PE stormpioniers

Do you have a balancing problem or do you want to make a suggestion for the game? You are at the right place.

Can stormpioniers be available in barracks right from the start?

Yes, will help a lot
16
89%
No, would be OP
0
No votes
I dont care
2
11%
 
Total votes: 18

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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PE stormpioniers

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 15 Feb 2016, 12:26

Since there are a lot of complains that PE is rather weak now, I got an idea about their early game perfomance. Currently it's very difficult to play agressively ( AT boys hit with every shot, bulletproof bren, better garands and very dangerous jeep ). Actually the only chance for PE to rush is a mad Scout car ride, but It can work only if american player havent produced pak and his brit mate havent placed AT boys somewhere nearby.

But in case if you build barracks you really can only stay in defence since there you have 435 MP stormgrens which perfomance without upgrades isn't much higher than those of volksgrenadiers, so you get pzgrens + stormgrens when USA at the same time deploys Jeep + 2 rifles, one with Greese guns from the start. Other options are also about defence only, like mg42 + schwim or Sniper + Pak.

My suggestion is to make Stormpioniers available right from the barracks without building infantry company, so you can make an attempt for a rush using pzgrens + stormpioniers + schwim for instance.

The reasons why it wont be OP

- they have only 2 Stg44, ind doc can produce combat engeniers with 3 Thompsons + 3 Greese right from the start. Rifles also have M3 + since Garand got buff PE simply looses every close-range fight.

- they die very fast if move without cover or sprinting

- they have Granade bundle which costs 50 ammo, hence they won't be able to use nades at the start unlike volks, rifles, pzgrens or inf section

After this changes PE will have an option to fight off allied troops in close quarters finally and will allow more tactical options, because currently they are quite poor, you either go for a second building hoping that allies won't have enough AT at the positions to stop scout car, or build barracks and go absolultely passively waiting for the mortar half truck.

Let me know you opinions.
Last edited by Sukin-kot (SVT) on 15 Feb 2016, 15:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Tiger1996
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Tiger1996 » 15 Feb 2016, 13:08

Hmm, well.. fine with me... :)

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Panzer-Lehr-Division
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 15 Feb 2016, 14:09

Ofc, they late game useless and i only make them lategame to make mortar bunker lol
SunZiom: but true is you`re only one man which i know who really know how play PE
CyberdyneModel101: you're unstoppable

JimQwilleran
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby JimQwilleran » 15 Feb 2016, 15:02

After my coming back I decided to play more PE, and yes what Sukin says is true. Early PE has no chance vs good Brits player imo. AT boys deny any form of PE mechanized support and Pzgrens are no match for Brit inf squad. It is a problem for PE especially when you face Brit player on a narrow map where mortar emplacement can lock your inf. Then your only chance is mortar halftrack (which is stupid, especially vs flying through walls PIATS)

This is a nice idea imo, but on the other hand I guess that if devs approve it, the cost of stormpioniers would be changed a little bit.

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Warhawks97
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Feb 2016, 15:40

I wish i could show you my vision......:)

Generally about PE early i would make following changes:

1. Logistic company upgrade does not require the infantry support building anymore. Thus important vehicles like the wheeled 20 mm vehicle would come earlier. Vehicles like the 250 with stubby 75 mm should not require the logistic upgrade anymore.

2. Any kind of infantry should, if even, the inf support center and not logistic company. So players can choose between going vehicles (log, then kampf and finally log upgrade) or more infantry focused (kampf+inf support center). But atm some inf needs logistic company (AT squad), others inf support center and the hauptsturmführer even logistic upgrade.

3. I also want to bring up the idea of PE starting with 5 or 4 men squads. That way Pgrens or Stormpios could drop to 300 (5 men starting) or even 340 MP (4 men) build cost. The heavy assault could drop to 370 (5 men) or even 300 MP (4 men starting) while cost remain like that even after the 6th or 5th men is upgraded.

4. The stormpios spawning entirely with mp40 and 2x stg44. Atm 2 x StG and 4 men k98 makes little sense to me.


So at the end player could go kampf+inf support building and having access to grens, assault grens, stormpios which would cost less due to squad size reduction but also AT squad, (sniper), hauptsturmführer (thus SS), schwimmwagen, Opel Blitz and 37 mm AT . And the gren+stormpios enables the player to have one ranged 5 or 4 men rifle squad (the K98 stats would be buffed from current Volksgrenadier to current WH stormtrooper stats in case they would be 4 men) but also a 4-5 men squad of stormpios with 2 stgs and 2 or 3 MP 40.

