*Frustration*

[sgtToni95]

Why do you think Comet should have no HE? Those are shells tanks had in their storage, from an historical point of view, TDs as well. I can see comet was quite lethal for your grens in that game so you might be frustrated, but that actually works as any other HE shot and it doesn't even have such a deadly co-axial nor hull mg to harm infantry.
About sherman prices i see they already convinced you, tho i'd like to bring you another point which has not been mentioned (or i might have missed it): both terror and bk docs have good infantry with good upgrades, terror has really decent arty as well, and even bk has some, you yourself realize how maultier deals good damage to pershings during that game (not saying it's very effective, just it's not bad). On the other hand, armor doc has no infantry upgrades so you can count only on basic US infantry which in late game is much worse than axis' (not considering vets). Talking about arty, armor doc has Calliope, it can cause good damage, but it basically makes you retreat or move your units if you see it starts shooting you, can't really kill a panther or pz4 with it as you can kill tanks with stuka or sturmtiger, commander barrage is surely more useful as a click to kill ability.
So i think, considering the doctrines as a whole, they're fine as they are.
I think churchills are fine as they are: red didn't make any of them, but i can tell you that after you make 1-2 of those, expecially in the early game, it wouldn't be so easy to keep so much MP or fuel.

[Devilfish]

I agree with no HE for TDs and AT guns, purely for gameplay reason. Because I think it's a choice player has to make; More AT capabilities to his army or Anti-Inf. I personally hate (still use it though) the easy and cheap AT gun HE rounds trick. So dirty. I mean I've got myself an AT gun, to get a protection from vehicles. But if I want it can kill infantry better than most anti-inf stuff for like 30 muni or whatever.....

Comet was carrying HE rounds irl, I think. But it doesn't matter. Gameplay-wise, Comet is a top british, doc-specific medium tank. No reason not to give it HEs. And you are wrong about the coaxial mg, Toni. It barely tickles nazis .

[idliketoplaybetter]

So what's the main reason for NOT giving TD's HE rounds?I can see statement "to be removed", but why..(TIger also said that no one yet objected it there, but there is nothing to object )
Cause i cant see any real issue with them having it(especially if "historical accuracy" argument is around)

[Krieger Blitzer]

This way the Comet is way better than the Pershing, with an equivalent gun.. and both flank speed as well as rapid shot abilities! Much cheaper than the Pershing as well; and generally has better mobility... Almost the same armor too.

Comet is mainly supposed to be fighting vehicles, just like all other TDs. As it's not a multi-role tank.. therefore it should be vulnerable against inf!

I would say that absolutely no TD in the game should have HE rounds anymore.. from both sides; Axis or even Allies. Regardless of historical accuracy... Because, if we stick with historical facts; then I am afraid the JagdPanther would have HE rounds too, which is not fine accordingly to game-play wise.

[JimQwilleran]

Imo, HE for TDs should stay. For example what else can achilles do without an mg? Why is HE for Jagdpanther or other TH wrong? I don't understand that. Generally I am pro status quo in this matter.

[idliketoplaybetter]

So what's the reason of taking HE away again?
(im leaving out fact that talking of Comet is irrelevant, so u wont make this trick again )

[Krieger Blitzer]

For example what else can achilles do without an mg?

Why is it supposed to do anything against inf at all? When it's just a TD with open roof?! Even a grenade should be enough to kill it, actually...

I can see no Axis TD with HE rounds, but if there is any.. then they should no longer have it either.

[JimQwilleran]

Even cheapest rifles or volks have some sort of antitank weapon. And other way round.. you really want relatively expensive tank destroyer (manpower, fuel, upkeep, tiering cost all summed up) to be COMPLETELY defenceless vs any inf squad? Sorry but your idea is not very wise.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Even cheapest rifles or volks have some sort of antitank weapon. And other way round.. you really want relatively expensive tank destroyer (manpower, fuel, upkeep, tiering cost all summed up) to be COMPLETELY defenceless vs any inf squad? Sorry but your idea is not very wise.

Why is the JagdPanther completely defenseless against inf then? Why is the JagdPanzer completely defenseless as well? They even have no turrets...

I think there are 2 options that should be done; either remove HE rounds from all TDs, or to give HE rounds to all the rest TDs which don't have it... And at this point, game will be unplayable with inf.

[Panzerblitz1]

If you're talking history, TH such Jagdpanther & Co used HE rounds as well, with the big HE 9.4 Kg "Sprenggranate 43".

[JimQwilleran]

Omg, why not leaving it like it's now? First you say that there is a huge urgency in changing something, then you say: "well I don't care, I let you pick one from among of my ideas".
No.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Pzblitz, yup.

