British Infantry Section - Bad Unit?

[Wake]

It was brought up in this thread (click) by Warhawks and Tiger that the British Infantry Section (aka "Tommies") may not be good enough.

I agree. Warhawks posted this table of weapon stats. I included a picture of the bullets too.

Lee-Enfield: 19-29 Damage (Long-Range Accuracy .55)
Kar 98: 23-33 Damage (Long-Range Accuracy .65)
M1 Garand: 20-30 Damage (Long-Range Accuracy .45)



So the Enfield is the worst rifle, but it is the weapon of the infantry section, which should the best "basic" rifle unit in the game. It should be better than US riflemen, PE Panzergrenadiers, and Wehrmacht volks, simply because of the huge price difference. Infantry Section costs 435 MP, which should make it about as good as grenadiers (which are cheaper at 400 MP). But they really aren't. Grenadiers would probably win a fight vs an infantry section, and would definitely win if they had an MG42 or StG44.

What I'm saying is that the infantry section is pretty bad unless you give them the 55 muni Bren, and even then they aren't that good. They have a similar problem to the grenadiers a few patches ago, back when grenadiers cost 450 MP and had no StG upgrade. They were too expensive for their performance. Then grenadiers got a price reduction and better guns, now they are very good. Something similar should be done to the Infantry Section.

The Infantry Section is too expensive at 435 MP. It is not cost-effective at all. To compare, grenadiers cost 400 MP and are better, and commandos cost 450 MP and are better. Even Rangers are at least similar in performance but cost only 360 MP. I think giving them more health would fit in with the idea carried over from vanilla CoH that British units have a lot of health but are also very expensive. Other options include increasing the Enfield damage and accuracy, or slightly reducing their price.

Do you disagree?

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I actually think it is one of the best inf in game, with 2 Brens they outperform reg. 5 with no problems, not to mention how easy they smash folks or panzergrenadiers.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Surely I disagree any buffing to the CW inf section squads specifically since that the PE basic inf units are also very expensive being not that good on the other hand... 2 Brens just for 110 ammo are always very effective compared to their cost.. not to mention that they have sniper shots, rifle grenade and are available as soon as Volks! Above all; u collect more of them by the medic station, WH can collect only Volks and not Grens.

And btw... The British Leutenants are very unique from all other officers, they don't just provide bonuses to the nearby inf.. as they also give speed boost; perma sprinting by default I mean!! Using the sprint ability when there is a leutenant behind them would give such a super natural running speed.

Keep in mind that after removing KCH, WH has a single one elite kind of special troops now; ONLY Storms.
For example the Inf doc ALONE has got 3 different special squads.. Combat Engineers, CBQs and infilteration Rangers!

[MarKr]

The British Leutenants are very unique from all other officers

Lieutenants were the first thing that crossed my mind too... they provide bonuses to accuracy, rate of fire and other stuff, you can have more of them and their bonuses stack on the infatry around them so if the enfield got a buff there would be pontential way to make Tommies super effective.

Some people would probably say that nobody builds 3 Lieutenants and even if so, you never keep them so close together to affect one squad but that doesn't change the fact it is possible.

[Warhawks97]

The Grens with lmg to beat actually everything at range. In recent occassion a vet 3 Inf section with bren and yellow cover lost vs badly vs vet 0 gren squad with lmg42.

Considering rifle sections survivability (70 HP. Volks and rifle have 65 but gotta check. Pgrens 75 but different armor type iirc) which isnt better than Volks.

Volks, Rifle squad and inf section are exclusively usefull when deployed in cover (and lmg upgrade along with rifles). But Volks and rifles cost 240-265, Brits inf section 435. If you play volks with rifles and LMG (and officer) then they have so far the best damageoutput out of these three units.

The offensive is bad for all three of them and they should fire from cover and keep some distance.

The 400 MP Gren is so far the best. by far most HP, many good abilties and being buffed in two docs (stg and flame nades in terror, def buff in def doc).

So among Heavy assault grens, Inf rifle section and Pgrens the WH Grens would have to be the most expensive as they beat them all in every discipline.



@Wake: There is no "M1 accuracy" or "K98 accuracy". For axis we have basically pio K98 stats, Volksgren/PE Pgren stats and Gren/Stormtrooper stats.

For CW we have actually sapper Enfield stats, Tommy (Boys AT ?), Commando.

For US we have Engineer M1 accuracy, Rifle squad and Ranger.

