Early game vehicle domination

[Warhawks97]

I (but also others which finally pushed me to open that one here) got "bothered" in the way how early vehicles do dominate the early stage. I am talking mainly about jeeps and schwimms.

In some games there are kind of swarms of vehicles. Up to 4-5 jeeps in a single game build by 2 players but also 3-4 schwimms by 2 WH players. They are also overruning paks not seldomly. Paks doing a fail shot, concentrated bursts from several sides and paks are neutralized. AT guns being not in ambush tend to fail to hit them when those drive like crazy. They do fail more often than not.

The main issue is that they dont cost any fuel but also that they can take a lot of shots. The schwimmwagens currently beating infantry in cover with ease, taking sometimes less than 50% damage and AT guns hardly hit them.

Jeeps survive bursts of HMG fire. Both sometimes fireing lots of bursts at each other without taking any significant damage. Meanwhile they are quickly repaired by engis/pios and so early games turning a way too often into ridiculous Schwimmwagen/jeep battles like swarms of bugs that fight each other. They quickly run away into fog, being reped in a second and go back to fight, smashing the next inf squad that is behind cover.

Its seems that the Jeeps/schwimms are just as durable as in vcoh (where they are being killed even easier in my experience) and very resistant to small arms fire and even heavier weapons. In last game i made 5 bursts from M20 against a schwimmwagen just to down it to like 1 HP. After that the schwimm survived further three cal 50 bursts taking no damage at all! That was fucking absurd. In a previous session a Jeep killed an HMG42 crew in yellow cover from max range and surviving several bursts of it.

So what we do have are schwimms and jeeps that are pretty much as durable as in vcoh (their resistance to small arms fire) but with a "BK weapon" damage system.



So my suggestion would be:

1. Lower their HP/reistance to small arms fire. A concentrated squad rifle volley shot from an advanced position should definately deal lots of damage to them.
2. Should not be able to stand a long firefight against inf in cover
3. More often crit damage. they are unarmored light vehicles. So engine damages, dead gunners etc should happen more frequently.
4. Reduce their MP cost (as much as necessary). 220, 200 MP.... idk. Add fuel cost of 5. This in order to make this units being focused on reconassaince missions but also to force players to use them carefully in early stage. In early stage the fuel cost would simply force a carefully use. In late game, when fuel is far less an issue, the lower MP cost would make them being usefull cheap reconaissance vehicles.


Idk if anyone active in forum thinks same but that domination, spam and how it turns the early games into ridiculous Jeep/schwimmwagen party is a way too crazy.
And the imagination of a group of soliders shooting from a good position that is requesting AT gun support to take in such a light vehicle is just as ridiculous. These infantry soliders would probably be the most laughable ever lived on that planet. Even a 6 men group equiped with muzzleloader muskets would make a better job. Jeez, i will probably add a small group of good old Prussian infantry soldiers from Empire total war to show better resuslts against them as the current K98/M1/Enfield Infantry. And Engis/Sappers/pios have no chance at all doesnt matter how good their cover is.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I am agree, Jeeps and Schwims are very annoying, and they are simply way better than any other unit you can get in early stage, the easiest solution is to tune down their HP, lets say -25%.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Much respect to both of u guys.. but I do clearly disagree any further changes upon these units specifically since that _ as MarKr once mentioned it _ they are so sensetive, and even the smallest changes could more likely cause a balancing disaster... Remember when the Jeep was over buffed on 486 only due to such a tiny mistake in values as it then had to be later tuned once again at 488 immediately?
Just a 'NO' from my side! They are really fine as they currently are in my humble opinion.

[Kasbah]

Yes from my side. Jeeps are schwimms are amazingly annoying. I often see full squads destroyed or heavily killed (3-4 members) because of one of these vehicles.
The rocket launcher jeep is also very annoying and should get a freezing time. If the nebel has a stupid time after everything, the rocket launcher should at least get one after every shoot.

[Warhawks97]

I am agree, Jeeps and Schwims are very annoying, and they are simply way better than any other unit you can get in early stage, the easiest solution is to tune down their HP, lets say -25%.

i wouldnt even mind 50% lol.

Things getting really kind of ridiculous. Jeeps making a circle inside of Volks, pios and Pgrens being fired by all 18 K98 from close range for several seconds and escapes with like 1/3 HP left. Jeep survives 5 or more MG42 bursts.
Schwimm get volleyed by two Rifle squads which stay behind green cover and between close and Mid range. The next Rifle squads fires in a quick session from very short range. Schwimm turns arround, kills 2 + suppresses the next rifle squad in one bursts and escapes with like 1/4 HP.

