Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

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Merkkari
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Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby Merkkari » 22 Dec 2014, 09:42

I wonder does anybody use Stuka when you have better Fw190 bomber?

Stuka misses its targets more often, thuss does less damage, and is less usefull. I wonder if it shares same attack bombing and damage ability as US airborne doctrine P-47 2x200kg bomb, this is also sometimes very inaccurate.

One suggestion is to replace its payload with something better, like 1x500kg (+4x50kg/2x250kg bombs load historical accuracy) to make it more effective. Or just repair the hitting mechanism, I thought stuka as accurate divebomber but current model wont hit anything.

Also other suggestions are welcome.

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V13dweller
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby V13dweller » 22 Dec 2014, 10:48

It has been broken for as long as I can remember, it's bomb doesn't' have have enough AOE, and it not accurate enough, I am not sure if it will be fixed anytime though, as it has been suggested many times, but no action.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Dec 2014, 15:12

Merkkari wrote:I wonder does anybody use Stuka when you have better Fw190 bomber?

Stuka misses its targets more often, thuss does less damage, and is less usefull. I wonder if it shares same attack bombing and damage ability as US airborne doctrine P-47 2x200kg bomb, this is also sometimes very inaccurate.

One suggestion is to replace its payload with something better, like 1x500kg (+4x50kg/2x250kg bombs load historical accuracy) to make it more effective. Or just repair the hitting mechanism, I thought stuka as accurate divebomber but current model wont hit anything.

Also other suggestions are welcome.




Historically this bomb loadout is possible but about the accuracy i dont have much trouble as long as the territory is flat so far. For 125 ammo i cant complain that much and it depends on map and enemie what i use. Against brits i use the fw-190 as i drop more sd2 when playing vs brits and its good enough against the emplacments.

And historically the Stuka G version could not drop the bombs as accurate as earlier models during the vertical dive. Due to growing flaks etc the later stuka modles had no special bomb mount that allowed bomb drop in vertical dive and bombs got dropped more often in slight dive like normal fighter bomber did. It furthermore became mainly a Tankbuster with 2x37 mm canons. The FW-190 F versions replaced most stuka bomber squadrons in 43 untill end of war but never entirely a most FW-190 were used against USAAF Bombers. So the accuracy for Stuka G model isnt that inaccurate from a historical point of view.


And The P-47 with two 125 kg bombs is not more accurate and AoE is also a bit too low maybe. Has the same bugs as stukas (bomb deals no damage) and is a waste of 250 ammo. Historically it could be easily 3 bombs.

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MarKr
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby MarKr » 23 Dec 2014, 11:22

I've spent many hours on trying to make Stuka more accurate and deadly but without any success. Wolf tried it too without any success. Best I was able to get was this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H9__933ct0

But it still has some bugs
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Warhawks97
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Dec 2014, 14:20

MarKr wrote:I've spent many hours on trying to make Stuka more accurate and deadly but without any success. Wolf tried it too without any success. Best I was able to get was this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H9__933ct0

But it still has some bugs




looks good. I mean its not a laser guided bomb and as i said the G version dropped not during vertical dive. I will see how it will work in game. Thx for time spending into it.

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MarKr
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby MarKr » 23 Dec 2014, 15:03

Ehm...this is an old link which I posted on the old forum several months ago. It's never been implemented and still had some flaws - e.g. you couldn't set which direction the plane was coming from (it worked similarly to henschel ability but only sent one plane), it did not adjust aim so if the target moved away, the bomb hit empty space (but that is common to all airstrikes)...
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mg42slo
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby mg42slo » 23 Dec 2014, 15:28

If its just 1 bomb the direction is not that important, certainly not more then improved accuracy.

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MarKr
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby MarKr » 23 Dec 2014, 16:51

Maybe...but sometimes when there are buildings around the target the plane comes stupidly from the direction of the building and then the bomb hits the building...
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Wake
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby Wake » 23 Dec 2014, 19:15

Well, definitely don't remove it, because the main reason people use it over the FW190 is because it's much much cheaper at 125 munition. The FW costs 250 munition, which is a LOT! On most maps, that much munition is hard to get. I'd rather have a crappy Stuka that I can actually use instead of a better FW that I can't use because it's too expensive.

Making it better would be good though, as planes are always a gamble, because they don't do much damage vs buildings, and if you do drop bombs on a building, it might not even be hit, and if you try to drop bombs on a unit, it could move out of the strike path.
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Warhawks97
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Dec 2014, 19:50

Wake wrote:Well, definitely don't remove it, because the main reason people use it over the FW190 is because it's much much cheaper at 125 munition. The FW costs 250 munition, which is a LOT! On most maps, that much munition is hard to get. I'd rather have a crappy Stuka that I can actually use instead of a better FW that I can't use because it's too expensive.

Making it better would be good though, as planes are always a gamble, because they don't do much damage vs buildings, and if you do drop bombs on a building, it might not even be hit, and if you try to drop bombs on a unit, it could move out of the strike path.



thats true. 250 ammo is a lot and i am searching often for a target worth 250 ammp (which is mostly a combination of emplacments with units arround). With stuka i just have to spot a 17 pounder emplacment and its worh for me using 125 ammo. Other options would be 1-2 arty slavos, 2 nebler salvos or even more or using 1-2 grenade bundles would cost the same, so i think 125 ammo for a destroyed emplacment is a good deal. At least better than P-47 which is more or less the same just cost twice as much,

Merkkari
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby Merkkari » 25 Dec 2014, 00:29

Didn'nt notice that stuka is cheaper :oops: Also in MarKr video stuka dives and looks reasonably good against vehicles. I wonder how good blast damage effect is against infantry in MarKr version.

