AA Quads save the day

[Volksgrenadiers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlNWmzI2LZU

Hi kameraden, here is my game with Tiger on Duclair map,and we want to know what do you think about that Americans AA is that really OP when its its eazy tobuild it but hard to destroy it even with heavy arty? Tell us your opinion...

[Leonida [525]]

Without talking about my bad match and other possible ways we could do to get rid of that emp, after stuka zu fuss and hotckiss rockets multiple hits it didnt die.. How many Hp does it have? Almost any other emp would have been destroyed

[Panzerblitz1]

1 mortar, bye bye AA.

[Viper]

good luck with your mortar against royal arty doctrine and air strikes from airborne even stuka did not work.

maybe you should hear what they said at the end of the game about the quad fortifications.
i think problem is airborne can build them without any requirements.
but luftwaffe need specialized pioneers first. if they wanted to build 20mm flak. and defensive doctrine need 2nd phase upgrade first. british need field support truck first if they wanted bofor. but airborne? no requirements at all. just select the doctrine and build them with your normal engineers anytime you want.

i think they have a point when they ask that quad fortifications should be available only via airborne engineers. airborne engineers can be cheaper too.

[Panzerblitz1]

Is it Tiger who speak? Or Seha? will check that.

[kwok]

In my +1200 games, i have never seen a USA AA emplacement built in t2 let alone t1.

In my +1200 games I have never had a problem killing AA emplacements.

[Panzerblitz1]

In my +1200 games, i have never seen a USA AA emplacement built in t2 let alone t1.

In my +1200 games I have never had a problem killing AA emplacements.

Agreed, this won't change.

[Viper]

Is it Tiger who speak? Or Seha? will check that.

what the hell? why do you think that? anyway.

to kwok.
maybe you did not see it happening in your games. but we can now see it in that game.

and we have other players with more games who say they see it happening. so? this is no argument.

[idliketoplaybetter]

I'd rather say, its they never prevented you from getting emplacement of that or any kind, then its "too hard to kill it and easy to build".No one actually tried to clear that untill Stuka or Hotkiss arrived, it has nothing to do with AA's being too strong or so in this certain case.
And normally, from decent/balanced teams play, you cant see that at all!

[Viper]

yes but it is odd how American airborne can build quad fortifications without any requirements. but Luftwaffe need to have special pioneers first. same with others. all have some requirements to build aa fortifications. except airborne.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Question was clear. That it's easy to build and hard to destroy.

So again, even from my experience, which is not even 1000games at bkmod, It is not like that.You cant outrun axis players with your engineers and build it before someone will actually come there, it doesnt provide you with any kind of bennefit, not saying, about that normal player won't even rush you emp without mortar(and yes, its somehow, easier to de-crew it with with mortar, then destroy totally with stuka or etc).

[MarKr]

If you build that very early you can fortify one point/area but you lack resources for building units so it is a tradeoff. Also (and I am repeating this over and over) if they had built a mortar and fired a smoke shell on the emplacement, your troops can run all the way to it and take out with grenades (possibly capture it too). We can hear them saying that they (axis) have a spotter there somewhere because they know where their AT guns are. So Axis knew what the situation was like. They could have attack first the one near the edge of the map, then the other one...there were options. But (as it usually happens) the only way they actually used was arty.

[kwok]

Sorry, didn't realize i was directly addressed in these posts.

maybe you should hear what they said at the end of the game about the quad fortifications.
i think problem is airborne can build them without any requirements.
but luftwaffe need specialized pioneers first. if they wanted to build 20mm flak. and defensive doctrine need 2nd phase upgrade first. british need field support truck first if they wanted bofor. but airborne? no requirements at all. just select the doctrine and build them with your normal engineers anytime you want.

to kwok.
maybe you did not see it happening in your games. but we can now see it in that game.

and we have other players with more games who say they see it happening. so? this is no argument.

I watched the same game, at no point did the AA come out sooner than it would be available for any other faction/doctrine. I don't know anyone else who say they see it happening.

good luck with your mortar against royal arty doctrine and air strikes from airborne even stuka did not work.

