Mines

[Warhawks97]

Thx a lot.

But what are multipurpose mines now?

SE vehicle mine drop? M1A1? Greyhound mines?

[MarKr]

Yes, mines that are layed by Greyhound and HTs, then M1A1 (US WSC upgrade) usable by US engineers and Rifles in Infantry doc after upgrade and for CW it is Hawkins mine.

[kwok]

So excited. Praise be markr.

[XAHTEP39]

PE has sturmpioneers (by the way, limited by 2 squads), but they didn`t have any mines in Luft and TH doctrines (AP and/or AT), SE doc Sturmpioneers has Stockmine 43, although PGrens in SE has Stockmine 43 also.
For example, US/CW/WH engineers/sappers/pioneers has ability to plant various AP/AT mine always in all doctrines.
Therefore Luft has only "Schutzemine 42" by "call-in" Gebirds (is it AP or multipurpose mine?) , TH has only AT mines by PGrens...

What is the status and cost of Gebirgsjäger`s mine - Schutzemine 42, AP or multipurpose?
What is the status and cost of Schim mine (in SE), AP or multipurpose?
WH and PE has two common types of AP mines: Stockmine 43 and S.Mine 35 (Def-doc & SE); Is it damage and cost differences between this? So S.Mine 35 (spreng-mine) should to be a more deadly and expensive little bit (cost between AP and Multipurpose, S.Mine is a "heavy" AP-mine but not a multipurpose mine).

What is type of multipurpose mines?
I know only one mine - Hawkins No.75 mk.II , it is heavy AP mine, but only anti-vehicle mine (HTs, trucks), becouse there is only 680 g of explosions.
So I suggest:
- to make all "multipurpose" mines (by Greyhounds, HTs, Staghounds , etc) as AT-mines (not detected infantry),
- in this case, to reduce cost of all AT-mines (planted by inf or by light vehicles) to 35 Ammo,
- exclusive "multipurpose" mine will be CW Hawkins No.75 mk.II - 20...25 Ammo,
- damage of mines (AP,AT,Hawkins) will be former (as Markr post: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=873#p9991) .

[Panzerblitz1]

You are tripple posting here... edit your first post and remove the other plz.

[XAHTEP39]

Different months of posts... It is not my fault, that there is no answers on my previous posts.

[Panzerblitz1]

you can Edit you first post to be more complete.

[XAHTEP39]

you can Edit you first post to be more complete.

As users understand that there was a change and read edition ? Topic will be still on the bottom in this case.

[Panzerblitz1]

No problem.

[XAHTEP39]

Hmm, i don`t understand.

What`s about last on-topic post: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=873&p=15084#p10165
Espicially about 3rd part ?

[MarKr]

OK, now I am lost in this...what exactely is the problem with mines? As far as I know nobody complained about mines since the changes about laying them were introduced...

[XAHTEP39]

Yes, I greeting last changes of mines too.
But I note, that multipurpose mines are remnant of vCoH, like as V-1 rocket. V-1 rocket will be replaced (as rewarded) on SturmTiger.
Therefore I remember about vCoH multiporpose mines. Will be any changes with multipurpose mines in future?

[MarKr]

I don't see a reason to do that. Now we have three types of mines:
1) anti-infantry = can by triggered by anything but are only effective against infantry; the lowest cost
2) multi-purpose = can be triggered by anything, deal low damage to heavy units (usually detrack), deal quite high damage to light vehicles, deadly against infantry; cost more than infantry but less than anti-tank
3) anti-tank = can only be triggred by vehicles, deal moderate damage to heavy tanks (detrack them too), high damage to medium tanks and outright destroy light vehicles; most expensive
Not every doctrine has access to all types so further changes in this system would require inspecting units and deciding who gets what etc.
I think that the current system is sufficient and doesn't need changes.

[XAHTEP39]

Main reason - multipurpose mines are remnant of vCoH (there is no multipurpose mines in army).
1) AP-mine - save current set (15 Ammo);
2) All Multipurpose except Hawkins No.75 mk.II - make as AT-mine;
3) AT-mine - save current set + add multipurpose as AT-mines (by Greyhounds, HTs, Staghounds , etc), cost reduce to 30 Ammo.

[MarKr]

Perhaps in real army but this is no big deal. People usually don't use mines much. It would also bring problems - currently multipurpose are unlocked by upgrades or require no unlock while AT mines always require unlock in command tree. So either all current multipurpose would need unlock or current AT would need to NOT require unlock -> what would replace the unlocks in command trees? (AT mines unlocks are in 4 doctrines - Armor, RE, Def and TH - all would need some replacement).
Simply said it would require a lot of time and changes for something that is not really a problem.

