PE TH doc (again)

[Warhawks97]

I did made a topic with poll in the old forum but it was told to me that nothing will be done there due to too much work or rather unnecessary work.

I want to open a topic about it again and would consider it was important was well as many other do.

Link from old topic because i dont want to write everything again:

http://blitzkrieg-mod.de/board/topic/48 ... oc-rework/



This doc is so pointless and makes games just boring and offers nothing usefull to the player. Also leaving no space for the enemie to use any kind of armor as well. When allied realized that there is a th doc they just spam paks and 17 pounder emplacments. That forces the Th doc player to fight mainly with infantry and (and some tank IV´s maybe) which basically means that he plays PE more or less non doctrinal with non-doctinal PE units. Its simply the pure possible spam of high quality Tankbuster that could easily stomp even the greatest and cheapest trash quantity tanks spam coming from 2-3 different US armor players.

No, honestly, this doc is only usefull for guys who play compstomp at blazzing lowlands against three expert US bots with armor doc (such as i did when i was new in BK^^) and even those probably miss some offensive punch of KT´s and Panthers to finish those bots!



I mean i sometimes ask in team chat for docs and even the newest players first sentence is: "TH doc is usless". Maybe i did some screenshots of it even.


I recently played against that doc which ended in a Nashorn and later JP spam while i had armor doc. The most usefull thing i could do was to build reccons, paks and single HE shermans that did protect my mates 17 pounders against enemie infantry.

After that i used TH doc and i literally found nothing usefull. Me and my teammates or one of my teammates and me did controle the early game but i did not know what to unlock to keep going with that push. The best i could do was to build a Tank IV/70 in early game (!) to prepare already against the expected jumbo which came but which did not attack. Trying to attack with IV/70 was pretty pointless due to the speed and just screwed them away.

With other words the best possible options this silly doc provides is to get a IV/70 or two and ambush them somewhere to counter the Jumbo and every tanks masses that may occure and after that unlocking double Panzerschreck, Panzerfaust 100 and AT squad vet 1 which is more than sufficient to deal even with the largest allied tanks. The other 2/3 of the doc are pointless unless you wanna stomp infantry with JP spam -.-

Booth games (where i fought against TH doc and the one i fought with TH doc) turned into pure arty games. Pretty much every TH got killed by priests except one. The mass production only helps to replace all the Tankbusters lost to CW arty! Tank fights doesnt exist really and the only powerfull late game offensive unit is the JP as it is the only Tank fast enough and with enough armor (JT is too slow for that).



Something that would be quickly done is to remove ammo, Gunsight and TH massproduction upgrades (Me and my opponent with TH doc ran on 600 mp anyway all the time) and re-add Tiger, Panther G and KT!

Give back the old soul of an Axis Elite Armor doc instead silly spam doc!


I doubt that it would be too much work and most would love it and the doc would be played more. Also producing tanks with allis wouldnt become pointless just because a single player choosed that doc.


Make a poll if you want such as you did with Grens and flamethrower.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Totally agree with you.
P.S. I think you are talking about WOlfheze battle where i played arty, terence raf, you tanks. Ye, was pretty strange game when you just seated with tanks cause imposible to advance and in this time all tankbusters were getting smashed by priests. In fact we were just waiting for priests high vet lvl, in order to destroy jagds and nashorns faster than they produced them.

[Warhawks97]

Totally agree with you.
P.S. I think you are talking about WOlfheze battle where i played arty, terence raf, you tanks. Ye, was pretty strange game when you just seated with tanks cause imposible to advance and in this time all tankbusters were getting smashed by priests. In fact we were just waiting for priests high vet lvl, in order to destroy jagds and nashorns faster than they produced them.

Yeah. Exactly that. Few days later i played with th doc and it was pretty much the same....

[QWERTYAndreas]

This doc is so pointless and makes games just boring and offers nothing usefull to the player. Also leaving no space for the enemie to use any kind of armor as well.

I will just leave it here...

Or really. I wont.

