Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 02 Mar 2016, 11:20

Again very frustrating nonsense 4v4 against triple terror. Rocket arty spam, up to 8 panther G + KT on the field at the same time and continious spam of super cheap grens.

Teams

Allies Axis

Me ( Inf) Dr. Speedball (luft)
Shadow (raf) Agent Duham (terror)
Andrusha (arty) Wurf (terror)
Puma (inf) Dr. Teleport (terror)

Why devs, why you won't make better distribution of power between docs? Why ones are super op versatile when others are just useless? Further I will write a long text about docs + what can be changed to avoid this frustrating games and stimulate choosing other docs which are outsiders at the moment, and I really want to drag wolf into this discussion.

OP AS HELL

1) Terror

Why?

Combo of inf with basic cost acting like elites, arty punch and best tanks in game.

What can be done?

First of all, fix the grens, if they are supposed to act like elites than they must have 38-39 reinforce cost + longer reinforce time + 450 MP cost, but from my opinion they are basic inf and shouldnt act like elites undermining Luft doc, therefor they must have not elite K98 stats and less HP, they should be as fragile as PE stormgrenadiers.

Panther G, holy shit, just move it to TH doc, that will bring some breath to PE and will solve terror problem at the same time.

Speaking more wide, this imo the best solution we can get relatively easy:

Panther G to TH doc, instead of missing Panther add stuka unlock limited to 1, swap BK and Terror tigers, so that Terror will have version with mounted MG, currently there is no sense why BK can get better Tiger after 4 CP, when terror needs 5 for a worse one. In total, amount and quality of tanks will remain the same for Axis, just better distribution of power between doctrines.Also BK and terror will become slightly more different in that way, BK will be about elite inf + Panther A + very good mediums, Terror about Late tiger version + infantry with stgs for free with fire nades + decent arty support.

2) Infantry

Why?

Combo of nice abilties, good emplacements with incredible inf spam, rangers have the same problem as Terror grens, but only in late game, with CP unlocks they act just like elites undermining the role of AB, having camo, a lot of HP, booby traps, upgraded zooka which used to be only a privilege of elite SAS and 82s, gaining vet. lvl very fast.

What can be done?

Just exclude rangers from cheap Inf unlock, look at the simple fact, in late game they are just as effective as commando costing twice less.

DOCS WHICH ARE OK

Here the docs which are working properly in my opinion and dont need any changes except a very slight ones.

1) Armor doc, super good and cost effective tanks, but absolute lack of infantry or arty support, Its pretty fun to play.
2) RAF, difficult to play, but it has lots of deadly stuff and even good arty unit, in hands of pros really dangerous doc, pretty fun to play.
3) Blitz, very good doc but have it's own weaknesses, the only what I would make is written above, swap Tiger with terror, blitz is about fast rushes and players must build Panther in order to fit in this conception, but currently really a few people use Panther A because Late Tiger is much better due to set of abilities and HP, also this will solve a problem when sometimes on high fuel income maps Tiger comes out after 4 CP, it will still come like this, but without mounted mg.
4) Defence, kinda very situational but not a bad doctrine, to make it more appealing and "tasty" for players I suggest to make Grille and Stupa available without a reward, but one can't be build if other is already on the field, so player will be able to choose according to the situation if he needs an arty unit, or an assault machine. Also make maybe an upgrade which will reduce the price of flaks since they got a HUGE nerf.
5) SE, insane arty punch, good inf, bunch of sneaky stuff, but lacking powerfull offensive units, pretty fun to play.

OUTSIDERS

1) Luft

Why?

Very bad cost efficiency of infantry, units cost 550 MP with extremely high reinforcement cost but are easily stopped by combined forces, generally very high cost on all doc instruments makes impossible to collect a good flexible army, you either roaming arround with a few luft units which are eating all your MP, or play as def doc constructing Flaks and Wirbelwinds as AA.

What can be done?

In next update reg.5 will get a def bonuce after unlock + new airstrike which is nice, but I will add here further point: Mark had a really really good idea to add Luft pioniers into barracks for 260 MP, than Wirbelwind should get a buff, in fact it must be the most devastating inf butcher in game, but at the moment its pretty poor, also maybe slight Flak price drop to 375 MP and 45 Fuel.

2) AB

Why?

Cost efficiency of units is even more terrible than for Luft, moreover doc absolutely lacks of any AT, tanks and Arty capabilties, Airstrike are much worse than raf once.

What can be done?

Price drop to 375 MP for 101s, passive camo for 82s, Thunderbolt patrool should target fortifications, other idea, make a reward option Thunderbolt rocket run for Thunderbolt bombs, AB really needs something against heavy tanks, it's just too frustrating when single Tiger or Panther can overrun the entire doc, it shouldnt be like this.

3) Royal engeniers

Why? Only very narrowly spezialized units for the high price, thats why for launching the atack you need to have a wide set of units but you cant get them because of the price issues, also the most poor reconsistance capabilties in game, RE player are seating blind 90% of the time.

What can be done?
Its confirmed that in the next update they will recieve a price drop on several units + dingo with binoculars without a reward + better Tulip rockets, will see how this will play out, should be OK imho.

4) Royal arty, suddenly. I realised that endless VT's for recce's and spotters have been made by purpose by previous devs. See the reasons below.