In mid game i am currently spamming schwimms and pumas. Schwimms run in first to draw pak fire on them. Pak most likely fails, schwimms reveals everything and Pumas raping all the units.


They should die much faster by MG bursts but most importanty: They do have to get crits more frequently. They dont have any armor and every critical area (engine etc) is unprotected. Paks should be required to kill bren carriers and scout cars ( and maybe armored jeeps) but its silly that normal MG and small arms fire cant kill these little unarmored.


Drop HP by like 50% (or somehow change armor), add more often crit damage. In return add 5 fuel cost and and drop MP cost to like 210 or so.


I just think its wrong that rifle and MG fire deals vcoh damage to them.


Edit:

OK.

Here we go. Checked out some stats, correct me if i am wrong.

Jeep has 185 HP, schwimm 165 and Bike 125.


I checked the Rifles M1 vs Motorcylce and schwimm. Schwimm has jeeps TT as it seems.

The pen and accuracy is untouched and normal Rifle stats ar beinge applied. Just the damage is modified with 0.6 vs bikes and 0.3 vs schwimmwagen. Taken the average M1 damage of 25 a single bullet would deal 15 damage vs bike and 7.5 vs schwimm.

That means that it requires apporx 15 hits to kill motorcycle and 22 to kill schwimm. Adding the 0.22 accuracy at max range for m1 it then means that it needs arround 50 shots to kill a schwimmwagen and arround 100 to kill schwimm. Untill that happens the half squad is pretty much dead.

I will edit later to make a suggestion.

Edit II:


How to begin.

First correct stats:
Jeep:
185 HP
Takes between 6.9 and 9,9 damage from a single K98 bullet. At between 25 and 60 range 35% of fired K98 bullets will hit it only.

Schwimm:
165 HP
Takes between 6 and 9 damage from M1 Garand shot. between 30-22% of the bullets will hit it between 25 and 60 range.

Bike:
125 HP
Takes between 12 and 18 damage per Bullet fired from M1


So what to change:


Instead of having such a reduction of damage in the TT of rifles i would make it as follows

Suggesting:

Schwimm:
HP from 165 to 135 HP
K98 and other small arms damage modifier (MGs etc) 0.3 to 0.8,
Rifle accuracy modifier from 1 to 1.2
Rifle accuracy against target moving from 1 to 0.85

Jeep:
HP from 185 to 155
Rifle and other small arms damage modifier (MGs etc) from 0.3 to 0.8. (Cal 50 no damage reduction)
Rifle accuracy modifier from 1 to 1.2
Rifle accuracy against target moving from 1 to 0.85


Bike:
from 125 to 125 HP.
Rifle and other small arms damage modifier (MGs etc) from 0.3 to 0.8. (Cal 50 no damage reduction)
Rifle accuracy modifier from 1 to 1.1
Rifle accuracy against target moving from 1 to 0.8


Reduce their MP cost by 30-40 MP. Add 5 fuel cost. That way players would have to take care of them in early game. For late game they could afterall get enough for reconassaince duties and sniper counter.

Edit IV:

Just for fun:
K98 damage in vcoh is 10. Jeep has same HP (185). The K98 damage reduction vs jeep is 0.6.

So in BK a jeep takes between 6 and 9 damage per K98 bullet. In vcoh its 6! meanwhile the damage output of these vehices have received "BK standard".

Edit 5

For all those who care why schwimm loses vs Jeep:

Schwimm deals between 10 and 8 damage per bullet against Jeep. Jeep between 9 and 10 damage per bullet against schwimm. When both are moving then jeep as even better accuracy against schwimm as schwimm has vs jeep.

The Jeep fires between 16 and 24 bullets per burst in a 2-3 second burst. Schwimm fires its 15-30 rounds in 1-2 seconds. The jeep a shorter cooldown between the bursts. Especially on long and distant range the jeeps cooldown is shorter.

Ammount of bursts is the same before reload, reload time is also equal so far. Both reload after 8-9 bursts. Reload time is 6 seconds for jeep, 6-6.5 for schwimm.


If you got any furhther questions just ask me in steam or here.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Let me add this to what I have already said above... If such units would become not as fair as they are currently at early game stage of low res games.. then simply they will turn to be completely useless all the times whatever on high or even low res!

However that btw both the HMG42 teams as well as the MG42 nests seem to be somehow underperforming against Jeeps, specifically when compared to the Allies HMG squads against Schwims for now.

[Wake]

Warhawks or anyone with relevant knowledge, please answer the following questions.

Jeep vs Panzer Elite Schwimm - Who wins at close range, who wins at long range?

Jeep vs Wehrmacht Schwimm - Who wins at close range, who wins at long range?