Tankhunter was changed for a reason. When the Panther G, Tiger and King Tiger was in the doc - it was simply a "Spam the best heavytanks in the game" doctrine. Nothing more. Now it is what i was intended to be, a doctrine about destroying tanks. If you add the panther G, tiger or whatever - you utterly destroy this doctrine Again. I migth not be the best player to BK anymore, but before i went to the army i was quite good. And saying that it will be less about spamming, by adding those heavytanks back make it seems like you are totally clueless.

There are several really good Things in this one:

Jagdpanther: Can take out EVERY Allied tank in the game, from ambush.
Double schrek - do you even know what these can do? (also to emplacements)
A strong medium tank (PIV)
And of course all the other, rather powerfull, tankhunters/destroyers.

PE already have EXCELLENT infantry. Panzergrenadiers are some of the most versatile infantry in the game. They even have the nondoc WaffenSS!!

They migth miss out on some artillery. But really. Don't even dare to use that argument. It is a TEAM game. ANd they have the excellent mortar halftrack.

[Warhawks97]

This doc is so pointless and makes games just boring and offers nothing usefull to the player. Also leaving no space for the enemie to use any kind of armor as well.

I will just leave it here...

Or really. I wont.

Tankhunter was changed for a reason. When the Panther G, Tiger and King Tiger was in the doc - it was simply a "Spam the best heavytanks in the game" doctrine. Nothing more. Now it is what i was intended to be, a doctrine about destroying tanks. If you add the panther G, tiger or whatever - you utterly destroy this doctrine Again. I migth not be the best player to BK anymore, but before i went to the army i was quite good. And saying that it will be less about spamming, by adding those heavytanks back make it seems like you are totally clueless.

There are several really good Things in this one:

Jagdpanther: Can take out EVERY Allied tank in the game, from ambush.
Double schrek - do you even know what these can do? (also to emplacements)
A strong medium tank (PIV)
And of course all the other, rather powerfull, tankhunters/destroyers.

PE already have EXCELLENT infantry. Panzergrenadiers are some of the most versatile infantry in the game. They even have the nondoc WaffenSS!!

They migth miss out on some artillery. But really. Don't even dare to use that argument. It is a TEAM game. ANd they have the excellent mortar halftrack.

One question: Do you think that axis EVER had problems dealing with allied armor?

I mean in games (talking about the 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4) there are so many inf squads with schreck (luftwaffe, schocktroopers etc). Also 88´s, we see elephant regularly..... Panthers and Tigers and even stugs and tank IV are enough in most situations... we have Marders in all Pe docs and also hetzers and so on... etc etc etc..... why do we need such a insane specialised tank busting doctrine? why do i need JP spam when we have Panthers, Nashorns, Elephants and dozens of schrecks..... tell me ... just why? There are currently double JP on a field but not single allied tank... sometimes they dont even build tanks and i see JP´s fighting against SAS -.-

just had a game again and one went TH doc.... Every allied armor was pointless.... jumbos... persh ace... everything... result? RIGHT... arty arty arty.........



why The old PE doc spammed..... Maybe Fuel trade?? .... maybe too low cost??.... who knows but its not an excuse to turn an enitre doc to do a job axis never had problems with..... Maybe allis couldnt spam enough because they had insane upkeep and in order to balance that upkeep out they need to spend a large ammount of fuel into stuff to reduce the upkeep but the result is that US never really have fuel to be called a quantity faction... thats why Jumbo and Persh ace are pretty much the only tanks you will see on the field even without TH doc on enemie side.


TH spam: nonsense because we have heavy at guns/tanks and inf AT in every doc

[Kasbah]

I love TH doc. Imo is way more interesting now than before when it had all the best german tanks and, as Andreas said, it was a "Spam the best heavytanks in the game"

However, I do think Nashorn is useless there. For the same price you build a much stronger Jagdpanzer IV long barreled. And I would really like to see the Tiger Ace back, but nothing more. No Panther and no KT.

[Warhawks97]

I love TH doc. Imo is way more interesting now than before when it had all the best german tanks and, as Andreas said, it was a "Spam the best heavytanks in the game"

However, I do think Nashorn is useless there. For the same price you build a much stronger Jagdpanzer IV long barreled. And I would really like to see the Tiger Ace back, but nothing more. No Panther and no KT.