Edited this former suggestion thread:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=619&p=5070#p5070


I think you did refer to the most common units. That means that M1 would have arround 0.23 accuracy at max (Ranger), 0.35 for Tommy Enfield, 0.35 for Volks and PEgrens, 0.45 for WH grens. And do you mean with "long range" the considered long range and thus distant values in corsix? Or do you mean corsix long range which in game is middle distance?


Also another indicator of how overpriced the inf section is the fact that Nobody rebuilds them. Players build one or two squads in early stage but thats it. Later on brits will only keep producing AA tanks, Fireflies and stuff. It wouldnt make sense to pay 435 MP for a unit that has a survivability of Volks and which has no weapon against tanks or stuff. The only reason you see new squads in late stage is because of the triage center. But i cant remember that anyone has ever build a new squad in late game. They reproduce AA tanks, M10, Fireflies, sappers, Recce and emplacments. RE gets only more tanks and sappers maybe, RA more arty and AA tanks and emplacments and RAF commandos.

But considering that brits pay 435 MP for a infantry squad that has stats of Volksgrens/Pgrens and HP just slightly higher as Volks and rifles and with limited versatility while others get, for cheaper cost, much stronger inf with much higher versatility then i would say its not really fair.


If WH grens would get normal PE gren/Heavy assault squad K98 stats then i think 385 MP for Brits inf section would be justified.


Suggestion for Grens and CW inf:

WH Grens:
Accuracy: from 0.85/0.65/0.45/0.45 to 0.7/0.55/0.4/0.35
HP from 80 per men to 75 (80 is what elites do have. Gren are the only basic inf that has 80 per men together with WH and US AT squads)
Thus cost from 400 to 385. Reinforce cost from 35 to 34.

CW inf section:
From 435 MP to 370 MP. Reinforce cost from 28 to 32 MP.

CW Sappers from 315 to 265 MP.

[Yafa]

The British Leutenants are very unique from all other officers

Lieutenants were the first thing that crossed my mind too... they provide bonuses to accuracy, rate of fire and other stuff

add to this .... not a single axis infantry squad can have the ability heroic charge by default ! allies have got it for cbqs ,infiltration rangers , 82nd airborne, sas and hq airborne all by default ... not to mention all commandos have smoke ability and it works probably the same way.

at least add it by default only to reg 5 and also to the ss squad which ridiculously cost 950 manpower by the way

[Devilfish]

and also to the ss squad which ridiculously cost 950 manpower by the way

You mean this squad, which cost ridiculous 550 mp, and every squad member gets for free super weak g43 and one dude even weaker stg44? Oh wait, i forgot one man even possess useless sniper rifle, meh. And those pathetic upgrades for double mg42 are just hilarious. It is available in every doc without CP, but who would use such a unworthy, weak unit. They need buff ASAP, or this mod is dead, i tell you.

[Warhawks97]

The British Leutenants are very unique from all other officers

Lieutenants were the first thing that crossed my mind too... they provide bonuses to accuracy, rate of fire and other stuff

add to this .... not a single axis infantry squad can have the ability heroic charge by default ! allies have got it for cbqs ,infiltration rangers , 82nd airborne, sas and hq airborne all by default ... not to mention all commandos have smoke ability and it works probably the same way.

at least add it by default only to reg 5 and also to the ss squad which ridiculously cost 950 manpower by the way

Axis have lots of stuff to avoid suppression. If you have some cover even volks wont get suppressed by allied HMG´s (ever tested). Use sprint with grens and you get easily into grenade range to kill the HMG.

Stormtrooper leader squad has heroic charge as well.

Basically, if you put axis inf with any leader support then you dont get suppressed anyway in normal combat situations and unless enemie uses special ability to pin you down.

Reg 5, storms and grens (in BK doc) have assault ability. That ability removes suppression as well and makes the squad throwing nades untill the target is dead.


There is only expensive cqc, infiltration rangers and 82nd tactical and 101st HQ that can remove suppression by default. But those are extremely close ranged focused units.

[Wake]

Honestly, it's true that axis infantry don't need suppression-breaking abilities because even while suppressed they can crawl up and throw a grenade because they have a ridiculously long grenade throw range.

[Lionelus]

Hello everybody !

first post on the new forum. Haven't been around for a long time. Glad to see things have evolved a lot

Concerning Brit infantry, I would say price is okay, considering you can have immediatly a very good squad, that outperforms all T1 infantry. Not to mention mandatory Lieutenant which boosts offensive capacity.

As Warhawk said, Brit infantry is rarely rebuilt mid/late game.
I wouldn't say price or effectiveness is the problem. Brit infantry is good enough: 70 HP, 0.45 accuracy at long range (same as WH grenadiers)

In my opinion, problem would be versatility. As the game goes on, investing 435 MP in a squad that can only deal with infantry is dangerous.

