Shit 3v3

[sgtToni95]

MAP: Red Ball Express

ALLIES: Me - RAF
General Belisar -Armor
6th Airborne - RAF

AXIS: Idliketoplaybetter - Terror
Bad Rain - Luft
Panzer Lehr - Luft

6p_red_ball_express.2017-06-01.16-10-07.rec

(6.77 MiB) Downloaded 42 times

The game is very long but enjoyable, you can watch it to have some gameplay-fun.

["Rant" @Players]

Typical game on a narrow tunnel map where an mg and a pak are quite enough to lock down your portion of the front line.

The game was still quite enjoyable, what i didn't like was just how much talking started at the end in the game chat: I tried all game long not to use indirect fire or airstrikes not to piss off my opponents, i tried to carry on with inf and tanks which seemed to me the best option to counter sworms of paras coming at me, so i've been accused of crusaders spam (even if i lost many to paras' at rockets), and all i could do was trying to point out how 2 crusaders, 2 veted commando squads with captain bonus and probably snipers were just enough to stop a couple of infantry squads (they were veted, i'm fine with that, i was just responding to the "OP here OP there" chat).

I must admit when my opponent started building many 88s i started using 95 mm cromwell and flame airstrikes (tried with smoke but 88 was covered by mg and still hit my inf so i took the easy and annoying way) and i used rocket airstrikes to kill/damage KTs when they came (it's hardly counterable by other things). I got even complaints on my 17pdr being OP of course, tho i can't understand what the problem was with that.

The game is not bad to watch tho, i just wanted to show people how chat and live complaints can instantly make a game so shitty: units are there to be used and countered.

When you adopt a strategy you should consider your opponent will adopt a counter move, if you only use paras, complaining for getting only crusaders doesn't seem to me so logical, try instead to get a hetzer/jpz and handle them with the right timing. If you start building emplacements, 99% of the time you'll get indirect fire, you get a panther in late game (veeeeeeeery late) so why shouldn't your opponent have a 17 pdr?

I know it's frustrating to be losing or to lose certain units in a certain way, I myself was so tempted to start "complaining" at the start, when Mg42 was shot by my vickers for a while taking no damage, then simply turned and wiped it out, and that reminded me of lehr saying that brits with mg and boys lock down PE so easily , but i just laughed and told my mates i fucked up so they sent me a little support and that kept all the players fine for a while.

Didn't want to annoy you with long post, but a good friend of mine is recently telling me people are being so annoying he's considering to sto playing, and others could follow him, so just if you read this, try to consider being little nicer/objective and to bother a little less about winning and instead be nicer to other players.

P.S. @Devs: in pretty early game, when i counterpush my direct opponent, i re-capture a 2 inch mortar which unfortunately i can't use, can't shoot/move but can camo. Maybe looking at it might help you to solve the problem.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Well, it was not as that bad game, considering i was laying on my couch and clicking with speed of turtle.We lost game mostly, cause i was bored and inactive.., and i ended up with tons of full vetted infantry and lack of fuel for KT's i so hardly wanted D
Most of what i was saying there, on chat, was adressed to my direct opponent, who is doing all the same strat from game to game and in case something goes wrong, claims it to be OP or "luck" or whatever else.By fact though, it was game of RAF/LUFT crap on tunnel map.

Well played everyone who likes it.

And i dunno, really, i made a post about it, but this sudden "invisible" out of map Henshels shots are very dumb.
Btw, i picked up 2inch mortar with my Pioneer squad this game too, must say, that it worked well (i could even camo it), aside of that, i believe its rate of fire was lowered somehow, or it felt so.

And sure not to forget, 300+ muni wasted on bug shots on both of my Nebels.

