Nashorn replacement

[Wake]

I would like to point out that many people don't know that TH doc has the Panzer IV J and H. These are really good tanks, and what makes them good in TH doc is that they can get the "Zimmerit" upgrade and the "veteran tank crews" from the command tree. This makes their armor really good. Bazookas no longer become as big of a threat, and even the US 76mm AT gun struggles to penetrate it. Whenever I play TH, that's usually what I go for, spamming Panzer IV Js. It's got an MG42 on top, which makes it very deadly to enemy infantry.

[kwok]

I actually really like the Nashorn... I use it quite a lot as a tank commander XP feeder. It's really cheap and pays itself off really quick. It's definitely really defensive and can't be used to end a game, but it sure does help carry me through early church hills and jumbos until I can get those end game jadpanthers...

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Maybe it Sound completly stupid but giving the th doc a Elefant and a jagdtiger? as replacement for the Nashorn? I mean Looks jt cost 2000 and Elefant 1500 you can not have both in same time but it atleast gives a "tankhunter" doctrine the kick and the real Feeling. Do not Forget all Anti tank "Verbände" so i will call it section. always had The big tanks. and one of the greatest tank hunters? why not just giving them some real Feeling having alot heavy tanks at your back? and cmon, adding Elefant to th too do will not make it op as said you can not have both in same time AND ALSO Elefant is not that strong:) but it just a idea for fun

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Elefant is crap in my opinion, just as Jagdtiger. Slow, expensive, without anti infantry capabilities. Most of the time this units become a silly victims of stickies\gammon\arty.

[JimQwilleran]

Elephant is crap, Jagdtiger bounces shots in the rear from Pershing...

[kwok]

Can I summon Warhawks on some numbers?
How much is the nashorn cost again? The damn thing hits like an 88 with AP without AP activation. I really like it and would prefer if it didn't get removed. If you don't use it, fine, but what else do you want th to have? Can't we just keep the nashorn and give whatever you guys want (pref not Panther)?

[Warhawks97]

in SE doc 580/80. In TH 560/75 and arround 520 and 60 after massprod upgrade.

It has the most powerfull anti tank gun atm in game and a range of 80 or 85 from ambush position. It fires two shots. The camo gives a boost (iirc x2 pen and x1.5 damage). It also fires quickly (from ambush).

Yes, its purely defensive weapon but it does defend.

The question is what can a nashorn what the IV/70 cant? The nashorn kills even SP and crocc church very well unlike the IV/70 but the IV/70 can keep fighting even when when being revealed and engaged by enemie armor.


What we actually talk about is how much tank hunter is the TH doc? Or is it just a "anti tank doc"? But defending against enemie armor can be done by other docs like def, SE and luft even.

Its not a bad unit, but everything TH has is defensively, Even the Jagdpanther is played defensively in like 99% of all cases as it is much better as ambushed defensive.


But what i consider as funny:

Players complain about PE early game atm.
Players complain about Th doc being not offensive enough.
Players complain about Luft doc being not able to fight as combined arms and thus being weak in games.

Still everybody is looking for doctrinal changes. The PE early shall be tweaked for entire PE, TH doc shall get Panther G and Luft... better 88 or so.

I think a simple refresh or PE infantry combat system with some unit cost adjustments could solve all these problems quite fast. The only unit need to be changed could be the Jagdpanther to boost PE offensive. One ambuhs shot instead of two, therefore 70 range instead of 65 at default like the KT.


But i will just keep observing all these "single debates" about "how to improve PE" instead trying to fix them all at once. Its like a huma who has a broken leg and who needs an surgery on one leg but at the end he has an arm where a leg should be, a leg where an arm should be and a head that is placed "head first" on his neck. And then everybody says: "damn, he needs an urgen surgery". Finally, after 5 of them, nobody knows anymore what part of his body has to be where.


I mean: Buff 88´s again and we end up in "single unit spam" (88´s) again instead of Luftwaffe inf that is supported by those. Give reg 5 massive boosts on survivability and we revive kch style what i am really afraid off atm.

Give Panther G to TH doc and nobody will build anything else than Panther G´s in this doc. Kind of terror doc: 16 unlocks but just 3 are used (Panther G, Zimmerit, Vet 1 crew) while everything else is "just there to look nice".

I mean i dont consider it as a bad move as i actually supported it, but i dont think its the best move.

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

You guys dont get it? i said Elefant so it still would be balanced ofc it suck xD but it was a joke anyways

[Warhawks97]

You guys dont get it? i said Elefant so it still would be balanced ofc it suck xD but it was a joke anyways

i wasnt refering to you mainly.

Besides that how would it improve the doc? The Jagdtiger is a crap unit actually, the elephant at least is good in the open vs tanks. In its stat mode it can stop many enemie tanks due to a high rate of fire. Vs inf and arty it sucks, true. But i elephant is still better than jagdtiger which due to its rof kill a tank before being encircled by the second already.