Jeep vs Bike - Who wins at close range, who wins at long range?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Just by experience since I don't have my PC to check Crosix for now as most of u already know why...
-Jeep beats Bike at any range.
-Jeep also beats PE Schwim at any range.. but this Schwim has cool abilities too.
-Jeep beats WH Schwim at long range only!
These units were changed many times and finally now they are balanced enough, and I believe they will not be touched anymore time again.

But the topic at the end is not regarding such a matter btw; as it's mainly discussing how effective those units are vs inf at early game stage specifically on low res games and not about which of them would win against another!!

[Warhawks97]

However that btw both the HMG42 teams as well as the MG42 nests seem to be somehow underperforming against Jeeps, specifically when compared to the Allies HMG squads against Schwims for now.

Yes.

For some reason the allied HMG has no damage reduction vs "tp_vehicle_allied_jeep".
That means a single bullet deals full 15-20 damage against schwimmwagens, rate of fire is 10 rounds per second. That means the allied HMG (US one at least) requires between 9-11 hits to kill a schwimmwagen (and less for bike). Accuracy is 0.2 at max range. Moving schwimms are bit harder to hit. Target moving accuracy modifier vs schwimm is 0.75 and vs bike 0.85.

PE schwimmwagen, WH schwimmwagen and Jeep do have the same armor type "tp_vehicle_allied_jeep"!

The Axis HMG42 has damage modifier of 0.3 vs "tp_vehicle_allied jeep". Standard damage of axis HMG42 is 16-21 per bullet and 15-20 for the HMG42 nest with 25 rounds per second. That means axis HMG42 deals between 4,8 and 6,8 damage per bullet against jeep. So it requires 28-39 hits to kill the jeep (MG nest even more). The accuracy at max range for the HMG42 is 0.125. When jeep is moving this value is modified with 0.75.


That seems very broken oO.

Jeep vs Panzer Elite Schwimm - Who wins at close range, who wins at long range?

Jeep vs Wehrmacht Schwimm - Who wins at close range, who wins at long range?

Jeep vs Bike - Who wins at close range, who wins at long range?

PE and WH schwimm have the same target type (tp_allied_vehicle_jeep). Also bike and schwimm share the same weapons (MG42 with MG34 rate of fire, allied HMG accuracy and bullet damage higher than axis HMG42).

At long range the jeep wins. Jeep has lower cooldown and each bullet deals more damage vs "tp_allies_vehicle_jeep" as a schwimmwagen bullet does against same armor tpye.
The cooldown for jeep is 2,25-3 seconds. On close range modified with 0.6, at medium-distant modified with 1. Schwimms and bikes have 3-3,5 sec cooldown and that modified with 0.6 at close range, 1 at medium and 1,2 at long and distant range.

besides that jeep has 20 HP more than schwimm.

So at range jeep win pretty much always. But the closer you get the better gets the schwimms chance to win though would probably lose. The Bike is always dead when facing jeep.


But the schwimm slaughters infantry much better. With 15 rounds per second and 20-25 bullet damage vs inf it shreds early allied inf quickly. Just vs not moving rangers it has reduced accuracy (but not when those move) and against movng AB rangers (not staying) it suffers some accuracy penalties. So keep moving with AB rangers, dont move with Rangers (that goes so far for most enemie weapons).

The jeep has rate of fire of 8 and deals just 15-20 damage per bullet. Against PE Grens it suffers 0.75 damage modifier (always) and also 0.75 accuracy modifier (when not moving).

So Get sandbags up with Pgrens, Hold pos directly and dont move! That way you shouldnt get any significant damage from jeeps. Note also pls that allied HMG also suffers same accuracy penalties vs PE inf when those do not move.

So as an advice when allied get jeeps and HMG´s. Get sandbags up with Pgrens and dont do anything. Put schwimm and/or pak behind and you should be able to stay your line nicely. HMG´s and jeeps wont harm you for a long time if you stay behind the sandbags. Paks and schwimm can prevent that rifles throw nades.

Let me add this to what I have already said above... If such units would become not as fair as they are currently at early game stage of low res games.. then simply they will turn to be completely useless all the times whatever on high or even low res! .

Atm i do get schwimms and jeeps out throughout the entire game. I even prefer jeep atm over the M20. vs schrecks both gonna die anyway rather fast. And jeeps takes small arms fire very well. Just Jeeps and schwimms are being much harder to hit with paks than m20 and greyhounds and pumas etc. In fact paks (checked the medium guns) will miss more than 50% of their shots.

So my current strategy is in mid game to get out jeeps and schwimms and sending them first. Enemie paks will most likely fail to hit them and being revealed by those. Then i follow up with Pumas/M16/greyhounds that will slaughter the paks while jeep is hunting down the snipers. And if jeep or schwimm dies then it was just a cost of 240 mp. And with that startegy i go on all the time and making paks helpless against the following main assault. even 17 pdr turned out to be useless being overruned in seconds by schwimm and puma.


