107mm mortar

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I have only 1 word, nerf this bullshit fortification, why the hell it have 100% accuracy? Always sniping out the entire squad even it stays on 1 point more than 5 secs, also incredible damage to tanks, recently my Tiger was immobolized by first shot of this shit, then 2 mortars completely destroyed it in 30 secs, every shot was made 100% directly into the tank.

The suggestion is simple, look at its accuracy, this is definately not normal and more annoying than old flaks 88, they at least couldnt shoot through the walls and required 75 ammo for switching ammo type, by the way, i think 88s are overnerfed, havent even seen them since patch is out, you had to reduce either HP or distance, both nerfs together made flaks almost useless, at least i ll never invest res into them since its not relible, they are beeing killed with a first priest shot right after showing up on the minimap.

[Warhawks97]

I have only 1 word, nerf this bullshit fortification, why the hell it have 100% accuracy? Always sniping out the entire squad even it stays on 1 point more than 5 secs, also incredible damage to tanks, recently my Tiger was immobolized by first shot of this shit, then 2 mortars completely destroyed it in 30 secs, every shot was made 100% directly into the tank.

The suggestion is simple, look at its accuracy, this is definately not normal and more annoying than old flaks 88, they at least couldnt shoot through the walls and required 75 ammo for switching ammo type, by the way, i think 88s are overnerfed, havent even seen them since patch is out, you had to reduce either HP or distance, both nerfs together made flaks almost useless, at least i ll never invest res into them since its not relible, they are beeing killed with a first priest shot right after showing up on the minimap.

Ive seen the 107 in all my games i played in new patch. All using it but at the same time its being killed a lot easier. The Terror nebler VT proved pretty effective now. Also schrecks and and nade bundles did well.

On a 3 vs 3 on 112 i faced two in players using 4 107 (at the same time, over the time more) if i saw correctly. I stayed back with my few inf squads and tank IV, holding the line. Later i attacked with hotchkiss, tank IV and used AT squads against it.


But one question. In which games does that happen? Mini 1 vs 1 maps? Playing on larger maps solves that. Last 3 vs 3 we did as tripple US against tripple WH at fields of engagment we didnt use a single of these as the map and the required flexibility was too high as for doing 107 camping. Inf player fought with HT´s that kept his inf mobile, inf and some shermans instead. The only emplacmets that made sense and which we used there was the qual cal 50 from AB doc


As for 88, the naked one has slightly more HP as an AT gun and takes half damage from arty than a pak. Its also a lot more resistant to fire than an naked howitzer.


idk, why should naked howitzers and AT guns die so much faster than naked 88´s? I havent seen naked 88´s yet but therefore in pretty much every game one naked. Those are still quite a pain for armor player and even RAF. But thats ok.

The naked is simply not a first line defensive unit anymore and its good. For that there are emplacments. I even figured out a bug. I did belive that only def doc emplaced 88 survives a long tom but thats not true. The Luft doc emplaced also does.
Ask shadow, terence or whoever. They played a game at Hürtgenwald and and Panzer-Lehr placed just one 88 on the hill. Even when the axis got pushed to base this 88 was still there on that hill. They fired endless barrages from AB doc 75 mm pack howitzers as well as long toms from inf doc but nothing. First at the very end, when 88 was decrewed and cut from friendly lines, allied could destroy it.

I think people got used that "having naked 88 with inf squad or AA tank next to it is easy win". Now they might be incapable of introducing the 88 in a greater mix of units.

And thats where i might see the problem. Its not the 88 as such in cost and performence. Its rather the cost of units arround it. 420 MP for luft pio, 400 for the naked 88 and further 400-550 MP for a supporting combat infantry squad. Make the Luft pio squad not airdropped and instead off map call in, reduce its cost to lets say 340 MP along with the other PE infantry suggestions that aim at reducing its cost and the 88 could be much better used combined with other forces and supporting those.


But players arent used with it. Maybe, if i would start a crusade again using and spamming emplaced 88´s this time which survive long tom salvos, people would come to me again blaming me for destroying the mod by showing "secret performences" and "ridiciulous strenght" that makes certain units appealing to spam and ruining the mod.