Why? Beeing dedicated arty doc this doc can't provide enough punch anymore, you just are not able to counter all the SE arty, stukas, nebels dealing with defences at the same time, and since immobilizations chance got reduced it's no longer easy to kill tanks with Priests. In old times doc conception was pretty logical, doc is only about arty, but the best arty which could handle all enemy arty and defences, it worked in this way: on front you used Recces and Spotters with VT for killing defences and tanks, normal Priest barrages for countering arty. Right now its simply injustice that dedicated arty doc is worse than SE, especially when axis have lots of arty in other doctrines. I found it pretty frustrating to use during last days, because if you are trying to kill defences than enemy counters your priests easily and if you are countering arty than your teammates are in a real lack of arty support for the offense.

What can be done?

Add a third Priest, so player will be able to deal better with defences and arty + return 100 VT range to recce, this really makes no sense that a single allied arty oriented doc has less VT activation range than all other docs. In this case Arty doc will be still much worse than before but better than currently, mobile arty will still remain into axis favout ( 2 Wespe, 2 Hummels, Grille, 1 Stuka, 2 maultiers, 210 mm nebels, 150 mm nebels, Hotchkiss VS 75mm pak howitzers, 3 Priests, Arty sherman, Cali, Arty churchill, Arty Cromwell)

5) Tanks Hunters

Why? Fundamentaly wrong doc conception since axis dont have need in dedicated anti tank doc.

What can be done?

As said before, Panther G instead of useless Nashorn ( but price must be higher than currently, I would set it to 850 MP and 165 Fuel ), fix Hotchkiss, it should have limit of 2 but with the same power of rockets like Walking stuka ( its damn the same rockets man! why are they twice weaker )


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Well, thats a huge text and that's how BK must look like from my point of view, BK with more or less balanced docs strength, BK where you can have fun playing both sides with all docs without getting annoyed. Also please notice that there arent any difficulties, all changes are relatively easy to make.

Let me know your opinions guys, and Im waiting Wolf and Mark to actively participate here.
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Panzer-Lehr-Division
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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 02 Mar 2016, 11:31

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Again very frustrating nonsense 4v4 against triple terror. Rocket arty spam, up to 8 panther G + KT on the field at the same time and continious spam of super cheap grens.

Teams

Allies Axis

Me ( Inf) Dr. Speedball (luft)
Shadow (raf) Agent Duham (terror)
Andrusha (arty) Wurf (terror)
Puma (inf) Dr. Teleport (terror)

Why devs, why you won't make better distribution of power between docs? Why ones are super op versatile when others are just useless? Further I will write a long text about docs + what can be changed to avoid this frustrating games and stimulate choosing other docs which are outsiders at the moment, and I really want to drag wolf into this discussion.

OP AS HELL

1) Terror

Why?

Combo of inf with basic cost acting like elites, arty punch and best tanks in game.

What can be done?

First of all, fix the grens, if they are supposed to act like elites than they must have 38-39 reinforce cost + longer reinforce time + 450 MP cost, but from my opinion they are basic inf and shouldnt act like elites undermining Luft doc, therefor they must have not elite K98 stats and less HP, they should be as fragile as PE stormgrenadiers.

Panther G, holy shit, just move it to TH doc, that will bring some breath to PE and will solve terror problem at the same time.

Speaking more wide, this imo the best solution we can get relatively easy:

Panther G to TH doc, instead of missing Panther add stuka unlock limited to 1, swap BK and Terror tigers, so that Terror will have version with mounted MG, currently there is no sense why BK can get better Tiger after 4 CP, when terror needs 5 for a worse one. In total, amount and quality of tanks will remain the same for Axis, just better distribution of power between doctrines.Also BK and terror will become slightly more different in that way, BK will be about elite inf + Panther A + very good mediums, Terror about Late tiger version + infantry with stgs for free with fire nades + decent arty support.

2) Infantry

Why?

Combo of nice abilties, good emplacements with incredible inf spam, rangers have the same problem as Terror grens, but only in late game, with CP unlocks they act just like elites undermining the role of AB, having camo, a lot of HP, booby traps, upgraded zooka which used to be only a privilege of elite SAS and 82s, gaining vet. lvl very fast.

What can be done?

Just exclude rangers from cheap Inf unlock, look at the simple fact, in late game they are just as effective as commando costing twice less.

DOCS WHICH ARE OK

Here the docs which are working properly in my opinion and dont need any changes except a very slight ones.

1) Armor doc, super good and cost effective tanks, but absolute lack of infantry or arty support, Its pretty fun to play.
2) RAF, difficult to play, but it has lots of deadly stuff and even good arty unit, in hands of pros really dangerous doc, pretty fun to play.
3) Blitz, very good doc but have it's own weaknesses, the only what I would make is written above, swap Tiger with terror, blitz is about fast rushes and players must build Panther in order to fit in this conception, but currently really a few people use Panther A because Late Tiger is much better due to set of abilities and HP, also this will solve a problem when sometimes on high fuel income maps Tiger comes out after 4 CP, it will still come like this, but without mounted mg.
4) Defence, kinda very situational but not a bad doctrine, to make it more appealing and "tasty" for players I suggest to make Grille and Stupa available without a reward, but one can't be build if other is already on the field, so player will be able to choose according to the situation if he needs and arty unit, or assault machine. Also make maybe an upgrade which will reduce the price of flaks since they got a HUGE nerf.
5) SE, insane arty punch, good inf, bunch of sneaky stuff, but lacking powerfull offensive units, pretty fun to play.