"Spam of the heavytanks" lmfao twice.... whats now? even more spam of super tankbuster! whats the point? Its not only effective against tanks, it even greatly outspams opposition tank forces! I use Hetzers just to mark enemie Infantry!

How was it in old version? A powerfull offensive doc. Now? Silly super spam of campy tankbuster doc. There are more "sharks" on the map than "fishes" and most TH´s wont see any enemie tank in their live time which usually ends due to arty.

In old version the JP and other Th´s got build if neccessary and when there had been great numbers of enemie tanks of when being in a rather defensive position to deal with larger numbers of enemie tank forces. The Hetzer and IV/70 had been kind of emergency tankbuster and the JP an elite tankhunter with quality prices! (up to 1000 mp)

Now they spam JP´s even when there is not a single enemie tank just because they have spam cost!

What do you think is more unfair in games? Having two axis docs capabale to spam powerfull medium tanks and elite tankbuster such as JP (BK doc and Th doc) or just one that spams Tank IV´s while the other builds occassionally an strong tank. Also the ONLY and really ONLY reason why old doc could spam Panther was the easy fuel trade after 3 CP and 100 ammo for 100 fuel. Now it gives 75 fuel and is later available. Also think about that:

http://blitzkrieg-mod.de/board/topic/48 ... abilities/

That would reduce the "spam of elites"

A doc that may has all kind of Elite tanks doesnt mean to be able to spam those. Ive never seen JT and KT at the same time and even Panther G and JP was very very seldomly together as booth were and costly. Also what i suggested was to have seperate upgrades for TH building to unlock JP and JT and one upgrade in tank support command building unlocking Panther and KT which would reduce the chance to spam booth.


And i rather have an axis doc that has all elites in one doc but which has to pay a lot for each tank instead a doc that spams pure elite Tankbusters.

IF and i really say IF i could imagine a special TH doc then it would be for allis simply as they have it harder dealing with axis elite tanks and also for historical reasons but even for allied i would see little reason for that.




And i ask myslef currently if you guys have ever played some teamfights. It is horrible boring for booth sides. As axis you may can spam TH´s but no allied would really build tanks and if then only anti inf tanks to defend 17 pounders. And as axis you sit there with huge ammount on res and nothing is happening. In every game i played TH doc i had two IV/70 very soon covering the map and denying any enemie tank attack, One JP and two or three inf squads and up to 1000 MP in reserve and no cloue what to do with it. Another JP? BS.




@Qwerty: Who said that the doc name has to remain from voch. Belive me when i tell you that Tankbusting is something completely different there than in bk. There you cant just put a cheap 50 mm pak or marder somewhere and the anti tank defense is complete. In vcoh allied and esspecially US could do a good spam in late game and double schreck and tellermines were extremly usefull. Also tank spotting in the fog is very usefull as vcoh has no spotter and the AP round upgrade was for all tanks and increased pen chance which was esspecially important against the heavy armored churchills but also against shermans. Beside that the factions itself had been more important and less the docs and every PE doc was powerfull in offense and had Panther battlegroup in late game (two Panther were even cheaper than two Hetzer in late game). Also brits commandos in vcoh got changed into RAF in its name and got also airstrikes as support. So why must the PE Tankhunter doc stuck on its name? If you would play vcoh as well you guys would know why th doc in vcoh makes sense but not in BK.




and "spam of elite"..... fix that what made/would make it possible instead kicking the poor tanks out of it....... I guess you would tear down all houses on earth just because they may can catch fire instead to find the reasons for that and to try to improve the houses and everything in it to avoid that they catch fire...... So fix that what would enable "elite tank spam" instead to kick them out entirely.




Edit: Pls note that the Tiger was probably for a long time the most important tank destroyer together with Stugs. Now they have either TIgers nor Stugs -.-

[Kasbah]

When TH doc had Tiger, King Tiger and Panther I never built TH (which is the name of the doc) because those tanks are far more useful than TH (MG, turret...)
Now that the doc is TH specialized it requires more tactic and collaboration with other players than rushing heavy tanks and destroying everything.
And now that 76' is so abusively powerful against Tiger and Panthers that it can destroy them in 2 shots (even in long range), Jagdpanzers and jagpdanthers are much more needed than before. I also would like to see the old Tiger Ace back in TH doc. This tank could change a game, but it doesn't seem it's going to happen so...