Also i dont think it would make them usless.

They still doing well as reconassaince units and sniper/recon counter. They also provide fire support and limited movment denying.


So atm players did complain about two things.
1. The schwimmagens and jeeps that dominate the early stage and that make infantry combat almost obsolet.
2. Sniper spam in mid game (often sniper tag teams arent rare). Especially vs Luftwaffe and PE in general this strategy is extremly effective but simple. Some players recently asked me how i do deal with such threats.


So i think we can eliminate both "issues" at the same time.
1. Jeeps schwimms becoming way less HP and less resistant to small arms fire. They arent supposed to fight like armored vehicles that beat HMG´s and infantry in cover in 1 vs 1. So they would become pretty fragile to those small arms fire but meanwhile MP cost dropped down to like 180 MP. Also fuel cost of 5 added. That way there wouldnt be a spam in early stage. But in mid-late game they would be a decent solution against snipers and good reconassaince units. But they wouldnt pass like 1000 soldiers that shooting them and detecting AT guns far beyond the frontlines. You get them for reconassaince and exploiting missions and anti sniper duties but you lose them quickly to infantry that is arround. So almost pure sniper spam would become more risky but rewared when being combined with other infantry forces.

And for docs like luft, inf or whatever these 5 fuel in mid-late stage shouldnt be much of an issue.


Also armored and fuel consuming early vehicles like bren carrier would become more worthy in their cost. But atm the jeep, that is 100 MP and 10 fuel cheaper, is almost behaving like that armored bren carrier if not better due to the speed. So brits might become more core faction in early armored vehicle support. Meanwhile PE could either get as only faction two schwimms when building Kampfgruppe company or would become the axis core faction for early armored combat vehicle support for the team.

US and WH would be focused again a lot more on inf in early game but having later nice cheap but fragile reconassaince tools prefectly for exploiting defenses. PE and CW might become core factions for early combat vehicle support.

[Wake]

My own opinions:

-Yes, early vehicles dominate light game.

-Wehrmacht Schwimm has too much health and is OP compared to the Panzer Elite Schwimm

-The Bren Carrier is underpowered. It should be the allied equivalent of the scout car, being an early game bulletproof vehicle that does a lot of damage and terrorizes the enemy.

[Warhawks97]

My own opinions:-Wehrmacht Schwimm has too much health and is OP compared to the Panzer Elite Schwimm

Hmm, we really need some testing.

Actually both seem to have same HP and sharing same target type.

There is only tp motorcylce and jeep. schwimms and jeep have tp jeep and motorcycle tp motorcyle.

So if someone could make several tests with PE and WH schwimm to see how they perform. Both should be same in combat. I am spending hours atm in corsix to fight all the "unexplainable stuff" (which btw is soo much). Maybe i lost myself somewhere there between numbers.

So maybe make a test. PE and WH schimms vs jeeps, inf in cover etc to finally say which performed how. I would say both should show same results.

[Yafa]

-The Bren Carrier is underpowered. It should be the allied equivalent of the scout car, being an early game bulletproof vehicle that does a lot of damage and terrorizes the enemy.

bren carrier is already bulletproof now ,it has been so nicely buffed

[Warhawks97]

But as long as jeeps and schwimms keep more or less "bulletproof" as well the cost balance isnt good. 240-250 HP units which hardly die to small arms, which have way better firepower, no fuel cost, higher speed (and abilties) the 340/10 for bren carrier isnt really fair.

It would be more fair if the unarmored one would be a lot more vulnerable to small arms. Then the 340/10 would pay off the armor and "bulletproofness".

[SchlagtSieTot]

Have any of you noticed that PAKs have an unusual bad accuracy against jeeps with rocket launcher?
I've played af few games today against AI, and this is a consistent bug. My PAKs only hit jeeps 1/4 times. This is very odd.

[Warhawks97]

The reccoiless uses same tp as other jeeps.

Thing is that all paks hit that small vehicles hardly.

The 37 mm at gun for example has 65% accuracy at max range and this is modified with 0.8 against jeeps when those do move.
The 50 mm has also 65% at max range but against jeep its modified with 0.6.


So AT guns most likely fail to hit moving jeeps and schwimms when those move. And i am not seldomly use that to my advantage by sending always these units first against paks and tanks in order to reveal those while my combat vehicles and tanks following up.


And bots seem to be extremly lucky as well. Ive never had issues killing stuart tanks with tank IV´s. But when bot used the stuarts then those usually took 3 hits to kill while penetrating the tank IV frequently.

So bots are strange anyways.