4.9.6 Patch First Impressions

[kwok]

I was asked to post some replays of my games. Luckily I saved almost all games I've played so far (only 5).
I asked to post before I posted. The only game I'm missing from all games I've tried so far is a 1v1 against Paine as Brits.

My first impressions are: I like it a lot. Unfortunately, I don't have the Brit replay one because I really wanted to show how much of a game changer being able to start with AT boys is. It actually makes brits playable in the early game, not immediately at the mercy of a schwimm. Now I can forsee four opening types in a low resource brit vs wm game:
1. schwimm vs AT boys
2. schwimm vs LT+__
3. inf vs AT boys
4. inf vs LT+__
Each has its tradeoffs. There's an actual rock-paper-scissors dynamic now.

It only gets better on high resource games I think, a lot more build orders open (though I think the better move for brits on hi-res is still LT first because you can drop a glider for little cost and double the unit production efficiency).

Other than that, I haven't felt much difference but then I haven't really played THAT many games yet, and not even one team game. Hoping to get more soon.


I hope to get some commentary on my match against playbetter. That one was a lot of fun I think.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I played several games, really dissapointed, I think BK havent been in such a terrible balance condition for a long time.

1) Handled AT change is very bad because of numerous amount of reasons:
- Bye bye inf doc, how do they even supposed to fight tanks now?
- That hurt axis EXTREMELY much, early shermans and churchills steamroll the entire german armies.
- While AT teams still can be usefull due to ambush abilities, squads with single AT item are not viable at all, just a waste of a slot.
- PIATs? Recoiless? Useless
- Frontal rushes with Schrecks could feel annoying, but there is nothing more confusing than looking at how soldier with AT weapon stares at the tank standing few meters away without doing a shot.
- Vehicles which already were OP in some extent became even more essential ( Quad Cal., Puma, Recce, 57mm AT truck )

2) Good job with making AT boys available right away, now Allies can lock down axis in the first minute, you can forget about scout cars ( while CW got a sneaky Daimler which will make the entire forces retreat if somebody didnt bring a pak or it was unlucky and missed )

3) Sturmtiger - new unit, great, but too bad you didnt find a better doc for it. What is the single reason to use it over walking stuka? 700 MP, shitload of fuel and 150 ammo per shot? Allies laugh with their click to kill abilities. But nevermind, WH cant survive till getting this unit anyway.

It feels like USA = WH with supplyard, and Brits are more flexible version of PE with much better vehicles. All allied stuff is extremely cost effective, you can find a cheap counter for every axis unit.

I played 10 games, so far lost all of them as Axis and won all with Allies ( teams were almost the same each time ). Germans are extremely slow ass, they require shitload of time to prepare any kind of assault and have really a few of pro-active abilities in compare to allies. Some things are just beyond my undestanding, why PE tank factory is so expensive? Why HE pazner in TH doc costs almost twice of a HE sherman in Armor doc?

Axis used to be a raw power faction with very fat and durable units, while Allies were more about beeing sneaky faction which relies more on interesting unit's abilities and combinations, rather than just butcher-style units. Now Allies became both, they have ultimate counters for each axis ACE, bunch of sneaky stuff and are also extremely good in raw power pressure.

Positive moments: New maps are AWESOME, really enjoyed playing them, same goes to skins and pz3.

[Krieger Blitzer]

1) Handled AT change is very bad because of numerous amount of reasons:
- Bye bye inf doc, how do they even supposed to fight tanks now?
- That hurt axis EXTREMELY much, early shermans and churchills steamroll the entire german armies.
- While AT teams still can be usefull due to ambush abilities, squads with single AT item are not viable at all, just a waste of a slot.
- PIATs? Recoiless? Useless
- Frontal rushes with Schrecks could feel annoying, but there is nothing more confusing than looking at how soldier with AT weapon stares at the tank standing few meters away without doing a shot.
- Vehicles which already were OP in some extent became even more essential ( Quad Cal., Puma, Recce, 57mm AT truck )

