Camp Bomb Tactics

[Terence's Mouth]

I create that topic because i dont want spend hours in reading the forum and hope its ok for you.

The biggest problem for BK mod are still the Camp and Bomb tactics.
Noobs without skill can win games by using this crap tactics in a way that makes the bkmod realy unintresting/unplayable.

Now my question is how you want solve this problem?

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

Well, agree... cqc spamm, unlimit good inf ... wich has somehow better Performance than stg.. Well free way for inf doc ! since kch etc is removed Atleast they were Counter whatever once i had 1v1 with Terence there was 3 man, 3 stg vs 2 man with 2 Thompson my stg shoot like 4 seconds on them no deaths or damage to them.. while my got killed in no time.. Defensiv games are impossible first off cause axis has very expensive Units, and somehow weaker even gebirgs in green cover died to running cqc Team.. somehow. Mod is ruined trough this overpowered inf doc. sorry but i think many People could agree with me no more fun!

[Krieger Blitzer]

And here is the example... Others abuse tank traps as well btw!

Me, Terence and Lehr as Axis vs Miesepeter and his mates.


Edit:-
I have always wondered.. why the Inf doc multi-role off map call in arty barrage costs only 150 ammo while the Terror Firestorm call in off map anti infantry rocket barrage costs 200 ammo on the other hand?? Firestorm should be costing just as much as SD2s actually or perhaps slightly more to 135 ammo exactly like this deadly RAF doc Typhoon bombing run though...

The same way; the Def doc off map arty barrage costs 200 ammo and it does almost no damage to anything in fact!!

The SE doc Sector Arty can't be called anymore at enemy territories which is fine, but why there is no any kind of slight cost reductions on the other hand??!! At least from 200 to 175 ammo I would say.

And I repeat... CQBs and Sabotage squads should no longer have the capability to spawn in buildings that are out of the player's view range!
The Demo Storm unit has to crawl since the beginning without being in need for any CP unlocks.

Both the Inf doc 76 AT gun emplacements as well as the 17P emplacements should be costing more in fuel, only 20 is quite too cheap.. isn't it? Specifically for the CW.. as they could collect such a massive quantity of fuel income after the upgrades and also when the trucks are set on the points too.

Tank traps has to be for free but with a greatly less amount of HP... I guess that's all what I think for now!!

[Panzer-Lehr-Division]

And somehow, they all spamm cqc and yet has like unlimit mp to make tons of other Infanterie. but yea. and they are incredible strong such as commandos just quitting there glider.. can even kill vet 4 Units in no time!

[Warhawks97]

The biggest problem for BK mod are still the Camp and Bomb tactics.
Now my question is how you want solve this problem?

I gave enough samples.... nobody ever cared or even read what i said.

Well, agree... cqc spamm, unlimit good inf ... wich has somehow better Performance than stg.. Well free way for inf doc ! since kch etc is removed Atleast they were Counter whatever once i had 1v1 with Terence there was 3 man, 3 stg vs 2 man with 2 Thompson my stg shoot like 4 seconds on them no deaths or damage to them.. while my got killed in no time.. Defensiv games are impossible first off cause axis has very expensive Units, and somehow weaker even gebirgs in green cover died to running cqc Team.. somehow. Mod is ruined trough this overpowered inf doc. sorry but i think many People could agree with me no more fun!

Hmmm. Camp, bomb tactics and suddenly CQC´s? That might happen in very late game but that requires almost entire inf doc tec unlock. Rangers become good with vet training, cheap after upgrade and emplacments need again another tree and arty again another. Players who go early on for cqc´s have often nothing else. They have some good moments with them but thats it. They cant stand one stronger attack. Emplacment+cqc and arty spam is only possible with double inf doc so far.


As for PE: Sukin gave a sample how to solve the build cost issue. The prob with luft inf is that like 20-30% of the build cost are due to the standard equipemt. Other inf is cheaper but requires CP unlocks or ammo to get more deadly weapons. Luft inf doesnt pay ammo for the best infantry weapons in game but therefore a high MP cost. Dropping MP cost cant work out well as they would come quite early with the ultimate weapons while counter is hardly able at this time. Later on the balance is given so far and luft inf starts suffering more and more and more against combined enemie arms while luft hardly gets any "combined arms" as everything they have cost a lot of MP.

