Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them back!!

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sandman332
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Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them back!!

Postby sandman332 » 31 Aug 2015, 15:08

Hello,
So I haven't played blitzkrieg for a while, just noticed when playing terror the KCH are no longer there. The text for them in the terror description and everything is still there, but not them.

Just had a few questions.

Why where they removed? If it's because they were over powered can't they just be nerfed a little bit and added back? Don't see that being to hard to do.

I miss these guys, loved them, even if they aren't as powerful as they were it would be nice to see them back.

Anybody else feel this way? I mean, if something is overpowered, people complain, it gets removed, people get upset, couldn't it just be nerfed instead of being removed entirely?

Thanks.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Warhawks97 » 31 Aug 2015, 15:14

It was the way the worked in game (alwas only hit and run+ nebler VT). Simply hit and run and not many options like doing ambushes, ranged fights etc. But they also could stand insane lots of fire so it was decided that grens being the new core of terror doc using stgs and incenidary grenades.

And also the skin bothered many. A bunch of guys in officer dress in a formation doing always these banzai frontal assaults and being bulletproof. People asked to have a single guy with kch officer dress in terror gren squad with normal values. That would be ok but a squad of genetic super nazi soldiers in officer dress was really too stupid for many here.

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Terence's Mouth
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Terence's Mouth » 31 Aug 2015, 15:14

I realy want them back too just because of the look, i wouldnt make them worst i just would give them 4men instead of 6.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Warhawks97 » 31 Aug 2015, 15:36

And how would their strategic background look like, their tactics? Hit and run, VT and reinforce for a while to repeat it? And then there are 2 sniper and then?

A 3 men officer squad for Terror doc that replaces the normal officer might be an option. But again an officer dressed unit doing banzai attacks? As officer the dress is good, but not as combat unit.

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Terence's Mouth
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Terence's Mouth » 31 Aug 2015, 15:47

Better one useless unit more in the game then one unit less.
SS would be better in the offensive i think, so that couldt be the problem.
3 men officer squad would be realy cool too, because of the morale boost.

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Butterkeks
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Butterkeks » 01 Sep 2015, 09:22

Omg pls no KCH again...

This unit was simply stupid.
I think the cosmetic KCH officer for Pgrens (with Pgrens values) was a funny idea, maybe it's worth a try? Or maybe cosmetic KCH as a replacement unit, so everyone can decide it's own way?

Warhawks97 wrote:It was the way the worked in game (alwas only hit and run+ nebler VT). Simply hit and run and not many options like doing ambushes, ranged fights etc.

Where is the difference to nowadays Terror PGrens? I really don't like this VT for Terror. FIrst the shoot you with nebler. THen Pgrens. Then they see that there is still to much resistance. So fucking cheap VT. Still resistance. Fuck it, have Stuka zu Fuß. Against all odds still one man standing? Firestorm.

THis doc simply has so fucking many Rocket artillery, why is the VT even neeed?

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Warhawks97
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Warhawks97 » 01 Sep 2015, 12:41

Butterkeks wrote:Where is the difference to nowadays Terror PGrens? I really don't like this VT for Terror. FIrst the shoot you with nebler. THen Pgrens. Then they see that there is still to much resistance. So fucking cheap VT. Still resistance. Fuck it, have Stuka zu Fuß. Against all odds still one man standing? Firestorm.

THis doc simply has so fucking many Rocket artillery, why is the VT even neeed?



haha. Yeah, but grens need afterall to be used a bit smarter. But idk why it has so many rocket arty. Illa atm makes great use of Panther spam+ Firestorm on inf retreat points and paks.


But well, maybe Remove VT and replace by Stuka zu fuß unlock. idk.

Tor
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Tor » 01 Sep 2015, 23:30

Warhawks97 wrote:
Butterkeks wrote:Where is the difference to nowadays Terror PGrens? I really don't like this VT for Terror. FIrst the shoot you with nebler. THen Pgrens. Then they see that there is still to much resistance. So fucking cheap VT. Still resistance. Fuck it, have Stuka zu Fuß. Against all odds still one man standing? Firestorm.

THis doc simply has so fucking many Rocket artillery, why is the VT even neeed?



haha. Yeah, but grens need afterall to be used a bit smarter. But idk why it has so many rocket arty. Illa atm makes great use of Panther spam+ Firestorm on inf retreat points and paks.


But well, maybe Remove VT and replace by Stuka zu fuß unlock. idk.

Many arty in terror? remove V1 with firestorm, in 2vs2 useless shit, you happy and i happy.

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Butterkeks
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Butterkeks » 02 Sep 2015, 07:59

Tor wrote:Many arty in terror? remove V1 with firestorm, in 2vs2 useless shit, you happy and i happy.


