Power of Armor doc

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Power of Armor doc

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 29 Oct 2017, 14:36

My assumption was not false.

I was refering to a ManPower criteria too, and every upgrade there cost it.
It is very funny how he decided to simply count numbers and make plain comparision, though real games are not like that.
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mofetagalactica
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Re: Power of Armor doc

Postby mofetagalactica » 29 Oct 2017, 21:35

idliketoplaybetter wrote:My assumption was not false.

I was refering to a ManPower criteria too, and every upgrade there cost it.
It is very funny how he decided to simply count numbers and make plain comparision, though real games are not like that.


Even if you take that in count the MP difference its not high compared to the fuel difference. When you have a big gap in fuel like that it dosn't matter if you add a lit of "real game " into the formula. Simple numbers can say a lot too. Also as warkhaws said, he's right about the upkeep for usa being expensive.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Power of Armor doc

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 29 Oct 2017, 21:53

Point there was "quantity".

Being "twice expensive" in terms of Upkeep, but cheaper in basic cost, that is US concept. PE is different.

And if you consider that Manpower difference aint as that high, name me any basic US unit with reinforce price/upkeep 45+?


Real game factor here is that, unless you are harrassing PE opponent enough, he will never be able to reach anything "cheaper in numbers", but in fact, more expensive in practice. Simple as that.


p.s.
That is preety funny btw, how fuel/manpower dependancy switched sides from Axis+ fuel at vCoh/Allies+ map (manpower), to Axis+manpower/Allies+fuel at bkmod.
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mofetagalactica
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Re: Power of Armor doc

Postby mofetagalactica » 29 Oct 2017, 22:55

idliketoplaybetter wrote:Point there was "quantity".

Being "twice expensive" in terms of Upkeep, but cheaper in basic cost, that is US concept. PE is different.

And if you consider that Manpower difference aint as that high, name me any basic US unit with reinforce price/upkeep 45+?


Real game factor here is that, unless you are harrassing PE opponent enough, he will never be able to reach anything "cheaper in numbers", but in fact, more expensive in practice. Simple as that.


p.s.
That is preety funny btw, how fuel/manpower dependancy switched sides from Axis+ fuel at vCoh/Allies+ map (manpower), to Axis+manpower/Allies+fuel at bkmod.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Starting: 480mp/15 Fuel

Barracks - 150 MP/15 Fuel
+
Riflemen - 240 MP Reinforce Cost: 24

Weapons Support Center - 175 MP/15 Fuel
+
Rangers - 360 MP Reinforce Cost: 30
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Starting: 480mp/15 Fuel

Panzergrenadiers - 325 MP Image Reinforce Cost: 28

Kampfgruppe Kompanie - 150 MP/10 Fuel
+
Panzergrenadiers - 325 MP Reinforce Cost: 28
Assault Pioneers - 360 MP Reinforce Cost: 30
Assault Grenadier Heavy Infantry - 380 MP Image Reinforce Cost: 34
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And remember that you also start with a riflemen squad as PE too (aka panzergranediers). So sorry to say but, Quantity for basic inf like US dosn't exist you can spam the same amount of units while using PE, while they're better in stats.

P.S. I dont know why you went over the MP talk since, the main problem was the fuel difference compared to everybody.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Power of Armor doc

Postby Warhawks97 » 30 Oct 2017, 02:40

That so called "US spam" comes actually into effect in the late games and only when you managed to preserve enough early-mid game units. But realistically, unless axis are sitting on a shitload of ressources just to get their "heavies" out and instead relying on basics (like US) like volks, vehicles, medium tanks etc. you can easily field the same ammount of units, if not more. (talking about mixed WH/PE and US/CW games)

So the pure "believe" that US "has always more units" makes players to focus on heavy and elite units as "sole solution" against the believed "spam".

Also the problem with US as "quantity" faction is that its not really a "quantity" faction but instead a "doctrinal one unit type spam faction", throwing all the time the same mess against various threats. And this is the actual problem. If we would have quanity as faction idea, not doctrinal, it could finally make quantity working in BK. That means that instead doctrinal one unit super build cost drops, the entire faction would receive small cost drops on all units by upgrading buildings regardless what doctrine is choosed. Doctrines would here grant just access to more specialized units instead dropping cost of one unit type massively.

As a faction, US isnt about quantity. Thats a fact and then only on the veeeery long hand and by carefully preserving enough units (which isnt easy in outraging battles and nonstop arty barrages, planes, inf rushes and tank engagments). Its just a doctrinal one unit spammer which is usless due to the BK damage system and very deadly specialized counter units. In voch, the BK armor doc would work by just spamming super many shermans, but not in BK.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Power of Armor doc

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 30 Oct 2017, 07:44

mofetagalactica wrote:I dont know why you went over the MP talk since



Well ye, excluding that would make even "more" sense, for whatever reasons you are doing this counting at all..

You can't explain gameplay imbalance (if there is any regarding subject), since factions are based on different concepts. They are not meant to "Spend" the same amounts for anything.
The only reasonable bottom line here should be that - low fuel map sucks.



Warhawks97 wrote: But realistically, unless axis are sitting on a shitload of ressources


That was my point on reverse economics of bkmod/vcoh too.
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mofetagalactica
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Re: Power of Armor doc

Postby mofetagalactica » 30 Oct 2017, 20:34

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
mofetagalactica wrote:I dont know why you went over the MP talk since



Well ye, excluding that would make even "more" sense, for whatever reasons you are doing this counting at all..

You can't explain gameplay imbalance (if there is any regarding subject), since factions are based on different concepts. They are not meant to "Spend" the same amounts for anything.
The only reasonable bottom line here should be that - low fuel map sucks.


No it dosn't make sense because you have a default income of like +300 playing with axis, its not like you start with fuel income dude. Didn't you notice how PE has more chances to comeback and hold in their base when they lost 95% of the map compared to allies? Well i think it can be because they have expended less fuel to get tier after tier.


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