So yeah, dont put naked 88´s in first line anymore (and instead as a back up securing your retreat areas). I dont know how it was an "overnerf" when the emplaced has got more range in addition to its already "long tom survival feature" of which many dullards here arent aware even.

I havent got any problems with 88´s yet. Its not unbeatable for 5 out of 6 docs anymore but it does its job well against certain enemies. Armor doc can be locked by it completely afterall. That Pirests killing 88´s its nothing new. Priests killed even the "old" 88´s.


Also i had a 3 vs 3 at goodwood few weeks ago. It was one of the most extrem camp games. But at the end i won that against RE doc. I lost 2 88´s to the arty churchill but on long term Fw190 Bomber, henschels and Luft inf backed by an 88 has beaten RE.

[Terence's Mouth]

Put out that crap, nobody needs it only noobs and camp/bomb tacticers.
US inf doc got the heavier mortar plus mortar halftrack, its realy enough with autmap arty strike howitzer in 2 types and the arty sherman.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The 107 mortars aren't that problematic anymore in my humble opinion... Just that u need a crawling Demo Storm by default, cheaper Maultier barrage as well as slightly less expensive flak 88s on the other hand!

[Warhawks97]

The 107 mortars aren't that problematic anymore in my humble opinion... Just that u need a crawling Demo Storm by default, cheaper Maultier barrage as well as slightly less expensive flak 88s on the other hand!

what has 88 to do with 107? .... forgett the question. I wont understand it anway.


In every game i played ive seen that thing. I even played a game again at wolfheze against RE and inf emplacment spammer (Bofors and mortar pits) and my mates had been completely new. But one of the "newbies" used nebler flame salvo on their emplacment wall and launched an assault with grens and AT squads. The Other one (a very new player) used 210 flame salvos followed by Flamethrower hetzer while my grens secured its flank. The Flame hetzer managed to keep all emplacments in flames.

The after that one we stuck in the same situation. Inf, RE und Armor doc. Here my Hotchkiss proved very effective when used together. In that case i had a guy in my team again who never played BK before and who played luftwaffe. His mate, also very new, played BK doc but didnt really use infantry (he played more like def doc). At the end the Luftwaffes 20 mm flaks kept alive (thx to quick PE repairs when playing double PE). My IV/70 and AT squads knocked out every pershing easily. Even double pershing+scott assault got killed extremly fast by single IV/70 ambushed and AT squad.

At the end the hotchkiss managed to destroy all the emplacments (again 107 and RE emplacments). I only lost 3 hotchkiss all in all (2 to M10 achilles, 1 to their inf arty).


And when even completely new players can deal with extrem emplacments spam from a allied team i do think that others should also be able. And if you play 1 vs 1 then play larger maps and not maps where one mortar shoots from base to base.

[Krieger Blitzer]

U could always compare between the 88s and the 107mm mortar emplacements actually.. the 107 is probably even deadlier in fact!

[Armacalic]

U could always compare between the 88s and the 107mm mortar emplacements actually.. the 107 is probably even deadlier in fact!

Pass me something of what you're smoking. An overall all purpose emplacement, effective versus everything in game, compared to a mortar. A big mortar, but still a mortar. No. Simply no.

At the very least it's nice to see you've become more silly and incoherent than before your break, ought to make laugh more often again.

[Warhawks97]

U could always compare between the 88s and the 107mm mortar emplacements actually.. the 107 is probably even deadlier in fact!

they are completely different weapons. Omg... both are kind of support weapons (in that game, although the 88 can be deadly even when left alone), true. But an 88 alone can still force the enemie to wait for arty support. A 107 alone is a usless pice of shit.

Besides that their roles are completely different. Its like comparing horses with cows. But i guess you did ride cows already and milked horses right?


Maybe read the history of canons, howitzers and mortars. Right from their introduction till ww2 and nowdays. The basic principles kept the same over the centuries. Just their looking changed and their size (mortars got much smaller, howitzers bigger). And if a canon would have provided everything the armies did need then mortars and howitzers would have never been introduced. But that wasnt the case and so, after centuries of canon dominance, mortars and howitzers got added to those canons.

So how can you compare these two units so directly.


Its like saying the colour "red" is more "red" than the colour "yellow" is and that this is unfair and a fix required.


