9999999999999999999999 royal engineer emplacement...

[Panzerblitz1]

Will see, we will discuss that HE problem for emplacements.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Will see, we will discuss that HE problem for emplacements.

Alright, but here we didn't only talk about HE rounds for AT emplacements.. but also the ordinary 76mm and 17pdr AT guns!
They are as deadly, since they can ambush too.. and are also mobile; So maybe consider having a look at them too... And I am fine with whatever results anyway Thanks.

[sgtToni95]

So the problem switched from emplacements spam to HE ammo on AT guns: that might be a problem but i think spamming 37mm paks with HE ammo would be quite effective too. It's true in early game you don't have that much ammo, but that has a bigger range than canister shot, it's a timed ability allowing you to shot many times, and killing inf in early game might doom your opponent.

In that game your opponent was only using emplacements on a narrow map, and PE player invested on tank destroyers which almost had to face no tanks but only AT guns and infantry. That's like seeing it's gonna rain, so you go buy more sunglasses.

If you saw how first game phases were going, churchills got wrecked by jpIV/70, hotchkiss rockets were reliably destroying anything they hit (AT emplacements included) and i bet RE player had no MP to do anything more. Little after, when JT appeared, brit player had nothing to stop it: it was destroying tanks and emplacements, killing inf (with support) and nothing was penetrating it (apart from tulips maybe).

If you really played that on a decent map with some space to manouver and where AA has some time to be effective i bet that game would have gone very differently: you probably didn't notice, but when JT came out, allies player were suffering so much from it, and they started complaining about it being OP and impenetrable. On a different map such a unit can turn the game flow on its own.

I'm not saying HE shells on 17 pdrs and 76mm are untouchable, i wouldn't mind them being removed to even the situation: they kind of reduce mgs/ mg nests need (they're unlockable/droppable for AB) by letting AT guns work as Flak 88s but with a much shorter range (quote from Tiger:"those fking 76 AT guns.. seriously, HE rounds???!!! Wiping out whole StormTroop squads!", just wanted to say welcome to the club bro ).
Axis AT guns don't have HE rounds, true (if you exclude 37 mm which, quote from "recent balance" topic referring to Boys AT, "i've seen wiping entire inf squads" ), but they still have leig18 reward unit, available to every WH doctrine, which can even be used quite effectively against emplacements too, and Gebirs can drop one of them anywhere on the map. It's not exactly the same thing, but that's something you did not considered and i'd like to bring out and allies only pure HE gun is field gun for RAF, which is only one doc.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The problem didn't switch though, but from the beginning; i kept pointing at 2 specific issues.. which are the HE rounds for such high caliber guns as well as the RE doc emplacements spam! Danikas made a good point too when he pointed out that Stukas for some reason keep targeting only sandbags or roadblocks and tank traps instead of bombing emplacements...
And the 1000kg bomb deals very low damage against trenches btw.

I think the LeiG.18 is not an option for WH, as it replaces the most important AT unit WH has.. which is the 50mm AT gun. If I remember correctly, not long ago there was even a topic made by EstadoMayor where he suggested that the LeiG.18 should no longer be a reward unit... For that very reason. As you can't really risk going without the 50mm Pak38. Otherwise it would be more or less a suicide against Quad HT and Recce. Not to mention that the LeiG.18 is actually useless against emplacements due to its relatively short range! And the arty barrage does very little damage compared to other 75mm howitzers from AB or inf docs. RAF howitzer on the other hand has MUCH wider range, more like a 17pdr.

But after all it's still good to see that you are fine with removing HE rounds for such high caliber guns.

[Danikas]

Agreed about LeiG.18 you have to be suicidal to choose it instead of pak .

