. you completely DODGED to mention how the same Sherman has managed to bounce off the Stugs's 75mm cannon at minute 26:00 So I'm still wondering, once again!

Not that ive never seen it myself, just the chance that a 50 mm pens "just like that" is much higher as a 75 L/48 does not pen the sherman.

And AGAIN this cheap sherman is a Doctrinal Bonus(!) and shouldnt be a Requirment (!) to have cost effective Shermans. A Tank IV H/J is worth its cost anytime while the BK mass prod is a nice boost to it. Shermans are pointless, even at the point of mass production they are usless most of their time. It changes from "always useless" to "mostly useless".

Wasn't it also frustrating for my opponent losing all his Stugs with just 1 or 2 shots by the way?! Would you also mind saying "Paper and Glass Stugs" Or?

BC the stugs are way less ressistant to 76 guns than standard Tank IV J/H. If anything the 76 can be used against with something i could call "reliablity" then its stugs and early model Tank IV´s. Also they are totally CP free. But regarding stugs they are cheap no matter what doc you choose, unlike shermans.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Now they just use super soldier luft and tank hunter

*and rockets/arty?

You seem to be still very mad at that one hotchkiss, i know you mean it so i explain, it was se and th, ofc. th make one hotchkiss but it's slow paperarmored and ithink as said even the slowest unit ingame?:D and yeah se, wurf. ofc rain of rockets gonna drop on you like always a game vs se.

[Warhawks97]

Hotchkiss is the first available heavy rocket arty available in game. In fact its so far one of the first mechanized artillery units in game.

And people seem to underestimate it. Its gun is capable of knocking out any allied vehicle quickly which means, if you put it with your inf, you do have something that prevents your inf from being shred by stuff like recces. In addition, if upgraded, can quickly knock out nasty defenses and AT guns. As it stands with your inf, you dont fire from max range and thus the scatter keeps quite low.

If you take two, they will defend themselves against any attempt of the so called "Td rushes". Ive killed several M10´s that tried to kill my "defensless" hotchkiss. It can also survive a shot from US M10.

So you actually get:

1. A cheap
2. Anti vehicle light tank
3. that can crush any defenses with rockets
4. providing vehicle defense to you infantry
5. self defending heavy rocket artillery
6. without unit cap
7. in the very early stages of the game
8. without CP´s required

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Hotchkiss is the first available heavy rocket arty available in game. In fact its so far one of the first mechanized artillery units in game.

And people seem to underestimate it. Its gun is capable of knocking out any allied vehicle quickly which means, if you put it with your inf, you do have something that prevents your inf from being shred by stuff like recces. In addition, if upgraded, can quickly knock out nasty defenses and AT guns. As it stands with your inf, you dont fire from max range and thus the scatter keeps quite low.

If you take two, they will defend themselves against any attempt of the so called "Td rushes". Ive killed several M10´s that tried to kill my "defensless" hotchkiss. It can also survive a shot from US M10.

So you actually get:

1. A cheap
2. Anti vehicle light tank
3. that can crush any defenses with rockets
4. providing vehicle defense to you infantry
5. self defending heavy rocket artillery
6. without unit cap
7. in the very early stages of the game
8. without CP´s required

Awh you had to tell all? i tryed Keep it secret xD

[Shanks]

I'm not sure, it was only a stug III that shot the sherman; but what I'm sure of is that, stug IV can kill all sherman, and when I say "all", I also mean "Jumbo", your tanks were veterans, and they were with the sandbags too ... that requires a lot of time !, and if it a stug IV that shot, you had a looootttt of luuuuck.I sincerely think that if it were tiger1996 vs tiger1996, Bk would triumph lol

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Shanks
There was no any Stug.iii on this game, all of them are Stug.iv my friend.. also, if I play against myself as Armor doc vs Blitz doc... I think my Armor would definitely win. I prefer Armor doc over Blitz doc, as I believe that Blitz doc was actually nerfed to death!