Well depends.
My problem with the Nebler VT is actually that it's cheap as fuck, and allows two neblers to shoot four times (in sum) in a couple of seconds. What does VT cost? 35 amo or 50 amo iirc. That's simply a joke.

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 02 Sep 2015, 08:35

Calm down with all that removing shit, better think about adding some other things in docs which are underperfoming.
- RE still dont have any recons (add observe mod to recce)
- Poor offensive capabilties of TH ( panther insted nashorn will be great)
- Usa armor still stopped by 1 pakin early game (105mm sherman as pak killer will help a lot)
- Luft sucks in my opinion, everything is too expensive for its perfomance (reg. 5, Wirbelwind, Panther). Maybe im just bad or suck with it, but luft is the most complicated doc for me (after silly TH and RE), im always sitting without res having 3-4 units which are dieing like flies to alied 10-12 units army)

Imo, Raf, Blitz, Terror and Inf doc are just great now, quite versatile, should be example for other docs ( yes, i like when doc is able to deal with everything, that makes it fun to play, when you are facing wall of paks as armor doc, or only snipers and 107mm mortars as luft doc you just reciving instant desire to leave game, because of this "rely on your teammates" - quite sucks for some docs, when you are seating and feeling helpless. I think teamwork should give a big advantage, yes, but gameplay of some docs shouldnt be impossivle without mates help.

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Terence's Mouth
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Terence's Mouth » 02 Sep 2015, 08:58

Yea removin is definatly a wrong way, and removing KCH was a wrong way too.

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Butterkeks
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Butterkeks » 02 Sep 2015, 09:26

Terence's Mouth wrote:Yea removin is definatly a wrong way, and removing KCH was a wrong way too.


No it was not. Everyone simply went for two KCH units, hold effectively the line without problems and then wait for Panther G and KT. They were simply so much overperforming...

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Calm down with all that removing shit, better think about adding some other things in docs which are underperfoming.


I'm not saying that VT has to be removed. I think it's just way to cheap for it's performance.

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:- RE still dont have any recons (add observe mod to recce)
- Poor offensive capabilties of TH ( panther insted nashorn will be great)
- Usa armor still stopped by 1 pakin early game (105mm sherman as pak killer will help a lot)


True.

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:- Luft sucks in my opinion, everything is too expensive for its perfomance (reg. 5, Wirbelwind, Panther). Maybe im just bad or suck with it, but luft is the most complicated doc for me (after silly TH and RE), im always sitting without res having 3-4 units which are dieing like flies to alied 10-12 units army)


Dunno. I still love luft doc and Reg 5 is simply my favorite unit :D
Imo they are performing quite well, the doc is versatile and is perfectly capable of killing tanks and inf.

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Imo, Raf, Blitz, Terror and Inf doc are just great now, quite versatile, should be example for other docs ( yes, i like when doc is able to deal with everything, that makes it fun to play, when you are facing wall of paks as armor doc, or only snipers and 107mm mortars as luft doc you just reciving instant desire to leave game, because of this "rely on your teammates" - quite sucks for some docs, when you are seating and feeling helpless. I think teamwork should give a big advantage, yes, but gameplay of some docs shouldnt be impossivle without mates help.


Well that's your opinion :D
I like specialized docs more, but this is simply everyone's personal opinion ;)

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Terence's Mouth
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Terence's Mouth » 02 Sep 2015, 11:10

Terence's Mouth wrote:
Yea removin is definatly a wrong way, and removing KCH was a wrong way too.



No it was not. Everyone simply went for two KCH units, hold effectively the line without problems and then wait for Panther G and KT. They were simply so much overperforming...


It was, there are many other ways to solve that problem, give only one crossholder or 4men instead of 6 and so on.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Sep 2015, 12:14

I think that the grens now working out better as KCH simply as they cost far less, having incendiary rounds, are not limited and can be equiped for specific situations for close and ranged fight, offense and defense. So the tacitical options got greatly increased for terror and the duration or at least possible ammounts of attacks in a short period of time (what you like to have, more and longer attacks).

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Calm down with all that removing shit, better think about adding some other things in docs which are underperfoming.
- RE still dont have any recons (add observe mod to recce)
- Poor offensive capabilties of TH ( panther insted nashorn will be great)
- Usa armor still stopped by 1 pakin early game (105mm sherman as pak killer will help a lot)
- Luft sucks in my opinion, everything is too expensive for its perfomance (reg. 5, Wirbelwind, Panther). Maybe im just bad or suck with it, but luft is the most complicated doc for me (after silly TH and RE), im always sitting without res having 3-4 units which are dieing like flies to alied 10-12 units army)



-I asked generally for more reccon options. Always these recon fights and all time looking for the recon trying to get it to the new position while fighting units at the same time. Just a few more units should have reconassaince options which can be used during attacks and where it is needed quickly. So just more units with binoculars like recce, m20, Vampire and maybe even bikes and jeeps and stuff... idk. Coz its really stuoid to have just two guys able to use binoculars and which are deployed on carefully but when you quickly change from one battleground to another its quite hard to get quickly some reconassaince as the spotters might be elsewehere.