Keep in mind: 4 men squad wouldnt effectively increase per men cost. Just calculate 12 men: Either current 2x 360 MP (Grens) or 3x240 MP. The cost remains same, just way increased flexibility and less hurtfull squad whipes.

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 15 Feb 2016, 15:45

Shit man, we heard this one hundred times, topic is about different thing.

Kasbah
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Kasbah » 15 Feb 2016, 16:11

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Shit man, we heard this one hundred times, topic is about different thing.


hahaha, lol!

Although I would remove normal PE squads and replace them by stormpioniers as basic infantry squad, because they are properly engineers who have close combat weapons, (gewehr is not very useful in early game) and leave the assault squads for offensive. But as this is not going to happen I support your idea.

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XAHTEP39
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby XAHTEP39 » 15 Feb 2016, 20:14

I support this idea about SturmPioneers, Maxim! :)
Last edited by XAHTEP39 on 19 Feb 2016, 21:18, edited 2 times in total.

Erich
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Erich » 15 Feb 2016, 23:34

i support this idea,but i dont think that will make a BIG change to PE at early game,because these stormpioniers are weak,yes they got stg44 but they are still engineers(at least i feel that).Anyway this will create new tactics and PE will not be forced to a ''Final push or death''.

mg42slo
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby mg42slo » 16 Feb 2016, 00:42

Compared to combat engineers they have only 3 grease guns as Thomsons are buyable, the same logic stormpios have 2 mp40 and 2 stg 44, they would be the strongest early game close combat unit by far making no sense to buy grease guns as US when playing against PE. Brits would be even worse of as these would come way before they get out tommies and i see them get surprised by an early volks squad with mp40 quit frequently if there is any reasonable cover and they have the lieutenant capping point instead of supporting the front. So i do agre that something need to be done with early PE agreeing with the proposal, i would delay the mp40 upgrade until inf support center is build.

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Warhawks97
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Feb 2016, 13:22

mg42slo wrote:Compared to combat engineers they have only 3 grease guns as Thomsons are buyable, the same logic stormpios have 2 mp40 and 2 stg 44, they would be the strongest early game close combat unit by far making no sense to buy grease guns as US when playing against PE. Brits would be even worse of as these would come way before they get out tommies and i see them get surprised by an early volks squad with mp40 quit frequently if there is any reasonable cover and they have the lieutenant capping point instead of supporting the front. So i do agre that something need to be done with early PE agreeing with the proposal, i would delay the mp40 upgrade until inf support center is build.



i had the same concerns and wrote it to sukin already. Starting PE squad that beats sappers at ranged combat and at the time lieutnant arrives at front stormpios showing also up with two stgs (which afterall is one of the best weapons).

VS US it might be more balanced, vs CW i dont think so. Besides that tommy squad has one of the longest build times. Grens, sturmpios and schwimm together would be devastating to any CW early.


I am not voting here as i simply dont know if its good or not. We would get good arguments for both. But i stay with my point of view: PE units main issue in early game are the build cost and production time. They arent "undeserved" considering what units have and can do, but also makes PE feeling very boring to play with like just 3 units till mid game.

I mean basically you can get up both buildings right at start that are required to get stormpios.

I will just observe what is going to happen here and await the results. I pointed my view about PE gameplay out very often already. What it needs is a very special gameplay, a special PE gameplay which is so different from WH as CW is from US. But besides very small changes like this it seems that nobody, neither players nor devs, is really willing to vote for or to do larger changes to completely refresh PE gameplay. Nobody apparently wants to "take the risk" to throw over the balance once again. But i wonder what could go wrong? Isnt PE anyway in its worst moment ever? What makes it different from WH besides being worse than those (except in terms of howitzer arty support)? It lacks creativity here i think.

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Butterkeks
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Butterkeks » 18 Feb 2016, 10:54

Erich wrote:i support this idea,but i dont think that will make a BIG change to PE at early game,because these stormpioniers are weak,yes they got stg44 but they are still engineers(at least i feel that).Anyway this will create new tactics and PE will not be forced to a ''Final push or death''.


