Intense Dynamic 2 vs 2

[Warhawks97]

Hello folks.

Another 2 vs 2. But i am so rusty... wrong build order and too late tier up.

However. Vehicle and inf spam vs inf and pak spam.

Me BK doc
Lehr TH doc

Wurf and and another guy AB and armor.

Quite intense game from the beginning till the end.

If you wonder why i went for Tank IV then it was because we planned BK/Luft combo for rushing. But then decided TH because of armor doc.
So we lacked fuel and both went armor, thats why we got in trouble a bit.

However, axis armor won the day.


And this is the reason why i would dream of a battlegroup call in for armor doc. When i lack res with BK doc i simply use that call in a few times to fill the ranks. No matter if i am low on ammor or fuel. Just like in other games with call in simply keeps me alive.

anyways. Enjoy.

[Mr. FeministDonut]

Good game.
The PZ4 suprisingly ended it quick

[Shanks]

As I always said, stug III and IV, are very strong, look when the "Jumbo" comes out the 27th minute, I think, was not able to finish the stug IV (I know it was rank two, but not even so,Jumbo shot 2 times) and stug III almost kills him, I think if I had used the AT position, I would have won the stug III. And then they tell me that the Jumbo is better than the IV stug. Lolololol. But it was a good game, this game was already defined before the Jumbo
The Stug IV even I easily kill to a AT of 76 mm of USA, shortly before that comes the Jumbo
The e8, did not do much against the "H" also
And then say, OP allies, do not make jokes, lololololol

Epic

[Krieger Blitzer]

Good game.
The PZ4 suprisingly ended it quick

I have no idea why u didn't also pick AB or maybe inf doc, this map has almost no fuel at all for Armor doc.

[Warhawks97]

I would have choosed armor as well. If he would have taken inf and AB lehr would have taken luft. Early Gebirgs, Puma, mortar ostwind.... GG

Trust me. Did that like a billion times against double us. Armor was smart. Forced me to tier up towards panther and lehr to get some better AT.... vs inf i would have simply got officer faster, ostwind and yeah.... you know the story.

And dude, we both, lehr and me, we both "choosed fuel". From allied side just one guy did. And still we made it this way.

As I always said, stug III and IV, are very strong, look when the "Jumbo" comes out the 27th minute, I think, was not able to finish the stug IV (I know it was rank two, but not even so,Jumbo shot 2 times) and stug III almost kills him, I think if I had used the AT position, I would have won the stug III. And then they tell me that the Jumbo is better than the IV stug. Lolololol.

Never been afraid of that Jumbo. I killed countless of them by simply overwhelming them with Volks and faust, tank IV rush and schrecks. I dont bother losing one...Can you imagine that it was once easier? (better pen vs jumbo, worse pen vs tank IV)

Same for US AT guns... the heavy once. I often rushed them with double Tank Iv losing non of them or simply sending Puma first or even a bike. The pak will most likely fail to hit them and so waste a shot.

And here comes another filthy thing. If you try that with US by using Greyhound or M20 paired with sherman the 75 mm will get you still. The vehicle but also the shermans that follow, complete massacre. (trust me, i tried the tactics against them as well but always got a bloody nose)
In return, the US 76 will most of the time fail to hit the sdkfz 234.

Unambushed US 76 mm at gun has a 31,98% chance to hit a moving Sdkfz 234
Ambushed 47,97%..... so that tactic works very often.

Unambushed Axis 75 mm AT gun vs moving M20 or M8 Greyhound: 52%
Ambuhsed: 78%


So you can pretty easily rush arround the map with the 234 (what i usually do). The 37 mm needs three hits to kill, the 57 quite often two his (in last games always two), the 76 will simply not hit. So the 234 series is extremly abusable. Esspecially those with 20 mm and 75 mm main gun. Both shred all vehices that want to pursue them with ease (eg greyhound)

And this is another shitty thing i keep seeing all day long from game to game. Get once into range with filthy greyhound or M20 of any axis AT gun and you are dead, just like that. But Pumas are excellent to overcome AT guns...low chance to get hit, can stand a shot and the turret turns so fast that this unit is more than ideal to rush AT guns. M20 etc would afterall turn their gun slowly to the AT gun and its crew.


That are small, often unnoticed things. But their impact are so severe. I abuse that Puma/Tank IV combo against any US since i can remember playing BK. And since 2012 or (when i started doing that) till nowadays it has kept the same. Either two puma and one tank Iv or vise versa. Depending what i am expecting to face after AT guns are rushed.

On top of that the axis 75 mm reloads significantly faster (4.28 to 545 sec) as the US one (6-7 sec). So they reload/aim longer and still aint hit shit.

