Arty suggestion(s)

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Warhawks97
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Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Warhawks97 » 12 Nov 2015, 01:57

Due to that irritating, unclear, derailed and what else topic:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=901&view=unread#unread

Arty ALL:
Add 0.75 damage modifier to all arty against pretty much all tanks (maybe excluding Hellcat). Killing tanks in reality was difficult as the shot did need to hit very directly and large enough. Arty in game has generally high damage and guranteed "penetration" against tanks. That would make arty not the "best anti tank weapons". My personal favorit antio tank arty is the 210 nebler with vertical barrage.


i know make some "clearer suggestions".
Rocket Arty

150 Nebelwerfer (nebler, Maultier):
1. Range from 200 down to 175.
2. Remove set up times and dismantling times
3. Increase damage from 100-150 to 150
4. Slightly increased scatter
5. Cost to 325 MP

210 nebelwerer:
1. Range to 150
2. Remove set up times and dismantling times
3. Slightly increased scatter.

4.5 inch (114 mm) Calliope rockets:
can stay as it is
(damage 100, range 150 etc)

Walking Stuka and Hotckiss:
1. Range to 125 (Thats approx the range where most players are shooting from and from where it is really deadly. Shooting from larger distance is often a waste due to the scatter of these units. That change could help players, especially newer one, to use these units at maximum efficency from best range)
(everything else is OK, high damage etc)


Howitzers:

Hummel:
1. Increase standard fireing range from 200 to 225.
2. Increase damage from 400-600 to 600
3. Remove stationary fireing position
4. Lower reload time from 10 to 9 seconds.


(Priest, Wespe, 105 howitzers can stay)

105 sherman:
1. Reduce cost from 650/80 to 550/50 (its the worst compared to priest and wespe, still the most expensive one)

Grille:
1. Range from 200 to 150.
2. Reduce cost from 600 MP, 70 fuel and 50 ammo to 550 MP, 50 fuel and 50 ammo.

LeIG8
1. Range from 150 to 135. The gun is deadly in direct fire and has ambush. Direct firing should be its main role instead of barraging.


CW 75 mm HT
1. Increase barrage cost from 25 to 35.
2. Increase range for super charge rounds from 150 to 175.

88 mm Flak/AT:
1. Add ability to Luftwaffe 88
2. Increase arty barrage cost from 35 to 45.



Thats it at first. It took me hours now to get everything done. But Generally rocket arty would be short ranged and supposed to be fired before and during assaults and more short ranged. That way unmobile arty wouldnt become victims of rocket launchers which are not supposed to be counterarty. In return nebler would be more mobile.
The Hummel would be the absolut king in terms of range among SPGS and dominating with long range rounds. also average damage increased.

Also arty wouldnt be so often "best anti tank weapon" anymore. It would damage those but not killing them soo frequently right away.

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Butterkeks
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Re: Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Butterkeks » 18 Nov 2015, 14:59

Warhawks97 wrote:Add 0.75 damage modifier to all arty against pretty much all tanks (maybe excluding Hellcat). Killing tanks in reality was difficult as the shot did need to hit very directly and large enough. Arty in game has generally high damage and guranteed "penetration" against tanks. That would make arty not the "best anti tank weapons". My personal favorit antio tank arty is the 210 nebler with vertical barrage.


I don't really like this idea. Sometimes Arty is the only way to stop axis heavies or SP.

Warhawks97 wrote:150 Nebelwerfer (nebler, Maultier):
1. Range from 200 down to 175.
2. Remove set up times and dismantling times
3. Increase damage from 100-150 to 150
4. Slightly increased scatter
5. Cost to 325 MP


1. Got no problems with it's range.
2. Why? Like that you can just make a "hit & run" which can't be really countered by arty.
3. Why? Dealing enough damage imo
4. Also enough scatter imo.
5. Obsolete imo.

Don't forget that it's the standard arty of axis and that it's in nearly every doc. Don't buff it too much, or imo not at all.

Warhawks97 wrote:210 nebelwerer:
1. Range to 150
2. Remove set up times and dismantling times
3. Slightly increased scatter.