It depends strongly on the player who controles them.

For me Stormpioneers are my favorite PE unit and if I build one I mostly manage to get it to vet 2-3 (without buying MP40 upgrade). Other players who use them wrong think they are "useless". THey are no close combat unit. They are a long range unit, capable of killing any close combat group which tries to rush them.
Jesus, I mostly kill even CQB squads with them.

So I can't decide.
On the one hand, they are (at least in my opinion) a very deadly squad. On the other hand you can loose them in a blink of an eye.
So somehow they could come earlier and somehow they should not.
But as most people seem to like the idea I wouldn't mind implementing it in the next patch. If PE is then to strong it can still be changed in the patch after that.

Stormpioneers as starting unit for PE would be way to OP imo. thy would slaughter brits and with Stormpioneers + pak you could also easily rush US.

Kasbah
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Kasbah » 18 Feb 2016, 11:54

You often loose the squad because of the flames are su bugged they burn themselves... Flames in general (infantry and vehicles) could maybe be fixed, they are very powerful but you need constant micro.

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crimax
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby crimax » 18 Feb 2016, 12:15

I could agree with this suggestion BUT
My only concern is how much advantage could get PE in early game.

PE does what other armies do, with vehicles. If we add PE the ability to combine early vehicles + assault infantry ....hmm, I don't know it honestly.

I don't exactly remember when assault pios can be called (logistic + infantry???) but a solution could be to make them ready when infantry company is built. This way a player can choose if go "the PE way" (by build logistic) or " the other armies way" (by build infantry) ....
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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 18 Feb 2016, 12:17

crimax wrote:I don't exactly remember when assault pios can be called (logistic + infantry???) but a solution could be to make them ready when infantry company is built. This way a player can choose if go "the PE way" (by build logistic) or " the other armies way" (by build infantry) ....


Thats exactly what is suggested in my post...

Probably some people missunderstood me because I dont know the names of PE buildings on english. You build up infantry company and can purchase stormpioniers there without any additional requirements, thats the idea.

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Butterkeks
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Butterkeks » 18 Feb 2016, 12:30

Kasbah wrote:You often loose the squad because of the flames are su bugged they burn themselves... Flames in general (infantry and vehicles) could maybe be fixed, they are very powerful but you need constant micro.


I was not talking about flamethrower ;)
Only the standard squad with 2 STG44 and 4 Kar98.

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
crimax wrote:I don't exactly remember when assault pios can be called (logistic + infantry???) but a solution could be to make them ready when infantry company is built. This way a player can choose if go "the PE way" (by build logistic) or " the other armies way" (by build infantry) ....


Thats exactly what is suggested in my post...

Probably some people missunderstood me because I dont know the names of PE buildings on english. You build up infantry company and can purchase stormpioniers there without any additional requirements, thats the idea.


Yes, now you have to build the inf building + inf support point to field stormpioneers.
SO you either go vehicles or inf.

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 18 Feb 2016, 12:39

Butterkeks wrote:Yes, now you have to build the inf building + inf support point to field stormpioneers.
SO you either go vehicles or inf.


Thats actually the worst tactic you can choose playing PE, building inf building + inf support = to let your opponent to take the best position, your PE grens will arrive at mid at the time when engeniers + jeep will be in a superior position, then, by the moment sturmpios will join the battle there will be 2 more rifles squads already, Its kinda like 2 units against 4 which moreover have a position advantage.

Thats the reason why nobody use this tactic, I have seen it a couple of times but it failed dramatically because in this case you just get outnumbered badly right from the start.

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Butterkeks
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Butterkeks » 18 Feb 2016, 13:12

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
Butterkeks wrote:Yes, now you have to build the inf building + inf support point to field stormpioneers.
SO you either go vehicles or inf.


Thats actually the worst tactic you can choose playing PE, building inf building + inf support = to let your opponent to take the best position, your PE grens will arrive at mid at the time when engeniers + jeep will be in a superior position, then, by the moment sturmpios will join the battle there will be 2 more rifles squads already, Its kinda like 2 units against 4 which moreover have a position advantage.

Thats the reason why nobody use this tactic, I have seen it a couple of times but it failed dramatically because in this case you just get outnumbered badly right from the start.