Here Sukin and i made also suggestions. Dropping with less goot standard equipment, thus reducing MP drop/build cost. Later weapons are upgradable for fair cost. That wouldnt make them cheap with best weapons dominating the mid and early stage but in late game the reduced MP drop cost would make them more competetive.


Also i gave a smaple how to reduce the issue of high PE build cost that makes playing with combined arms hard. The squad size would drop to 5 men as standard, build cost thus reduced (e.g 375 MP for heavy assault squad or 380 instead of 435 and so on). Later after squad size upgrade the squads would be 6 men strong but still having low build cost. That way it would become a bit easier as PE to play with combined arms.


But well, nobody will probably consider this suggestions which would solve issues.

Also Kch..... KCH had the same problem actually as luft has, even more. The KCH had been absolut dominating in the mid stage but when you couldnt kill your enemie at that time the KCH got killed by snipers and scotts. So KcH had been everything but a "good encounter" to "this". Any support was hard to get due to the MP bleedout in later stage.

Side info: Cost wise the axis inf cost dropped a lot in build in reinfoce cost generally while allied got increased on some parts. The ultimate commando spam in late game of older BK versions doesnt exist anymore since reinforce cost got increased from 32-38 which actually makes them one of the most expensive infantry.

Same for CQC, back in days reinforce cost of 18 (pios cost 15, volks 22) increased to 36 or more. The cqc and infiltration rangers again belong to the most expensive inf, just luft is a bit more expensive (even equal in reinforce cost).

[Warhawks97]

I have always wondered.. why the Inf doc multi-role off map call in arty barrage costs only 150 ammo while the Terror Firestorm call in off map anti infantry rocket barrage costs 200 ammo on the other hand?? Firestorm should be costing just as much as SD2s actually or perhaps slightly more to 135 ammo exactly like this deadly RAF doc Typhoon bombing run though...

The same way; the Def doc off map arty barrage costs 200 ammo and it does almost no damage to anything in fact!!

The SE doc Sector Arty can't be called anymore at enemy territories which is fine, but why there is no any kind of slight cost reductions on the other hand??!! At least from 200 to 175 ammo I would say.

And I repeat... CQBs and Sabotage squads should no longer have the capability to spawn in buildings that are out of the player's view range!
The Demo Storm unit has to crawl since the beginning without being in need for any CP unlocks.

Both the Inf doc 76 AT gun emplacements as well as the 17P emplacements should be costing more in fuel, only 20 is quite too cheap.. isn't it? Specifically for the CW.. as they could collect such a massive quantity of fuel income after the upgrades and also when the trucks are set on the points too.

Tank traps has to be for free but with a greatly less amount of HP... I guess that's all what I think for now!!

The firestorm could be 175 ammo. But its high density of strikes, burning ground and quick strikes makes it absolutely deadly to inf, esspecially when used on spawns. The US one is more multirole but therefore it needs sometimes luck to hit something critical. Often enough ive seen mortar HT´s not moving at all getting just damaged because the strikes came in so bad.

Also Terror cant be compared one to one with inf doc. Both have pros and cons and so is it also with abilties.


The sector arty as more or less no cooldown and snipes on units that are entering the sector. Together with res trade using no other ammo you can use it almost nonstop (which i sometimes did). And its not the goal to keep an sector nonstop affected by sector arty.


I can agree on spawns on houses. The house should be in visible range and not in the for of war. For such missions we have Paradropped infantry.

Tank traps also. Maybe easier destroyable. idk what they need atm but one explosive or satchel should destroy them. About removing MP cost i am not sure. It might end in a huge abuse. But a drop maybe to 15 MP in return for some less HP.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Briefly:

-KCH removal only made terror doc stronger, I consider grens as best inf in game honestly, they have everything: Stg 44 for free, cheap price, cheap reinforcement, low reinforcement time, fire nades which giving a huge advantage, faster vet up system than paratroopers, VT, and even schreck with MG42.