@Hawks
I honestly don't like you when you are biased. I am not saying you are always biased, but here on this topic.. you gotta have to realize that you sound VERY biased my friend. And also wanting to see ONLY what you are ought to see. Rather than listing everything that has happened, you selectively picked only the scenes of failure moments while completely ignoring the success ones on the other hand, thinking that this way you can reinforce your claims that Armor doc is bad. Yet again, you continue with your bias rather than admitting it or correcting yourself!
As you seem pretty upset about the Calliope, stating that it's useless and costs a lot of command points, etc. While completely forgetting about other arty units such as the Walking Stuka for example which costs more command points, more ammo, and even more production cost, with also relatively long cool-down while also being very inaccurate sometimes. As I believe it's not seldom that the walking Stuka hits nothing or deals no damage whatsoever on direct hits, as it actually happens quite often that the Stuka barrage is also completely wasted for little to no damage at all.
Despite all these facts though, you still choose to come here on my thread and keep whining about "poor" Armor doc even when it is already steamrolling. Only god knows why you are doing that now!
No matter how far Armor doc keeps buffed over the time, unfortunately it seems like you would never give up with your bias calling it "poor" every single time. Please re-consider your thoughts before you post anything here next...

[sgtToni95]

Now they just use super soldier luft and tank hunter

*and rockets/arty?

You seem to be still very mad at that one hotchkiss, i know you mean it so i explain, it was se and th, ofc. th make one hotchkiss but it's slow paperarmored and ithink as said even the slowest unit ingame?:D and yeah se, wurf. ofc rain of rockets gonna drop on you like always a game vs se.

You seem to really need attention, here you are :*

[Shanks]

@Tiger 1996
Could you tell me what you mean by nerfed? quote 1x1 please

[Warhawks97]

@Tiger: Selectively? Whats so "powerfull" on a calli when it just manages to kill something at point blank. If the calli could load HE you would have saved lots of ammo and time by just driving a few meters forward and shoot that 50 mm.

Also, the Walking stuka is at least able to kill something which includes full HP tanks (what calli cant). On top of that it can be relocated quicker as the salvo ends earlier. It has, if you want, more range (just the fail rate is high then) and veterancy reduces scatter. A vet 3 stuka can be fired from max range with little scatter from a greater range than calli does. Basically, you get a bigger bang for the cost. The cooldown isnt as high as those of the calli.

The stugs were stug IV, yes, but so far they are equal to stug III except with different abilties. So technically the stug III is a cheaper and better sherman that comes earlier and able to kill tanks. If you dont play armor doc, you would have to spend at least 2 CP to get either a 76 sherman or M10.

You fought stugs with a jumbo most of the time that soak the damage. The shermans did little to the success. Stugs weakness are the low HP so you should make sure you make the first shot. But still, considering the cost (and CP) the cost efficiency clearly goes to the stug. If the stugs IV´s had vet 1, they would have camoed and shred your tanks for sure.

You had to spend 7 CP (?) to get what you had to fight early game stugs. 76 unlock, mass production and Jumbo. Its like spending all CP for panthers just to beat standard M4 shermans and saying "The Power of Panther".

[Shanks]

The stug IV, kills all the shermans, in position AT and AP!;too the "Jumbo"

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

*and rockets/arty?

You seem to be still very mad at that one hotchkiss, i know you mean it so i explain, it was se and th, ofc. th make one hotchkiss but it's slow paperarmored and ithink as said even the slowest unit ingame?:D and yeah se, wurf. ofc rain of rockets gonna drop on you like always a game vs se.

You seem to really need attention, here you are :*

I don't know if you have any idea what the Emotion for needing "Attention" mean's but... oh well, it was rather like a hint that you're are crying about the game. If you don't know how to Counter rocket's/arty so ask People if they can learn you how, it's more like you seeking "Attention" from dev's to nerf all rocket's just because you are not able to Counter it... searching the easier way:)



Remember the Phrase in this community Toni?: People lose to somethink ingame and come to Forum crying it's op?:D

[mofetagalactica]

PE doc's are so messed up somethimes.
>Choses tank hunter = has light tanks carrying powerfull artillery, "TANK HUNTER".
>Choses scorched earth (considerated a artillery + special infiltration units) = has NASHORS (??????????) able to one shot pershings, its like having better jacksons while being inf/ab doc.