I am afraid I have to disagree. Adding 2 seconds aim time for handheld AT weapons, is a very good change actually.. nonetheless; I can still definitely understand what you are pointing out here...
- As for inf doc, well... That's why Armor doc exists.. choosing correct doctrines is something that is very essential now, somebody else mentioned this exact same statement recently on another topic btw.. as I agree with it. And that's also why I like this patch so much.
Yet, I think inf doc isn't completely helpless against heavy Axis tanks.. they still have AT gun emplacements, which can be constructed extremely fast.. arty and Wolverines too. Beside AT teams!

- Shermans and Churchills vs Axis AT teams... That's why TH doc exits! However, I think Churchill should really cost more. Regarding Shermans, i will come back to this point later.

- Squads with a single AT item, hmm... After improving HE rounds as well as adding 2 second aim time.. then I was thinking... How about generally reducing the prices for all inf units in the game? I think this would make a lot of sense at this point.

- RLs and PIATs, well... I suggest less reload time for both. Aim time untouched though!

- Frontally rushing tanks, yes it's a lot harder now.. that was pretty much the goal

- About Recce, Quad, Puma etc... This can be also solved by reducing the prices of all inf units in the game.

2) Good job with making AT boys available right away, now Allies can lock down axis in the first minute, you can forget about scout cars ( while CW got a sneaky Daimler which will make the entire forces retreat if somebody didnt bring a pak or it was unlucky and missed )

Have to agree with this one, I don't like how AT rifle boys are available since the start...

3) Sturmtiger - new unit, great, but too bad you didnt find a better doc for it. What is the single reason to use it over walking stuka? 700 MP, shitload of fuel and 150 ammo per shot? Allies laugh with their click to kill abilities. But nevermind, WH cant survive till getting this unit anyway.

ST costs no fuel? But yes, i can agree that it could have been a lot better if this unit was in Blitz doc.

Why HE pazner in TH doc costs almost twice of a HE sherman in Armor doc?

I would say the cost of Pz4.F1 is fine... But back to Shermans, then I would just say Shermans actually need to cost as much! Or I mean a bit more.

Positive moments: New maps are AWESOME, really enjoyed playing them, same goes to skins and pz3.

Playmobill did great job for sure, and I can't be more happy to hear this too ^^ And yes, I love the new skins as well.

[XAHTEP39]

ST costs no fuel? But yes, i can agree that it could have been a lot better if this unit was in Blitz doc.

Vise versa: ST and Maultier (people think it`s weak) - for Terr, Walking Stuka - for BK (IMHO).

Sukin forget good thing: Pz.IV and Hetzer/Jg.Pz.IV is separetely unlock! It is a success!

[Leonida [525]]

I agree with Sukin on some points (although I like most of changes):
- I experienced that He shermans now are pure beasts, AT squads are really not a big problem anymore, not to mention squads with 1 AT, and as US player u can deploy them very early even without choosing a Doc, you have lots of armored units available, m16 and t48 are best HT in the game in my opinion in their role(and t48 outrange Pak40 HT) while especially WH player if he doesnt choose doc he has really nothing like that, not even 20 mm puma, not even 1 tank. This means Us player has no problems to wait and see enemy doctrine and then see what to do best as doc. Last day I played US without doc almost till the end of the match thx to sherman HE and HTs vs WH player, and at the end I chose AB just to throw immediately end-match bombs and spam some AB squads to finish the game.
- About Hendheld AT, I personally liked kwoks suggestion of making aim time related to the distance from the target, or I think making AT team able to crawl ambushed like spotters would be good, to have the possibility to sneak behind a tank to hit it rearside, and to make PE AT squads (1 shreck) more useful with their low range Panzerfaust (except th doc).