- The balance has changed because of M1 buff, especially because of this infantry doc feels so strong now, it gets rifles almost for nothing and they still can do nice damage to any kinds of German infantry, moreover in early game they are absolutely dominating, you need only get to mid distance, then just look at how m3 and m1 will shred volks or pzgrens in a blink of an eye. Actually, USA is the most aggressive faction at the beginning of a game, I usually succeed to crash my enemies extremely fast only with Jeep + double rifles combo, they only thing which can prevent it is PE scout car. At the same time as Axis I mostly stay defensively during the game opening, because you only can afford long range battle with USA infantry + Jeep have such a shitload of HP, sometimes it's just trolling driving between your troops with K98. Immortal crew of 37mm gun is also annoying as fuck, from long distance inf troops can't clear them out, get closer - catch a canister shot.

- I support Hawks idea about PE infantry troops, it will give them better chances in mid-late game, you will be able to purchase 6th man upgrade quite early, the negative side is not critical, at the opening stage PE more rely on their vehicles anyways. Also nice that he brought my idea about Luft, I really think bk mod need it, currently Luft gameplay is quite frustrating, after 25-30 minutes situation usually comes into a 3vs1 battle. Typical example against inf doc: 30th game minute, inf have 4 rifles, Rangers, sniper, quadcal, some emplacements, Luft - have 2 paratroopers squads, pak, and maybe mortar, that's definitely impossible to make a breakthrough with such army for sure. The idea of "very powerful but expensive unit" is the worst enemy of gebirgs and reg.5, yeah they can annihilate some rifles squad in seconds, but it will not help you to win a game. Also their tactic and offensive options are rather poor, I will never dare to run at ambushed 37mm pak with Luft units ( canister shot, - 4 men, - 200 mp, - 30 secs for reinforcement) but will do it with no doubts playing as terror grens or bk storms.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Well, Hawks' idea about the PE units with a decreased squad size of 5 men and a price reduction on the other hand isn't too bad.. also combined with Sukin's idea about the Luft inf being equipped with less superior weapons by default while also reducing their cost; as that the current standard weaponry equipment would become only upgrade-able then such as the FG42s for example... Both are very fine ideas I would say! But I am afraid it might not happen :\

And shortly what Sukin just said, is absolutely true btw.

KCH removal was a good thing to be honest, I could actually agree with this as well.

Now regarding the Firestorm rocket barrage.. this thing can't cost more than 140 ammo if u would ask me... And not to mention about the Def doc heavy rocket barrage which is in actuality not heavy at all however that yet it's costing 200 ammo somehow!!

I would agree a cost drop for tank traps in a result of applying some less HP too.

[kwok]

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=736

[Warhawks97]

Kwok, i know playing larger maps makes sense. But honestly whats the point there of luft doc? I dont think it would change that much regarding luftwaffe inf. In fact they would walk a long time there to reach any point while being strafed and harassed by vehicles and shermans. The flexibility is even better with TH doc there. Fast tank IV´s combined with Halftrack transporters with inf inside. Maybe i gotta test luft doc on larger maps to check it out there though.

@Tiger: Terror has maybe not the best cost effective off map but i dont think its really necessary. Its one of the best inf docs in game and many players dont purchase any weapon with their inf. They use the stg at default upgrade and AT squads, picking up schrecks later maybe. Then a VT for 35 ammo and the inf generally very cost effective. Cheap but able to match with every elite inf squad (only late game storms with vet are better).

About the M1. Actually the mid distances became potentially deadly. But from 35-60 the K98 is afterall the better one although M1 got slightly better there (but really only slightly). It kills at middle distances and thats what the M1 is supposed to do.


As WE i dont build pak anymore. The new schwimm is quite good and can stand quite an ammount of bullets. I put it currently behind my double volks which again are behind my quickly set up sandbags. That way Jeep cant kill them and pak has time to come without losing too much ground. And the schwimm keeps the rifles at distance and the jeep on distance (when jeep gets close the schwimm kills it quite fast). After that i am trying to get out the 81 mm mortar as fast as possible and then puma followed by schreck squad or 50 mm. From that moment on i do feel save at first, preparing my next steps forward.

Still it depends a bit what my mates bring up and who my opponent is.