[kwok]

I've seen mines used more, markr. I don't believe change is needed for the sake of balance. But if it adds more fun in some way without disturbing balance, would you be open to change?

[MarKr]

Well, maybe but really - why? How will it be more fun to scrap all multipurpose mines and make them AT? I can see that current AT can stay and simply be "strong AT" while multipurpose would only change to not be triggered by infantry...that could work, but the question still stands - how will that be more fun compared to what we have now?

[kwok]

Eh, I don't really know. I like things how they are, just trying to suggest if XAHTEP39 has a way of arguing alternatively.

[XAHTEP39]

Good, continue to discuss.
Firstly, what unit can to plant multipurpose mines currently ?
- US M8 Greyhound,
- CW Staghound (iirc),
- PE Ammo Halftrack,
- PE-SE all light vehicles after CP-update "mine-layers",
- anything else, remind me ?

EDIT:
- US Inf-doc riflemens,
- CW Sappers.

[MarKr]

Any mine that costs more than 15 and less than 45 ammo is multipurpose.
For US it is also engineers after upgrade - in infantry doctrine Riflemen too. CW - Sappers

[XAHTEP39]

Any mine that costs more than 15 and less than 45 ammo is multipurpose.

I know it.

For US it is also engineers after upgrade - in infantry doctrine Riflemen too. CW - Sappers

Any multipuprpose mines in WH ?

[MarKr]

don't think so...unless there are some dropped from HTs

[XAHTEP39]

Maybe, I don`t remember WH HTs mine layers...

Finally:
- AT-mines planted by infantry has Def-doc (pioneers) , Armor-doc (engeneers) , TH (PGrens, Stormtroopers iirc) , RE (Sappers iirc) - it is defend-orient or anti-tank-orient doctrines (available to make minefield be "shift-click" option).
- Only two infantry units have "wrong" multipurpose mines; suggest to scrap multipurpose mines of infantry and make them AP (for US engineers and riflemens in not Armor doc).
- Hawkins No.75 mk.II "true" multipurpose mine of CW Sappers (iirc) should to save.
- Multipurpose mines of light vehicles replace to AT-mine; this light vehicles (US Greyhound, CW Staghound, PE ammo-HT and any else) are present in all not defend-orient and not anti-tank-orient doctrines, therefore they would put AT-mine but without "shift+click" option (it is "ability" with little cooldown).

P.S. Mine as weapon is very perfective and widespread in German army before WW2 and during WW2.
Only USSR mines is competitive with Axis mines. But they is developed during defense of early period of the Great Patriotic War (GPW in english ?? )
US and CW didn`t have good mines before WW2, and only after middle of WW2 (CW in Africa earlier) they developed some good AP&AT mines. But they are not so widespread at front (Allies in the offensive) , and AT-mines (M1A1 and G.S. Mk.V) not so high-powered as german AT-mines.
Why ? After WW1 Germans had restrictions of "Versailles-peace". But mines are not resticted, therefore they developed very widespread, high-powered, reliable AP&AT mines. And use different mines throughout the war actively.
Based on this,
- suggest to add AP-mine (Stockmine 43 or S.Mine 35/44 or Schutzemine 42) to PE Sturmpioneers (and probably to PGrens too) in Luft and TH doctrines (SE has Stockmine 43 by PGrens and Sturmpioneers) .

[MarKr]

I am sorry but I don't really want to remove/add/change anything about mines especially when there is nothing wrong with them from the gameplay point of view. Right now we have mines that only damage infantry, mines that can be triggered by infantry and vehicles and mines that can only be triggered by vehicles. Which is perhaps not 100% historically accurate but I think it is more fun because you can use the multipurpose mines where you expect any type of enemy movement, with the changes you propose you would always need to choose between something that only damages infantry or something that only damages vehicles. Given the fact that enemy needs to get very close to the mine to trigger it, the use of mines is limited already and if players need to decide whether to use infantry or AT mines it will probably result in choosing neither.

So from my side, I am for keeping the system as it is. If there was a gameplay problem/reason then fine but this really is a lot of work for pretty much no gain.

[XAHTEP39]

Okey, Markr, i understand point about multiporpose mines.

In conclusion I really don`t suggest, but convincingly I ask to add AP-mine (Stockmine 43, S.Mine 35/44, Schutzemine 42) for PE PGrens and/or Sturmpioneers in Luft and TH docs.
It is deliriously, that US and CW with weak "mine-culture" and not used widespread mines in WW2 have AP-mines in every doctrine (M2A3 by every Engineers and Hawkins (half AP-half multipurpose) by every Sappers) , but Germans PE with well-qualified sappers and assortment
of mines have AP-mines only in SE, but Luft and TH didn`t have AP-mines of standart infantry.

P.S. WH is good, all 3 doctrine pioneers has AP-mines.