When i need vitamin C then i going to eat not only bananas but also apples. When i need a canon, i do build a canon, when i need a mortar i build a mortar. Which one is "better" is extremly depending on gamestyle, enemie style and units, enviroment etc etc etc.


And damn, if you think the Luft 88 isnt worth the cost then ask for adding the arty barrage. But the main issue i do see for the 88 is the cost of the units its supposed to support.

Sample why "107 mortar looks so much better than luft 88":

The 107 is supposed to support friendly units in a more defensive fight. So what gets inf doc and what gets Luft:

The inf doc:

engineers (to build 107): 180 MP (but starting unit)
107 Mortar: 425 MP
Ranger: 360 (later 295)
Sherman: 400 MP
M10: 320 MP

total cost: 1685 MP. Without engi production and cheaper ranger: 1440 MP

Luftwaffe:
420 MP for Luftwaffe pios
550 for emplaced 88 (400 for naked)
Wirbelwind: 500 MP
Pgrens (0 MP or 360)

Cost: 1470 MP or 1320

Add to that that US has later almost no upkeep. They also have the better flexibility and can quickly add other cheap units to it (Combat sappers, rifles, more range). The Luftwaffe can defend very well with 88 and Wirbelwind but they still have no option for a flexibel offensive gameplay.

Conclusion:
The 107 is better "embedded" in a full army than 88. The 107 is a good support for the defense while army can quickly switch from an offense into defense. To make the 107 deadly it needs maybe a sherman or HMG as support that pins enemie troops but worthless alone.

The 88 needs also very little support to stand all kinds of enemie attacks. Therefore the two or three units doesnt allow any offensive gameplay. Also upkeep will hurt you and a loss of just a single core unit quickly costs you 400 MP and more. For inf doc max 400 MP, usually even less.


As a conclusion i did offer changes for luft units. Sample: Luft pios wouldnt be airdropped and cost lowered to 340 or 360 MP. The Gren squad cost lowered to 320 MP, heavy assault squads lowered to 375 MP. Starting with 5 men and later upgraded to 6 men.

Calculating new:
Luft pios: 340 MP
Emplaced 88: 550 MP (naked 400)
heavy assault squad: 375 MP (5, later 6 men) or 450 MP for Reg 5 (dropping with MP 40 and upgraded with FG42 and stgs)
Wirbelwind: 500 MP
total cost: 1840 MP (reg 5 and emplaced 88) or 1615 with Heavy assault squad naked 88


The 88 is now a lot better "embedded" in an flexibel army that can switch better from offense into defense and back. They now get an additional unit for almost the same cost as before.

But i dont know why luft should have similiar capabilities than inf doc. Take as sample RE doc: Either you build and use the expensive tanks or you spam emplacment. Same goes for luft. Spam defense (20 mm, 88) but have bad offense due to lacking res, just as RE. You might say: "But inf doc can". Well, i can just repeat, Inf doc is push and defend. Thats comparable with RE just RE does that then with tanks. But both docs have hard times to take lost territory back so they defend as hard as possible as they have to. Luft can do lots of damage with single units, esspecially from ambushes. Their inf is able to deal with any kind of enemie units and can be only beaten by combined forces actually.


I tried to "compare" them in their "deadliness" and "usefulness" as good as i could althought its already stupid enough to make any kind of comparision between "Bananas" and "apples".

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Oh, what a crap you did here again. The point is simple, this mortar must not entirely snipe out the whole squads if they stop just for a few seconds. And why you always come up with this "cool" stories how you winning the games, it gives 0 credits to you, i also can tell 1000 stories about how good i am and how i ve won particular games using certain units, but thats have nothing in common with balance.

[Eldrak1911]

'Hawks is not boasting himself. He's just showing how a good teamplay is efficient in order to win a game. All mortars got a chance to destroy an entire team if the shell falls on the right place. The bigger the shell, the bigger the chance to destroy a squad.

I can understand that it could be annoying to see an entire squad getting destroyed like that, but, that's just a matter of luck.

[Warhawks97]

Afaik we once had this "sniper mortar" discussion in old forum. Wolf made tests and so far all mortars have the same scatter. Just the AoE is different and is depending on the calibre.