[kwok]

I've played as luft on large maps. The pros of having luft is the fact that they can drop and reinforce from the front independent of halftrack/logistical elements of the game. Drop a retreat point and suddenly they become extremely mobile, aggressive, and capable of devastating waves and waves of attacks. Strafe runs can be avoided with spaces or even luft pio AA structures. Ground can be held with emplacements and SD2's. Vehicles can be beaten back by mobile armored cars with paks (I forgot the name, but it's the one with 75mm), ambushes, or 88's. The halftracks with inf inside can be caught with back line paks then finished off by devastating luft infantry. Sometimes the slightest adjustment to formation is enough to "balance" the game. Worst case, you have to rely on a teammate to cover your deficiencies. OH NO! It's almost as if this mod was designed to be balanced for teamwork.

Luft has pros and cons. Like most allied docs and all other PE docs, it is specialized so it can't do everything. But it does things that other docs can't. Luft can operate on so little resources and be extremely strong with spare resources to spend. This is a HUGE benefit compared to other docs like SE which is hyper dependent on MU, or TH which is hyper dependent on FU.

I've played as luft in 1v1's on large maps a few times. It's fun. Of course, I chose luft in response to AB doc. So I knew I was less likely to be harassed by vehicles. I've even quick chosen it against an armor doc because I held the lead and wanted to keep the pressure on him, being able to lock his vehicles into funnels using 88's then ambushing the tanks every push they made. It's all situational. Just because it can't perform in one situation, doesn't mean it's obsolete.

[kwok]

From my experience so far with large maps, I've either had really really good games where all players felt satisfied with the outcome. OR really short games with inexperienced players that don't bother trying to adapt, break out of their formula styles, and complain about balance issues saying something like "big maps are balanced for axis/allies" but then getting swept when the inverse settings are played.

I've used all but RA docs on large maps. But, I just don't like RA. It's really really boring. Even SE has some fun units like the flame hetzer, fire grenades, etc. (I hardly use the arty in SE doc. It's no fun). But, I know someone who used SE for its arty which is basically like RA. FUCK YOU BABYSEAL AND YOUR DAMN 210 NEBEL.

[Terence's Mouth]

It was more a question to the developers, i wanted to know if they got a plan or thought about it yet.

[kwok]

What if smoke drops for arty and off maps came back? That'll make things really interesting I bet. You will see incoming arty, you can dodge, force tougher decision making on arty call ins.
Maybe required sight for on-map arty to "call it in" instead of blank fire into fow. That'd be intense.

[Warhawks97]

Nah, no smoke on off map arty. Thats vcoh style. It got removed by purpose but in return cooldowns are much higher than in vcoh.

On map arty only in spotted areas is happen in spearhead mod.

The problem i see here that it would end up in "reccon wars". Very long ranged units (88, stuhs, paks etc) staying far back shooting from out of the fog of war. In front of that own spotters and anti spotter units. At the end the defenders would have nothing else to do than achieving "recon superiority". The attackers firstly would have to kill all enemie anti recon units and recons. Then deploying own recons close enough to see the enemie long ranged defense.

Also look at the tactically aspects. There might be a double line defense. In first line are infantry (skirmishers), light and medium paks and stuff. But those could be overruned with thicker armored tanks. The main problem that requires arty is the second line defense using long ranged powerfull anti tank weapons, AA tanks and stuff. But unless you crack that one you cant get over the first line defense. Means the far back deployed main defense line need to be cracked by arty but cant get cracked unless you have launched an assault on the first line defense already. But before your arty does heavy punishment on the main defense line you have lost all units against that main defense line by overruning (or in the attempt to overrun) the first line defense which then is faster rebuild as you can rebuild new offensive forces.

Spearhead mod here has simply a completely different gameplay system in every aspect.

[drivebyhobo]

I create that topic because i dont want spend hours in reading the forum and hope its ok for you.

The biggest problem for BK mod are still the Camp and Bomb tactics.
Noobs without skill can win games by using this crap tactics in a way that makes the bkmod realy unintresting/unplayable.

Now my question is how you want solve this problem?

It's not a problem. You think the only valid strategy is brute force. If you knew anything about RTS faction design then you'd know that one of the techniques of balanced faction design is to allow alternative win strategies beyond brute force.

[Terence's Mouth]

That the camp/bomb/noob tactics are so effective is the problem im talking about.