OUTSIDERS

1) Luft

Why?

Very bad cost efficiency of infantry, units cost 550 MP with extremely high reinforcement cost but are easily stopped by combined forces, generally very high cost on all doc instruments makes impossible to collect a good flexible army, you either roaming arround with a few luft units which are eating all your MP, or play as def doc constructing Flaks and Wirbelwinds as AA.

What can be done?

In next update reg.5 will get a def bonuce after unlock + new airstrike which is nice, but I will add here further point: Mark had a really really good idea to add Luft pioniers into barracks for 260 MP, than Wirbelwind should get a buff, in fact it must be the most devastating inf butcher in game, but at the moment its pretty poor, also maybe slight Flak price drop to 375 MP and 45 Fuel.

2) AB

Why?

Cost efficiency of units is even more terrible than for Luft, moreover doc absolutely lacks of any AT, tanks and Arty capabilties, Airstrike are much worse than raf once.

What can be done?

Price drop to 375 MP for 101s, passive camo for 82s, Thunderbolt patrool should target fortifications, other idea, make a reward option Thunderbolt rocket run for Thunderbolt bombs, AB really needs something against heavy tanks, it's just too frustrating when single Tiger or Panther can overrun the entire doc, it shouldnt be like this.

3) Royal engeniers

Why? Only very narrowly spezialized units for the high price, thats why for launching the atack you need to have a wide set of units but you cant get them because of the price issues, also the most poor reconsistance capabilties in game, RE player are seating blind 90% of the time.

What can be done?
Its confirmed that in the next update they will recieve a price drop on several units + dingo with binoculars without a reward + better Tulip rockets, will see how this will play out, should be OK imho.

4) Royal arty, suddenly. I realised that endless VT's for recce's and spotters have been made by purpose by previous devs. See the reasons below.

Why? Beeing dedicated arty doc this doc can't provide enough punch anymore, you just are not able to counter all the SE arty, stukas, nebels dealing with defences at the same time, and since immobilizations chance got reduced it's no longer easy to kill tanks with Priests. In old times doc conception was pretty logical, doc is only about arty, but the best arty which could handle all enemy arty and defences, it worked in this way: on front you used Recces and Spotters with VT for killing defences and tanks, normal Priest barrages for countering arty. Right now its simply injustice that dedicated arty doc is worse than SE, especially when axis have lots of arty in other doctrines. I found it pretty frustrating to use during last days, because if you are trying to kill defences than enemy counters your priests easily and if you are countering arty than your teammates are in a real lack of arty support for the offense.

What can be done?

Add a third Priest, so player will be able to deal better with defences and arty + return 100 VT range to recce, this really makes no sense that a single allied arty oriented doc has less VT activation range than all other docs. In this case Arty doc will be still much worse than before but better than currently, mobile arty will still remain into axis favout ( 2 Wespe, 2 Hummels, Grille, 1 Stuka, 2 maultiers, 210 mm nebels, 150 mm nebels, Hotchkiss VS 75mm pak howitzers, 3 Priests, Arty sherman, Cali, Arty churchill, Arty Cromwell)

5) Tanks Hunters

Why? Fundamentaly wrong doc conception since axis dont have need in dedicated anti tank doc.

What can be done?

As said before, Panther G instead of useless Nashorn ( but price must be higher than currently, I would set it to 850 MP and 165 Fuel ), fix Hotchkiss, it should have limit of 2 but with the same power of rockets like Walking stuka ( its damn the same rockets man! why are they twice weaker )


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Well, thats a huge text and that's how BK must look like from my point of view, BK with more or less balanced docs strength, BK where you can have fun playing both sides with all docs without getting annoyed. Also please notice that there arent any difficult, all changes are relatively easy to make.

Let me know your opinions guys, and Im waiting Wolf and Mark to actively participate here.


Well i do not know much about terror i am not so often playing terror but yeah i see alot blobber with terror *me to if i play it lol* anyways Yeah luft is pretty weak regiment 5 are like pioneers from the sky. the rest 1+

Edit: Almost forgotten tulip rockets are the most useless in the game lol
SunZiom: but true is you`re only one man which i know who really know how play PE
CyberdyneModel101: you're unstoppable

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Wurf
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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby Wurf » 02 Mar 2016, 12:36

I'm not saying the terror doc is OP, but finally allies tasted their own arty hell medicine. In my opinion, all arty must be limited in this game , so that it is not so often and not ruin the joy of the game ...

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 02 Mar 2016, 13:11

Wurf wrote:I'm not saying the terror doc is OP, but finally allies tasted their own arty hell medicine. In my opinion, all arty must be limited in this game , so that it is not so often and not ruin the joy of the game ...


Dunno about what arty hell you are talking about, Axis have always had more arty than allies. And topic is not even about arty, it's ok that terror have arty, but crap that doc also has heavy tanks and inf with cost of basics which perform like elites.