[Krieger Blitzer]

When TH doc had Tiger, King Tiger and Panther I never built TH (which is the name of the doc) because those tanks are far more useful than TH (MG, turret...)
Now that the doc is TH specialized it requires more tactic and collaboration with other players than rushing heavy tanks and destroying everything.
And now that 76' is so abusively powerful against Tiger and Panthers that it can destroy them in 2 shots (even in long range), Jagdpanzers and jagpdanthers are much more needed than before. I also would like to see the old Tiger Ace back in TH doc. This tank could change a game, but it doesn't seem it's going to happen so...

Hey! Wait a minute here!! Noway!!! That 76mm pak isn't always effective against Tigers or even Panthers btw... I had a Tiger that just kept bouncing off its shells more than 5 times and yet again 3 times! That 76mm pak is rarely able to hit the Tiger even as it usually misses. While I don't object on that as this is how it should remain to be.. Dude, even the 17p shells sometimes bounces off Panthers and Tigers... The Tiger Ace or any other early Tiger that later becomes Vet 4 surely still can change the fate of most game battles I swear. Once, my enemy was at my base.. then my Tiger Ace suddenly appeared bouncing off 2 17p shells then quickly destroying that 17p and yet owning 2 E8s then a Hellcat after 2 Achilles, pushing the enemy back; Kicking his Pershing with a single shot from a long range!! Finally, the Ace died by a Typhoon. All this short story happened or I mean occurred in less than 5 minutes of the whole game period...

Check my YouTube channel; https://www.youtube.com/user/ora096 and then see the few videos I uploaded there, I will be uploading many more after exactly one month out from this moment showing many similar stories of how a Tiger Ace or just a normal Tiger or even a Panther all turned the tide of several games. I will be uploading a video titled as "CoH Bk mod; Wittmann's & Barkmann's last stand"

U can also go and check the game replay I published on the topic posted here on this forums 'Why Allies and German tanks are made equal???!!!" where I was discussing about tank costs and availability.

It's true that the replay there represents a different special game with a different rules but yeah, this surely doesn't mean that the Ace is always able to turn games out!

[Warhawks97]

When TH doc had Tiger, King Tiger and Panther I never built TH (which is the name of the doc) because those tanks are far more useful than TH (MG, turret...)
Now that the doc is TH specialized it requires more tactic and collaboration with other players than rushing heavy tanks and destroying everything.
And now that 76' is so abusively powerful against Tiger and Panthers that it can destroy them in 2 shots (even in long range), Jagdpanzers and jagpdanthers are much more needed than before. I also would like to see the old Tiger Ace back in TH doc. This tank could change a game, but it doesn't seem it's going to happen so...

is a joke isnt it?

OK lets say you play not US armor and you have to 76 shermans for 920 mp and 120 fuel + 50 ammo (without HE upgrade) and upkeep of+20 MP and 8 fuel per min. Your opponent has a Tiger for 900/155 and 16 mp and 5 fuel upkeep. Ammo cost are not neede as tiger need either gunisght nor AP rounds to fight against shermans.
If The Shermans should have any chance to beat the Tiger booth would need HVAP which increases ammo cost to 200 ammo. If the Tiger makes the first hit which often causes cirt damage the sherman player lost 100 ammo for nothing. After that he can just beg for the lucky 5% onehsot chance to kill the tiger but if it doesnt happen the shermans are most likely dead and tiger, in best case, damaged and left behind with vet steps. In addtion to that the shermans are a way more vulnerable to other AT stuff.
"JP´s and other Jagpanzer are muhc more needed" that was a good joke. In fact everything that US armor doc can do in teamfights is to wait untill all axis Jagpanzers are killed by arty -.-...... I rarely lose a tank against us shermans as they are very rare anyway. And as i said i use Hetzers to mark infantry and stuff or to attack emplacemants but allied tanks are very rare, esspecially allied tanks that are attacking. In fact, to counter US armor that has no arty support by CW arty doc, you just have to build 88 with Luft or def doc or marders with PE, Hetzers, Panthers or simply infantry with schreck...... really, that sentence was a good joke. That they are needed so much is probably the reason why this doc is so seldomly played and if someone plays it he will be pretty much jobless and playing it like a nondoctrinal with standard PE inf -.-