[Warhawks97]

I dont know if its soo easy. In old versions it was but for axis. The US got better in that since they got normal HMG nests (instead vcoh tent with vcoh weapon stats etc) but there was no reason they shouldnt be able to have a single HMG nest.

Generally the limited perma HMG´s, reduced 107 mortar pit HP, the RE doc that now builds more often tanks rather than emplacments, changed 88, stgs for grens and cheaper cost for them, reworked VT´s and other things did reduce the "easiness" of "camp/bomb/nobb tactic".

I honestly dont want to remember the times even when we have got like 7 bunkers with perma HMG´s, 2 88´s and stupas. Thats was camping nightmare. Just player did use it less often maybe due to some "rules" maybe.


As for axis they can afterall defend their line very good. Especially TH doc can hold lines against armor very long which even makes some fun from time to time.
Axis generally can still stand quite a long time with a few territories defending those hard over a long time untill stating their offense. But that defense can nowdays be cracked by RE doc unlike it was in old times.
Allied and especially inf doc is currently not much different from older times. I mean i played inf and RE doc most of the time in my first clan and I or we as clan often used defenses to siege axis base. Just back in days we did that with RE doc while Inf got arty. Nowdays RE and others going more offense and inf stays more back as back up siegeing with emplacments while arty is provided "by all a bit". The roles did change a bit but overall the used strategy didnt change much for me. Grabbing ground in the mid stage as much as possible with allied, then defend it and let axis bleedout instead rushing for their base.

What has a lot more changed is the opening game. Once it couldnt be really won with allied. Those had hard times to get into game even and to take enough ground to defend those and to bleedout axis. That was because the opening game was very poor with allied. Usless Boys-AT, jeeps etc. Thus they often took not enough ground and didnt achieve any tactical initiative and thus emplacment spam without map domination was usless.

Today allied are able to get a much better start. They do have a much better chance to get tactical initiative in the earlier stage and map domintation and so the basics are earlier given to use emplacments.

So not emplacments or their efficency has changed much (actually got less effective).
Just spamming emplacments as allied without doing a soft push at the same time or without having just a single important fuel (or ammo) point is usless. And in old Bk versions only pretty good allied players had a chance in a normal game to get those. Nowdays its more even between the factions (when skill is comparable) to win the early stage and thus the basics for emplacment use as allied are achieved easier and even possible for the normal players.



But allied emplacment spam was and is afterall usefull to defend critical parts and siege axis and to bleed them out. But usefull when taking no important ground or any fost push/skrimishing at the same time.
And axis are afterall strong in defending few critical map areas, just they got a new enemie: RE while once only RA was really capable to do something (and maybe inf with double 105 sherman).

[kwok]

I dunno... on small maps I've been going arty doc (inf, def, RA, se) every time and winning with a kdr of like 100:3. I really don't think this "balance issue" can be fixed without an entire rework of the core aspects of the game because it's a game that really doesn't seem to fit "small maps". It's like the American idiom "this town ain't big enough for the both of us" quite literally. It is just way too easy to defend a small area and blind fire into the fog of war on a small map. Changing unit values and costs won't solve this problem. Only changing ranges and core functionalities of units will make camping "un-optimizable", which would basically bring us back to some variation of vcoh rather than BKmod. This is just what I think though from my limited experience. I've nearly quit small maps except every now and then just to "show people" what shit it is. After every small map game, I've had both sides (winning and losing) complain about the game and you know what I say every time? "Hey. You chose the map. I told you so."

[Warhawks97]

I dunno... on small maps I've been going arty doc (inf, def, RA, se) every time and winning with a kdr of like 100:3. I really don't think this "balance issue" can be fixed without an entire rework of the core aspects of the game because it's a game that really doesn't seem to fit "small maps". It's like the American idiom "this town ain't big enough for the both of us" quite literally. It is just way too easy to defend a small area and blind fire into the fog of war on a small map. Changing unit values and costs won't solve this problem. Only changing ranges and core functionalities of units will make camping "un-optimizable", which would basically bring us back to some variation of vcoh rather than BKmod. This is just what I think though from my limited experience. I've nearly quit small maps except every now and then just to "show people" what shit it is. After every small map game, I've had both sides (winning and losing) complain about the game and you know what I say every time? "Hey. You chose the map. I told you so."