- I would say at first 70 basic range for Jagdpanther to be TH´s late game main offensive anti tank weapon which takes out armor from a long range and thus covering infantry advances. The Panther G might also be an option instead of Nashorn but i would prefer to firstly make the jagdpanther better in offense being in first place an offensive tool, first secondly a defensive tool.

- Add the 105 sherman to armor doc unlocked together with calli. Jumbo swapping with calli/105 unlock. Move 75 Jumbo to armor doc. Armor strenght against axis 75 mm L/48 being somewhere between churchill MK VI and IV and MK VII. So Armor doc with better offensive strenght being not checkmated so quickly anymore by single pak or 88´s. So finally armor doc would be US main offensive doctrine with great punch forward

- Luft inf wins every fight against normal infantry. Even under CW mg fire my reg 5 (vet 1) did recover from suppression (MG was still shooting) and killing SAS squad. Last night zhivagos Reg 5 suppressed by HMG fire and in flames by RAF incendiary bomber managed to kill a sten commando squad that tried to kill the squad from close range. The reg 5 shreds any infantry from close-long range. The only things i feel that effectively stops the Luft inf are snipers and combo of scotts and HE shermans. From an ambush position my a reg is able to shred easily two ranger squads (with vets up to ranger squads what i did already).

What i would do for luft inf is to add binoculars on vampire. That would save cost for krads and the vampire would be kind of ultimate reconassaince tool showing all inf on map and also having normal reconassaince ability. The Luftaffe would then be a great in terms of "spying". But cost are not really such a huge problem to be honest atm.

Tor
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Tor » 02 Sep 2015, 12:24

Terence's Mouth wrote:Yea removin is definatly a wrong way, and removing KCH was a wrong way too.

Think same, i dont like clone wars.

Anonter
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Anonter » 02 Sep 2015, 12:57

Literally the most stupid unit I've seen, do not bring them back haha

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 02 Sep 2015, 14:12

Warhawks97 wrote:
- Luft inf wins every fight against normal infantry. Even under CW mg fire my reg 5 (vet 1) did recover from suppression (MG was still shooting) and killing SAS squad. Last night zhivagos Reg 5 suppressed by HMG fire and in flames by RAF incendiary bomber managed to kill a sten commando squad that tried to kill the squad from close range. The reg 5 shreds any infantry from close-long range. The only things i feel that effectively stops the Luft inf are snipers and combo of scotts and HE shermans. From an ambush position my a reg is able to shred easily two ranger squads (with vets up to ranger squads what i did already).

What i would do for luft inf is to add binoculars on vampire. That would save cost for krads and the vampire would be kind of ultimate reconassaince tool showing all inf on map and also having normal reconassaince ability. The Luftaffe would then be a great in terms of "spying". But cost are not really such a huge problem to be honest atm.


From my experience, I usually smashing every luft player, doesnt matter with which units: raf, airborne, rifles and rangers, vehicles or whatever. They simply getting outnumbered x2 or even x3 times.

Further more, we checked with Terence, if rifles with bar are staying behind green cover and reg 5 will try to attack they ll die.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Sep 2015, 14:46

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
From my experience, I usually smashing every luft player, doesnt matter with which units: raf, airborne, rifles and rangers, vehicles or whatever. They simply getting outnumbered x2 or even x3 times.

Further more, we checked with Terence, if rifles with bar are staying behind green cover and reg 5 will try to attack they ll die.



Well, put Grens, or even Volksgrens behind cover with lmg and when rangers, commandos or whatever is attempting to attack volks have good chance to shred them (i did shred SAS and expensive ranger squads with volks, green cover, lmg34 (and sometimes officer).

Sometimes when rangers going to attack without cover then i kill the half squad with pios. Many times i quite easily beat commandos from shadow and others using heavvy PE assault gren squad.

I mean generally i try to avoid rushes towards and enemie inf unit with superior cover, open field and lmgs. And thats correct. High cost= gurantee to win just shouldnt be. And such as luft inf (sometimes dies) from standard inf behind cover and lmgs while luft inf closing in then so it happens to expensive allied elites. I mean in a 3 vs 3 at goodwood a Pgren squad with G43 and heavvy assault squad with K98 and lmg42 and stgs did shred 3 ranger squads, captain and several rifle squads taking just 2 losses in total.