Prices to start making tanks for USA/PE:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
USA:
Barracks - 150 MP/15 Fuel
Support center- 175/15 Fuel
Motor Pool - 250 MP/20 Fuel + Upgrade motor pool 50/30 Fuel
Supply Yard - 150 MP/50 Fuel (I think you can skip this but it's not recommended if you want to unlock 76's and jumbos)
Tank Depot - 300 MP/50 Fuel

Total = 1075 MP / 180 Fuel

Let's say that you want to unlock Jacksons and Pershings:

Upgraded Production Level I - 35 Fuel
Upgraded Production Level II - 40 Fuel (Armor Only)

Total = 1075 MP / 255 Fuel

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PE:
Kampfgruppe Kompanie - 150 MP/10 Fuel
Logistik Kompanie - 250 MP/25 Fuel
Panzer-Jager Kommand - 350 MP/50 Fuel
Infantry Support Center - 150 MP/10 Fuel

Total= 900 MP/95 Fuel

Let's also say that you want the full arsenal of tanks open not commonly seen after very late in game. ( if you're going for artillery and some pz IV (E,F) or panthers if you're luft)

Panzer-Support Kommand - 550 MP/60 Fuel

Total = 1450 MP / 155 Fuel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WEHR:
Escalate to Skirmish Phase- 50 MP/15 Fuel
Escalate to Assault Phase - 50 MP/30 Fuel
Escalate to Endsieg Phase - 75 MP/40 Fuel
Krieg Barracks - 300 MP/20 Fuel
Panzer Factory - 325 MP/50 Fuel
Heavy Panzer Factory - 400 MP/60 Fuel
Upgraded Production Panzer Factory - 75 Fuel

Total: 1200 MP/ 290 Fuel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMONWEALTH:
Lieutenant - 150 MP/15 Fuel
Field Support Truck - 250 MP/35 Fuel
Captain - 200 MP/30 Fuel
Armor Truck - 200 MP/50 Fuel
Cromwell Command Tank - 300 MP/70 Fuel

Total: 1100 MP/200 Fuel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like you to see, PE fuel cost being strange compared to other factions.


Edit: added wehr/british building final cost.

[idliketoplaybetter]

What about price difference for PE units in terms of individual unit build and reinforce? what about those upgrades u need for healing etc, regarding the ingame situation? upkeep difference?
low fuel maps are just bad, but keep laughing.

[sgtToni95]

Remember the Phrase in this community Toni?: People lose to somethink ingame and come to Forum crying it's op?:D

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2108

I do

Edit:

Didn't see this viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2363

I do

And again, where did i say rockets are OP? Did you read what I wrote or it's just what you want to see in my post? I said that was not fun game and i didn't even pick a doc cause that was only rockets.

[idliketoplaybetter]

and i didn't even pick a doc cause...

I know this feeling.

like 80% times when i get into 3v3 with mostly random dudes, and im not doing something pre-planned but rely on ingame situation, i get games like that.
Someone on the opposite side just sit back, plan do nothing but narrow arty game, and all the initiative for somewhat creative game for me just fades away..

[Warhawks97]

@mofeta: You cant skip the supply yard and its upgrades if you want to survive the late game. It reduces the upkeep of units. US starts of with the highest MP upkeep ending up with quite low one (slightly less than WH standard). In terms of fuel US tanks have twice the fuel consumption as axis tanks. Even after lowering the fuel upkeep it remains higher than those of axis tanks. They are probably Hybrid tanks build by Toyota (Fun fact: The Tiger prototype from Porsche had a hybrid engine but was too far ahead of its time and unsuited for the difficult war terrain and field repairs).

Axis in general are less fuel intense for effectively operating.

@Idlike: PE upgrades such as healing cost 150 MP and like 20 or 25 ammo. No fuel. US has to pay 300 MP. PE healing halftrack can be build as well and heals without any required upgrade. So in this matter you are quite flexible. The Reinforce had been much higher but with cost reduction the reinforce went down as well (reinforce cost is based on percentage of the build cost. If its not changed they go down together with build cost. The cheapest to reinforce combat unit are Volksgrenadiers being cheaper than standard Rifle squads.


This post is not meant to be pro or contra to something in this discussion. Just tried to eliminte false assumptions.