+1 Thinking same. What ive been trying in the past was to reduce this "camp tactics" by changing unit cost-efficency, especially between defensive weapon high cost efficecny and the offensive units. Actually the way vcoh avoids such camp tactics. And we had quite a lot success. We changed for example AT gun costs and efficency, reduced vehicle costs (at least some) etc. And thats what i am aiming for since a long time. I do think one reason why camp/bomb was or is so widely spread among players is mainly because of the cost of defensive weapons and arty units. For a long time it was for example a lot more appealing to spend 230 MP for a 50 mm pak and then 300 MP for an arty unit (nebler) rather than spend something into a inf squad or vehicle which cost 300-400 MP and more and which might get destroyed during a risky offense by an enemie defensive unit that cost less than half of the cost you spend.

generally i think camp/bomb tactics would become less frequently used when for example medium paks and and vehicles would cost arround the same MP, just vehicles fuel. That way the player which risked units in offensives in order to take important points (fuel) would be awarded in so far that he could get out vehicles just as cheap as opponent pays for a medium pak for example since fuel cost wouldnt be a huge problem anymore (coz he took the points) for him. But still vehicles would cost more than paks due to fuel cost but not more or not much more MP.

Also that way "larger formation tactics" to outflank and overrole enemie smaller defenses would become more appealing instead trenching in and start bombing opponents non stop once a point is taken.



Thats actually how vcoh prevents too strong camping but also vcoh 2 and coh 2 spearhead mod is doing it.

In my opinion a lot has simply to do with cost efficencies between units: Arty units, defensive and offensive. With defensive weapons we made good steps with changing pak cost (and scout car suppression radius).

Two or three things i would aim for currently:
1. Vehicle cost efficencies. As i said, quite many are a way overpriced. Mostly MP but also in fuel cost sometimes. For example the PE HT with 75 mm that replaces the one with 37 mm. While the 37 is quite usefull as it comes early but also with low MP cost (280 MP) the 75 comes very late (after upgrade of logistic company and costly in MP and fuel).
For vehicles in general i would say a the highest MP cost should be arround 300-320 (maximum 350 MP) MP. Here i think only the Axis 234 versions (especially 1,3,4) are worth these cost and maybe the M16 and M15A1 HT´s. But most others could be easily as low as 280 MP-300 MP with fuel costs arround 20, max 30.
2. For infantry i would aim for a max cost of 350 MP for normal main infantry. Elites 400-450 MP. Check also my suggestion for PE inf which aims in that direction.
3. For arty i think that some are coming quite early for low cost but good damage against most targets. Here cost increases might help along with increased damage against emplacments. That way arty wouldnt be used that often against single infantry units etc due to cost inefficency (result of changed inf cost and arty unit cost) but therefore definetly worth to be used against emplacments. ATM "lighter" arty is more often used against soft targets (inf squads etc) as against emplacments. But the soft targets are those which are essential for the dynamics. So some units (nebler 150 mm, 105 howitzers in particular) could be a bit more expensive (375 MP for nebler) and in return increased damage against emplacments would make them less worthy to be used against single infantry units or paks but therefore very usefull in destroying emplacments.


But thats would you said: "Only changing ranges and core functionalities of units will make camping "un-optimizable", which would basically bring us back to some variation of vcoh rather than BKmod."

[kwok]

Cost efficiency would need to go to extremes though and will take a long time to find JUST THE RIGHT balance because just of how fragile the entire game balance is. Why not just take the path of least resistance and safety by just playing on bigger maps? I'm thinking of just going through some maps, editing them, and reuploading a "big map pack" for people to test out. I'm just really really busy right now.

[Terence's Mouth]

Always that comments about, use this play that.
So i want write a comment about the old times again here
In Old times all maps worked fine, even halfaya pass 4vs4.
To solve a problem you have to solve the problem, not live with it in the best way you can.