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Wurf
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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby Wurf » 02 Mar 2016, 13:43

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Axis have always had more arty than allies

in my opinion it is not true, we could calculate how much this unit costs and particular how much costs shoted - But I can not say with precision because I do not play with Brits.


However, I just wanted to say I am personally tired of these situations - "hey, there is a problem with a lot of infantry,or a lot tanks, or any emplacements - eeeh not matter guys, I resolve it much arty hell".

JimQwilleran
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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby JimQwilleran » 02 Mar 2016, 14:38

I think we should first see how the new patch is going to change the game. From what I hear there will be many nice changes there. But yea, what I really agree with is AB buff. I personally think that RE is quite nice now (if you say there will be scout dingo in it..)

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 02 Mar 2016, 14:48

And than wait another year for another patch to solve the rest of the issues, why not just make all at once.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Mar 2016, 15:30

I like it a lot. Everything you said.

But i also want to offer some suggestions.

Luft doc:

1.The 88´s should not require SD2 bombs. Instead SD2 could require Air recon first. 88´s shouldnt require any previous unlock.
2. Cost of 88: 350 MP, 35 fuel and 30 ammo. The swap to HE rounds would cost 50 ammo or less.
3. Arty barrage to arty for 45 ammo.
4. Reg 5 and gebirgs to max 450 MP drop cost. I think no inf unit should cost more than 450 MP which is still very much. In case its too cheap rather keep or increase reinforce cost.
5. Hetzer swap Tank IV. Also Tank IV and Hetzer independent from each other or Tank IV 1 CP and after that player can decide to go either Panther or Hetzer.
6. Emplaced 88 to 425 or 450 MP, 35 fuel and 30 ammo. Also arty barrage added.
7. As 88´s are cheaper (luft dont need that much ammo due to good standard equipment) and more versatile they shouldnt be that much more resistant to arty fire as howitzers.
8. Buff that god damn quad 20 mm lol. I also made trials and it works very fine. With HE they are infantry hardcounter, with AP good vehicle killer. The downside are reloads after every burst (2.5 sec burst that shreds any target) that takes approx 4-5 seconds.



Luft defense would be provided by 88, Gebirgs and hetzer which arent that expensive to get and thus can act together much better.
For the offense Luft could quickly get Reg 5 backed by quickly build nacked 88 way back from front providing VT support.


Armor doc:

1. Remove Rangers
2. Add combat engineers that are available after motorpool is up, 5 men strong and 225 MP expensive. Those could work together with tanks during offense.
3. cheap 105 arty sherman(s) with reduced range and cost for close firer support standing behind the assault tank force+calli(s)
4. Jumbo with 75 mm.

Inf doc:

1. Rangers 300 MP after mass prod. Limit the normal produced one to 4 (or 3) squads (CQC and infiltration squad is still there as well).
2. Therefore Rangers would become capable elites and core offense unit backed by arty.
3. Better VT
4. (ALL) Emplacment cost ammo and fuel (except those which atm cost only ammo shouldnt cost fuel). E.G. 107 pit could be: 400 MP, 40 ammo, 25 fuel
That can prevent that camp/bomb tactics as players couldnt do both so well.


Terror doc

I agree fully with sukin.

Grens with doctrinal upgrades?!


AB

I also fully agree. The bomber patrole should target emplacments. In fact, they should first target those with their bombs.
Rocket ride could be unlocked with bomber, both share one cooldown.

But i made some trials for myself. Its easily possible to add a third one and/or increasing the damage of bombs in the explosion center. Maybe 1.5 or 1.75 damage modifier in a circle of 2 or 3. That way the bombs would finally have the damage to kill tanks with direct hits. The current 700 damage per bomb can only kill tanks if both bombs hit more or less directly which barely happens.

82nd camo, 375 MP 101st and maybe binocular to recon squad (works, tested it). So AB would become kind of Airborne and reconassaince doctrine.

Also some unlocks could be more independend. Mortar/HMG, supply drop/pak. That would greatly increase the flexibility of the doc in every aspect. And due to reconassaince advantage able to react faster on incoming threats.


RE

Better unit price tag. Honestly. The late game is often a pain for CW. A loss of a sapper squad quickly throws back the entire RE doc as it requires the cost of an urgent tank just to get a sapper squad back.

What about 25 pdr´s? They have low damage, low accuracy but at least they would be something RE could spend its ammo for and would allow RE to weaken powerfull defenses while collecting enough tanks for a critical assault. And RE would make at least some use of them since RA is usually 75 mm HT and priest. 25 pdr´s could be in both docs though.

Also can we add HE mode for standard sherman to make that unit more valuable for CW?


BK doc

One of the best docs (or the best) in hands of good players. I would exclude the Ostwind from Tank IV mass prod. Too often they get spammed as infantry assault support tanks. I also got an idea for AA units in general.

TH

What if

1. Nashorn shares Jagdpanzer IV/70 unlock.
2. Panther G where Nashorn is, just that it requires Tank IV H unlock. In total 6 CP for Panther G at least


ALL

AA units
Off topic but it might fit into it here. As we all know most AA units are pretty deadly for their cost (Just wirbel and CW AA tank are... meh quite often).


What about adding ammo cost for all or most AA tanks/units? In return they could become real infantry hardcounters as i think that some docs (e.g RE are struggling too often with late game inf, even when using AA tanks).