1. What is it's current range?
2. No, see above.
3. Really dude? This baby deals enough damage^^


Warhawks97 wrote:4.5 inch (114 mm) Calliope rockets:
can stay as it is
(damage 100, range 150 etc)


Kinda weak, but therefore many rockets. Agreed.

Warhawks97 wrote:Walking Stuka and Hotckiss:
1. Range to 125 (Thats approx the range where most players are shooting from and from where it is really deadly. Shooting from larger distance is often a waste due to the scatter of these units. That change could help players, especially newer one, to use these units at maximum efficency from best range)
(everything else is OK, high damage etc)


Well, wouldn't mind, but "because noobs can't use it properly" isn't a godd reason for me :D

Warhawks97 wrote:Hummel:
1. Increase standard fireing range from 200 to 225.
2. Increase damage from 400-600 to 600
3. Remove stationary fireing position
4. Lower reload time from 10 to 9 seconds.


1. More standard range? Don't like this idea.
2. Wtf?
3. Why?
4. Also why?

I think it's better to have the stationary fire position. You sacrifice mobility and a quick escape for a higher fire rate. I like it like this.

Warhawks97 wrote:(Priest, Wespe, 105 howitzers can stay)


Agreed. Wespe is my favorite Arty^^

Warhawks97 wrote:105 sherman:
1. Reduce cost from 650/80 to 550/50 (its the worst compared to priest and wespe, still the most expensive one)


I play lot's of inf doc, but never use sherman arty. The few times I've seen it it actually did very well. Good damage, good accuracy etc.

Warhawks97 wrote:Grille:
1. Range from 200 to 150.
2. Reduce cost from 600 MP, 70 fuel and 50 ammo to 550 MP, 50 fuel and 50 ammo.


Well... I seldomly play def. Sacrificing range for cheaper Grille? Can't decide on this one.

Warhawks97 wrote:LeIG8
1. Range from 150 to 135. The gun is deadly in direct fire and has ambush. Direct firing should be its main role instead of barraging.


I don't care. I never build it.

Warhawks97 wrote:CW 75 mm HT
1. Increase barrage cost from 25 to 35.
2. Increase range for super charge rounds from 150 to 175.


I also don't really see a reason for this.
Can be deadly IF it hits, but inaccurate AF.

Warhawks97 wrote:88 mm Flak/AT:
1. Add ability to Luftwaffe 88
2. Increase arty barrage cost from 35 to 45.


Wouldn't mind.

As I always say, imo BK is now balanced as never before and I don't like the idea of adapting those massive changes to the gameplay. Arty is kinda fine as it is now and changes will only lead to even more disbalance, more changes etc.
Much work for little reward.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Warhawks97 » 18 Nov 2015, 21:01

Well, Butter. You should know that axis tanks do already get just 0.75 from arty. Just i didnt say it here. So check that out first:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=901


Rocket Arty:
Thing is that rocket arty is a way too often used as "i have the ammo to use it, i use it and shooting simply into fog of war and more importantly i use it always", regardless if there comes a vehicle, a rifle squad or simply just because ot looks cool to use it.

Also rocket arty is very often used to counter howitzers.

So i am suggesting these things for rocket arty to make it more a short ranged but mobile assault artillery. So rocket arty should get relatively close to the target, shoot quickly their barrage against the target and retreat while being covered by an assault at the same time. But atm rocket arty is staying arround somewhere, shoots somewhere and yeah.... it simply shoots without purpose. If someone would still try to use it like howitzers then he would have to risk getting quite close and losing it against mobile forces such as vehicles and infantry.

Waling stuka/Hotchkiss
Basically hotchkiss and walking stuka would be like "Arty churchill" (and other rocket arty). Instead of shooting arround "like howitzers" from range and without any idea but the idea to shoot they would follow the assault forces and crushing stronger resistance from a closer range.

Its basically in order to make a clear differences between rocket arty and howitzer arty in the way the get used.

Thing is walking stuka (and hotchkiss) is that people always keep shooting from max range with huge scatter, often into the fog of war, and hitting nothing. Then they run to forum and want cost reduction just because they hadnt been smart enough. Ive been playing TH doc quite a few times and backed my Tank IV with double hotchkiss which fired from pretty close range. And damn, i killed so much. Jumbo shermans, every emplacment in my path and just everything. So by forcing players to use rocket arty correctly there would be less complains about "unefficency" and less brainless bombing during games.