That's why WH and US players are so keen on Rangers and Grenadiers, even late game: whatever happens, these are good investment, as you get tactical flexibility. You can't go wrong : You can fight off infantry at long range (cal.30/mg34), short range (thompson / Stg44) and tanks (zooks and schreks)

Simply put : Brit infantry got grenadiers stat yet US riflemen purpose. Thus, investing in such squad mid/late game is very dangerous. People would rather use MP for tanks and emplacements.

To be honest, I'm fine with Brit infantry. You absolutly need them to protect tanks, scout ahead, fix enemy on the field for bombardment, kill snipers...

Nevertheless, Brit infantry is not attractive enough. That's why it is rarely seen in game, while it should be the backbone of any brit army (except RAF).

I would suggest the following :
- reduce cost to 380 MP
- remove default sniper shot ability
- add a third upgrape, allowing sniper shot and increasing line of sight. That would cost 40 munitions or so.

What do you people think ?

[Warhawks97]

Awesome. You are back and even using your old avatar:) I cant await to see more such posts:) The ammount of such posts in this forum is very low currently. Jeez i cant say how glad i am that someone came back to forum who can bring such constructive posts. It maybe brings back some other memebers who despaired of the low quality of some topics and discussions which often ended up in personal insults and derails.

Yes they are the best T1 inf you can get especially if you keep the lieutenant nearby and which justifies being more costly. But as you said this guy is mandatory to keep that squad competitive in late game. So once both are dead the player needs to invest 585 and 15 fuel to get this back and he gets nothing but anti inf power. But its damageoutput isnt really higher (even lower) as a volks squad with lmg34 and officer nearby which also can provide limited but therefore heavy AT power. Volks have just 5 HP less.

A Gren squad with lmg and officer nearby easily outperforms that squad in damage and HP by a lot

You mentioned the 45 accuracy for the Enfield:) Here are stats of rifles: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=619

Note pls how ranges are classified: 0-15 close range, 15-25 mid range, 25-35 is long and 35-60 is distant. So the inf section is better as volks between 25-35 range. But thats already axis stielhandgrenade range.


The only real strenght is that it gets two lmgs which allows more continuesly shooting and the low reinforce cost of 28 if i am right.

The flexibility of rangers and grens is also a good point why these are being taken at any situation. Grens getting buffed in two WH docs (Terror spawn with stg and have flame nades and nebler VT, def doc inf gets massive def bonus when in light or heavy cover).

As you maybe also figured out the grens got way cheaper over the times in build and reinforce cost.

But i fully support the suggestion. I would actually say to drop the cost down to 375 and reinforce cost from 28 up to 31. (50% reinforce cost of full squad build cost when reinforcing an entire squad of the full squad size. Its something we try to "follow" because in previous versions we had some super expensive and powerfull inf which in return had freaking low reinforce cost that turned elite inf into the best inf for attrition battles).


I also like the idea of that third upgrade. You got my full support for that idea:)

Cant await further posts to other topics and suggestions from your side. The "old school" returned.

[RellHaiser]

Sorry to dredge this up, I realize it's a bit over 3 months old...

I would suggest the following :
- reduce cost to 380 MP
- remove default sniper shot ability
- add a third upgrape, allowing sniper shot and increasing line of sight. That would cost 40 munitions or so.

I would actually say to drop the cost down to 375 and reinforce cost from 28 up to 31. (50% reinforce cost of full squad build cost when reinforcing an entire squad of the full squad size. Its something we try to "follow" because in previous versions we had some super expensive and powerfull inf which in return had freaking low reinforce cost that turned elite inf into the best inf for attrition battles).

I'll throw my support in with this idea as well. Might I also suggest an ability which would unlock with veterancy, inspired by the historical performance of British infantry. A suppressive fire ability, similar to what some of the PE infantry have with their G43s. IIRC there was an incident in Africa where advancing German infantry were forced to retreat after running into a unit of British riflemen. Apparently they thought they were actually taking MG fire.

[Wake]

After more experience with these guys, I do not think that they are bad, but rather just not cost-effective at first. 435 MP is quite expensive. In fact, the Infantry Section is very similar to the PE Assault Grenadiers that cost 415 MP. Both of them cost a lot to build and cannot get anti-tank weapons. They are also not very good unless you spend lots of munition to upgrade their guns.