[kwok]

Nashorn comes earlier and is a lot cheaper than the JP. So true, while JP can do everything a Nashorn can but better, in terms of cost and availability Nashorn is still pretty helpful imo. I mean, like I said I treat it like an XP generator against tank docs.

Not use TH offensively? Man... I don't know about that... I've had JP's walk through 17pdrs like it's nothing. Worst case I use two hodgekiss to take out the 17pdrs, keep tanking with JP, and clean up inf with SS. I don't think I have any replays of such but you can ask some players like Jnorbz, Shadow, and playbetter, I've definitely gotten some tough and slow offenses with TH, very similar to RE but more durable and precise rather than a blanket creep. Like a slow steel knife rather than a crushing concrete block.

In terms of PE overall, I think it's just the expectation that PE should be well rounded like WH is. But it's not. It has sort of forced game play the way a lot of Allies docs are (or were supposed to be...). In general, I've noticed that in recent patches Allied docs are becoming more and more well rounded which starts putting them on a similar level as Axis. Meanwhile, Axis aren't really being touched at all. I'm really not sure if changing anything PE is worth it because I still think there's a lot of ways of playing the doc that most people haven't tried.

[Warhawks97]

Nashorn comes earlier and is a lot cheaper than the JP. So true, while JP can do everything a Nashorn can but better, in terms of cost and availability Nashorn is still pretty helpful imo. I mean, like I said I treat it like an XP generator against tank docs.

I talked about Jagdpanzer IV/70, not jagdpanther in comparision to nashorn.

Not use TH offensively? Man... I don't know about that... I've had JP's walk through 17pdrs like it's nothing. Worst case I use two hodgekiss to take out the 17pdrs, keep tanking with JP, and clean up inf with SS.

I do the same, just with Jagdpanzer IV/70 (two of them) and Pgren+heavy assault gren squad.

But:

Like a slow steel knife rather than a crushing concrete block.

Which is "RE style" or CW. And i dont want PE to be the "axis RE". But that bugs m most on PE. Its a harassment, arty, slow advancing faction. Completely the opposite of what was originally supposed to be.

In terms of PE overall, I think it's just the expectation that PE should be well rounded like WH is. But it's not. It has sort of forced game play the way a lot of Allies docs are (or were supposed to be...). In general, I've noticed that in recent patches Allied docs are becoming more and more well rounded which starts putting them on a similar level as Axis. Meanwhile, Axis aren't really being touched at all. I'm really not sure if changing anything PE is worth it because I still think there's a lot of ways of playing the doc that most people haven't tried.

RAF, yes. But which other became more "well rounded"? Inf for example more or less lost the 105 sherman support which "forced" or moved players to use massively emplacments as offensive tool.

Not sure if i missed something here.

And you talk about Axis as WH? And you wanna say that PE should stay as it is coz WH is versatile or that WH is too versatile and should more be like PE?

[kwok]

Jp70 doesn't have the pen off nashorn though does it? I like using it too, don't get me wrong. But tbh I don't rely on it against jumbos which come out at around the same time. Also nashorn range is just unparalleled.

Well I guess if you don't want pe to be like cw then that's a fundamental problem haha. That's a discussion for wolf on what his intentions on how he wants the factions to be played.

I'm not giving any opinion on whether I think factions should be specialized or well rounded, I'm only giving an opinion on the current state and direction. I have extremely strong opinions on how the factions "should" be but I don't think I'm ready talking about it yet when people still don't want to play big maps. I'd really like to have more involvement in making a new map pack, but I don't have the knowledge or the time to learn the knowledge. Hoping to find someone to work with me or bknc to do this. Maybe get dev support.

[Warhawks97]

Jp70 doesn't have the pen off nashorn though does it? I like using it too, don't get me wrong. But tbh I don't rely on it against jumbos which come out at around the same time. Also nashorn range is just unparalleled.

The Jagdpanzer IV/70 pens basically everything reliable except SP and crocc churchill.

With Tank commander and ambush boost it should also pen e8 quite easily.

So the Nashorn is good to counter certain units reliable right with a first shot like Pershings, crocc church and stuff. But in general the IV/70 is better to counter many enemie tanks at once as it has two ambushed shots, good armor and low received accuracy. The Nashorn also has no gunsights which IV/70 later gets at default in that doc.

Well I guess if you don't want pe to be like cw then that's a fundamental problem haha. That's a discussion for wolf on what his intentions on how he wants the factions to be played.

And thats why people want PE to be changed. Luft should become better as assault doc (cost changes, reg 5 def boni etc, Panther G for TH doc). The entire discussion why Nashorn shall be replaced with Panther G is exactly about the aggressive offensive gameplay capabilties of PE^^.

But as i said, in order to turn PE gameplay from "slow steel knife" into a "crushing concrete block" its not even necessary to change docs or to add/remove units from docs.