Nebler:
Nebler damage slightly up because of the "emplacment spam complains" going on atm. Together with the 0.75 damage vs tanks arty would be better in emplacment killing but less good as "utlimate tank buster weapons". If you fear you wont be able to stop axis tanks anymore note pls that axis tanks or most of them do have reduced taken damage from arty. Just i think walking stuka and especially 210 nebler killing a way too often tanks and especially instant bashing any kind of larger tank assaults.
Also Tiger complained that Maultier barrage cost too much. But actually he pays the very same ammount of ammo per rocket as other 150 nebelwerfer.

Take together these too facts and players would have to spend more attention to them whenever they want to use them. Less randomly nonstop shooting at every corner of the map, regardless if there are enemies or not and so on. But in return, when using them smart as assault unit, highly rewarded with flexibility and momentum that increases effectivenss of following attack.


Howitzers units
The 105 sherman has pretty short range (180 compared to 200-250 for wespe and priest, 105 howitzers and all other arty), has longest reload time and generally it seems to have worst accuracy. I used it very few times already but idk. using normal howitzers, VT, 107 mortar and off maps is a lot more cost effective.


The Hummel because guys like tiger (or only him, idk) complained its too expensive etc. They didnt or dont want to see the different puposes of 105 arty and 150, their pros and cons in specific moments. And instead making Hummel cheaper to call and cheaper to fire which would most likely end up in nonstop Hummel call in and use i simply want to undeline its role as heavy artillery a way more. That way players would get a very powerfull but costly arty and they would have to make a real decision between medium and heavy arty and they have to be able to estimate well which one is more cost effective in which moment.



In fact its nothing more than helping players to use specific arty more correctly in their intended role. Or better, to "force" them to use them correctly. But with the discussion here in forum it often seems that lots of players shoot each arty unit "one times against a tree" and making a "cost efficency statment" based on the destruction that tree suffered". But they totally neglecting to realize that specific arty efficency is highly depending on specific situations. I just would give them a "reason" to use each arty more correctly. For example using nebelwerfer from a closer distance for better effect is not being done currently due of the vulnerability to immediate counterarty which posses such a threat because of the dismantle times. Just to make one sample. For others i would put some more "force" such as hotchkiss and walking stuka but also, as i said, to reduce brainless random shootings across the map.


Hope you got my point.

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Re: Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Yafa » 18 Nov 2015, 22:27

Warhawks97 wrote:Just i didnt say it here. So check that out first:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=901

you posted this link twice !
also butterkeks actually had some comments already on that topic .. can't you see them my son? so , he surely knows about it ... i think there is no need to put this link anymore time again my dear.

Warhawks97 wrote:The Hummel because guys like tiger (or only him, idk) complained its too expensive etc.

only 'tiger'?!?!?!
excuse me .. but now i believe that you are that one who should really check this link !! the topic was created by 'seha' .. not 'tiger' ! then other users such as 'kasbah' and me for example (later including 'tiger' and 'sukin' too) all agreed with seha's points at last ...... why saying "only tiger"?????? are u neglecting all of us or what?!?!

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Warhawks97
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Re: Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Warhawks97 » 18 Nov 2015, 23:22

I am not your son, i would rather die i think. Also Butter didnt read it entirely. I just wanted to tell him that allis arty doesnt do full damage against tanks. Against axis tanks allied arty already has a 0.75 damage modifier. That basically means that only vet sniper priest is able to kill a Panther by making three fully direct hits out of 6 a barrage has. Allied arty most of the time cripples down axis tanks. But killing them entirely requires often a further barrage or other units. Long tom usually finish tanks when those got stopped already.

It was obvious that he didnt read that. I just said that this should be the rule for all tanks. I see no reason why hotchkiss for example is the best tank tank killer in TH doc.
I simply stopped using TH hunters in some numbers in TH doc. Instead i just use Tank IV H with vet and Zimmerit and double hotchkiss behind. Every Tank the Tank IV cant kill is killed by hotchkiss. I did kill church ace in one barrage, jumbos, other churchills just everyhting. And my Hotchkiss hadnt higher vets even (just one). So why should i be able to kill any allied tanks in a 5 second barrage seconds with unveted arty? I mean the 210 nebler is the best non vet tank killer arty unit. Vertical barrage and the first rocket can easily kill a tank.

