PE stormpioniers

[kwok]

Eh flamethrowers are tricky. They are often not bought because they don't do much damage and have a high chance of friendly fire since engineers can't hold position. It's funny sometimes I just stand there and let flamethrowers hit me because I expect the attacking (me) engineers to end up killing themselves before hitting me. The only time I use flamethrowers is if I have two under smoke. It gives the dmg output needed to clear mass emplacements quickly, no accuracy penalties, and let's my engineers survive just a bit longer to clear the emplacements.
For se, you lose mp40 upgrade for flame upgrade, which I never find worth doing. I normally get the mp40 upgrade then choose SE so I have an early cqc squad that sometimes carries over to late game since assault grens are so expensive.

[Butterkeks]

But the MP40 upgrade has no requirement so you can buy it pretty much anywhere. I guess there should be at least "own territory" requirement.

What?
Are you sure about this? I always thought that every weapon upgrade had the requirement to be in own territory.
It forces you to plan your attack before you launch it, so I'd say it should be this way for every weapon upgrade.

[MarKr]

What?
Are you sure about this?

Pretty much, yes... I tried it yesterday and the MP40 upgrade was usable even when the Flamethrower upgrade was unavailable due to requirements (own territory or ammo HT).

I think that at least the "own territory" should be required.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Wolf says we can try this. So expect Sturm pios earlier .

Good news

[Wake]

The upgrades and abilities with Sturmpioneers are a little weird with SE.

Pretty much, there are only 3 upgrade "slots" that they get. Normally, they can get a flamethrower for 65 munition, or 2 MP40s for 25 munition. They also have the "hold position" button.

However, if you go SE doc, then they get more upgrades. They can now get 2 flamethrowers instead of 1, but the MP40s are "replaced" by a fire bomb upgrade and an incendiary bundle grenade upgrade. Their hold position button also gets "replaced" by the ability to plant the fire bomb. However, the MP40 upgrade didn't dissapear. If you get the fire bomb upgrade, then the MP40 upgrade reveals itself, because it was "hidden" under the fire bomb.

[XAHTEP39]

Wolf says we can try this. So expect Sturm pios earlier .

MarKr, now, SturmPioneers have booby-traps only in SE; It will be not bad, that SturmPioneers will be have StockMine 43 (booby-trap) in Luft and TH and S-Mine 35 in SE (instead StockMine 43, of course), such as WH Pioneers in all docs have booby-traps (Germans was in defensive war, so they used any mines widespread as opposed Allies).

[MarKr]

If I understand you want to give mines to Sturmpioneers. I think that it was intention that PE has less mine options than WH. Don't ask me what was the reason behind it but I doubt the original devs would forget to give mines to most PE units. I don't think Wolf will support this idea but we'll see.

[XAHTEP39]

If I understand you want to give mines to Sturmpioneers. I think that it was intention that PE has less mine options than WH. Don't ask me what was the reason behind it but I doubt the original devs would forget to give mines to most PE units. I don't think Wolf will support this idea but we'll see.

...To give exclusively anti-personal mines (Stockmine 43 and S-Mine 35 in SE) only to SturmPioneers (not to most PE units), not anti-tank mines. For all that, SturmPioneers is a Pioneers, which is trained to use explosives including mines.

[MarKr]

If you use this "real world" argument then "Sturm" means "attack" in german language. So their purpose is to support attack with clearing fortifications (and they have the equipment for that - bundle grenades, demolitions, possible flamethrowers...) so if you support attack, where do you get time for laying mines all over the place?

SE is an exception because they are kind of defensive-based faction.

[Warhawks97]

SE is an exception because they are kind of defensive-based faction.

thats an assumption. SE does actually not mean to defend hard with a strong defense line but rather slowing down enemie advance. So idk if i would generally say "SE is defenive based".

If i would, pure from my understanding (gameplay as well as historical reasons) i would actually say that Luft is the "PE defensive doc". 88´s, ambush with units, good panzerfaust and ranged weapons and 88 as well as 20 mm flak. One inf squad with defensive bonus and both with excellent equipment for stopping lots of engaging enemie inf from a superior possition. Also TP heroic which makes them way more resistant to HE shots and other AoE stuff.


anyway. We be good not to try to make general assumptions about Pe docs, especially as nobody really knows atm what PE should be in game and how docs should perform and if they should be more focused on offensive or defensive.

[MarKr]

thats an assumption. SE does actually not mean to defend hard with a strong defense line but rather slowing down enemie advance. So idk if i would generally say "SE is defenive based".

Defensive-based or "meant to slow down enemy" whatever it's just playing with words, my point applies anyway - mines slow down enemy advance.

[Wake]

I think a separate thread should be made regarding the topic that creeps in on other threads: How to make PE better?

[Kasbah]

I think a separate thread should be made regarding the topic that creeps in on other threads: How to make PE better?

Right because PE has basically defensive docs. SE is defensive with (mostly) arty, Luft is defensive with Flaks and infantry and TH is defensive with tank hunters. I rarely see players choosing ONLY PE docs as they rely on Wehrmacht to lead offensives

[JimQwilleran]

Right because PE has basically defensive docs. SE is defensive with (mostly) arty, Luft is defensive with Flaks and infantry and TH is defensive with tank hunters. I rarely see players choosing ONLY PE docs as they rely on Wehrmacht to lead offensives

Not true, luft is offensive doc. And I am not talking about what it is "meant to be" (88's, 20mm, defensive bonsu). Most of people use luft for inf that is as good in offensive as in defensive and panther (weak but still).
Imo luft is good in a tactic of "capture a bit of territory, defeat enemy counterattack with entrenched inf, flak support, henshel AT patrol, deny enemy traps with vampire - then advance a bit again.

For me it seems that luft is balanced between defense and attack. Still it can launch a better attack than def doc (witch relies only on grille/stupa, some grens and elephant).

[Kasbah]

Wher docs are more offensive than PE's. Blitzkrieg is offensive, Terror is offensive, even def with Stupa that destroys anything moving, excellent tank hunters, brutal emplacements (both at and anti infantry) all kind of half tracks, very nice arty, is more offensive and more versatile than any PE doc.

[XAHTEP39]

If you use this "real world" argument then "Sturm" means "attack" in german language. So their purpose is to support attack with clearing fortifications (and they have the equipment for that - bundle grenades, demolitions, possible flamethrowers...) so if you support attack, where do you get time for laying mines all over the place?

SE is an exception because they are kind of defensive-based faction.

Yes, good argument, MarKr.
In this case, probably default PGrens (360MP) will equip AP mines (just Stockmine 43) at start?

[MarKr]

I don't know...I may ask Wolf about this but I think that PE is simply a faction that is not meant to have mines in every doc on every engineer unit. For Axis the king of creating mine-fields is Def doc - they have anti-personel, multipurpose and AT mines, even for lower costs with Command Tree upgrade and if you add to that the new mine-laying system that will be introduced in the upcomming patch, you will be able to lay mines like crazy with them .