What i am afraid of is that even after Panther G is being added people will play in defensive modus (for which they will use Panther G i guess) untill they get res to throw many of them at the enemie.

I'm not giving any opinion on whether I think factions should be specialized or well rounded, I'm only giving an opinion on the current state and direction. I have extremely strong opinions on how the factions "should" be but I don't think I'm ready talking about it yet when people still don't want to play big maps. I'd really like to have more involvement in making a new map pack, but I don't have the knowledge or the time to learn the knowledge. Hoping to find someone to work with me or bknc to do this. Maybe get dev support.

New map pack would be really great indeed:)

[Krieger Blitzer]

I'd really like to have more involvement in making a new map pack, but I don't have the knowledge or the time to learn the knowledge. Hoping to find someone to work with me or bknc to do this. Maybe get dev support.

I think that Eldrak1911 has been recently quite busy so far.. but we are still working on it.

His task is to check every single map through the 634mappack! Then to give me his report as an excel sheet regarding his recommendations for each map according to a certain criteria with a small description attached... Just like this one he already gave me considering only the 1st pack of the whole mappack:-
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_pYjs ... ef=2&pli=1

I really liked his report.. an excellent one indeed! Now he should be doing the same with the 2nd pack... But I believe that this is getting quite much at him as it requires a lot of time while he is in fact busy.
Would anyone like to help him extracting the best maps from the remaining packs?? Would be grateful then; if anyone is up to help.. he can send me a PM for sure!

Once all the maps have been extracted.. I will then contact JFF1 again to tell me the exact steps of how to fix the 'temp.rec' glitch! After that I can send them to Wolf so that we get a new decent amount of maps with the next patch release.

For further details, plz send me a PM...

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

There is a decent ukvaultsman mappack, which moreover doesnt even have temp.rec bug.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I know that.. but there are only 7 maps there... We need more!

[kwok]

Hm, but I feel the iv70 has less power, meaning it will take those 2 full shots to kill even a sherman sometimes. At least with the nashorn, I can rip open the tin cans even if theyre over repaired. Maybe just my isolated experiences.

I agree with the panther statement though, I feel like people would start to just drive towards panthers instead of looking at other options.

[Warhawks97]

well. The jagdpanzer IV/70 has double damage from ambush and 50% pen boost. The nashorn doesnt. The nashorn has just the normal reload speed boni (basic reload is 6-10 sec vs Jagdpanther with 4.5 - 5.5 and IV/70 with 7 sec).

So nashorn damage keeps 135-165 from ambush. Jagdpanzer IV/70 has 120-180 (normal damage is 80-120 which is actually Tank IV H/J damage although using panther gun which damage is actually 100-130).

And the IV/70 has two of these shots.

So as i said, the IV/70 seems to be better in any aspecpt as long as both shoot from ambush which i assume is the only thing we can compare as the nashorn will never really going for offense which the IV/70 can also better.


I dont want to "talk the nashorn bad" (its actually an impressive long range oneshot killer even against the heaviest opponents) just in TH doc i dont know why i should get it. The IV/70 does the job well enough, if not better. So why do i waste the CP there instead going directly for Jagdpanther?

[kwok]

120-180?? Really? I can't believe it haha. Maybe I just have terrible luck, which happens when it comes to large tanks for me. Then what does the jpanther hit? If anything I thought the jpanther would hit 120-180, not jpanzer.

[Warhawks97]

120-180?? Really? I can't believe it haha. Maybe I just have terrible luck, which happens when it comes to large tanks for me. Then what does the jpanther hit? If anything I thought the jpanther would hit 120-180, not jpanzer.

you have to multiplie all these values with 5 vs tanks and vehicles. Jagdpanther has also 135-165 basic damage and ambush boost like IV/70. So it does 202,5-247,5 damage from ambush (multiplied with 5 means max 1237,5 damage max actually). a SP has 1300 HP.

So idk, maybe you could make a test with mates. So far you should kill all tanks but SP in a single shot with Jagdpanther from ambush as no allied tank really has that much HP.

[kwok]

so panzer and panther have same base damage/multiplied damage? Bleh not in my experience.

[kwok]

OHHHhhh. I misread. Still. I can't believe Jpanzer hits harder than Nashorn. I never felt that in my experience.

[Warhawks97]

OHHHhhh. I misread. Still. I can't believe Jpanzer hits harder than Nashorn. I never felt that in my experience.

and again.

There is a basic damage.For Nashorn 135-165 (x5), IV/70 has 80-120 (x5). But IV/70 has also ambush bonus damage from ambush (x1.5) which nashorn has not. So overall the Nashorn hits better, but from ambush the max possibe damage fo IV/70 seems to be higher, but the lowest possible also lower as those of nashorn Got it?:D At least that this is how it seems. And so far, when i use the IV/70 from ambush, i do oneshot shermans quite well and two shot pershings. The pen is truly better for Nashorn and also the range.

I cant say how it behaves with crits exactly though.

[XAHTEP39]

deleted.