Games on "Revised" Maps

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kwok
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Games on "Revised" Maps

Postby kwok » 30 Aug 2017, 21:00

Some people think that the issue of artillery is the abundance in munition points, which is partially true... So here's a replay on a "revised" map where supposedly the map should be "fixed" of issues including arty balance.

small 'revised' arty fest.rec
(2.03 MiB) Downloaded 7 times


If you haven't figured out by the file name, the game turned into a flat arty fest.
So while it is slightly true that a lot of munitions encourages artillery... it's not the primary reason I think.

Eventually I "persuaded" (I'll be honest in a bit rude way) to make a rematch on a large map that was not revised so it had the original high munition points. The game ended faster than it's worth sharing with axis marching straight through allied lines, but definitely not to arty camping.

Guys... come on. Let's play bigger maps.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Games on "Revised" Maps

Postby Warhawks97 » 30 Aug 2017, 21:02

pls upload the other as well. Even if its straight, show the world how straight it was and how it was managed.

kwok
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Re: Games on "Revised" Maps

Postby kwok » 30 Aug 2017, 21:09

Ok lemme see if I still got the temp file. I think I might played one game in between... but can't quite remember

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Shanks
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Re: Games on "Revised" Maps

Postby Shanks » 30 Aug 2017, 23:43

Warhawks97 wrote:pls upload the other as well. Even if its straight, show the world how straight it was and how it was managed.


This is the other game

Note:Maybe playing with sniper is not a camper game.. :shock:
Attachments
relic00038.jpg
8p_operation goodwood (8).2017-08-30.15-55-00.rec
(857.12 KiB) Downloaded 1 time
"The one who advances is attacking and the one who defends is camper, but I do not see a problem in this. If you complain about someone who is camper, you can also be camper ... The team that makes less mistakes will win.Logical :lol: "

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Playmobill
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Re: Games on "Revised" Maps

Postby Playmobill » 31 Aug 2017, 00:32

For 'revised' maps, most of the work was focused on:
- pure debug
- sector balance (for example when a team has access to twice more fuel quicker than the other team)
- optimisation (when the older version was lacking it, example: LaChaudiere)
- fixing major pathfinding issues (sometime deep rework of the map and its pathfinding, example: LaFiere with removal or 80% of flooded areas)
- VP numbers & positionning (when VP are moved in a revised map, it is after mesuring pathfinding distance with closest HQ's, so its fair for both teams to access it from spawns)

I tryed to keep the amount/proportion of ressources as close as cloe as possible as the original one, but after bringing it back to acceptable limits, because to me it was kind of the limit of 'revision' at that time: some players played this or that map because of this or that ressource.. so i was trying to not denature maps if you see what i try to explain.

But globaly, i'd say small maps suffer way more of any balance issues than big maps, because you don't have any margin to play with in small maps, everything is so quick and unforgiving.

___________


Edit: downloading the replay so i can see which map was the trouble. i'll edit again my post after watching the replay, to explain what the revision was focused on in this particular map.

___________


Edit²: Oh ok.. Road to Cherbourg.
Well this was a minor revision of the map. This one was more focused on sector balance (regarding team & sector accessibility, not ressource wise) & fixing major pathfinding issues.

Btw this map will receive a small patch very soon, but not regarding ressource balance (too bad i didnt saw ur post before validating the next patch on this map :( ).
update this time is about minor pathfinding bug and issues, aswell as minimap rework and weather (removal of the storm as default weather).
Last edited by Playmobill on 31 Aug 2017, 00:58, edited 3 times in total.
" No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country. "
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Tiger1996
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Re: Games on "Revised" Maps

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 Aug 2017, 00:50

kwok wrote:Some people think that the issue of artillery is the abundance in munition points, which is partially true... So here's a replay on a "revised" map where supposedly the map should be "fixed" of issues including arty balance.