Also this name is a VCOH name! Commandos got also renamed into RAF in BK and airstrikes got added. Also in vcoh, as i said, tellermine had been usefull, the US had a good tank spam without fuel issues and shermans with 76 could take on Panzer IV´s. Also vehicle spotting in "Fog of War" was more usefull as spotters did not exist in vcoh and last but not least you should know that in vcoh every PE doc had Panthers and thus Panther unlock was unneccessary. In Fact Panther had been standard PE tank just to correct some assumption about this docs role.

So in BK i would highly prefer to call it Elite Armor doc or something like that (and even the name tankhunter doc would justify tigers as important tank destroyer). Spam is impossible due to cost and even if there is a Panther G spam i can say that this can be neccessary in long teamfights. In late game, when 17 pounders, achilles and number of other stuff increases the losses of Panthers can be somewhat high. So it wouldnt be much of a mistake to have one axis doc able to get some Panthers to maintain axis offensive power. If spam is still to high then you should rather consider changes on cost/fuel res trade etc instead to remove the tanks. Its not their fault that they can be build maybe in larger numbers as intended.

And Jagdpanzers and JP´s would not lose their use. At times where a JP cost 1100/210 people did use it and not seldomly it won the games for me an others. Just German did never in reality nor should they spam Jagdpanzers in BK in greater numbers than allied which based their anti-tank warfare on Tankbusters while axis had less but therefore multirole tanks.
The need of axis Jagdpanzers and JP would be if players stuck a bit in defensive position against numbers of enemie tanks and so i did and so axis did in reality and that would be best for BK. If axis are in offense and fighting against mix of inf and tanks there is no need for extremly powerfull tankbuster that could take on the entire allied armor force by their own. But right now axis player spam all sorts of tankbuster and facing not a single allied tank and using, lmao, Jagdpanzers to fight against some commandos and other inf using coaxial MG suppression and marking target ability. Thats just silly.

[Charles Vane]

well I think now it is more specilized to a Task. yes. but I cannot agree that the old one was "spamming the best heavies"
These tanks cost a lot of ressources and were mid and late game unit. early game vs US inf doc was really painfull. I often saw that the old german armor doc was outspammed by US shermans now the german outspam the US... the old one had also no good arty Support...so

!vote for rollback

[V13dweller]

You could just rollback using the downloads for the old version on ModDB.

[QWERTYAndreas]

Just to get our facts straigth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(gaming)

The old one WAS about spamming. Executing the same tactics/maneuver EACH, and EVERY time. Building panther Gs. The best tank in the entire game

Before the doc was changed back to a "TH" doc, there was simply no use of the dedicated AT vechiles - because a panther G could fill that role. The tank could counter EVERY SINGLE Allied tank head-on. It was very good vs infantry too. Thus a TH was a Waste of resources, in compare to the other tanks.

Currently the doc reflects a much more specialized role which is nice - it encourages team Work much more than before.

[Warhawks97]

Just to get our facts straigth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(gaming)

The old one WAS about spamming. Executing the same tactics/maneuver EACH, and EVERY time. Building panther Gs. The best tank in the entire game

Before the doc was changed back to a "TH" doc, there was simply no use of the dedicated AT vechiles - because a panther G could fill that role. The tank could counter EVERY SINGLE Allied tank head-on. It was very good vs infantry too. Thus a TH was a Waste of resources, in compare to the other tanks.

Currently the doc reflects a much more specialized role which is nice - it encourages team Work much more than before.

and? whats wrong? Having some Panthers in late game is absolutely OK. The US tank spam had to be adjusted. Also why do you blame the Panther lol? If it was too much spam then fix the resons for it (e.g res trade to early and effective on old doc).

And that was the way axis did fight and do in BK. Axis get single powerfull mutlirole tanks while allied fight more in combination of battle tanks and tankbuster-simply that (or was intended that way and once worked that way).