So what about:

Wirbelwind: 550 MP, 55 fuel and 30 ammo. HE switch would cost 50 ammo instead 75. With AP it would counter any vehicle, with HE very deadly infantry killer. I mean way more deadly as now, simply a hardcounter or kind of that.

Ostwind: 550 MP, 55 fuel and 30 ammo. Add suppression and HE mode 50 ammo. Not affected by mass prod.

M15 and m16. approx 320-340 MP, 30-35 fuel and also 25-30 ammo.

CW crusader AA: 500 MP, 50 fuel and 30 ammo.

Möbelwagen idk, could maybe stay as it is to make Def more appealing as AA doc.



That way AA units wouldnt be used that often as assault tanks and normal tanks could become more appealing. Meanwhile Air doctrines wouldnt be countered that easy. Atm (depending on map) BK player gets quickly two cheap ostwind, Allied air supremacy (which is cruical for AB for example) wouldnt be killed that fast.

Also AA tanks wouldnt be spammed vs inf and instead used as hardcounter if enemie really comes with overwhelming infantry. Currently they cant counter hardcore infantry (elites or masses) and instead get build whenever small ammounts of enemie inf shows up.

Thats just my thought behind it. Powerfull AA units should be more a strategic long term investment build when inf/air power becomes an issue. They shouldnt be cheap and used whenever enemie starts using some inf. That undermines the role of many normal tanks and light vehicles supposed for such roles the AA´s have currently taken.

thx for the attention, thx for that topic.

Wake
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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby Wake » 02 Mar 2016, 16:12

I've always thought that in this stage of BK development, where there is not much emphasis on changing unit values or moving doctrines around, or doing any large changes, the easiest way to "fix" problems would just be to edit prices of units. That's one reason why I made the tech tree.

I agree with most of Sukin and Warhawk's points, except that:

-AA Tanks: These are fine right now. Just increase Wirbelwind damage. (fun fact: US 37mm AT gun can penetrate Ostwind/Wirbelwind)
-Rangers: No changes needed, late-game infantry doc relies on ranger spam to win
-450 MP for Luftwaffe: No way!!!! Commandos cost 450 MP! These 2 units are NOT equal. Reg 5 Fallscrhimjaegers have a higher damage output than commandos, even at close range, and Gebirgs slaughter them at long range. I would go as low as 525 MP, and maybe reduce the reinforce cost from 45 to 44 or something.
-Armor Doc: Rangers are needed for early game, when armor doc more or less hasn't come into effect yet. I don't think they need combat engineers either. The combat engineers don't have the role of "combat repair", but rather "destroy emplacements", which fits more into infantry doc. Armor already gets the expert repair engineers that some players even use while in combat. I support the reduced 105 Sherman price. I am against adding the Jumbo 75mm, as it goes against the "spam M4 Sherman" ideal of the doctrine, however, if other people disagree, then add it in. I'm just afraid that the Jumbo 75 + Jumbo 76 together would be some sort of monster unstoppable force, equivalent to the Panther G.

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Just exclude rangers from cheap Inf unlock, look at the simple fact, in late game they are just as effective as commando costing twice less.


This is not a problem with Rangers, this is a problem with commandos (38 to reinforce!)

I agree with all other points though, especially moving the Blitzkrieg Tiger "Late Version" to Terror doc and the 25 pounder for RE. The third Priest for arty doc is pretty good too, considering that it costs 780 MP for each one, and most maps don't even have a large enough munition income to support three Priests at the same time.

I'm still not sure about moving the Panther G to TH doc, since that is a very large change and I think the devs are against that idea. But, it is a good solution. That and the Panzer IV mass production for TH as well. If the Panther G stays and is not moved, then at least nerf it somehow.

If there is one thing that we could all agree on for the next patch, it is to reduce the Panther G's effectiveness.
Last edited by Wake on 03 Mar 2016, 19:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 02 Mar 2016, 16:32

Wake wrote:-Rangers: No changes needed, late-game infantry doc relies on ranger spam to win


They do, indeed, but imho together with all other benefits they get like very cheap weapon upgrades, camo, hp boost, vet 1 by default it's simply too much for unit which costs 270 MP, even 360 is quite cheap for that. Moreover inf doc is swiming in mp all the time, even without rangers price reduction they easily can get up to 6 of them. Commando reinforce is ok for a late game when they have brens for free and vet 2, also they are quite durable after this CP unlocks.

And regarding Panther G, I dont think that it is a unit OP itself, its just overperfoming in context of terror. In TH which is much more limited in MP, doesnt have schrecks in each squad and arty call ins and Walking Stuka it could be OK. I really can't get the point of people who says that Panther in TH will be OP lol, it cant be more OP than currently in terror, yes, it will be even better with zimmerit, but TH as a doc has a lot of cons unlike terror, in old times TH had all the tanks including Tiger Ace and KT even and it was OK for the players somehow, but now a single panther will make it op? oh, cmon.

Erich
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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby Erich » 02 Mar 2016, 17:04

i agree with everything,but i wonder if tiger will agree about his tiger being move to terror doc.


i also have a idea,why not change the stg cp ability,i mean when u enable this ability you will make stg more cheap not for free. Maybe 50 to 45 or 35 ammo?