When i play inf atm i do combine mortar HT, sniper, Luft inf squad and hetzer. I am not just doing frontal assault expecting to win everything just becuase i pay more. I am looking for ambushes, cover my inf with Hetzer. I am skirmishing my enemie down rather than doing one massive attack with luft. I like luft to harrass, ambush and so on. I selodmly field more than two luft squads at once depending on situation. When i cant be active in offense i try to make ambushes with reg5 which then easily can whipe out several enemie squads in a blink of an eye (sas, commandos, rangers). The reg 5 is good for offense but i rely more on "jumping from cover to cover" and to be honest, put them in a yellow cover crater and they are almost immortal (i can make a screenshot from a game where nothing could harm them even they got fired by like 20 units or more). I try to avoid very close range and use the FG42 long-mid range performence at which it is just dominating. Another good combo is ranged fight using Gebirgs (yellow cover is enough so far), Mortar HT and sniper. A hetzer secures my fall back position when aa tanks or shermans trying to close in (hetzer has 70 range in ambush).
In assault on emplacments i just love the reg 5 and assault ability which makes them raining down grenades and schreck shots (after each triple nade throw) on the emplacment.

Another (if not most important unit) is the kettenkrad. I have many of them (if one gets destroyed, another is ready) and use them during assaults with my inf to find snipers. Vampire can also be helpfull as kind of map hack and even stealing ressources.

For stronger offense i like to combine like 1-2 inf squads, krad, Bomb run and Panther tank.


But yeah, all relatively cheap squads with cover and correct equipment can and should be able to stop even elites that run over an uncovered field stupidly rushing into my rifles. But as i said, cost should not be a gurantee to win. But when you look what luft inf can do, which deadly weapon it uses then they are quite capable killing any enemie infantry during offense and defense. Provided with correct support (which 90% of luft player do not do) from the PE its a pretty deadly force.

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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby kwok » 04 Sep 2015, 00:08

OK.... I have something to ask that has been on my mind for a long time. How do you guys "test" something? Do you just put units up once and see who wins then decide that is the outcome? Or do you fucking do it 100 times? From what I understand, the combat in this game is almost entirely RNG based with weighted outcomes. So "testing" something just once, or even just 5 times really doesn't say anything about how proficient something is at doing something. Besides, why test when you can literally just look up and calculate percentages from corsix... Unless I am misunderstanding about "testing", I do not see how testing proves anything about the proficiency of units/actions/abilities/etc.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Warhawks97 » 04 Sep 2015, 13:57

kwok wrote:OK.... I have something to ask that has been on my mind for a long time. How do you guys "test" something? Do you just put units up once and see who wins then decide that is the outcome? Or do you fucking do it 100 times? From what I understand, the combat in this game is almost entirely RNG based with weighted outcomes. So "testing" something just once, or even just 5 times really doesn't say anything about how proficient something is at doing something. Besides, why test when you can literally just look up and calculate percentages from corsix... Unless I am misunderstanding about "testing", I do not see how testing proves anything about the proficiency of units/actions/abilities/etc.


+1

I try to figure out a units efficency by trying to use it in many different situations that occure in normal pvp. I also checking lots of replays to see how a unit worked out an how much it contributed to win a game (or not).

In my tests when i was new in BK a jacks did always beat Tiger in 1 vs 1 but that doesnt mean a tiger must become as cheap as one simply because tigers behaving in other combat situations better as the jackson.

In old forum a player really came up complaining that jacks is too cheap or tiger too expensive just because a jacks did beat his tiger. But he completely ignored the fact that tiger is in many other combat situations much better and a better allrounder.


So yeah, testing units 1 vs 1 isnt the best way to see how good or bad a unit is. Both need to be tested in various combat situations and abilties need to be taken into consideration as well.

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Terence's Mouth
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Terence's Mouth » 04 Sep 2015, 16:53

Bring KCH back with lil nerf and give reg 5 more HP, my opinion.

JimQwilleran
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby JimQwilleran » 04 Sep 2015, 20:46

Terence's Mouth wrote:Bring KCH back with lil nerf and give reg 5 more HP, my opinion.


Implement Texas Mounted Rangers and give normal ranger more HP,

my opinion.

SteamID_razelazz
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby SteamID_razelazz » 06 Sep 2015, 02:47

JimQwilleran wrote:
Terence's Mouth wrote:Bring KCH back with lil nerf and give reg 5 more HP, my opinion.


Implement Texas Mounted Rangers and give normal ranger more HP,

my opinion.


BKmod could use Chuck Norris, make him the model for squad leader

my opinion

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Warhawks97
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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Sep 2015, 14:10

A mate of me created chuck norris in his private BK mod already. Just for fun. When axis have KCH, allis can have chuck norris. Both could be justified in the same way.

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Re: Knights cross holders not terror anymore? Bring them bac

Postby SteamID_razelazz » 06 Sep 2015, 17:35

Warhawks97 wrote:A mate of me created chuck norris in his private BK mod already. Just for fun. When axis have KCH, allis can have chuck norris. Both could be justified in the same way.


BKmod isn't balanced for roundhouse kicks though


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