[MarKr]

OK, finished the whole replay and my original oppinion stands. Shitty map pick, favoring docs with planes and campy play style which allies used to their advantage. Unfortunate doc pick on Axis side vs docs Allies picked. I don't even think HE shot on AT guns needs nerfing because you can always (well, you could if you didn't play on narrow map) approach with infantry from side so the AT would need to turn around and before it does that, you would kill it.
I know I don't understand the and all, but even when you had mortars and knew the emplacements are there, there was no smoke. 19:15 Tiger had mortar team, kept shooting damage rounds on emplacements but never used smoke on emplacemets when he was approaching with infantry or vehicles. Same later when Lehr build Mortar HT...we added the smoke rounds to for a reason.
Another thing I notied was that around half of the game you guys managed to destroy the middle 17 pounder emplacement several times and then...nothing. No follow up. You complain that RE can rebuild the emplecements fast but you really gave them all the time they needed. When you destroyed the emplacement, why didn't you sent some attack force in? It really happened like 3 times - emplacement destroyed, your squad either died or retreated and no other unit exploited the gap in their defense.
And for fucks sake...Lehr brings Jagdtiger, you know that it is your best bet to cut through the emplacements (even allies in their chat were like "wtf" that thing is impenetrable), you know that it can be killed by allied strongest guns from rear OR by planes, you know opponent has planes, then where the hell is ANY AA unit near your JT? I watched Tiger's resoures, you afford to build 2 Ostwinds without a problem....but no, 1st JT destroyed by planes. 2nd JT the same.
Another thing I noticed by the time the second JT arrived - on Lehr's half of the map were about 5 17 pounder emplacements while on Tiger's half he mostly dealt with US 76mm guns. Why did Lehr try to push through the emplacements at any cost? if he took his JT and JP to Tiger's side, combined these units with Tiger's Panter and Tiger there would be considerable attack force and it is not like the RE player can move the emplacements...

So I think their won was deserved.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I had average amount of MP, and probably a lot of fuel. But no ammo... I needed more ammo to upgrade Ostwind with HE, and to upgrade StormTroops, or to activate trades and also to upgrade Tigers and Panthers with necessary equipment. However, I can't deny I should have kept spamming more AA. Nonetheless, I was kinda frustrated already and felt the game was silly after I have seen how incredibly fast they could build emplacements, even killing a single Quad AA emplacement.. was too hard.

It's true Lehr could have moved his JT to my side.. but then his side would be completely exposed. And I can't move to his side in return, because my tanks can't do shit against emplacements. Not to mention that the RE doc player would have quickly built as many emplacements on my side if Lehr had moved his JT to that side. As it's true how emplacements can't move... But they are literally able to build a whole defensive line at once. Anytime when needed.
As I even had 2 Pz.IV.H tanks attacking at some point. I stopped to repair; but then he quickly built a 17pdr emplacement right in front of me. He can build it faster than I could even notice! And if I FINALLY succeed killing any of these emplacements.. he would just build them again and again. I felt the whole game was pointless to be honest...
Such sim-city tactics aren't good for game-play specifically when such magic is used. How could they build such powerful AT gun emplacements which are also hard to kill, in just no time??? And I had the same problem against air-dropped 76 AT guns. If you kill them... They are immediately dropped again, in such high numbers. Constantly pushing me back...
I even killed 2 AT guns using my off-map mortar barrage with my leader Storm squad, but then what??
He simply dropped them AGAIN, in absolutely no time. And even when I try to rush with inf... HE rounds and BOOM, inf dead.

[MarKr]

Nonetheless, I was kinda frustrated already and felt the game was silly after I have seen how incredibly fast they could build emplacements, even killing a single Quad AA emplacement.. was too hard.

Use smoke, don't play narrow maps...RE built 3 17 pounder emplacements and covered from vehicles the entire middle section - would not happen on bigger map, especially not narrow map.

It's true Lehr could have moved his JT to my side.. but then his side would be completely exposed.

Exposed to what exactely? Few infantry squads and few tanks? OK, place there one HMG + keep there the JP in ambush and move JT to your part and you provide cover.

And I can't move to his side in return, because my tanks can't do shit against emplacements.

I haven't said a single word about you moving to him.

Not to mention that the RE doc player would have quickly built as many emplacements on my side if Lehr had moved his JT to that side. As it's true how emplacements can't move... But they are literally able to build a whole defensive line at once. Anytime when needed.

Yeah, as if JT gave a single shit about 17 pounders shooting its frontal armor XD JT would punch through, your Tigers and Panters would cover any flanking attemps from sides and 1-2 Ostwinds would over Air.