But it was a good game, this game was already defined before the Jumbo
The Stug IV even I easily kill to a AT of 76 mm of USA, shortly before that comes the Jumbo
The e8, did not do much against the "H" also
And then say, OP allies, do not make jokes, lololololol

And this is so frustrating when i play as US (and no smart CW guy in sight). WH sends early these combo of Puma and Tank IV H/J against you (long before any numerous advantage can be in effect from US side and long before the supply yard pays off) and you are so badly forced into defense. Most effective over the time was AT squad with M6A3C so far. But generally the only way to stop them halfway reliable for US is M10 or 76 mm AT gun and then only with ambush. But ambush is just to counter, not attacking so far. So you lose quite often any taken initiative except your opponent is a pure fool and lost really everything.

I explain what you have seen here:


Jumbo vs stug with skirts: 70% pen chance from max range
Jumbo vs tank IV H/J skirts: 49,68%
E8 vs Tank IV H/J skirts: 49,68%
Stug or Tank IV H/J vs Jumbo: 24,97% pen chance
Stug or Tank IV H/J vs E8: 69,67%


Keep in mind that stug and tank IV reloa d in 4,5-5.5 seconds. US 76 sherman guns every 7 seconds.

Keep also in mind that the stug reloads faster as the US 76 gun. Which has 6-7 sec as well (axis 75 mm has 4.28 to 5.45 seconds)


So i was a bit lucky here and there. But at this stage of the game you can even outnumber US armors 76 shermans. And thats what i did in this game and in many many battles before.

However, when people tell me that a tank is a reliable counter to another tank i would expect that at least more than 50% of the basic shots will penetrate it. And this is not the case when it comes to 76 US guns vs tank IV. I can counter only the Tank IV F2 (Terror, luft doc) with a 67,5% chance to penetrate it.

I would wish that the 76 Gun of US would penetrate the tank IV H/J skirted with a (almost) 60% chance from max range. The unskirrted J with approx 65% or more.

Considering the early appearance of tank IV´s usually, lower upkeep at this time and the J for 380 MP in 30 or 35 fuel in next patch.

It would simply be nice to see that the 76 guns on tanks would somehow be an reliable tool start engagments (not just to wait untill he opens it) with tank IV´s. So that you would not lose the initiative this fast by being forced to set up M10´s and 76 AT guns into ambush positions.

[Shanks]

If I did not understand you wrong, you say that armor is forced to play more defensive vs. BK doctrine, and that is exactly what I always question, because it is difficult to move long and maintain the territory, when it is armor vs. BK

[Warhawks97]

Well.

I had countless of games with Bk vs armor and the other way arround. Before the 76 mm and 75 mm gun changes (that boosted the allied 76 a bit vs axis 75 while 75 got bit weaker vs sherman and esspecially jumbo which still has approx 25% pen chance vs jumbo without special AP rounds or ambuhs etc).

But if you havent failed entirely and the Puma alive when Tank IV´s arrive to the battlefield, you can pretty much dominate US armor and force them to stay defensively in ambush.

Because at that time they are far away from any supply yard advantage.

You will get in trouble when you have wasted 2-3 Tank IV´s without killing any of their armor. Coz then they are going to get more and better units and you will never again match them


The main mistake axis players do here is to play there "Panther Meta" thinking its best vs armor doc. Panther is the answer to pretty much anything allied throw at you. But armor doc is the only US doc which has a particular strenght against heavy armor (or lets say, better as AB or inf).

When you go with BK doc vs US armor or CW the worst thing you can do is trying to rush for Panthers. Not saying its absolutely wrong to get a Panther. But you decide the game against them with Tank IV´s (vs cw stroms and tank IV).

And thats what most just dont get. They go for Panthers and wonder how they get killed by 90 mm guns and 17 pdrs.
Axis get tank IV long barreld significantly earlier with higher efficiency than US get their 76 tanks. But the way from 76 sherman to 90 mm Jackson is much shorter as the way from Panzer IV to Panther.


Thats what you must keep in mind.

I would also choose Bk doc over terror against armor even though the Panther G from terror is way better than Panther A from BK doc. But you cant beat armor doc with tank IV when playing Terror doc.



At first it looks like a contradiction. But time and the time of availablity of certain units is much more important as the simple fact that a doc has unit x or y.


Playing with BK doc against armor, timing is everything.

[kwok]

Agreed with hawks plus more. Stugs pretty handle everything just fine without the price of a panther. They are available so early as well. Less forgiving but that means nothing if you have skill. The only thing stugs can't stop are Pershings. But who uses them? Pft.
I've seen people use them more as a flair unit than a real viable core unit which it deserves. You hit spot on with the Panther meta Warhawks. Actually Warhawks was probably the person who got me to use stugs prolifically way back when. Now buckle up for the people who are about to come in saying "I use stugs all the time".