Kasbah
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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby Kasbah » 02 Mar 2016, 17:44

I agree with everything, good post.

Unfortunately I've been asking the Panther G to be moved to TH for a while and the devs are against it. I don't understand either the OP argument, it's already OP in blitz and terror, where Tiger and KT are also available. I also asked for a mass production in TH because leading an attack with this is a real shit andTank Hunters MG's are useless against infantry, even paying 35 ammo, but the answer has been is "you don't know how to play this doc". I also don't see the Nashorn there, shit, it is supposed to be an offensive doc, the only real offensive PE doc!

About Wiberlwind yes man

450 mp for the gebirsg seems a little low tough...maybe 500.

Yes for everything else.

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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby Wake » 02 Mar 2016, 19:41

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
They do, indeed, but imho together with all other benefits they get like very cheap weapon upgrades, camo, hp boost, vet 1 by default it's simply too much for unit which costs 270 MP, even 360 is quite cheap for that. Moreover inf doc is swiming in mp all the time, even without rangers price reduction they easily can get up to 6 of them. Commando reinforce is ok for a late game when they have brens for free and vet 2, also they are quite durable after this CP unlocks.


No, see, that's the thing. Rangers don't get vet 1 by default after the upgrade, while all other factions "elite" infantry do. They also cost 295 MP now instead of 270. That got changed in the most recent patch specifically because of people saying they were too cheap. Their HP boost is also quite minimal - Warhawks once showed this to me. If I remember correctly, it's like a +10 HP boost. Meanwhile, the stormtrooper upgrade in Blitz doc gives storms a lot more. Warhawks, please clarify this. The most important part of the ranger upgrade is that they get the ability to camouflage.

I previously thought that masses of terror grenadiers with flame nades + 4 StGs would always beat infantry doc, but I was wrong. After they get the ranger upgrade, the CQB squads and rangers with thompsons can camo in shell craters, and when the terror grenadiers get in close range, the rangers attack. At that close range, the thompson does more damage than the StG. This is incredibly effective when combined with snipers.

But, shifting that aside, the consequences of taking away the rangers from the reduced price upgrade would be that players would use rangers much less often. Instead, they would be using riflemen with double BARs that cost a measly 175 MP and 18 to reinforce, and just 40 munition for two BARs, and can also come back from ambulances for free. This would definitely affect Inf doc's AT abilities though, since riflemen can't get bazookas, while rangers can. This would then make players rely on the AT squad, which also gets a price reduction to 250 MP.

In the last patch, they actually took away the AT squads ability to get a third bazooka, but also gave the upgraded bazooka to the rangers. Before, only the AT squads got the M6A3C rockets. I think the intent was to reduce the amount of bazookas in infantry doc. However, in effect, there are actually more bazookas, since technically, you can make unlimited rangers who now also have the better bazooka.

--------

I would like to see in some sort of test, if TH doc getting the panzer 4 mass production and the unchanged Panther G would be OP. I'm just afraid that it would adversely affect TH doc though. Because if the change happened, it wouldn't be the "Tank Hunter" doc, it would be the "Panzer IV + Panther G" doc. I can still see it being balanced, however, because allied players will know exactly how to counter it. If you see an enemy player pick the new TH doc, then you make AT guns (17 pounders). Other than that, TH wouldn't have much. If the hotchkiss rockets stay unchanged, then they are pretty bad and won't be good artillery. And TH wouldn't have enough manpower to get the 950 MP waffen SS squad.

I do want to point out though that if the Panther G gets moved to TH, AND the hotchkiss gets better rockets that are equivalent to the stuka, then that just shifts some of the "OP" problems of terror doc to TH. The 3 things that make terror "OP" are Good infantry (grens) + Good tank (Panther G) + Good Artillery (Stuka). TH would then get Good Artillery (Stuka) + Better tank (Panther G with zimmerit and default vet 1). The only thing they lack would be the infantry. Is that a good thing?
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Re: Another ridicolous terror battle

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 02 Mar 2016, 19:54

Wake wrote:No, see, that's the thing. Rangers don't get vet 1 by default after the upgrade, while all other factions "elite" infantry do. They also cost 295 MP now instead of 270. That got changed in the most recent patch specifically because of people saying they were too cheap. Their HP boost is also quite minimal - Warhawks once showed this to me. If I remember correctly, it's like a +10 HP boost. Meanwhile, the stormtrooper upgrade in Blitz doc gives storms a lot more. Warhawks, please clarify this. The most important part of the ranger upgrade is that they get the ability to camouflage.


You might be right, but than some other change is needed, I don't think it's ok that inf doc can reach 200-250 pop cap army in 35-40 minutes, maybe a limit for a 3 rangers only, so there will be 5 in totall together with infiltration rangers from the special truck, or propose something else.

Wake wrote:I would like to see in some sort of test, if TH doc getting the panzer 4 mass production and the unchanged Panther G would be OP. I'm just afraid that it would adversely affect TH doc though. Because if the change happened, it wouldn't be the "Tank Hunter" doc, it would be the "Panzer IV + Panther G" doc.


I withdrew the idea about cheap panzers for TH, because it didnt meet much support from players and it will be bad to have similar unlock in two docs since cheap pz4s are already exist in BK.