And no use for axis TH´s: yeah, little but whats wrong? axis never spammed them and why should they as their main battle tanks (panther) could beat allied main battle tank (sherman and others) very effectively. Its simply late game balance. Allis more specilized tanks supported by tankbuster and allowed due to low cost and supply yard later vs axis with more expensive units and without supply yard but therefore better multirole.

I admit that i did use the JP not often but i also dont build them more as i do now. In old versions i used JP´s when facing almost only tanks. I really had games where even all my Panthers couldnt do anything anymore due to many achilles and shermans for which i did need 2 shots while those killed me in the same time. Only JP´s helped me then with ambush and powerfull oneshot gun to kill all those achilles and shermans and fireflys before those killed me and ambushed it when not in combat. So there was a use but only in specific situations and nobody build JP´s for pointless reasons (as they do now to send them to kill single HE sherman and commandos) Now i cant use Panthers as dont have them but i dont use more JP´s because of that as i once did and instead i almost only use inf with that doc! The pure existence of that doc in a teamfight induces the enemie to build no tanks at all. So how exactly is this doc more usefull when nobody build tanks anymore? tell me pls, i am freaking curious.

Cheap JP´s dont make them more usefull if no enemie builds tanks anymore nor doing attack with them. The JP was effective when it cost up to 1000 mp and even at that times nobody really dared to attack or to use tanks when they realized that enemies uses JP´s instead Panthers. Still there was a better quality/quantity ration. I think you cant imagine how silly it is when there are just two shermans and the enemie has already JP of which you know that it can be easily replaced even when you would destory it with some own tanks.

[QWERTYAndreas]

If i understand you correctly, then:

If you have a doctrine that is meant to counter tanks, and it counters tanks SO EFFECTIVELY that the enemy doesn't build tanks at all - then the doctrine migth be pretty darn good at countering tanks. Don't you think?

(i don't think the doctrine negates the use of tanks, but it counters them rather effectively)

[Charles Vane]

just for you to get your Facts straight:

with old doc spamming? if the old TH doc outspamm the US you ddid something terrible wrong.
with the new I outspamm the US with Hetzers before you even field something bigger than a sherman. so which Version is more about spamming?
and for lategame. what is worse? spamming jagdpanthers or panther Gs? last time I checked the damn JP in camo oneshotted Pershings.

[QWERTYAndreas]

just for you to get your Facts straight:

with old doc spamming? if the old TH doc outspamm the US you ddid something terrible wrong.
with the new I outspamm the US with Hetzers before you even field something bigger than a sherman. so which Version is more about spamming?
and for lategame. what is worse? spamming jagdpanthers or panther Gs? last time I checked the damn JP in camo oneshotted Pershings.

From the article:

"Spamming, in the context of video games, refers to the repeated use of the same item or action. For example, "grenade spamming" is the act of a player throwing a large amount of grenades in succession into an area. In fighting games, one form of spamming would be to execute the same offensive maneuver so many times in succession that one's opponent does not receive a chance to escape the series of blows."

Building panther Gs. No, you cannot build more units than the US - but you can still outspam them, since spam is a type of tactics.

And yep, the jagdpanther is strong. It is also stronger vs tanks than the Panther G. But it doesnt have a turret. It doesnt have MGs. The panther G is so strong, this difference doesn't matter. You can simply ditch the TD/THs and build panther Gs. The tank can tackle everything.

Thus you spam.



BUT: I do agree that TH should be changed, in some aspects. Like fuel tade (all ressource trade abilities are rather... No-so-fitting in BK mod. It worked better in vCoH)

[Warhawks97]

If i understand you correctly, then:

If you have a doctrine that is meant to counter tanks, and it counters tanks SO EFFECTIVELY that the enemy doesn't build tanks at all - then the doctrine migth be pretty darn good at countering tanks. Don't you think?

(i don't think the doctrine negates the use of tanks, but it counters them rather effectively)

correct. Result: boring and no interesting tankfights and since axis lost its doc which was mainly responsible for tanks in late game and to supply axis with enough tanks for assault. The quality vs quantity balance was given so far (only res trade did cause some trouble sometimes).