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I suggest a different solution for handled AT, the problem was exactly in sprinting and insta shooting, is it possible to apply a heavy penalties for AT weapon holder if he sprints? Like accuracy and aim time debuff ( but all other stats are the same as they used to be before the patch, if squads dont activate sprinting ability ). For instance, sprinting squad gets -25% accuracy for their AT and 1.5. sec aim time. This would be much more logical and better gameplay wise. Currently its just too bad, game is ruled by fast vehicle-butchers ( like it was with Coh2 wikinger, reason why mod is boring ).

[sgtToni95]

I suggest a different solution for handled AT, the problem was exactly in sprinting and insta shooting, is it possible to apply a heavy penalties for AT weapon holder if he sprints? Like accuracy and aim time debuff ( but all other stats are the same as they used to be before the patch, if squads dont activate sprinting ability ). For instance, sprinting squad gets -25% accuracy for their AT and 1.5. sec aim time. This would be much more logical and better gameplay wise. Currently its just too bad, game is ruled by fast vehicle-butchers ( like it was with Coh2 wikinger, reason why mod is boring ).

Didn't think about that, could be an option yeah, but maybe might be abused by calculating the exact moment of sprint end...
What are theese better "Click to kill" abilities allies have? I can see Long tom, but after first 2 hits you probably retreated all units you had in that area, air patrol and plane bombs of course, but AA can take them down or you can move away your units, priests with vets are good as well. Didn't you forget about Grille? I think that's actually quite effective as click to kill unit, JGTiger with HE shot now can be exactly the same just with shorter range, Sturmtiger shot is slow, but not so slow that everything can escape it, and it's quite destructive.SE sector arty is nice as well: I saw it blowing up entire squads after 1-2 seconds it was called, and lasts quite long. Can't really see unbalance in this particular aspect.

2) Good job with making AT boys available right away, now Allies can lock down axis in the first minute, you can forget about scout cars ( while CW got a sneaky Daimler which will make the entire forces retreat if somebody didnt bring a pak or it was unlucky and missed )

Isn't it the same for US if you miss a scout car? And what if your opponent doesn't make swimm/vehicles? Boys might be not the best to counter Sturm or Volks and you still need to make LT before having anything else available. Even here i don't see that big unbalance.

[Devilfish]

I really like the Sukin's idea. But I'd just keep, let's say 0.5s aim time, so it's not just instant fire. Toni, I think after some testing the penalty could be tuned to such extend that it wouldn't be possible to exploit it with a good timing.

Little problem is, that this change's initial goal was to prevent the bug when the zook soldier died and when the other picked it up, it was reloaded and ready to fire. But I think it was firstly fixed by making it not reloaded by default and it worked fine imo.

Imo, boys without a lieutenant doesn't make that much of a difference. By the time scout car was fielded, boys were already out anyway. All it changes is that one can't simply stomp the first sappers with schwimm risk-free. But as Toni said, now if you skip schwimm and opponent gets at boys, you will overrun him easily, so it's really just toss-a-coin thing now.

[MarKr]

I suggest a different solution for handled AT, the problem was exactly in sprinting and insta shooting, is it possible to apply a heavy penalties for AT weapon holder if he sprints? Like accuracy and aim time debuff ( but all other stats are the same as they used to be before the patch, if squads dont activate sprinting ability ). For instance, sprinting squad gets -25% accuracy for their AT and 1.5. sec aim time. This would be much more logical and better gameplay wise. Currently its just too bad, game is ruled by fast vehicle-butchers ( like it was with Coh2 wikinger, reason why mod is boring ).

The reason for aim time was also to prevent "rapid shooting" bug. Anyway - handheld ATs have good accuracy at close range (which is the reason why people sprinted to tanks instead of shooting from distance) so -25% accuracy will still make it hit in 3 out of 4 shots...even if in 2 out of 4 it will still be effective. As I mentioned in another post aim time cannot be modified by abilities. You are stuck with what the weapon's pre-set aim time. But I also said that I've watched streams and replays and people actually still can kill vehicles with AT guns but instead of sprinting in front of a tank and standing there in the open, they sprint into a cover nearest to the target - that gives them protection for the two seconds before they fire. So if some people can pull this off, why can't you?

