Mines

[MarKr]

Hi, based on some posts I was brought to mines and their system. It is true that the system is somewhat chaotic and so I would like to ask the players what their opinions are.

But first which units can lay mines?
US:
Engineers:
M2 anti-infantry = 15 munition, activation: everything, effective against: infantry only
M1A1 multipurpose mine = 25 munition, activation: vehicle, effective against: vehicles and tanks
(armor doc) Teller = 50 munition, activation: vehicles, effective against: vehicles and tanks

(Infantry doc) Riflemen = 20 munition, activation: everything, effective against: pretty much everything

Greyhound = 50 munition, activation: everything, effective against: pretty much everything

CW:
Sappers:
Hawkins = 20 munition, activation: everything, effective against: pretty much everything
Teller = 40 munition, activation: vehicles, effective against: vehicles and tanks

RE Sappers:
Anti-infantry mine = 20 munition, activation: everything, effective against: infantry only

WH:
Pios:
BK/Terror:
Anti-infantry "Stockmine type 43" = 20 munition, activation: everything, effective against: infantry only
Def:
Anti-infantry = 35 munition (less after unlock), activation: everything, effective against: infantry only
Teller = 35 munition, activation: vehicles, effective against: vehicles and tanks

PE:
SE:
PGrens:
Anti-infantry "Stockmine type 43" = 20 munition, activation: everything, effective against: infantry only
Halftracks:
Multipurpose mines = 25 munition, activation: everything, effective against: pretty much everything
TH:
PGrens:
Teller = 35 munition, activation: vehicles, effective against: vehicles and tanks

There are some weird things here e.g. the US WSC upgrade gives the multipurpose mines to Engineers and Riflemen (for Infantry doc), both mine have the same stats but those laid by Engineers only trigger vehicles while those laid by Riflemen can be triggered by infantry too.

CW Sappers can by default lay "Hawkins" mines which are labeled as "Anti infantry" but actually can harm vehicles too.
RE Sappers can lay extra mines which are also labeled as "anti-infantry" (20 ammo) which are actually of exactely same strenght as US anti-infantry mines (15 ammo).

Also it seems that some mines get set off at bigger distance than others.

I would say that anti-infantry mines can stay as they are since they do their job quite well.

Multipurpose mines should do less damage against tanks (I think Warhawks suggested this too in some topic) - I don't want to make them completely ineffective but half or one third of normal damage should do (lower damage would also mean they would cause criticals to tanks less often). So they would be effective against infantry and light vehicles but tanks would only take light damage from them.

Teller mines would take down light vehicles right away, tanks would take more serious damage and suffer engine damage/destroyed treads etc.

I am not much sure what to do (if anything at all) with costs of mines...especially the teller mines go from 35 ammo to 50 ammo while being same effective. Mines are kind of situational - if you put them in a middle of a street in a city or near a resource point, you have quite good chance they will kill something. However in an open field you need some luck so that enemy unit actually triggers them, if not then you wasted ammo, also arty shells can blow it up which is not a rare thing given the ammount of arty ingame. Also mine detecting units render them useles (they are not used very often but if mines become somewhat more effective this might change)...So the price should be set to such value that mines would be appealing to use while not too cheap for what they can do...

What are you thoughts in this matter?

Also I made some tweaks which will hopefully fix the bug when Teller mines get sometimes triggered but do no damage.

PS: I did not mention SD2s intentionally as they are currently more of an offmap arty rather than mines. This might or might not change in the future (we're not sure yet) so no comments about them are needed.

[Warhawks97]

Good that i read till end, i was just about to ask for sd2 anti infantry mines but just saw the last sentence^^.

Ok. In normal games mines arent really usefull. Lots of arty and since your team units are everywhere it happens more often that arty triggers the mine and damaging own vehicles. So i gave up using (if, then only very few) mines in such games. Only the early game mines used along with greyhound is usefull as you can field them quickly right where you are and when greyhounds can still be used for roaming. But later on mines are too dangerous for the own team.