The availability of a mortar is waaay earlier than royal arty bombards and air strikes. In addition, if you tried a smoke attack which I still have YET to see someone try other than Shadow, Barnes, and Wake in all +1200 games I've played... you get a really far range and hide your mortar so you won't be bombarded before you can make a successful attack. Coupled with every other buff that Axis inf can get, AA is not a problem. I've posted tons of replays attacking the HQ base which have on average 2 AA guns with just infantry and mortars. And this is just ONE way of taking out AA emplacements.

[Paso95]

Ok axis can counter the AA quads. But what is the reason why ab engineers can build it much earlier than all the others AA emplacements (keeping in mind that AA quad is one of the best AA emplacement imo)? Is it a balance reason?
Thx

[kwok]

So that USA can decline building tier 2 while other factions just need CP to get AA guns. Cost of getting it for luft is 400mp which lets them gain a combat ready paradrop unit plus the cost of AA. For USA, if it were up a tier, it'd take an engineer retreat to base, build a building, then reposition engineers back to the front/secured area for the AA. The cost of engineer retreats and building is pretty high (in terms of time value). A USA player can make a choice, tier up or build AA, each is costed not by direct resources but time. Other factions don't have time cost. WM can upgrade without pios at base, Brits can field truck without sappers at base, PE can field without grens at base.

[kwok]

This I have seen before. I don't do it myself because I'm an aggressive player that prefers mobile units over emplacements.

[sgtToni95]

I agree with the concept behind making that emp buildable only by AB geneers, but that would require 2 CP to unlock 101st squad, then building Ab barracks and then calling geneers (which don't have any meaningful purpose in combat) just to make emp. At this point a luft player could already have flak and a combat ready squad (even if it's not the best) or maybe even Fallshirm. I think this would just move the "issue" on allies side instead of balancing the situation (if it needs to).

[kwok]

I still don't see where AAs are a problem. Can anyone say the actual problem other than it is not the same as other factions? Because even though it is not the same in actually availability, AA appears at the same time practically. And we keep saying "people build AA right from the beginning" but I still have not seen this happen. Even this example game, it didn't happen. What I saw were players who did not know how to break from their formula and attack something that isn't in another typical formula play.

WHAT is the actual balance problem other something isn't the same? There's a ton of things that aren't the same among factions. For example, mortar availability. WM needs t2 while USA can get it from the bat. PE can get motorized AT tier 1, Brits don't even get mobile AT until tier 2 and post doctrine pick. Just cuz something isn't the same doesn't mean there is a balance problem.

[Viper]

why you double posting?

A USA player can make a choice, tier up or build AA

i think this is the problem. no one can make this choice. but only airborne.

each is costed not by direct resources but time

command points always need time to unlock.

not everything is the same. yes. but here it is unfair. because aa quad is killer. and hard to destroy.

I agree with the concept behind making that emp buildable only by AB geneers, but that would require 2 CP to unlock 101st squad, then building Ab barracks and then calling geneers (which don't have any meaningful purpose in combat) just to make emp. At this point a luft player could already have flak and a combat ready squad (even if it's not the best) or maybe even Fallshirm. I think this would just move the "issue" on allies side instead of balancing the situation (if it needs to).

good point. then maybe airborne engineers should cost much less.

but i can say less health for this quad fortifications is maybe the best thing to do. hp need fix.

[Warhawks97]

When i am thinking quite a bit of it (two days) i do keep on kwoks side.

Ok, lets say US player builds the quad more or less at start he will then have a little territory defended. Allied that keep defending a small part right from start are often doomed to lose. Coz they can barely afford units that can make real breakthoughs. So if i imagine the quad build right from start by AB and i guess not that far away from base what does he achive? US usually must go arround the map from the beginning. Defending untill what? His first weak 110st drops in?

So While AB player delays the tier up (and for a skilled axis player its obvious here) the WH player rushs straight for the mortar (he doesnt need to rush second building for 50 mm and puma coz he knows his US opponent has delays his tier up as well) and bombs the quad continously.