Wake wrote:I do want to point out though that if the Panther G gets moved to TH, AND the hotchkiss gets better rockets that are equivalent to the stuka, then that just shifts some of the "OP" problems of terror doc to TH. The 3 things that make terror "OP" are Good infantry (grens) + Good tank (Panther G) + Good Artillery (Stuka). TH would then get Good Artillery (Stuka) + Better tank (Panther G with zimmerit and default vet 1). The only thing they lack would be the infantry. Is that a good thing?


Well, they won't have schrecks in every squad, no fire nades, very vulnerable to snipers + Hotchkiss is a slow shit and its very easy to counter it with arty or simply when you make a breakthrough Hotchkiss usually can't even retreat xD, also 4 rockets instead of 6. Keep in mind that PE units are much more expensive, so getting a combo of Panther G + couple of stormgrenadiers + 2 Hotchkiss will require a very carefull play style for a long time. Also less spare ammo because no Stgs for free, no arty call ins like firestorm and V1, no stormgrenadiers with 2 nebels VT. Imo thats different enough in order to not repeat OP way of terror.

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Re: Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 03 Mar 2016, 13:57

Dont Forget! Wirbelwind can die by the very smallest allies pak! by like 4-5 shoots but sometimes even instant immobilize or kills maingun
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Re: Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

Postby JimQwilleran » 03 Mar 2016, 14:27

Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:Dont Forget! Wirbelwind can die by the very smallest allies pak! by like 4-5 shoots but sometimes even instant immobilize or kills maingun
And this is ok, chassis of that tank is panzer IV, but the turret, both Wirbel and Ostwind, are just steel plates of 20 mm... so frankly even .50 cal should be able to kill those tanks :D.

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Re: Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

Postby kwok » 03 Mar 2016, 14:41

Hmm... But panzer has brought up an interesting point though. The wirbel is a p4 chassis with 20mm turret; it's awfully expensive for such a flimsy tank that really only serves 2 purposes: AA and anti inf. I feel the wirbel is obsolete, hardly used, because luft has many equally effective and cheaper alternatives. Not saying this is a real issue in terms of balance, I don't think luft needs the wirbel that much. But maybe getting a price to match the efficiency can add more variety and maybe even some counter play to inf doc that people claim is so OP.

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Re: Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

Postby Warhawks97 » 03 Mar 2016, 17:01

Rangers M1 is still nothing compared to current WH Gren K98. And still inferior to WH volksgren k98 at distant (and maybe also long range).

Rangers have 75 HP, later 85 after upgrade, storms have 95 at default, luft inf 80 and AB 82nd 85) but they all have different TT.

The rangers are best compared to PE heavy assault grens. Both have 75 HP and same or similiar target type (tp_riflemen_elite for ranger, tp_soldier fror PE grens) that reduces incoming (small arms) accuracy by 25%. So they are durable defenders (just not really usefull without good long range weapons) but in offense worse as basic axis grens with stgs actually.

And yes, they dont have vet 1 after upgrade but they gain 50% more experience which means they gonna vet up very fast.

The infiltration rangers have (iirc) 80 hp and after upgrade then 90 HP.

In general rangers are best compared to PE heavy assault grens i think, just that the Pgrens can repair etc, rangers later camo but more versatile due to zook.

However, i am not sure about rangers. Take them away from the mass prod and inf wont have much for late game. No competetive arty (only off map momentum arty which loses on value later on), barely offensive AT (atm that cheap rangers with upgraded zooks and sticky+ambush is exactly what helps me to a chance vs late game armor) and then just rifles that either exceed micro limit, just feed enemies or sit in trenches as some kind of back up.

I mean what will inf doc be? Even more emplacments+super fast dying and cheap conscripts (rifles)? What will be the offense? What you gonna do with few rangers against different Panther/aa tanks and good defensive axis infantry with deadly ranged weapons that shred half of the rangers before they get even close enough. You might give them the Airborne tp to make them better for offense but well, its up to you guys.

But i dont want to participate that much anymore. You asked me for datas, you got them.

@kwok: Boost quad 20 mm, especially the AP rounds so that it also shreds vehicles and all would be fine.

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Re: Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

Postby crimax » 03 Mar 2016, 17:09

Remove KCHs from Terror Doc was wrong decision, totally wrong.

I don't remember exactly the reason but it was something related to realism/history ... ridiculous arguments anyway.

Update after update, now we have Grenadiers with same abilities (phosphorus grenade + VT) and almost same stats BUT unlimited number of units and less price .... YAY !!!

Another Hole in the Water .....
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Re: Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

Postby Warhawks97 » 03 Mar 2016, 17:44

crimax wrote:Remove KCHs from Terror Doc was wrong decision, totally wrong.

I don't remember exactly the reason but it was something related to realism/history ... ridiculous arguments anyway.

Update after update, now we have Grenadiers with same abilities (phosphorus grenade + VT) and almost same stats BUT unlimited number of units and less price .... YAY !!!

Another Hole in the Water .....


the problem simply was that nobody was aware of the grenadiers power. We all thought its simply "standard" infantry. And Terror doc was supposed to get no elite inf and instead basic inf with special stuff (Terror inf passive and active boosts, stgs, flames) that still doesnt reach elite infs strenght. But we have simply got "standard inf" that outmatches often (by far) every elite inf in game combined with very very easy use and most importantly little skill actually.