Playing on large maps its something completely different. There i am using lots of mines, mainly with US. Greyhound mines and tellermines.


I would make tellermines arround 35-40 ammo.


You forgot the shrapnel mines from demolition stormtooper.

I also think some mines like normal stockmines are killing sometimes not a single men. Other mines whipping out entire squads. And the Multipurpose can whipe almost entire squads but also kill HT´s in a single hit.


Also these multirole mines which greyhound and SE HT is using are vcoh remnants more or less. They make all other mines "usless" as they are cheap and usefull against everything. But idk how to "handle" them. One option would be to remove them and Greyhound for example would get these M1A1 and in armor doc additionally tellermines instead of this multirole voch mine. But what then with SE docs mulitrole mines?


But mines need a serious discussion. Mines seem to be more or less "unfinished" as if old devs didnt care much about them.


But what need to be done at least:
1. Specialised mines if possible. Best would be to have some mines pure anti inf and cheap, maybe some against inf and certain vehicles and some mines pure anti tank that kill vehicles right away. But we should stop with "mines against everything".
2. More units that can deploy it. Its the same old story with inf doc VT. When just one or two units can use them then its very hard to use them effectively and i doubt that armor doc player Builds like 5 engineer squads just to deploy mines effectively. In last 3 vs 3 at fields of engagment i had to build two engineer squads and a HT to get mines eveywhere where we need them. So look arround for suited vehicles for example which could lay down mines (M20, Greyhound, Sdkfz 222, Staghound would be suited for CW but sadly its not in RE doc and a suited WH def doc vehicle).
Additionally for infantry (if we would have combat engineers in armor doc ), Tellermines could be added to armor doc Rifle squads, PE heavy assault grenadiers in TH doc, Def doc Volksgrens, RE normal sappers/inf section.

[kwok]

Agreed with warhawks on mines being relatively useless in "normal" games because of how frequent mortars/arty is used.

On larger maps, they're pretty handy. The only thing is I think it's not so much the cost that stops people from using it, but the amount of micro needed to lay a mine field. SD2's are used a LOT more because it takes nothing but point and click for a dense minefield. I'm not complaining about SD2's but trying to show what makes those "mines" appealing while others aren't.
The micro cost per benefit is way too high I think.
One big reason I think it takes so much micro to lay a mine field is because of the "drag" building style. First of all, having a line of minefields never really helps because one mine sets off the whole line, and most of the time the whole line only kills the single infantry that started the explosion. The "drag" building adds so many other button clicks to make a second mine that's far enough to not be set off by the first mine. Rather than being able to shift queue my engineers to whip out a minefield then turn my attention somewhere else while they deploy the mines, players are stuck going through a chain of micro commands that last as long as building single mines themselves.

I think a fair solution is to be able to drop mines the same way buildings are built so that why the mines can be shift-queue'd easier. Does it really matter which direction the mines are oriented? Is a line of mines really that helpful in any situation? Not really. It'd be really nice to just click "build mine", hold down shift, and click all the places I want to place a mine, that way I can turn my attention elsewhere while my engineers set up a mine field in the back.

[Warhawks97]

good idea. But also the problem is that it either requires a very fragile unit (non combat unit) of which later non or maybe one squad exist which then is also responsible to build order stuff (MG nests, trenches, OP points etc). And as PE in late game, when all buildings are up, i never rebuild 360 MP Pgrens and instead using only Heavy assault squads and AT squads.

The most frequent non SD2 mine in use is the Greyhound mine and some SE mines. Also storm shrapnels. As inf doc i also use mines with my rifles. Its simply that these units are build anyways and these units are usually closer to the place i want the mines.

So if really some vehicles and combat units would get the mines that would make mines also more appealing (see my first point).


Oh, markr, you also forgot the Gebirgsjäger mine:)

[Krieger Blitzer]

From my own perspective; I am using the anti personal mines only at house doors.. narrow entrances or perhaps anywhere else of which is enough located nearby the points... But arty\mortars always quickly manage to sweep them all off so I guess that there is no need really for any mine sweepers to be equipped then! That's why I somewhat believe that both the mines and the sweepers are actually overpriced.