So obviously Butter didnt see that. I just reminded him.


And What was seha point? He put that into "bug section" talking about the "stationary mode" saying that the description is misleading as it doesnt add range.

I answered that it is taken from vcoh.

Also Ammo truck should lower cost by 20 ammo? Someone already made a calculation how much ammo it helps to save. Shall wespe fire for 30 ammo? That would be the lowest 105 arty barrage cost of BK history.


About cost efficency its bullshit to talk about it. No other arty has such massive damage. A single hit can deal twice the damage of a walking stuka hit. Do you really want Hummel, which basically oneshots everything with that massive damage, is shooting for what? 70 ammo? 60 ammo? I mean the Priest is deadly but only coz of vet sniper accuracy. Hummel right kils stuff with first hit. Hit a Priest and its dead to 99% even when shell didnt hit it directly.

Furthermore you should consider it as an "empirical fact" that Hummel is now, since wespe got put into same tree and wespe cost increase (few patches ago), by far more often used than ever before. The Hummel actually vanished from the games. Now i see it quite often whenever a player goes SE doc (in 2 vs 2 and 3 vs 3).

I guess lots of players would hate to see a 150 mm arty with such rate of fire, range and instant kill power would shoot arround for a cost slightly higher as 105 shell.


And in order to make the Hummel being really a heavy arty i only suggested to increase the average damage which is currently at 500. A walking stuka/hotchkiss it as 350 just as a side information.


I also said "Tiger" but also "maybe others". Kasbash wanted more effective Ammo HT which might be worth a constructive discussion. Just we have to keep in mind the affects it can have when wespe fires for 30 ammo.

Sukin had something against Hummels or complaining? If i remember correct is was one of the first who, if situation was suited, used the Hummel with deadly efficency even before Wespe got moved into same unlock sub tree. But sukin generally makes a very good use of every unit he deploys.

But i talked with others about hummel in steam but most of them considerd the unit as ok as it is. If anyone thinks different he can make his point here.

And when i discuss with butter i can do it as long as i want. I simply didnt use many arguments in first post in order to write not a to huge wall of text. But probably i prefer to discuss with him in steam in order to prevent comments like this with "billions" of usless "!" and "?". But at least you dont use "LARGE LETTERS" which is very appreciating already.

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Re: Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Yafa » 18 Nov 2015, 23:48

Warhawks97 wrote:I am not your son, i would rather die i think.

impolite .. i am probably 30 years older than you anyways , that's why i said you are like my son .... but sadly it seems like to be a dishonor having a son such as u however.

but it's not a surprise now ... as you already tried to simply disregard the opinion of several other users like if it was only tiger who supported that opinion .. hopefully it didn't work.

don't ever try doing this again my son :- )

Warhawks97 wrote:I simply didnt use many arguments in first post in order to write not a to huge wall of text.

but i think you always keep posting these walls of texts that no one ever reads .. hahaha

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Re: Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 Nov 2015, 00:10

I didnt expect to have BK players that are active in forum as well and older than 50. But for me it came over like "I am above you, you are my servant and you know nothing".


The good thing on "walls of text" is, that they often have many points, arguments, facts etc and can, if being read, push a thinking process in other heads. I simply read such walls x 5 pretty much every day. News, interesting stuff, scintific stuff and things i need for uni. So for me its nothing abnormal to read much. Just many nowadays do not read enough i think and they do think not enough.


Ive been reading the other topic and well. Sukin was mainly complaining about the (Luft) 88. But the problem here is the high cost of each individual unit of Luft (and PE) which makes combined arms first possible after a longer time of saving res. But here not the 88 is the problem.

Kasbash was complaining about the ammo HT being not worth it. But fact is that on long term it saves a lot. On mid term already. Stuff like res trade has to be considered as well. Ammo HT and res trade (and even the use of VT) can enable SE to really shoot a lot of barrages.