However, I think the "secret" to using the Infantry Section effectively is to give them 2 Brens and utilize their cheap reinforce cost of only 28 MP. As long as you can keep them alive, they become very deadly with vet. They are the only allied infantry unit that can be effective at long range (except for the very similar Enfield commandos). Rangers and Commandos, even with veterancy, are bad at long range. But the Bren does a surprisingly high amount of damage, and with two of them, the Infantry Section can shred volks like flies and go head-to-head vs Grenadiers.

@RellHaiser: Yes, the Enfield rifle had a bolt design that allowed it to shoot faster than the other bolt action rifles of WW2. In general, the rifles used by each army were as so.
Kar-98k: Most reliable bolt system, very accurate
Mosin-Nagant: Simple bolt system that made it the easiest to manufacture, but also slowest to fire and reload
Enfield: Can shoot faster than the others because of the bolt design. Also had 10 bullets in the clip instead of 5.

[JimQwilleran]

I switched from playing US to Brits again, because I find their infantry section more reliable and devastating than rangers could ever be. I'd say that their cost is ok.

Kar-98k: Most reliable bolt system, very accurate
Mosin-Nagant: Simple bolt system that made it the easiest to manufacture, but also slowest to fire and reload
Enfield: Can shoot faster than the others because of the bolt design. Also had 10 bullets in the clip instead of 5.

I shot Kar-98 and Mosin myself, and I would say opposite, Mosin is both more accurate and faster to reload than Kar.

Unfortunately, I had no chance to test Enfield.

[XAHTEP39]

Kar-98k: Most reliable bolt system, very accurate
Mosin-Nagant: Simple bolt system that made it the easiest to manufacture, but also slowest to fire and reload
Enfield: Can shoot faster than the others because of the bolt design. Also had 10 bullets in the clip instead of 5.

I shot Kar-98 and Mosin myself, and I would say opposite, Mosin is both more accurate and faster to reload than Kar.

Unfortunately, I had no chance to test Enfield.

And what is your (@Wake & Illa) opinion about US bolt-action rifles: M1917 Enfield and M1903 Springfield, with compare to USSR/Wehrmaht/England?

[Wake]

I shot Kar-98 and Mosin myself, and I would say opposite, Mosin is both more accurate and faster to reload than Kar.

Did you load the individual bullets by themselves or use the stripper clips? I have also fired a Mosin and the inferior design of the clip means that, after you have pushed the bullets into the magazine, you have to take out the clip, then close the bolt. With the Kar 98, it has a better clip design, so that you can just close the bolt with the clip still inside. It means you can reload faster.

These parts in the video demonstrate it:

https://youtu.be/AFmamhF-_us?t=22s
https://youtu.be/AFmamhF-_us?t=2m47s

[JimQwilleran]

Did you load the individual bullets by themselves or use the stripper clips? I have also fired a Mosin and the inferior design of the clip means that, after you have pushed the bullets into the magazine, you have to take out the clip, then close the bolt. With the Kar 98, it has a better clip design, so that you can just close the bolt with the clip still inside. It means you can reload faster.

I fired spanish version of mauser, manufactured in La Coruna and was reloading without stripper clips. To be honest I forgot about them existing, until you reminded me now . After taking that into consideration, yes you might be actually right about this one. But on the other hand, the crosshair of Mosin was much more comfortable, it allowed to take more precise shots (subjective opinion )

And what is your (@Wake & Illa) opinion about US bolt-action rifles: M1917 Enfield and M1903 Springfield, with compare to USSR/Wehrmaht/England?

To be honest, I don't know very much about them. I guess that it's because of that M1 Garand was more common among US troops, there is just more focus on it. Maybe Wake will tell you something interesting .

[RellHaiser]

Unfortunately, I had no chance to test Enfield.

Since we've gone off-topic anyway, I kind of want one, though I'd have to get a license first. A few years ago the Canadian military sold off a bunch that we kept using for our Arctic patrols. The reason we still used them instead of something more modern was their reliability in cold weather. The most likely belligerent our troops would have to defend themselves against up there, polar bears. The patrols themselves were less for security and more to fulfill some legal technicality so the land would continue to belong to Canada instead of say, Russia.

[SchlagtSieTot]

Danish Arctic Commando, AKA Sirius Patrol, upholds Danish sovereignty in northern and eastern Greenland, policing the cost, assisting locals living in isolated places within the AOR (the largest national park in the world).
They use the Enfield mod 17. It's completely unscathed by extreme cold. The main weapon used to fend off bears are flare guns and it works most of the time. Last line of personal defense against a bear is a 10mm Glock 20.

The long reconnaissance patrol uses dogsled to traverse the Arctic on patrols. Operators stationed at Sirius are deployed for 26 months straight.