If you start walking right after mortar made a shot then the shot will hit the place the squad has been. If you keep straight walking in one right direction without making a turn or something then the mortar attempts to shoot where the squad is going to be afaik.

Ive recently lost 5 sprinting volksgrens in full sprint to a british mortar.

But my kill counts of 80 and 81 mm mortars are also quite impressive sometimes and those doing full whipes sometimes as well. On one game i did describe that new guy that used flame hetzers against emplacments also deployed two 120 mm mortars. They also sniped squads from time to time although they moved arround a bit.


I think the mortars performences arent really different. The only different is that inf doc has the 107 a lot more protected and able to embed them better in their army. The Axis at the other hand do have to pay more for their infantry which should protect it and have them less good embedded into their forces.

Furthermore a full squad whipe of a 240 MP rifle squad is less anoying than losing a 400 MP Pgren squad or 550 MP luft squad to a single mortar shell. But still both things happen equal often. But still a full instant loss of a 400-500 MP unit gets more attraction by a player(s) leading to greater complains as to lose a 200-300 MP unit and the unit that kills the squad is thus looking more dangerous or deadly although its not true.

But i could say stuff like that about other units as well. A single TH doc AT squad vet 1 squad ambushed a SP and killed it instantly. two schrecks, faust, schreck and finished with the hollowcharge thing. But its ok since the squad is supposed to do that and same behaves with mortars.


This is the actual difference, not the mortar itself i think.

[Krieger Blitzer]

U could always compare between the 88s and the 107mm mortar emplacements actually.. the 107 is probably even deadlier in fact!

Pass me something of what you're smoking. An overall all purpose emplacement, effective versus everything in game, compared to a mortar. A big mortar, but still a mortar. No. Simply no.

At the very least it's nice to see you've become more silly and incoherent than before your break, ought to make laugh more often again.

The topic is not about what I am smoking or how silly I could become... Clearly since the first post by the owner.. it's just about mainly the 107mm mortars and the 88s too! So, I am actually afraid u r that one who should really stop being drunk.

U took a break too as I can see btw; as u r here only when I am!! But sadly such a nasty kind of fans like u so far

[Armacalic]

U could always compare between the 88s and the 107mm mortar emplacements actually.. the 107 is probably even deadlier in fact!

Pass me something of what you're smoking. An overall all purpose emplacement, effective versus everything in game, compared to a mortar. A big mortar, but still a mortar. No. Simply no.

At the very least it's nice to see you've become more silly and incoherent than before your break, ought to make laugh more often again.

The topic is not about what I am smoking or how silly I could become... Clearly since the first post by the owner.. it's just about mainly the 107mm mortars and the 88s too! So, I am actually afraid u r that one who should really stop being drunk.

U took a break too as I can see btw; as u r here only when I am!! But sadly such a nasty kind of fans like u so far

I'll grab a fail flavored pay and smack you in the face with it, the first post mentions the current 88 as an afterthought, not as a direct comparison to the 107mm. You're the one who made the comparison from god knows where. So sorry, your defense looks flimsy, want to make another paper-thin rebuke?

Also, I'm here when anyone makes a easy to destroy argument that's clearly wrong. Which means you're the king of fail arguments, if only your rate of coherence was better than 3 out of 40 posts. You seemed a lot smarter last year.

[Terence's Mouth]

I didnt read all posts but i want add one post about the 107.
If Infantry isnt able to fight vs a mortar(7Men squad vs 3Men Mortar crew) then something is wrong.

=Frustrating and boring games
=Dont nerf, put it out.


If you want keep that crap thing: Make limit to 1, less aim, longer reload time.

[Eldrak1911]

The us 107mm mortar is fortified, that's explaining why a "simple" squad can't destroy him, but a single flamenade, or a lucky mortar shot, and the fortification is empty. The 4.2inch from cw is easy to kill since it has no fortification, just get close to it, and it's over.

[kwok]

I think terence is saying that the squad can't get up to the unsupported fortifcation and decrew reliably. The accuracy + power of the mortar would wipe an advancing squad before it cant get close enough to use a nade. I've had those moments. Not sure if I think it's a balance problem, but I can sympathize.

[Terence's Mouth]

@kwok yes that was what i said, ty.