Also Fact is that, when it comes to efficency against tanks, that the direct hit damage of priest against tank is 251,25 due to damage reductions allied arty has against most axis (or all) tanks. A Hummel direct hit deals arround 400-600 on a tank with a hit. So even easy eights are almost instant killed. Its a simple fact.


So i did not disregard others. And btw i talked with cyber. He really didnt know that allied arty has already that 0.75 damage reduction against axis tanks already. But he also said that Hummel is fair as it has a really big bang. Just its needed only in specific situations. Its true that Wespe is often sufficient but we cant set medium and heavy arty on one level and treat it in a same way. Just because a massive damage of 150 is not always necessary doesnt mean its never necessary or usefull.
A old mate of me who always only used Tigers and panthers got forced to use Jagdpanther when TH doc lost Panther G. The cost of both units had been pretty equal, Jagdpanther even cheaper. He used the Jagdpanther like he used the Panther G. I used and rushed it into AB ranger, commandos etc. He even used double Jagdpanther against an AB force and called the units usless. He expected the Jagdpanther being in every aspect as usefull as Panther G. But such demands are just "ridiculous". When the opponent doesnt use tanks then a Jagpanther (or elepahnt etc) is useless. And its the same with Hummel. When you dont have to counter walls of emplacments and enemie arty at the same time then wespe is always sufficient.

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Re: Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Yafa » 19 Nov 2015, 00:32

Warhawks97 wrote:I didnt expect to have BK players that are active in forum as well and older than 50.


i am not an active user really .. i only have very few posts from time to another .... also notice that i am not discussing with you about the game , cause i am not a true gamer like any of you at this late age of mine now for sure !

Warhawks97 wrote:But for me it came over like "I am above you, you are my servant and you know nothing".

i only said "my son" and not "my servant" !!

Warhawks97 wrote:The good thing on "walls of text" is, that they often have many points, arguments, facts etc and can, if being read, push a thinking process in other heads. I simply read such walls x 5 pretty much every day. News, interesting stuff, scintific stuff and things i need for uni. So for me its nothing abnormal to read much. Just many nowadays do not read enough i think and they do think not enough.

good to know that you reading much .. but remember , it's not about wasting the time for just reading ... as it's all about what or how you are exactly reading in fact. also , it's always best to try describing as well as reviewing all of ur own viewpoints without speaking too much being a talk active person , always keep that in mind.

Armacalic
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Re: Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Armacalic » 19 Nov 2015, 20:40

Yafa wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:I didnt expect to have BK players that are active in forum as well and older than 50.


i am not an active user really .. i only have very few posts from time to another .... also notice that i am not discussing with you about the game , cause i am not a true gamer like any of you at this late age of mine now for sure !

Warhawks97 wrote:But for me it came over like "I am above you, you are my servant and you know nothing".

i only said "my son" and not "my servant" !!

Warhawks97 wrote:The good thing on "walls of text" is, that they often have many points, arguments, facts etc and can, if being read, push a thinking process in other heads. I simply read such walls x 5 pretty much every day. News, interesting stuff, scintific stuff and things i need for uni. So for me its nothing abnormal to read much. Just many nowadays do not read enough i think and they do think not enough.

good to know that you reading much .. but remember , it's not about wasting the time for just reading ... as it's all about what or how you are exactly reading in fact. also , it's always best to try describing as well as reviewing all of ur own viewpoints without speaking too much being a talk active person , always keep that in mind.


So, "your points are not important because I cannot be bothered to read them." No, fuck off, old man. Discussions, arguments and debates do not work that way. Not even for your beloved Tiger. If you're going to reason with someone else, you'll hear what they have to say.

And at the very least, accept that you have been told off, the opinions that you mentioned don't exactly have much to do with te situation at hand, only one person really talked bout the Hummel being too expensive, as opposed to the munition halftrack being, apparently, not that useful.

One more thing. Don't expect people to be polite with you, when you laugh at their face.
Yafa wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:I didnt expect to have BK players that are active in forum as well
but i think you always keep posting these walls of texts that no one ever reads .. hahaha

You have to make sure Tiger makes an idiot of himself in the forum, not make an idiot of yourself here in his stead. Get with the program.