And for "game is ruled by fast vehicle-butchers"...wasn't it before that fast vehicle butchers were the AT teams? Also if fast vehicles are such a sore spot for Axis now, take them out with AT HTs - 28mm and 37mm have the range increase.

Sukin, I respect you as a player and mean no offense here, but you said it yourself in another topic:

@sukin: I once told you that you have a very specific gameplay. A certain sukin style... almost like a formular that sometimes made me thinking that you have a "to do list" next to your desktop that says when to do what. And with terror doc i even once told you that you somehow found out the "perfect" way" to win. Your AB style was quite similiar to the terror style. Just you relied more on arty mates there instead on own walking stukas and instead of panther as finisher force you used the AB bomber patrole combined with large assault of 101st´s squads. The Back up was hellcat for AB, 50 mm (+ simple shreks) for terror.
So if i would point my finger on someone with a pretty well "plan to play" then its you. Same goes for shadow (but only when he plays with RAF).

Maybe you are right, but it doesn't mean that I'm biased towards a certain faction or doctrine.

that you have your formula and play according to it and to me it just seems you have the same problem now as many other players who play with formulas - the formula doesn't work and so the game must suck. But the fact is that Axis have means to win, but people don't use them. Panzer-Lehr wrote to me few days ago that Axis could use mortar in early game but he plays PE (so no mortar teams) and his WM team mates are "too lazy to build it". This is simply because in the previous versions it was better to wait a bit longer and get mortar HTs instead - better mobility, survived longer etc. so mortar teams were underused and generally considered not worth building. Now mortar HTs don't come a bit later but a while later and during this while the mortars are needed but do people build them to counter Allies spam or whatever? No, because they still have in their mind that "mortar teams are not worth it" - well, maybe they are now. Don't catch here specifically on mortars, it can be any unit but the principle remains the same.
So I think that once someone finds a new formula for Axis that will work (Panzer-Lehr told me he pretty much found it already) and it spreads among the people, suddenly all the buzz around "Axis are weak" will stop. Again, I mean no offense here, just my point of view.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

I suggest a different solution for handled AT, the problem was exactly in sprinting and insta shooting, is it possible to apply a heavy penalties for AT weapon holder if he sprints? Like accuracy and aim time debuff ( but all other stats are the same as they used to be before the patch, if squads dont activate sprinting ability ). For instance, sprinting squad gets -25% accuracy for their AT and 1.5. sec aim time. This would be much more logical and better gameplay wise. Currently its just too bad, game is ruled by fast vehicle-butchers ( like it was with Coh2 wikinger, reason why mod is boring ).

The reason for aim time was also to prevent "rapid shooting" bug. Anyway - handheld ATs have good accuracy at close range (which is the reason why people sprinted to tanks instead of shooting from distance) so -25% accuracy will still make it hit in 3 out of 4 shots...even if in 2 out of 4 it will still be effective. As I mentioned in another post aim time cannot be modified by abilities. You are stuck with what the weapon's pre-set aim time. But I also said that I've watched streams and replays and people actually still can kill vehicles with AT guns but instead of sprinting in front of a tank and standing there in the open, they sprint into a cover nearest to the target - that gives them protection for the two seconds before they fire. So if some people can pull this off, why can't you?

And for "game is ruled by fast vehicle-butchers"...wasn't it before that fast vehicle butchers were the AT teams? Also if fast vehicles are such a sore spot for Axis now, take them out with AT HTs - 28mm and 37mm have the range increase.