Maps such as Road To Cherbourge had a number of high munition points, +16 ammo points I mean. Those were brought down to only +10 in the revised version, as we often completely avoid placing any kind of high ammunition points. And doing such a thing only helps to reduce the amount of arty throughout such arty fest games.. nonetheless, no one ever said that this would completely fix balance issues regarding arty. If players insist to camp and use arty, nothing can stop them! Not even big maps btw, although they might be helping a little.. as big maps may just reduce the efficiency of arty, but not much more than that either.

kwok wrote:So while it is slightly true that a lot of munitions encourages artillery... it's not the primary reason I think.

So ya. It's not a solution to the problem but rather an improvement... That's the point of revised maps. And map revisions surely include both the smaller and bigger maps all at once. And when new maps are added, the size of the map is considered.. but also beside other factors too! As there is no reason to exclude a perfectly working map just because it might be a little small.

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Playmobill
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Re: Games on "Revised" Maps

Postby Playmobill » 31 Aug 2017, 00:58

Tiger1996 wrote:Maps such as Road To Cherbourge had a number of high munition points, +16 ammo points I mean. Those were brought down to only +10 in the revised version, as we often completely avoid placing any kind of high ammunition points. And doing such a thing only helps to reduce the amount of arty throughout such arty fest games.. nonetheless, no one ever said that this would completely fix balance issues regarding arty. If players insist to camp and use arty, nothing can stop them!

That is true.
I forgot that we removed +16 ammo on this one, so i guess it was even worst on the old version
_____________

NOTE: If you guys want to help us to revise maps regarding what you think is a ressource balance issue, your help is very welcome, name the map, explain what ressource is imbalanced to your pov, and why (you can include pics). We will see if its fixable or not, this will help us to prioritize for later patches, thanks by advance.
" No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country. "
George S. Patton

kwok
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Re: Games on "Revised" Maps

Postby kwok » 31 Aug 2017, 02:13

Hm, it was advertised different in lobbies I've played in. Thanks for the clarification playmobil. Welp, my quest to get everyone on bigger maps continues...
Playmobil, for future map fixes, would you consider removing player counts on the maps? I've done it for some myself but I couldn't get replacing the spots with strategy points working just how I wanted to. What are your thoughts on doing that for your map fixes?

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Playmobill
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Re: Games on "Revised" Maps

Postby Playmobill » 31 Aug 2017, 03:41

'player count' ? what do you mean ? change the number of players ?

Technicaly, it is not so hard to do when u know the little trick to not loose sector layout, BUT we really have to take in account other parameters like optimisation or avaliable locations for new spawns, and map size for player confort..

Obviously, a map optimised for 1 player (solo) can be risky to put in MP, a good example is Goodwood : this map was built by Relic with Solo in mind, and is clearly not optimized for 4v4, despite i did what i could to save the day on it..
..But on the other hand they also made solo maps like LaFiere, which have been 'easier' (hem) to convert into 3v3, and could probably support a 4v4 aswell, optimisation wise.
" No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country. "
George S. Patton

kwok
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Re: Games on "Revised" Maps

Postby kwok » 31 Aug 2017, 08:02

What I mean is removing 2 players (one on each side) for maps. That way the map isn't so cramped and scales with the BK ranges. I've done this with some maps and I felt it turned out great, I don't think the people I shared the maps with even noticed it was adjusted until I pointed it out and there was a vast empty space in one area.

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Playmobill
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Re: Games on "Revised" Maps

Postby Playmobill » 31 Aug 2017, 21:54

well, for this no need to edit the map, just closing the slots we don't want i guess ;)
" No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country. "
George S. Patton

kwok
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Re: Games on "Revised" Maps

Postby kwok » 01 Sep 2017, 03:39

yeah.... but humans who play believe if there's a closed slot then it's the "wrong way to play". It's like they create these rules that is "the right way to play" even though devs say explicitly otherwise. It's like "basebombing" is a rule that everyone just makes up and say is the right way.


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