[kwok]

88s use a relatively accurate scatter for accuracy btw, so smoking the 88 really doesn't do much except shield your units from supporting defenses. I learned this the hard way. Unless the 88 is alone, I honestly don't know a better solution than to use some arty unit which I think is fair because it's literally what arty was designed to do.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

I don't think you Would piss us off with airplane/arty ut was more like we lost because i toke luft too so it was my mistake we was
just angry at our planes could not Do anything because of that much crusader 2 luft is doom but was nice game i enjoyed gg Edit: yes you can lock them down easily with mg and boy's it just depend on map and luck

We Completly forgot about wirbelwind i see lol sorry for double posting my phone bitch around, But as said plane and arty wouldn't make us angry other things did

[sgtToni95]

88s use a relatively accurate scatter for accuracy btw, so smoking the 88 really doesn't do much except shield your units from supporting defenses. I learned this the hard way.

I don't really get what you mean here, does smoke not decrease 88's accuracy enough to miss? The problem seemed to me damage and suppression caused by shells' splash, which i don't think is something smoke should affect (?).

[kwok]

it does reduce accuracy but not scatter: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1526
So it misses yes, but not by much and the explosion will break.
Actually.. i can't remember if smoke modifies damage... I saw it in vcoh2 which i removed

[Warhawks97]

Actually.. i can't remember if smoke modifies damage... I saw it in vcoh2 which i removed

It seems that 88 HE has no accuracy penalties due to use of smoke. Same against units in light cover, the 88 HE still has no accuracy penalties, just small damage reduction (0.75 modifier)

88 AP seems to have high accuracy penalty against units inside smoke (0.25 accuracy modifier). Against units in light cover it also suffers no accuracy penalty, just damage reduction.


Just as comparison: Tank IV short barrled suffers a accuracy penalty against smoked targets (0.25 accuracy modifier). Against units in light cover it shares same penalty values as 88.
M4 sherman is the same as Tank IV short barrled.

[kwok]

Accuracy for HE weapons I think don't matter anyways. Most rely on scatter and aoe rather than accuracy. What's the base accuracy for HE units? I think pretty low.

[Warhawks97]

Well. Depends. The 88 is pretty accurate. The AP standard accuracy is (short to distant) 1/1/0.9/0.9.

As comparison: Tiger 88 AP shell has 1/1/0.75/0.75
Pak 40 has 1/0.85/0.75/0.65

This are the Standard accuracy values.


The 88 HE standard accuracy is: 1/0.8/0.6/0.5
It suffers no accuracy penalties against target type tp_inf, tp_riflemen_elite, tp_heroic etc.
It suffers 0.75 accuracy penalty against tp_infantry_airborne. But not when those are moving. Yes, when they are not moving. Which is funny since most weapons suffer accuracy penalties vs moving tp_airborne.

Damage is 150. So far no modifiers.
AoE is 8
That is divided in short 0-1 short, 1-3 medium, 3-7 /long/distant
Damage modifier within this AoE (short-distant): 1.5/0.75/0.3/0.3


Panzer IV short barreld HE has standard accuracy of 1/0.85/0.75/0.65
But it suffers accuracy penalty of 0.75 against pretty much all inf and 0.5 against moving inf.

Damage is 95 but 1.5 damage modifier against most inf.
AoE is 7
divided in 0-1 short, 1-3 short, 3-5 long and 5-6 distant.
Damage modifier within this AoE: 1/0.7/0.6/0.5

Max scatter distance for both seems to be one. Idk how do understand all the scatter values in the scatter menu though.


So whats the whole point here?
The 88 HE seems to be slightly less accurate at the first look. But due to tp modifiers its one of the most accurate HE weapons. And esspecially against advancing infantry it does not become less deadly unlike other HE units (the opposite is the case even).
And smoke does not helping you to get not massacred by the 88.
So dropping smoke in order to avoid getting shred by 88 is not an option.
This is sad since probably many players have got probably deep trust in smoke when it comes to attacking heavily defended areas. Just the 88 uses hightech spotting systems to acquire its targets.

[JimQwilleran]

So whats the whole point here?
The 88 HE seems to be slightly less accurate at the first look. But due to tp modifiers its one of the most accurate HE weapons. And esspecially against advancing infantry it does not become less deadly unlike other HE units (the opposite is the case even).
And smoke does not helping you to get not massacred by the 88.
So dropping smoke in order to avoid getting shred by 88 is not an option.
This is sad since probably many players have got probably deep trust in smoke when it comes to attacking heavily defended areas. Just the 88 uses hightech spotting systems to acquire its targets.