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Re: Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Kasbah » 20 Nov 2015, 10:11

Set up time for nebel is a joke and should be removed. No other unit has a freezing time EVERY FUCKING MOVEMENT. Getting out the barracks, rotating, moving, after firing...

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Re: Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Viper » 20 Nov 2015, 14:07

Kasbah wrote:Set up time for nebel is a joke and should be removed. No other unit has a freezing time EVERY FUCKING MOVEMENT. Getting out the barracks, rotating, moving, after firing...

YES, but not at the cost of reducing the range

@Hawks,
most of the suggestions in my opinion are worthless and i only complained about the ammo half-trucks being useless and the Hummel's range being shorter compared to priest then kasbah, tiger and yafa agreed me.. sukin denied ur claim about RA doc too while also pointing at the weak Kt and the nerfed 88s.

Armacalic wrote:No, fuck off, old man.

Armacalic wrote:You have to make sure Tiger makes an idiot of himself in the forum, not make an idiot of yourself here in his stead. Get with the program.

some moderator has to clean up this piece of crap i think.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 Nov 2015, 19:46

Kasbah wrote:Set up time for nebel is a joke and should be removed. No other unit has a freezing time EVERY FUCKING MOVEMENT. Getting out the barracks, rotating, moving, after firing...


and no other arty is so cheap, so early available, shooting its barrage so fast, requires no CP and deals such damage (callis deal clearly less against fortifications and stuff) and has still the range of an (mobile) howitzer (200 range, compared to 150 for allied calli rocket launchers).

Compared to allied rocket launchers (or walking stuka a and hotchkiss) they do have very low scatter. Also pls tell me, why axis rocket launchers get reduced scatter with vet while allied does not? How to make "rockets flying better"? Super Human Magical influence and affecting things with telekinesis? X-men mutant? vet 1: "Improves Telekinesis of the weapon crew by 5%"?

Take calli sherman as sample. It costs 8 CP´s, has low range but huge scatter, lower damage (esspecially against tanks as axis neblers) and it never really manages to finish the barrage as counter arty barrages striking soon. A Grille on field and calli will rarely survive a barrage.

The calli Jeep has also a long "ready to fire phase" where it turns up the launcher but doesnt start to shoot.

So check your facts before crying.




Basically Rocket arty in general shouldnt have more than 150 range. Callis and nebler should have 150, walking stuka and hotchkiss 125 (shooting from larger range is pointless anyway for those two). Therefore they should be pretty cheap (which is the case except calli sherman) but also slightly cheaper to fire combined with scatter for area bombing rather than "sniping barrages" and vet should only provide a reduced cooldown but not reduced scatter.


In short Rocket arty (All):
1. 150 range maximum for calli and 150 nebler. Larger rocket arty (hotchkiss, 210 nebler, walking stuka) 120 range.
2. No reduced scatter with veterancy, only reduced cooldown
3. Cheap to fire (calli jeep, 150 nebler barrages cheaper a bit)
4. Adjusted Scatter for 150 nebler to be more area bombing instead of almost "sniping barrages"

150 nebler
1. 325 MP build cost
2. No set up and dismantle time (210 nebler as well)
3. 150 range (see above) (210 125)
4. No more Vertical shooting (210 as well) except maybe for the terror VT ability.

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Re: Arty suggestion(s)

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Nov 2015, 13:48

My final conclusions to this whole arty subject;
Shortly... It's true that I once agreed on the ammo HTs to become more useful, however that I am clearly not a friend of any cheaper kind of arty... Therefore I have included in my upcoming final list for the next patch to be posted soon at some point upon the topic "What is missing? 4950!" NOT a higher barrage cost reductions to be provided by the ammo HTs.. but generally a more expensive Priest barrage prices instead, also more expensive 88s arty barrage prices as they would be added to the Luft 88s too in a result. As well as more expensive RA doc 75mm HT arty barrage price. Nebels won't be touched at all; NO cheaper barrages or less range nor even the removal of the dismantle times for sure!

Just that the WH ammo HT should be able to deploy Galoith. Cheaper 105mm Sherman build cost and cheaper Maultier barrage price in order.. earlier available cheaper Calliope call in for a later available also cheaper 76 Jumbo on the other hand... That's all.


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