I also think that u should probably take a look at the 'progress bars' of laying any kind of mines as they shouldn't be visible to the opponent anyhow!!! Sometimes they aren't invisible somehow :\


What bothers me more anyways.. is the currently applied Bk system of those nasty small indestructible bunkers called as tank traps... I wonder how much HP do they have btw?

[Butterkeks]

Yep mines are pretty useles sometimes...

1. Specialised mines if possible. Best would be to have some mines pure anti inf and cheap, maybe some against inf and certain vehicles and some mines pure anti tank that kill vehicles right away. But we should stop with "mines against everything".

Defintely a +1 for this one

How about 15-20 amo for anti inf, 25-30 for medium ones (anti inf and anti vehicle, killing about 50% of vehicle's HP) and 45-50 for teller mines?

Anti-inf should be able to kill around 3-4 men/squad, of course depending on how the unit steps on it (all at once or one guy far away from the others) so basically as effective as SD2 are now.
medium ones should be able to take out an entire squad + killing around 50% of vehicle HP.

Teller should be able to kill vehicles immidiately + around 75% HP of medium tanks and maybe around 40-50% of heavy and around 30% of very heavy ones.

Of course it's not possible to mae it that exact, just my thoughts on how they could be quite usefull

2. More units that can deploy it. Its the same old story with inf doc VT. When just one or two units can use them then its very hard to use them effectively and i doubt that armor doc player Builds like 5 engineer squads just to deploy mines effectively. In last 3 vs 3 at fields of engagment i had to build two engineer squads and a HT to get mines eveywhere where we need them. So look arround for suited vehicles for example which could lay down mines (M20, Greyhound, Sdkfz 222, Staghound would be suited for CW but sadly its not in RE doc and a suited WH def doc vehicle).

Yeah, this would also make some units more worth building that are not even used right now. For example after my experience around 90% of Axis HTs are never used, just as CW light vehices (Staghound etc.). This could be a good way to make them appear more often in games.

My two cents

[kwok]

I worry that once other units get the ability to drop mines, it makes those other mine layers even MORE obsolete (units that warhawks mentioned). I played a mine field recently in a 2v2 on good wood, mining the entire town so that I can focus mroe of my forces onto the center. It worked really well, it at least delayed or stalled the enemy from capturing the town so that i can react. In fact, my opponent made multiple comments on how aggravating the mines were. All I used were engineers while the opponent was far and dsitracted fighting in the mid. I even made more engineers after my first died to make mines. I was able to segment my engineers between mine layers and repair. It was pretty cool, they scored enough mine hits to get vetted. Eventually, the opponent artied the town a few times just to clear mines... So basically a munitions trade. Eh, I never found it trouble to find the units to lay mines. It'd be neat to give some utility to the more obsolete units by giving them mine drops, but I don't feel adding something for the sake of something is a good way to go, especially if it doesn't make sense in the units' intended role. But, my only complaint through deploying the mine field was the attention I needed to give to do it. If it wasn't such a big map and I can pull units off to take a "break" from fighting, i wouldn't be able to deploy the mines.

@Tiger
Just toss a satchel at tank traps. Works pretty well. Or drop a demo charge. If you're being shot at, smoke then demo charge. Works pretty well. The only sucky thing is when people tank trap bridges, you have to blow up the bridge to blow up the tank traps... But, I hate bridge maps anyways... so I just don't deal with bridge tank traps.

[MarKr]

You gave some interesting points...another reason to play on bigger maps .

Anyway:

I also think some mines like normal stockmines are killing sometimes not a single men. Other mines whipping out entire squads.

I also noticed that some infantry mines have bigger AoE than others while the price does not differ that much...weird.

And the Multipurpose can whipe almost entire squads but also kill HT´s in a single hit.

That is because multipurpose mines have much higher damage output so when infantry triggers them they usually get their asses kicked hard.