Imo 88 opness is old nazi-bias Bk remanant. 88 gun (the AA version, not to confuse with kwk 43) was hardly as good as it is in this mod, including ridiculously over the top penetration and accuracy. 88 flak could not penetrate jumbo even shooting from 10 meters. But in this mod somehow it works like some kind of damn wunderwaffe one-shooting everything from half of the map. I am telling you, when devs finally decide to make 88 more realistic and balanced, that would be the last step to bk perfectness. Currently this is the most unrealistic and also balance breaking thing for me. Have you ever seen 88 dying to arty barrage? That metal tube is damn resistant, isn't it?

[kwok]

Thanks for the meticulous investigation Hawks. Btw, are you back into bk?

[Krieger Blitzer]

It's honestly fascinating to see that some people still think that flak 88s are OP in any way. Specifically you Warhawks, as I can remember how you have always made many outrages against 88s and how they should be nerfed and so on.. and actually as prior to this; 88s were already nerfed several times over the time. Their range got reduced from 100 to 85 and naked 88s got less resistance against arty shells too.

when devs finally decide to make 88 more realistic and balanced, that would be the last step to bk perfectness. Currently this is the most unrealistic and also balance breaking thing for me. Have you ever seen 88 dying to arty barrage? That metal tube is damn resistant, isn't it?

So i am now kinda surprised to see such statements, in fact.. i rarely see any 88s in PvP games anymore. Therefore, i am sorry. But i really have to disagree...
And I bet u already know that if we speak about real life statistics or pure realism, then a lot of things wouldn't make sense in this mod from both sides anyway.. because after all it's just a game where the balance factor is what really matters.

[Panzerblitz1]

We can talk a lot about realism versus gameplay, but regarding the 88 values, there is nothing wrong with it, and frankly the Flak 88 during WWII was so precise at extreme range that it was not even fun for Germans to take out Allies tanks, so if you guys think the 88 in bk is too unreal, then you need to read a bit more on what was this unit at war...

In bk the 88 is a lethal opponent, but one strafe, one mortar, one sniper, one air strike, one arty, one, one, one.... if you know what i mean... the CW mortar pit do more damage in PvP's than Flaks 88's atm.

This value is just scary in itself: Effective range...8000 m (26,240 ft) when the best tank gun was around 2000 m with minimal precision.

[JimQwilleran]

We can talk a lot about realism versus gameplay, but regarding the 88 values, there is nothing wrong with it, and frankly the Flak 88 during WWII was so precise at extreme range that it was not even fun for Germans to take out Allies tanks, so if you guys think the 88 in bk is too unreal, then you need to read a bit more on what was this unit at war...

Why do you automatically assume that you read more than me about this?

in bk the 88 is a lethal opponent, but one strafe, one mortar, one sniper, one air strike, one arty, one, one, one.... if you know what i mean... the CW mortar pit do more damage in PvP's than Flaks 88's atm.

No it's not true, 88s are extremely hard to kill with anything besides arty. If you think you can kill it with mortar you are naive. The guns range exceeds mortars range itself, not to mention enemy counter attacks that will prevent you from getting close. The same thing with snipers. And even if you decrew it, so what? Because of it's range, it's always deep in enemy's territory, he will recrew it in a moment.

This value is just scary in itself: Effective range...8000 m (26,240 ft) when the best tank gun was around 2000 m with minimal precision.

Why do you compare static gun that's purpose was to have high range (because shooting into the sky), with tank's ranges? What is that for? "Look this gun was so cool because other guns couldn't do something like that". For your information, M3 90mm Us gun had 18 Km of maximal range in it's AA version. 76mm gun had 15 km of max range.

[Warhawks97]

@Kwok:

Idk. Am I?

@Tiger: Where did i talk about balance? I just wanted to help players that they dont run into a trap when using smoke. With smoke you can go over many things, just not over 88. That was my whole point. I dont care what is balanced and what is not. I listed facts and gave a warning how to deal with 88´s.