As I even had 2 Pz.IV.H tanks attacking at some point. I stopped to repair; but then he quickly built a 17pdr emplacement right in front of me. He can build it faster than I could even notice!

again - narrow map where 3 AT emplacements cover it all. Bigger map is harder to spam with emplacements everywhere.

And if I FINALLY succeed killing any of these emplacements.. he would just build them again and again.

Where was some follow-up? Literary every time you destroyed an emplacement, you retreated and sent nothing in. So you actually provided the time to rebuild the stuff.

It is just you like more the play style where neither side camps too hard and when you run into a camper, you just don't like it bause all your attempts to break the the line are costly because of losses. You have ways to deal with this play style. The fact that you don't use them is hardly a balance issue.

[Krieger Blitzer]

There is no real balance issue, i kinda agree. But it's more about "silly" and "ridiculous" tactics involved in the game-play. I would say it's absolutely frustrating to see how he could build those AT emplacements soooo fast.. even meanwhile we already advance!
It's like he doesn't even have to "build" or "construct" them, but more like he is instantly "planting" such indestructible emplacements.

Anyways, I would be fine if you could probably just find a way to prevent Stuka patrol from targeting sandbags, roadblocks or tank traps at all. And they should also entirely smash any trenches with 1 hit... I think we agree that bombing sandbags would be silly.

But back to the topic, HE rounds should be just removed from AT guns; both emplacements and ordinary 17pdr and US 76mm AT guns.
There are a lot of ways to protect AT guns already, they literally don't need HE rounds. It's just too much!

Though, it's your call at the end.

[MarKr]

There is no real balance issue, i kinda agree. But it's more about "silly" and "ridiculous" tactics involved in the game-play. I would say it's absolutely frustrating to see how he could build those AT emplacements soooo fast.. even meanwhile we already advance!
It's like he doesn't even have to "build" or "construct" them, but more like he is instantly "planting" such indestructible emplacements.

I would agree with silly and frustrating IF there was no way for you to take them down. There are ways, you don't use them, you get frustrated. We are not going to change stuff just beause people don't use counters.

Anyways, I would be fine if you could probably just find a way to prevent Stuka patrol from targeting sandbags, roadblocks or tank traps at all. And they should also entirely smash any trenches with 1 hit... I think we agree that bombing sandbags would be silly.[/quote]This is another thing - you noticed which things Stukas target, Danikas noticed that obviously too. Why is there no report about this in Bug section or Suggestion section? Or is it there and I just overlooked it? Anyway yes, Stukas are meant to go mainly after emplcaments and trenches. Sandbags and roadblocks should not be targetted and the bomb should destroy emplacements in one run. I'll have a look at it.

But back to the topic, HE rounds should be just removed from AT guns; both emplacements and ordinary 17pdr and US 76mm AT guns.
There are a lot of ways to protect AT guns already, they literally don't need HE rounds. It's just too much!

I don't see a reason to remove the HE from the guns. Maybe longer CD on the ability but removal seem unneccessary. AT guns have limited cone of fire. Attack with infantry outside of it and they will need to turn, which takes time for them and gives time to you to close in.

[Panzerblitz1]

Agree with MArk on this.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I would agree with silly and frustrating IF there was no way for you to take them down. There are ways, you don't use them, you get frustrated. We are not going to change stuff just beause people don't use counters.

There are ways to take them down, but this doesn't deny that "planting" emplacements instead of "constructing" them; is in fact silly.

Anyway yes, Stukas are meant to go mainly after emplcaments and trenches. Sandbags and roadblocks should not be targetted and the bomb should destroy emplacements in one run. I'll have a look at it.

Ok :)

I don't see a reason to remove the HE from the guns. Maybe longer CD on the ability but removal seem unneccessary. AT guns have limited cone of fire. Attack with infantry outside of it and they will need to turn, which takes time for them and gives time to you to close in.

HE rounds have limited range and cone of fire, but don't forget that this "short range" is actually equal to the Shreck range as well as grenades too. You can flank them, but ordinary AT guns can ambush... So they work as anti inf too! I don't think AT guns are supposed to be inf killers in any possible way. Not to mention that the Axis 75mm Pak is actually more expensive than the US 76mm AT gun, but it doesn't have HE rounds on the other hand.. just saying.