Well after you've built the first building you can field a Schwimmwagen or pak and the support point is build in something like 8(?) seconds. I've used it several times and it never failed because of the delay.
On high ress some people even build all three buildings and won't be killed in the first couple of minutes.

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 18 Feb 2016, 13:32

No, If you want to deploy pioniers as your first unit you won't have any res for buying something from HQ, of course you can purchase schwim before pioniers, but that will delay them for quite a long time, and you again will be with 2 units vs 4 in early stage.

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Butterkeks
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Butterkeks » 18 Feb 2016, 13:49

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:No, If you want to deploy pioniers as your first unit you won't have any res for buying something from HQ, of course you can purchase schwim before pioniers, but that will delay them for quite a long time, and you again will be with 2 units vs 4 in early stage.


I am not talking about deploying it as first unit but as third/4th.

But whatever, this isn't the topic here.
As I already said, I think your suggestions would be worth a shot.

Wake
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Wake » 18 Feb 2016, 19:43

Butterkeks wrote:It depends strongly on the player who controles them.

For me Stormpioneers are my favorite PE unit and if I build one I mostly manage to get it to vet 2-3 (without buying MP40 upgrade). Other players who use them wrong think they are "useless". THey are no close combat unit. They are a long range unit, capable of killing any close combat group which tries to rush them.
Jesus, I mostly kill even CQB squads with them.


Yeah, the 2 StGs that they get seem to confuse people a lot. Many new players like to build them because they get those StGs for free. However, just 2 of them is not enough vs American firepower, especially combined with their relatively low health. I once had an early game fight with combat engineers vs Sturmpioneers. The axis player tried to "assault" my combat engineers as if they were terror grens. The result was that the 6 grease guns easily beat the sturmpios once they got close. Then the enemy tried the same tactic again! And the combat engineers still won. Then he called the combat engineers "invincible".

So the key to this squad is how to use them. They will lose up close to combat engineers, rangers, and riflemen with 4 grease guns. I support this idea to make them available to build right away, especially because if PE builds the infantry building, then they can't build scout cars or any other vehicles for a while.

Also, I noticed that their flamethrower costs 65 munition, even though it is the same flamethrower that pioneers get, and pioneers only have to pay 45 munition.
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Butterkeks
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Butterkeks » 19 Feb 2016, 09:33

Wake wrote:Yeah, the 2 StGs that they get seem to confuse people a lot. Many new players like to build them because they get those StGs for free. However, just 2 of them is not enough vs American firepower, especially combined with their relatively low health. I once had an early game fight with combat engineers vs Sturmpioneers. The axis player tried to "assault" my combat engineers as if they were terror grens. The result was that the 6 grease guns easily beat the sturmpios once they got close. Then the enemy tried the same tactic again! And the combat engineers still won. Then he called the combat engineers "invincible".

So the key to this squad is how to use them. They will lose up close to combat engineers, rangers, and riflemen with 4 grease guns. I support this idea to make them available to build right away, especially because if PE builds the infantry building, then they can't build scout cars or any other vehicles for a while.


Sums it up perfectly. Keep enemy on distance and let enemy close combat units come to you.

Wake wrote:Also, I noticed that their flamethrower costs 65 munition, even though it is the same flamethrower that pioneers get, and pioneers only have to pay 45 munition.


Maybe because it would be a squad with two Stg44 + Flamethrower then? Pioneers only have K98, maybe that's the reason. Does anyone know how much Terror Grens pay for their Flamethrower? Maybe it's also more expensive because of that.

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 19 Feb 2016, 09:51

Terror Grens have lost their flamethrower long time ago.

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Butterkeks
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby Butterkeks » 19 Feb 2016, 11:02

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Terror Grens have lost their flamethrower long time ago.


Ha lol, totally forgot about that XD
I've played Terror doc several times the last weeks, yet I somehow managed to forget about the flamethrower^^

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MarKr
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Re: PE stormpioniers

Postby MarKr » 19 Feb 2016, 12:47

Wolf says we can try this. So expect Sturm pios earlier :).

Anyway, as you guys talk about flamethrower - if you want to buy it, it has requirement to "be in own territory" OR "Ammunition HT nearby". Fine with me. But the MP40 upgrade has no requirement so you can buy it pretty much anywhere. I guess there should be at least "own territory" requirement.
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