@Panzerblitz:

True, but Tiger tank does not have this deadly accuracy. The Tiger has accuracy stats of a sherman. And that tank (like all other weapons) suffers accuracy penalties when aiming targets in smoke.

You cant say "Yes 88, is so super precious and unfailable as long as it isnt mounted on tigers".
And i cant remember that they used something like radar/IR assisted targeting systems on them.

About max range, effective range you have to keep in mind many different factors.....It has a gun range of 14.860 meters, but you wont really target a tank at this range. Modern tanks engaging at about 3-5 km with unguided ammunition but hightech targeting systems.

Effective range depends on target type (armor, size, etc).


Also its a weird situation now. We have been told that smoke is a cheap alternative to be used instead of arty massacre games. So either its possible to use smoke against any defense to overcome those or not. But this is "you can overrun 99% of all defenses if you drop smoke during your attack. But not when your oponent has this single secret weapon. Then your only option is arty".
And that sounds stupid since one of the major concerns of the dev team during the past periods was to decrease the ammount of arty. And since its very likely that there will be at least one doc that can field 88´s during a game allied players might be still forced to be sure and to field at least one capable arty doc as it can happen that axis decide to field their secret "anti smoke canon" if they get bothered by too much smoke.

The whole point is: Its missleading in terms of proposed alternative gameplays that popped up during the last two years by saying use smoke.
So either smoke has an effect or it does not have. That has nothing to do with "accuracy reports of ww2".

[JimQwilleran]

I also agree with Hawks, if you dont want to make 88 less op, at least remove some stupid axis bias, like no accuracy nerf in smoke or damage reduction.

[Krieger Blitzer]

No it's not true, 88s are extremely hard to kill with anything besides arty. If you think you can kill it with mortar you are naive. The guns range exceeds mortars range itself, not to mention enemy counter attacks that will prevent you from getting close. The same thing with snipers. And even if you decrew it, so what? Because of it's range, it's always deep in enemy's territory, he will recrew it in a moment.

I would say that if u think 88s are hard to kill, then this would be actually more naive.
Even the Armor doc can instantly get rid of it using off-map arty barrage from tank commanders after unlock!
What if i told u that killing inf doc 107mm mortar emplacements can be even harder? I guess they have even more range than 88s while they are located even deeper in enemy territory, when arty is also the only solution to take it out. Not to mention they are quite precise too, and can always shoot above obstacles... So why do u complain only about 88s here?

@Hawks
Smoke doesn't really reduce the accuracy of 107mm mortars emplacements either. And to be honest, rushing 88s frontaly just with smoke, would only make it more useless when it's already not that hard to knock them out with indirect fire weapons.

[JimQwilleran]

I would say that if u think 88s are hard to kill, then this would be actually more naive.
Even the Armor doc can instantly get rid of it using off-map arty barrage from tank commanders after unlock!
What if i told u that killing inf doc 107mm mortar emplacements can be even harder? I guess they have even more range than 88s while they are located even deeper in enemy territory, when arty is also the only solution to take it out. Not to mention they are quite precise too, and can always shoot above obstacles... So why do u complain only about 88s here?

88 has bigger range than arty call in

And yes, 107 mortar emplacement is the same case. It's op and unkillable with anything besides massed arty.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Yes, 88s have bigger range.. but in most of the maps, u will always find some obstacles close enough where u can hide behind them while ordering ur off-map arty barrage.

But admitting that 107mm mortar emplacements are rather the same, then i wonder why claiming that there is Axis bias down here?

Regardless, i just think both flak 88s and 107mm emplacments are fine atm, they are equally annoying. But both were also nerfed before already. So... This whole discussion has no point!

[JimQwilleran]

I can see the point, because of what hawks said. 88 has no accuracy nerf in smoke, so it's unfair. Without any reason 88 is treated in special way, which is something I called old bk nazi bias.
I hope that with new bk balance policy we can reach balance and avoid some weapons being op just because old dev team wanted to please comp stop 88 spammers, who wanted their 88s to be indestructible.