So far ive only seen very early quads somewhere in teamfights when it is coordinated (lets say armor player goes quickly for vehicles. Then the quad saves res for the armor player as he doesnt need to spend much into early inf to counter axis early inf. Or when CW places his mortar next to the quad to counter axis mortars). But then its teamplay which you cant blame for balance issues if you dont teamplay as axis.

[kwok]

Yes, only ab can make a choice because other factions literally don't need to make a choice. It is just ready for them when they need/can build practically.

And I just explained how it's not that hard to kill. You can go through tons of replays I've uploaded, and I can do more. Did you know all support guns outrange AA emplacements? Did you know there are many weapons that are not affected by smoke modifiers and are buffed for emplacement types? Did you know AA guns have a minimum range? Did you know standard axis mortars outrange allied mortars?

If anything, give the satchels back to demo and sabo squads.... it was stupid to change their roles from demolition focused squads into mini sized storm troopers... but nope, classic example of complainers trying to force their playstyles into balance suggestions.

[kwok]

2p_egletons.2016-10-20.22-18-16.rec

(962.53 KiB) Downloaded 36 times

Here, attacking an AA quad as axis. Another replay yet again on attacking AA without blatantly artying.

[JimQwilleran]

Seriously I don't get all this fuss about it. It's just one emplacement, if you have problems with it, just means you are a poor player, that's all. This whole topic is counter-productive imo.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, so finally I can post something!

Is it Tiger who speak? Or Seha? will check that.

It's just that he only shared almost the exact same thoughts on this matter... That's it I think! ^^

But if nobody minds to further enrich the objective discussion once again on this thread, then here is the question which i believe that no one has ever successfully answered yet...

If you build that very early you can fortify one point/area but you lack resources for building units so it is a tradeoff.

And why only Airborne is able to take advantage of such a trade-off? I mean; if it's not really a balance issue, then why can't other factions also do the same? Just for example, why can't Luft doc build 20mm flaks using PanzerGrenadiers?! Why do they firstly have to unlock the Luft Pios in order to construct an equivalent unit? Or why aren't the Def doc Pioneers allowed to build the AA 20mm flak emplacements unless they tier up first?
To me, it just looks like a flaw in balance. Keeping in mind that Luft doc is not alone... But all other factions are the same!

So, again.. why has Airborne doc been given such a special privilege above others? Why this specific doc is having such a simplified method of using the necessary tools to camp quicker.. at least when compared to others?!
While this doc is even supposedly focused on maneuvering capabilities in the first place, and not camping tactics anyhow...

That's all what I meant when I mentioned regarding this matter throughout our game...

I agree with the concept behind making that emp buildable only by AB geneers, but that would require 2 CP to unlock 101st squad, then building Ab barracks and then calling geneers (which don't have any meaningful purpose in combat) just to make emp.

This is a good point for sure, however... I believe there is something you are not aware of!
There is another way to get AB engineers.. much earlier, and even without having to call-in any 101st squads just so you could build the AB HQ Barracks.. where the AB engineers are available to deploy.
As you could actually get into any empty house on the map, using any unit you have.. once you pick up the AB doc... And then; simply you can upgrade the house to an AB HQ!
This can be done even if the house is not located in your own territory btw... That's a tip

But after all, just a side note;

Agreed, this won't change.

It's worth to mention that if this is still the case.. then it's all fine here from my side btw!
As I complain about nothing, neither I am whining at all. And I demand absolutely nothing either... It's just that I am only throwing what I have in my mind, then simply i'll let it be!
Although that I might actually wish if you would probably reconsider your opinions on this issue at some point...

[sgtToni95]

I wonder if you had a countdown clock in your room keeping you updated on your ban end hahaah just joking.
I'm not sure but i think upgrading a building to an Ab hq costs much more than building the "mobile" one. This would still be much more expansive than any way luft has to get one flak imo.. And ab eng would still be meaningless since they have pretty much no purpose in combat while luftpios can still be quite deadly with their weapons loadout. I think other factions can build mg nests to secure locations.. they may not be as effective, ranged and whatever as quad 50 emps are, but they can be built really soon and serve to the same purpose.