@Nami;
Then you are fine if JagdPanther would have HE rounds too?

[Panzerblitz1]

Im not saying anything here except that Tank hunters, even bigger ones had HE shells as well, thats all, its only for informations purpose.

[JimQwilleran]

Wise Markr once said: "not everything is meant to be the same"
But yea, jagdpanther could get HE too. For sake of realism and logic (the same gun on KT does have HE)

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Pzblitz
Ya, I understand there are no decisions yet regarding this matter.. even though I would like to hear some.

@Nami
My argument is simple... I am not giving you 2 choices to select between, but here is the thing; All TDs should have HE rounds, or non of them should have any! I would say all TDs should be treated the same way.
But if you give HE rounds to all TDs, then I am afraid the game-play with inf would be messed up though!

[Panzerblitz1]

If we start to put HE a bit everywhere, we will brake the bk docs specialties and the mod will look like more or less as a big bowl of soup without any single main purpose or specificities, why having different docs if all look the same?

[JimQwilleran]

That is why my first point was "to leave everything as it is". Only after being asked about Jagpanther I answered that this particular unit could actually get HE. But still, I don't see a point in changing anything. Everything works great for me, for both sides Axis and Allies.

[Krieger Blitzer]

That is why my first point was "to leave everything as it is". Only after being asked about Jagpanther I answered that this particular unit could actually get HE. But still, I don't see a point in changing anything. Everything works great for me, for both sides Axis and Allies.

But things as they are currently, are not fair. Allied TDs have HE rounds.. Axis ones don't! How is this just fine to you? Specifically that Axis TDs are actually more expensive...
And this brings us back to the first point; that putting HE rounds everywhere would be messed up. TDs are to fight tanks, not inf! Clearly that's my humble opinion.

[JimQwilleran]

That is why I am glad to have devs to solve our terrifying dilemmas . I have already expressed my opinion. I will rely on them to decide.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Funny, how something that few argumented can be taken as serious thing and even more funnier, is that if no one is objecting it, it must be agreed as it is "just cause"..

[sgtToni95]

@dunham i meant that its he shells were deadly, while its mgs do practically nothing.. my bad explanation probably..
I know now tds are quite deadly even against infantry, but, only for historical reasons, i don't really like the solution to make them available only to certain tanks/tds since every gun was capable pretty much capable to fire any kind of shots.
Considering how they work in the game i think that tds able to camo, so mainly AT/ambush oriented, would be fine even without HE: they could just oneshot a whole squad without being spotted which would be soo annoying and probably OP. OR they could get a smaller aoe to make them not too good.
This is just my opinion, but i'm fine with the whole system as it is now actually.. don't really think it needs changes.
I'm not sure but jadgpanther has a top mg, with suppression ability as well probably, and combined with target ability from TH doc makes them quite deadly against infantry as well (lehr said this as well in some other topic).

[Devilfish]

@toni I just failed to be funny again, don't mind me .

I've already said my reasons for removing HE from TDs and at guns, which everybody ignored with pleasure. But I don't give a damn if everything stays as it is, I'm used to it. And Tiger, it's not written in the heavens that every TD has to be the same. Because factions and doctrines are not the same. Of course if you have some real balance, gameplay improving reasoning, go ahead.

Edit: But to be fair to TIger, I doubt there is any real reasoning for particular TDs currently having/not having HE right now. It's just how it evolved during the long BK mod development, not really purposely based on how the mod is currently set up.

[sgtToni95]

Lol

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

I think all he shoots should be removed from any td's.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Yup... Just like how Paine described it at the end of our game when he approved my statement about removing HE rounds from TDs.
When he literally said "Ya.. that's silly, they can just switch between the two..." as he meant that it's not fine this way how TDs can have both roles!

So, just in order to be more precise... I think the following units should have HE rounds removed:-
- Achilles, Hellcat, Comet, Marder 1, Marder 3, WH pak40 HT and 17pdr AT gun emplacement.

While i think the following units on the other hand, can actually keep it:-
- JagdTiger, Stugs, US 76mm AT gun, CW 75mm HT, Firefly, Axis 37mm AT guns.

Keeping in mind that AT squads have 2 seconds aim time, which I believe is something that should never be changed or reverted of course.. not even for PIATs or RLs. However; those 2 ones could probably have less reload time instead!

And btw, using flank speed.. the Comet would have no problems whatsoever to escape AT squads... Specifically with 2s aim time for handheld AT weapons. But like I already pointed out earlier; the Comet shouldn't be as good as the Pershing against inf, cuz it's already cheaper and has similar armor and abilities.