Also saying "you probably will always have a building to hide behind to use call in arty" is like saying "yea probably after you decrew that 88 10 times in a row, ur plane might fall down on it." This is not how balance works.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think 107mm mortar emplacements don't have accuracy nerf in smoke too, just Hawks didn't speak about it.

Naked 88s are so easy to kill even with direct fire weapons btw, i once rushed it with 1 AT squad and 1 sand-bagged Sherman. Even without having to kill the crew first. Naked 88s have such low HP!

About emplaced 88s, let's not forget they cost quite a lot.. and Luft ones can't make arty barrage except with victor target. Not to mention that generally you can't give orders to 88 emplacements to shoot at targets you desire due to game engine limitations. As they will just randomly pick one... While u can give commands to 107mm mortar emplacements to barrage a certain area on the other hand.

[Warhawks97]

What have mortars to do with that?

Direct fireing units have accuracy nerf when their targets are covered in smoke (or if they are staying in smoke themselfs). Thats how i think its supposed to be. Thats the entire purpose of smoke.


Indirect fireing units working different here. They more or less shoot via coordination. Same goes for arty etc. It would then even affect airplanes and stuff.

Also Mortars are useless if there are no units in front that hold back the enemies.


The whole point here is: Smoke is meant to cover your units from enemie direct fire. And this rule applies to every direct shooting weapon i could find so far. Just not for the 88. If you want to hit targets in smoke with 88, use the arty barrage ability which ignores smoke as well (i know luft doesnt have it.... but still).

And this simple and logic game mechanic does not apply here. This is not a balance talk. Just how things are supposed to work (how the entire game actually works at this point.... exception the 88).

I mean think about that logic. You are attacking an 88 and cover your units in smoke. Why shall they get such a huge accuracy penalty when shooting the 88 while in return the 88 shoots back with full efficiency?

Meanwhile the 88 itself is harder to hit while staying also in smoke (The emplacment has even a smoke canister shell iirc).

like 88 crew says: "Hey, lets pop out smoke. No enemie will hit us anymore, our huge emplacment, but we can shoot even the smallest ant at a distance of 2 km with unchanged accuracy. "

[Krieger Blitzer]

I get ur point, the balance talk was firstly brought by JimQwilleran though, so i was responding to that.

Yet, i actually wouldn't mind if some accuracy nerf would apply on 88s in smoke. However, there are a lot of things that are controversial the exact same way... For example, Bazookas, PIATs, Recoiless Rifles.. all can be used in crawl position. Exception; the PanzerShrecks!!
So, i would still say not everything is meant to be the same anyways...

[Warhawks97]

I get ur point, the balance talk was firstly brought by JimQwilleran though, so i was responding to that.

fine

Yet, i actually wouldn't mind if some accuracy nerf would apply on 88s in smoke. However, there are a lot of things that are controversial the exact same way... For example, Bazookas, PIATs, Recoiless Rifles.. all can be used in crawl position. Exception; the PanzerShrecks!!
So, i would still say not everything is meant to be the same anyways...

Talking about the new crawling rangers? What Piat squad can crawl?

[Krieger Blitzer]

I get ur point, the balance talk was firstly brought by JimQwilleran though, so i was responding to that.

fine

Yet, i actually wouldn't mind if some accuracy nerf would apply on 88s in smoke. However, there are a lot of things that are controversial the exact same way... For example, Bazookas, PIATs, Recoiless Rifles.. all can be used in crawl position. Exception; the PanzerShrecks!!
So, i would still say not everything is meant to be the same anyways...

Talking about the new crawling rangers? What Piat squad can crawl?

Hmm, i wasn't pointing at specific units.. though it is true if u would say that i was actually hinting on the infilteration Ranger squads.

Nonetheless, i was more speaking about the weapons themselves. As i generally meant that even StormTroops can happen to pick up those weapons from the ground too, right? That's what i was talking about. Storms can also use RLs, PIATs, and Bazookas from crawl position...

I heard there is going to be a new Commando unit by the next patch who might be able to crawl, though not sure.