And this is entirely broken now and since axis spams so many TH´s for cheap many allis tanks and esspecially expensive tankbusters like comet became usless or at least they are not cost effective anymore. Jacks as similiar problem currently.


And as there is no more point to build tanks as alli since Hetzer spam start even before sherman a enters the battlefield (which is already ridicolus enough) you think tf is the solution?... not really.... hf by trying to kill axis TH´s with bazookas. They are well armored and the incoming accuracy (esspecially in move) is very very low and more than half of bazookas will fail anyway. A single fixed scout car with grens will usually stop any inf from US armor doc effectively so.... yeah.... "Anyone has arty? there are TH´s next to every single tree just i cant see them..."

And the JP fights off even SAS very well with main canon and coaxial killing them after a while and no bazooka will pen it anyway. And if the taken damage from a zook is not really a problem for JP.



The doc is hell effective and so effective that it is already usless. You should rather place the question: Do axis need specialised tank destroyer? NO. Two docs with 88 and all PE docs have marder and Hetzer. Every axis Battle tank can fight with any allied armor so far. Schrecks and fausts and even 50 mm pak is a serious threat to basically every allied tank.

axis need tankbuster when fighting against very large masses of allied tanks and not just because they can.


Even Guderian did not want the Jagdpanzer IV as he considered the stugs as sufficient enough and cheaper to build just btw.


The axis elite armor doc would have TD´s as kind of alternative or emergency when facing a lot of enemie armor which can happen and what did happen.

When we would have IV/70 for 600/80 as alternative for Panther with 800/150 (same gun and similiar armor) and JP for 900/160 or 1000/180 as alternative to KT with 1400/210 (same gun and better speed just slightly weaker armored) we would have an alternative to the player to build them when facing large numbers of enemie tanks or powerfull enemie tanks. The TH´s would still be very cost effective with a 1-4 shots (if enemies uses almost only tanks) and enemies would still have a fair chance to win with masses of tanks.


Sure we would see by far less german Tankhunter but they are for special situations and playing a minor role (like in reality) for axis. Also JP´s are a kind of elite Tankbuster and its hilarous to see that tank on the field when there is sometimes not even a single allied Tank (already happend) and also replaced very fast and instantly.


And JP spam is more extrem as old Panther spam (also because entire ammo income can be used for res trade due to free gunsight and ammo upgrade) and i dont see the difference. I find JP spam harder to counter than Panther spam to be honest as Panther did less onethots and was not able to hide. And trying to kill JP with inf is as usless as to try killing a Panther and JP has also suppression ability.

[mg42slo]

I still kinda like TH especialy in early/mid game when i get those wit zimerit upgraded PZ4 (with fast TC), and can prety much deal with all allied armor if i combine those units with some tank busters. But for late game something feels lacking, i suggested some time ago to replace the jagdtiger call in with an king tiger or panther group, as its more a minor change and woudnt require a whole doc rework. And if you can field a KT and JP combined with some inf i couldn't ask for more to make an attack. Some might think KT +JT to be too much, thats why this could work.

[Warhawks97]

I still kinda like TH especialy in early/mid game when i get those wit zimerit upgraded PZ4 (with fast TC), and can prety much deal with all allied armor if i combine those units with some tank busters. But for late game something feels lacking, i suggested some time ago to replace the jagdtiger call in with an king tiger or panther group, as its more a minor change and woudnt require a whole doc rework. And if you can field a KT and JP combined with some inf i couldn't ask for more to make an attack. Some might think KT +JT to be too much, thats why this could work.

you like the Tank IV and i know that. But fact is that allied dont even try to build any tanks because once you start feeling that tank IV isnt enough anymore you simply gonna outspam allied tanks with Hetzers and IV/70 or simply start spamming JP´s later on..... I´ve seen a game where you build several JP´s just for 17 pounder head on attack, Fighting SAS etc... it cant be the goal that an elite tankbuster is so cheap that enemie wont even try producing tanks anymore and that this elite tankbuster is being used for doing funny head on attacks on 17 pounders and even stupidly wasted by showing the rear to couple of enemie AT squads....