Sukin, I respect you as a player and mean no offense here, but you said it yourself in another topic:

@sukin: I once told you that you have a very specific gameplay. A certain sukin style... almost like a formular that sometimes made me thinking that you have a "to do list" next to your desktop that says when to do what. And with terror doc i even once told you that you somehow found out the "perfect" way" to win. Your AB style was quite similiar to the terror style. Just you relied more on arty mates there instead on own walking stukas and instead of panther as finisher force you used the AB bomber patrole combined with large assault of 101st´s squads. The Back up was hellcat for AB, 50 mm (+ simple shreks) for terror.
So if i would point my finger on someone with a pretty well "plan to play" then its you. Same goes for shadow (but only when he plays with RAF).

Maybe you are right, but it doesn't mean that I'm biased towards a certain faction or doctrine.

that you have your formula and play according to it and to me it just seems you have the same problem now as many other players who play with formulas - the formula doesn't work and so the game must suck. But the fact is that Axis have means to win, but people don't use them. Panzer-Lehr wrote to me few days ago that Axis could use mortar in early game but he plays PE (so no mortar teams) and his WM team mates are "too lazy to build it". This is simply because in the previous versions it was better to wait a bit longer and get mortar HTs instead - better mobility, survived longer etc. so mortar teams were underused and generally considered not worth building. Now mortar HTs don't come a bit later but a while later and during this while the mortars are needed but do people build them to counter Allies spam or whatever? No, because they still have in their mind that "mortar teams are not worth it" - well, maybe they are now. Don't catch here specifically on mortars, it can be any unit but the principle remains the same.
So I think that once someone finds a new formula for Axis that will work (Panzer-Lehr told me he pretty much found it already) and it spreads among the people, suddenly all the buzz around "Axis are weak" will stop. Again, I mean no offense here, just my point of view.

That's True i found a new pe meta,great start up or whatever you wanna call it , however people rather use the Same units like the last Patches intead of trying out new idea's or unit's and i tell it here and now people wich will try all over the same as they did before the patch YOU GONNA WILL LOSE. And if this happen's so Most player's go pissed at the patch everytime i sit in a lobby people want me to agree axis suck now.* perhaps because I am also a very very old pe bk player" however Markr stream's Most of my games sure when patch came out First few day's i only lost finding and catching out something new And now i Try and tell people what to do but hey if ask to a mate build a mortar, they say no and then i am like okay, it's harder micro but now useful. on guy's if someone do not accept help from someone then also do not go against the patch it's not the patch or dev's fault but your own.

[speeddemon02]

I just played a game where I was US Inf doctrine. Got my ass handed to me. Tree was fully unlocked. My rangers of all types could not survive nor kill had to stop using them it was just a waste of MP. Jumbos were killed by the 75 HTs at range. Groups of HE Shermans destroyed by AT squads, the AT squads killed several rangers squads too.

I noticed in another game the US airborne were easier to kill than I remembered, but it wasnt anywhere this devastating. I'm going to try it again and see if I get similar results, but wow I dont know what others are complaining about, but I didnt see any axis nerf.

[MarKr]

What doctrine were you facing?

[Krieger Blitzer]

but wow I dont know what others are complaining about, but I didnt see any axis nerf.

I wouldn't say that Axis got nerfed either... However, I actually have to admit that there is apparently some significant issues.. of which I am willing to address each of them in details anytime soon at some point.

[speeddemon02]

1 was SE and the other was defense

[XAHTEP39]

1 was SE and the other was defense

What doctrines were you allied?

[speeddemon02]

I was US inf and he was CW RE

[MarKr]

I asked because I thought they pulled a specific tactics on you, but obviously not, so never mind.

Anyway - you mention Rangers, Jumboes, HE Shermans, 75mm HTs, AT teams and then AB infantry. You may see in the changelog that these were not touched (HP, weapon stats, armor stats etc.) so I doubt it was more than just a feeling on your side.

[speeddemon02]

I know, just thought I'd share that the allies get a raw end too with so much anti axis, just so much 1st times in one game