Terror was supposed to have rocket arty, good tanks and standard inf with some special toys. Now we have only cheap elite units there. And KcH removal was the best ever happaned to BK. Absolutely off units. Not realistic, no skill (for brain dead people) and they didnt offer any tactically versatility, just stupid rush and retreat super bullcrap and winning battles from an insane inferior tactically initial situation.


Just grens need to be tweaked (HP, boosts, rifle stats) and things would be fine at first. Adjust the periscope/gunsight upgrades of tanks (all are overpriced, just Panther G becomes a recon unit with super accuracy).

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Re: Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

Postby Tiger1996 » 03 Mar 2016, 21:59

Terror doc has got nothing really against the early Inf doc Jumbos... They are lacking any early good medium tanks such as Pz4 Hs for example and this is doubtlessly a serious weak point, as it's definitely not OP at any possible aspect.. nerf the Terror Grens and then I could assure u that the whole WH faction won't be ever played again.
We already removed the KCH; the only remaining elite infantry for this faction are the Storms, and they were also nerfed! On the other hand u get Combat Engineers early game.. CBQs at mid game and infiltration Rangers in late game of which are all very special inf squads... So, just a single 1 US doc actually includes 3 different specialized elite inf squad types while all the WH has got only 1 elite inf type in return.

Currently the late Allied inf units are much more powerful than any other late game Axis inf squads btw.. except the Storms maybe, but even those still can't win the game just alone for sure! So... Speaking about or even asking to nerf the Terror doc isn't anyhow acceptable.. unless the Inf doc also get to be roughly nerfed so bad.

Not to mention that moving the Blitz Tiger to the Terror doc as a swap with the Terror one is actually a joke...
Moving the Panther G to the TH doc, well.. again??!!

Yet, there are still some points that I might agree with at the end, such as moving the Combat Engineers to the Armor doc etc. But I wouldn't ask that much since that these kind of points have been already denied for some reasons before.. as I highly doubt if both Wolf or MarKr would ever manage to come here anymore again in order to participate or reply the exact same suggestions once more down here. Therefore, this will be my first and also my last post here on this topic just to clarify my viewpoint...

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Re: Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 03 Mar 2016, 22:02

JimQwilleran wrote:
Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:Dont Forget! Wirbelwind can die by the very smallest allies pak! by like 4-5 shoots but sometimes even instant immobilize or kills maingun
And this is ok, chassis of that tank is panzer IV, but the turret, both Wirbel and Ostwind, are just steel plates of 20 mm... so frankly even .50 cal should be able to kill those tanks :D.


But panzer 4 e etc bounces small paks easily so i wounder..
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Re: Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

Postby MarKr » 03 Mar 2016, 22:45

I can see people mention Wirblewind a lot. The HE ammo is actually quite effective against infantry, weapon crews and emplacement crews. The HE ammo is going to be changed for Ost/Wirblewind too (pay one-time upgrade and ammo switching is for free) I think it is improvement over the current system, where ammo switching for these units is ammo-heavy and so not used very often.
I can check its armor. I think it uses the same armor as PIV F2, not sure without checking though.
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Re: Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 03 Mar 2016, 23:00

MarKr wrote:I can see people mention Wirblewind a lot. The HE ammo is actually quite effective against infantry, weapon crews and emplacement crews. The HE ammo is going to be changed for Ost/Wirblewind too (pay one-time upgrade and ammo switching is for free) I think it is improvement over the current system, where ammo switching for these units is ammo-heavy and so not used very often.
I can check its armor. I think it uses the same armor as PIV F2, not sure without checking though.


What i simply mean it is not worth its Price, and i bet alot People would agree.

Edit: even lowering the Price of the wirbel, would be a good small buff for luft!
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Re: Ridicolous terror battle + suggestions for doc rework

Postby JimQwilleran » 03 Mar 2016, 23:12

Tiger1996 wrote: On the other hand u get Combat Engineers early game.. CBQs at mid game and infiltration Rangers in late game of which are all very special inf squads... So, just a single 1 US doc actually includes 3 different specialized elite inf squad types while all the WH has got only 1 elite inf type in return.


How are combat engineers elite inf xD? They die like engineers. And CBQ has health of rifles, they are not "elite". Inf doc rangers are as "elite" as terror grens. Seriously you have now exaggerated.

Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:
But panzer 4 e etc bounces small paks easily so i wounder..
Because little gun is shooting the 20mm, weak turret of wirbel and ostwind.

MarKr wrote:I can see people mention Wirblewind a lot. The HE ammo is actually quite effective against infantry, weapon crews and emplacement crews. The HE ammo is going to be changed for Ost/Wirblewind too (pay one-time upgrade and ammo switching is for free) I think it is improvement over the current system, where ammo switching for these units is ammo-heavy and so not used very often.
I can check its armor. I think it uses the same armor as PIV F2, not sure without checking though.


The armor of wirbel and ostwind should not be changed imo. They are not supposed to be assault vehicles. They are self-propelled anti-aircraft gun that OCCASIONALLY were used to fight infantry. For breaking into enemy lines both docs have panthers and blitz has also tigers with additional mg on the top.


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