[kwok]

You mean the days when scotts and stuh's hit 100%? The days when KCH ran free without consequence like school girls through a flowery meadow? The days when the only doc brits played was royal artillery unless you were shadow? The days were terror doc was basically just KCH, KT, and nebels? The days when the game was more about optimized formulas over strategy and thought? The days when the only players were veterans because noobs were absolutely squashed because they didn't have the right "formula"? I remember those days. I remember the only reason I got to where I was today was because one player actually showed me how to play. Old times the maps didn't work fine, it was a game of optimization and rng, and they worked fine for axis because it hardly took any skill for axis to win. We go back to old times, I can guarantee it won't be how you remembered it. The only reason why arty was not so prevalent in the old times is because particular units were OP as fuck because they were "riskless" and basically controlled the entire game easily which basically takes away the "strategy" part of the game. Arty wasn't optimized back in the old days because OP units were. Now that units are toned down a bit to be treated as... well... units/tools rather than game-winning machines, people have reverted to arty because they are the new "riskless" strategy.
This game revolves around RNG, which means the "best" style of play that wins a majority of games is one that is best hedged against bad luck/risk. The best way to hedge against it is by doing riskless "tactics" like artying, or in the old times: making fucking kch or butterfly bomb spam or something shitty like that. You will almost never take away the riskless aspect of arty because it is literally what arty is designed for. The best solution is to negate the benefits of it. If you REALLY want to make a unit stat/balancing adjustment to arty instead of just playing larger maps (which I have been doing excellently on in terms of balance) then you need to add a risk aspect to arty. For example, make it so that arty either can't shoot as far so that you add "risk" by building them closer to the front lines. As of now, it doesn't really matter how much you make changes to arty, unless you go to extreme means like adding 200mu cost to arty, because small maps are too crowded and allows riskless bombing.

[Warhawks97]

You mean the days when scotts and stuh's hit 100%? The days when KCH ran free without consequence like school girls through a flowery meadow? The days when the only doc brits played was royal artillery unless you were shadow? The days were terror doc was basically just KCH, KT, and nebels? The days when the game was more about optimized formulas over strategy and thought? The days when the only players were veterans because noobs were absolutely squashed because they didn't have the right "formula"? I remember those days. I remember the only reason I got to where I was today was because one player actually showed me how to play. Old times the maps didn't work fine, it was a game of optimization and rng, and they worked fine for axis because it hardly took any skill for axis to win. We go back to old times, I can guarantee it won't be how you remembered it. The only reason why arty was not so prevalent in the old times is because particular units were OP as fuck because they were "riskless" and basically controlled the entire game easily which basically takes away the "strategy" part of the game. Arty wasn't optimized back in the old days because OP units were. Now that units are toned down a bit to be treated as... well... units/tools rather than game-winning machines, people have reverted to arty because they are the new "riskless" strategy.
This game revolves around RNG, which means the "best" style of play that wins a majority of games is one that is best hedged against bad luck/risk. The best way to hedge against it is by doing riskless "tactics" like artying, or in the old times: making fucking kch or butterfly bomb spam or something shitty like that. You will almost never take away the riskless aspect of arty because it is literally what arty is designed for. The best solution is to negate the benefits of it. If you REALLY want to make a unit stat/balancing adjustment to arty instead of just playing larger maps (which I have been doing excellently on in terms of balance) then you need to add a risk aspect to arty. For example, make it so that arty either can't shoot as far so that you add "risk" by building them closer to the front lines. As of now, it doesn't really matter how much you make changes to arty, unless you go to extreme means like adding 200mu cost to arty, because small maps are too crowded and allows riskless bombing.

if it wouldnt be so much cheaper to build an arty unit+making two salvos as to build the units that are most likely to be supposed as "core units" with "standard equipment" then i think things would change. But as long as arty is generally so cheao and cheaper as so called "core units" then it will never change. Take a sample. Building a maultier and spending 85 ammo to kill an AT gun (+ units arround maybe) is less risky and at first much cheaper as to get a gren or storm unit equipped with standard equipment of 125 ammo (schreck and stg) and additional grenade use of 25-50 ammo to kill a pak entirely.

[kwok]

^exactly what I mean but put into specific exemplified terms. Well said, hawks. Like I said, unless you go to extremes like adding 200mu per barrage, making arty cost 300 more MP/Fu or whatever or shortening range to pay for a riskless alternative then it won't be solved.