Also these multirole mines which greyhound and SE HT is using are vcoh remnants more or less. They make all other mines "usless" as they are cheap and usefull against everything.

Greyhound mines cost 50ammo which is as much as US Teller mines. They have approximately same effectiveness - but also kill infantry.

1. Specialised mines if possible. Best would be to have some mines pure anti inf and cheap, maybe some against inf and certain vehicles and some mines pure anti tank that kill vehicles right away. But we should stop with "mines against everything".

Isn't that what I wrote? I mean Infantry mines are already only effective against infantry, "medium" mines would kill infantry and light vehicles while doing only light damage to tanks.

2. More units that can deploy it. Its the same old story with inf doc VT. When just one or two units can use them then its very hard to use them effectively and i doubt that armor doc player Builds like 5 engineer squads just to deploy mines effectively. In last 3 vs 3 at fields of engagment i had to build two engineer squads and a HT to get mines eveywhere where we need them. So look arround for suited vehicles for example which could lay down mines (M20, Greyhound, Sdkfz 222, Staghound would be suited for CW but sadly its not in RE doc and a suited WH def doc vehicle).
Additionally for infantry (if we would have combat engineers in armor doc ), Tellermines could be added to armor doc Rifle squads, PE heavy assault grenadiers in TH doc, Def doc Volksgrens, RE normal sappers/inf section.

I think that kwok might be right in this one...if mines were deployable by vehicles, the current mine laying units will become even less build that is something I would like to avoid :/

One big reason I think it takes so much micro to lay a mine field is because of the "drag" building style. First of all, having a line of minefields never really helps because one mine sets off the whole line, and most of the time the whole line only kills the single infantry that started the explosion. The "drag" building adds so many other button clicks to make a second mine that's far enough to not be set off by the first mine. Rather than being able to shift queue my engineers to whip out a minefield then turn my attention somewhere else while they deploy the mines, players are stuck going through a chain of micro commands that last as long as building single mines themselves.

This is an interesting idea...I might try to make the mines build a little further from one another so that one would not set off the whole line. Or I could try to make them buildable by clicking with "shift" key pressed and build them as you describe...what would be better?

[SteamID_razelazz]

This is an interesting idea...I might try to make the mines build a little further from one another so that one would not set off the whole line. Or I could try to make them buildable by clicking with "shift" key pressed and build them as you describe...what would be better?

Time for a poll.

Though I predict 90%+ will vote for shift+click.

You might as well get rid of the line interval altogether.

[SteamID_razelazz]

I worry that once other units get the ability to drop mines, it makes those other mine layers even MORE obsolete (units that warhawks mentioned).

I made a thread a while back, where I suggested that builder units that can buy a minesweeper package, e.g. Engineers, Pioniers, and Sappers, should also get the camouflage ability, or at least camouflage in cover.

This way, they can actually act like sappers, defusing and setting mines in a stealthy way. I honestly have only used the minesweeper package in vCoH campaign mode, and it would be nice to see that get some action.

[kwok]

Oooh, if you do that, I could kiss you Markr. I prefer shift click because I think people would prefer placing mines in strategic pin point locations rather a string over an area. I know I'd pref the shift-point version. But, opening the interval distance would be progressive regardless. Whatever others feel I guess.

Now I feel like I'd be giving away some tactical secrets. Just changing that itself will definitely make me use mines a lot more. Even if the mines other values stay as is, I think they could be extremely strong.

[MarKr]

OK so the "shift + click" system works for mines very well. It seems better and more usefull than the "click and drag" that currently works. Is anyone here who has some objection against making all mines work that way?

[kwok]

WOOOO! Patch 4.9.4 coming out October 16? Yeah? Cool.

[MarKr]

Hardly...I still want to do something about the effectivity of mines - especially those "multipurpose", maybe also costs...don't know yet how will it be.

EDIT:
So following points:

1) Anti-infantry mines:
- cost: 15 ammo should be enough I guess
- effectivity: which of the anti-infantry mines should be kinda model for this type? Anyway no real damage to vehicels or tans.