I dont mind if I cant set bomb dropping direction since its a single bomb, opposite to Fw190 cluster. Looks same as Grille's single shot ability, but Grille does not do damage to tanks.

Is it possible to make look like it drops 500kg bomb, taking same effect as Jagdtiger 128mm HE shot?

Kasbah
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby Kasbah » 25 Dec 2014, 10:12

I agree with Wake and Warhawks, 250 is a lot of money and it's hard to find a target that's worth spending this ammount (if you have it) I will rather use Stuka and Nebels and spend some more ammo in upgrades. Maybe Stuka could get a small price increase, like 150 ammo, and be, if possible, a little more effective.
Another good option would be to make both stuka and fw available. Luft is the only doc in the whole axis factions with planes and now the choice is pretty poor: Stuka or Fw and strafing run, which also costs a lot.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby Warhawks97 » 25 Dec 2014, 15:39

@Merkkari: Grille no damage against Tanks?:D Sure?:p


500KG bomb delivers arround 260 KG of HE which is more than a 150 mm arty shell has. The Long Tom for example with 155 mm delivered arround 43,5 KG of HE iirc (can check the book again). A small 50 kg bomb had already 26 KG HE which is about twice that a 105 arty shell had at that time.



If you want two airstrikes in Luft doc it would be most realistic to have two Fw-190. One with a 500 KG bomb and the other with 8x50 KG. IN BK fw-190 dropps 8x70 kg which is not correct btw. But so far Luftwaffe already provides more Air support as axis ever had in 44 at western front^^. The Luftwaffe as as compensation for less air support (which is already decent) good AT 88 guns and even Panthers.

A Strafe run would be (depending on A or F version) 2x7,92 (A-5) or 2x 13 mm (A-8) +4x20 mm canons (A) or 2x20 mm (F). A versions were mostly fighters and upgraded with some 30 mm canons and A-8 was german main Heavy Bomber destroyer. The F mostly the fighter bomber. So a strafe run would have 2x7,92 mm or 13 mm and 2x20 mm canons + maybe canon upgrades. This strafe would be freaking powerfull.

Another option could be to have one Fw-190 8x50 kg bomb run, one 500 KG Fw-190 or Ju-87 bomb run (i would prefer Fw-190) and a single Ju-87 37 mm canon anti tank strafe instead henschel swarm). But idk, i dont feel that i need such a huge air support when playing luft. And actually the SD-2 are also a kind of bomb strike which airplane cant be shot down (because its dropped by god).

I am actually more annoyed by the US p-47 which dropps just two 125 kg bombs (with bugs sometimes, low aoe etc) for 250 ammo.

Merkkari
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby Merkkari » 28 Dec 2014, 11:30

To summarize the things.
-Left doc to have two option, fw190 8x50kg (=400kg bombload) And single Stuka/Fw190? 500kg bomb attacks
-BK fw-190 dropp 8x70 kg should be renamed 8x50kg bombs.
-BK Stuka attack animation and hittting mechanism replaced with MarKr made new one?
-US p-47 bomb atttack, lower the cost to 250->200 ammo?

The others SD-2 bombdrop and Hencshel 123 attack swarm are fine becouse they work, no problem there and no need to increasy existing workload.
To correspond 500kg bomb attack it should have bigger blast radius to correspond bomb contained HE load. Blast wawe kills unprotected infantry IRL. Does blast damage tanks/buildings?

Need to test Grille to (un)confirm to what I said earlier.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Reward unit: Useless Stuka, why?

Postby Warhawks97 » 28 Dec 2014, 14:13

Merkkari wrote:To summarize the things.
-Left doc to have two option, fw190 8x50kg (=400kg bombload) And single Stuka/Fw190? 500kg bomb attacks
-BK fw-190 dropp 8x70 kg should be renamed 8x50kg bombs.
-BK Stuka attack animation and hittting mechanism replaced with MarKr made new one?
-US p-47 bomb atttack, lower the cost to 250->200 ammo?

The others SD-2 bombdrop and Hencshel 123 attack swarm are fine becouse they work, no problem there and no need to increasy existing workload.
To correspond 500kg bomb attack it should have bigger blast radius to correspond bomb contained HE load. Blast wawe kills unprotected infantry IRL. Does blast damage tanks/buildings?

Need to test Grille to (un)confirm to what I said earlier.





Sounds good. Btw Ju-87 would have also option to carry 1x 500kg + 4x50 kg:P or a single 1000 kg bomb (dont know if G version as well)

The P-47 could get cheaper but also possible would be 3x 125 kg or 1x250kg + 2x 125 kg. Booth were possible.

Blast damage could be increased a bit against inf but as i said tanks were more ressistant against the blast and need to be it more directly. Very close hits could deal secondary damage though.


About SD-2: i´ve been watching a game from Impulse in steam Beta when he had a game in coh 2. He played a mod of it (forgot the name) and his opponent used SD2 as well just that they did explode directly when touching the ground. It looked really cool and very dangerous against numbers of inf and vehicles.


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