So what exactly is funny on it? A Tank IV with Zimmerit that already stomps every allied armor into ground which shows once again the pointlessness of the cheap Elite Tankbuster production? I cant laugh about it and i am far away to call that "funny".



And in late game i know what it lacks..... Normal Axis Battletanks.....


Also replacing JT with KT. What is that? Its again a randomly mixed doctrine without deeper sense. And at times when it has booth tanks available they never occured together simply due to the cost of buildings, upgrades, the CP´s and the cost of each unit. So where is the problem?


Also a doc with Panther, Tiger and KT instead Gunsight upgrade, ammo upgrade and mass production upgrade would still allow you to combine the Tank IV with IV/70 or whatever just that the cost would be more fair. Three changes are not a whole doc rework i those three unlocks are usless in my opinion. I mean most of the time you dont need special AP rounds anyway and Gunsight... well 75 ammo per tank less but currently i am running on 600 ammo anyway playing that doc and as it wouldnt spam so many tanks anymore you wouldnt need many gunsight upgrades. One squad with STG´s, one with lmg and the one or the other grenade, thats all. Sometimes i do build 2-3 hotchkiss just to have something i can spend my ammo for.

[DaŇjeL_SK]

In late game is TH the only doc, which can spam of allies tanks. Because tiger and panther have no chance against shermans in bigger superiority.

[Warhawks97]

In late game is TH the only doc, which can spam of allies tanks. Because tiger and panther have no chance against shermans in bigger superiority.

what a smart post, is it because of the youtube vid where A Tiger got killed by vet 2 e8 with2 and commander+HVAP ammo on mid range?


and which spam? I seldomly see any spam to be honest and most of the time there is only jumbo and a jackson. US armor doc has incredible fuel upkeep (one Hellact cost 5 like a Tiger while marders cost 0 just btw), a lot of fuel intensive stuff need to be upgraded for a "spam" and as i play BK and armor doc very often its a way easier to spam numbers of Panzer IV´s as it is with armor doc to spam e8´s.

I havent seen any e8 in a long time and the last one who used it was me and it was like 1 month ago. Simple sherman spam is really no threat if not supported by CW arty.

[Kasbah]

It's probably because E8 and 76 cost half mp and one third fuel of a Tiger and can one or two-shot it even in long range, frontally and in level 4 with tank commander. And this happens quite often (one shot not that much but 2, yes)

And there are also people here who like to play vs cpu. I know this mod is mainly made for pvp and many posters only view the mod from this optic and disregard compstompers, but the spam of allied tanks vs cpu is quite real, therefore tank hunters are the best way to effectively counter them.

[Warhawks97]

It's probably because E8 and 76 cost half mp and one third fuel of a Tiger and can one or two-shot it even in long range, frontally and in level 4 with tank commander. And this happens quite often (one shot not that much but 2, yes)

And there are also people here who like to play vs cpu. I know this mod is mainly made for pvp and many posters only view the mod from this optic and disregard compstompers, but the spam of allied tanks vs cpu is quite real, therefore tank hunters are the best way to effectively counter them.

when i was new in BK i did play quite often against expert US bots and sometimes i did some rushes against them on open fields. When i did play on blazing lowland I´ve been absolutely satisfied with 1100/200 Jagdpanther as i never lost any JP to enemie bot 76 sherman spam. With never i mean never and i sometimes played 3 our long games at blazzing against bot sherman spam. Even Pershings supported by many 76 had been no real threat to my single JP (late game double JP) in ambush. And for the offense later i was really happy to have the KT and Panthers. I honestly dont know how it would be now when i would have only these turretless TH´s against those bot sherman masses because those do really flank your tanks and driving staright towards them (like russians in ww2). I havent played blazzing vs bots in a long time but with only TH´s i would not even try it. Maybe its good to counter but for the offensive with turretless Th´s against these bot tank masses is rather bad.

[Kasbah]

Yes I remember the 1100/200 Jagdpanther, it was really good, but I rarely built it because for less than that price I got the Tiger Ace (fuel free) which was therefore more effective, and also because of its turret and similar armor. Now jp is way more resistant than Tiger.