2) "Mutlipurpose":
- cost: what should these cost?
- effectivity: I'd say that they should be activated by anything, these should be deadlier against infantry than "anti-infantry" mines, should be able to give moderate damage to light vehicles (HTs, Greyhound, Puma etc.) but have quite limited damage against tanks.

3) Anti-tank:
- cost: I'd say 40 is enough. What about Teller mines for Def doc? They become available after the "Mines" unlock which lowers mine cost.
- effectivity: what Butterkeks proposed seems quite right

It would be applied to mines I forgot to list in the first place (Demo Storms, Gebirgs, etc.).

Would it be OK if it were made that way or is there some problemwith it I fail to see?

[kwok]

In terms of the inf mines to "model" after, I think the WM antipersonnel mine is pretty good. It costs 20mu currently, but kills at least 1 trooper max 2 if lucky, unlike other antipersonnel mines which should and do cost more. I think killing any more than 1 or 2 is a bit too cost effective and could potentially ruin the dynamic and skill aspect of mines?

As for the multipurpose, how effective would the mines be vs infantry? Would they make anti-personnel obsolete? If I can kill an entire squad for ___ (some number between 15-40) that means it is at least 3 to 6 times more effective than regular antipersonnel (not including the fact you only have to place one over multiple) while it only being 2 to 3 times the price of antipersonnel mines.
Is it possible to set the values of mines to do critical damage to components but not necessarily health? A multipurpose can be something that doesn't excel at killing infantry (maybe 1-3 troopers killed), but rather something that can act as a regular antipersonnel mine but also disable vehicles. The upped cost is a gain in utility rather than straight damage?

[Warhawks97]

The Multipuropse mines are being quite OK in cost and efficency, talking about the greyhound mines. When The Multipurpose mines are as effective as the greyhound mines are atm - just a bit weaker against certain vehicles and shouldnt blow them up instantly- then approx 40 ammo seems to be ok. How much soldiers they kill depends how they are placed, in some rare occassion its an instant squad whipe. So some damage tweaks maybe and 40 would seem fair. The cost also because of the utility.

[kwok]

I'm so ready for this change. SO STOKED.

[MarKr]

In terms of the inf mines to "model" after, I think the WM antipersonnel mine is pretty good. It costs 20mu currently, but kills at least 1 trooper max 2 if lucky, unlike other antipersonnel mines which should and do cost more. I think killing any more than 1 or 2 is a bit too cost effective and could potentially ruin the dynamic and skill aspect of mines?

It would be possible to make that way...

As for the multipurpose, how effective would the mines be vs infantry?

Well, that's the question. I am agaist the to be able to instantly wipe out whole squads but as Warhawks said - it would happen anyway if a squad is clustered close to each other. But if anti-personel mines should kill 1-2 soldiers on explosion then multipurpose should go from 3-4? I mean they should be more effective but not too much.

Is it possible to set the values of mines to do critical damage to components but not necessarily health? A multipurpose can be something that doesn't excel at killing infantry (maybe 1-3 troopers killed), but rather something that can act as a regular antipersonnel mine but also disable vehicles. The upped cost is a gain in utility rather than straight damage?

I think it is possible however I still don't fully understand crits which is the reason why Wolf always dealt with changes around crits. However as far as I know chances of scoring a crit depend on how much damage the attack causes...Anyway I would say that people would favor dealing damage to vehicles over "only" immobilizing them...maybe I'm wrong though.

The Multipuropse mines are being quite OK in cost and efficency, talking about the greyhound mines. When The Multipurpose mines are as effective as the greyhound mines are atm - just a bit weaker against certain vehicles and shouldnt blow them up instantly- then approx 40 ammo seems to be ok. How much soldiers they kill depends how they are placed, in some rare occassion its an instant squad whipe. So some damage tweaks maybe and 40 would seem fair. The cost also because of the utility.

But you said that Teller mines should cost 35-40 ammo. Wouldn't it be weird that Multipurpose mines cost same as Tellers? Given their strength and all...

[Warhawks97]

so you would say cheaper or more expensive? I mean multipurpose would cost arround 40 as it harms inf squads but also able to damage vehicles. AT mines would cost that much because it instant whipes vehicles and dealing heavy damage to tanks and probably crits.


I think the outcome here is quite unpredictable and thus the "best cost" are hardly to get without experiences being made with changes. But i would also not mind if multipurpose keep their cost of 50 ammo.

[MarKr]

Also guys, as already stated CW has from the start available Hawkins mine which is labeled as anti-personel mine but actually is a multipurpose mine...it only costs 20 ammo. On the other hand CW has no other mines available except for RE where special Sappers can lay true anti-personel mines for 20 ammo with exactely the same effect as US anti-personel mines.
CW could get true anti-personel mines instead of Hawkins mines, but then RA and RAF docs won't have any mines against vehicles (would that be an issue?).
Or they could keep Hawkins but the price should go up I guess.

Any comments/suggestions/ideas?

[Warhawks97]

This true anti personal mines, which would it be? Or Hawkins changed into pure Anti Inf?

If Hawkins would remain as only mine then i would rather got up in cost a bit. Thing is, some CW player use this early mine right in the early game. Mostly on flank sides of their sapper squads to prevent getting steamroled by a mix of enemie inf and vehicles. So a cost increase would maybe hurt the one or the other CW player. Also it would be the only faction unable to use mines (all other can use stockmines right away).


But generally mines are rarely used by CW. The often single expensive sapper squad is to busy with repairs, SD2 cleaning and generally kept back as they are too valuable and costly as to be send somewhere to use mines.

So its a very tricky issue. If CW players use mines, then usually only in early game as the sappers later stay back for more important jobs. Keeping it cheap but effective as they are atm would be against the "new rules of mines".

[kwok]

Well mining ability doesn't have to be symmetrical across all factions does it? For example, if allied and axis mines cost the same, and they both function the same, then allied mines are much better value because axis infantry are on average more expensive. Likewise, ability to place mines is a cost factor too. The only unit Brits have as far as I know that can place mines are engineers, so why not let them have their cheap multi purpose mine? It's not like they use them all that often nowadays anywyas. Leaving them as is might not make them as obsolete as we think after the mine laying mechanic is fixed and others start using mines (mimicry after a new strategy becomes more popular). Maybe brits need the changes to keep up with others, or maybe Brits are fine as is? Maybe it's worth waiting out to see if it needs any changes?

If the purpose of the changes is to make mines in general more relevant, I know for sure with the mine laying method change I'll be using them more regardless of faction.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Leave it as it is.

[MarKr]

OK so the rework of files is done. I have already tested it a little bit and it seems to work quite fine so far.

Anti-infantry mines:
cost 15 ammo
usually kill about 2 soldiers (if clustered close to each other then more)
uneffective against vehicles (do some damage to unarmored vehicles such as Jeeps, Bikes etc.)

Multipurpose mines:
cost 30 ammo
usually kill about 4 soldiers (if clustered close to each other then possibly whole squad)
immobilize vehicles
severe damage/ kills immediately unarmored vehicles (Jeeps, Bikes etc.)
moderate damage to lightly armored vehicels (HTs, armored cars, light tanks...)
low damage to medium tanks
very low damage to heavies

AT mines:
cost 45 ammo
not triggered by infantry (still if they get caught in the blast radius, it is a bad day for them)
immobilize vehicles
kill immediately unarmored vehicles (Jeeps, Bikes etc.)
kill immediately lightly armored vehicels (HTs, armored cars, light tanks...)
high damage to medium tanks
moderate damage to heavies

The "shift + click" build system applied to all mines.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Cheers!

However that obviously this was only a general preview.. but there must be some other exceptions if I am not mistaken, such as the Sharpenal mines for example... I think they just don't require any tunes for now btw as they are currently almost the best to be ever used against inf which was exactly the case in reality so far.