Why Allies and German tanks are made equal???!!!

[Warhawks97]

Oh my god.
@Warhawks, u come to tell me how good the Blitz doc is?! o.O Dude, I am an expert Blitz doc player and so I well know that it's much more to be only about Tigers x.x But this is the point.. that's what I don't like!!! Early Pz IVH spam is no fun.
I know that Blitz doc is one of the best docs in the game u don't have to tell me that!

U already said all that to me on Steam, well.. why did u mention nothing about the reloading time of Panthers???!!! It takes too long when compared with many other tanks x.x I would surely prefer Tigers as they reload faster and still have better abilities.

A super tank should never be dead with one shot, do u think I am happy to know that u killed a Pershing Ace that way?! x.x

Stugs are good vs inf???!!! Stug die with 2 poor M9 Bazooka rockets LOL while this is no way realistic. Stugs should better stand vs M9 Bazooka rockets and bounce some btw. While in Bk mod it never does. Idk why!

U don't also yet get my point, I need more quality German tanks vs more quantity Allies tanks!! I guess u already wrote topics about that several times. I know that some of Allies tanks historically should cost nothing at all and not only just lower cost!! I agree that, let's make it! Really, I no joke... Short barrel 75mm Sherman should cost 10 fuel But also Panther should cost 95 fuel. The Panther G noway deserves 160 fuel!!! I am a lot tired to discuss or type more, sorry...

Bazooka will fail. Of two bazookas one gonna fail and one kills not even a Puma... I dont have much problems to beat most of the stuff with by stug III at the time i get that Stug.


You say you are pro with BK doc and you dont use tank IV´s etc just because its no fun? So you want to make Tigers and Panthers better/cheaper just to have more fun? oO. I am confused to be honest.


tanks like 10 fuel? We already have the prob that many tanks are too cheap, esspecially when compared to vehicles. Also Tanks should have better coaxial and not rushable by silly inf blobb and that would make all a way more expensive. I mean wtf... a stug cost less than several inf squads, same as shermans. Afterall they are tanks and should be able to stand against inf. Shermans for 10 fuel..... why dont remove vehicles at all? oO.

Also do you know what a shitload of work it would be? adjusting some tank cost would have huge impact on inf and vehicles and just everything. ALL units would need to be adjusted.... Also 10 shermans or 14 for each player would first hurt the performence as wolf said, the maps would be overcrowded and you would need maps large as MOW maps and bigger.... + micro. In reality each tank had own commander. In Bk you need to controle 10 tanks. So while one need to controle just one tank the other would have to controle 14 and that would also be a balance issue.

I think we have a fair deal and sometimes even unfair deals (e.g 76 sherman compared to Tank IV in cost and performence). But regarding to Panthers its already quite fair as two 76 shermans cost the same so far (even more MP and much more upkeep) but still unable to kill Panther on max range unless booth use HVAP which makes 200 ammo for the guy with shermans which is 1/3 of total possible ammo storage!


Also from historical point of view what do we have? I have some money cost for some tanks.
Sherman M4: 99.000-111.000 Reichsmark (equal to 45.000-50.000 Dollar)
Sherman M4A2 (76): 106.000-113.000 Reichsmark (equal to 48.000-51.000 Dollar)
Panzer IV G: 116.000 Reichsmark
Panther A: 129.000 Reichsmark

So you want the money prices as indicator? Then Panther G would cost as much as 76 sherman but that would require much higher MP income for US in BK. Also you cant compare the economy of those nations. The Axis simply took the ressources and those of occupied nations (esspecially at the end of war) and also used masses of "slaves" in their factories later and all that reduced the money cost significantly. US still payed more or less normal (The War basically end the econemy crisis in the USA and created new jobs). MP in game is not simply comparable to money cost but also work and material intensity. And there axis did need usually more resources for their high quality tanks even when they introduced some simplifications on their 44 Tanks to reduce that. They had a larger offcuts of for each of part on their tanks and a Panther weigt up to 10 tons more than a sherman. Russians had almost no offcuts as they poured more or less their entire Tanks:D So with the ammount of materials of one Tank IV russians got two T-34. I mean the steel prduction of Germany was much better than those of USSR but they still got outnumbered right at the beginning of the War.

[BffWithDEATH]

Sorry havent read through all this yet... But who the fuck invited panzer-lehr-division into SyN????

[BffWithDEATH]

Who is Panzer-Lehr-Division and when did we get an player who is that stupid to think Jeep is OP in our clan?

[BffWithDEATH]

The ISU-152 is a big tank that can no move exactly like the KT. Plus It was rare, really rare I mean.. I am not saying IS-2 is bad. I am saying Panthers should be available earlier by reducing their cost to beat the Jumbo since history supports me on this points too... Maultiers suck as it needs much ammo for nothing! I would rather to use Officer arty than this shit. U have always to keep in mind that Blitz doc is a small branch of the big German army which is separated to 2 different factions.. While the armor doc is a part of a much smaller army with fewer types! Why should the armor doc have any fuel trade while they have cheap units already??!!! Pershing should be cheaper I agree! But also later to be available.

US tanks pay more for upkeep than axis tanks and the price to build them are almost the same for Allies and Axis.
Furthermore, the axis tanks out perform allies tanks in every aspect.
Summary allies pay more resources than axis for tanks that perform under half the effectiveness of their axis counterparts.

E.G.
Sherman 76mm upkeep -4 fuel Panzer 4 J upkeep -2
Sherman 76mm 460manpower 60fuel(iirc) Panzer 4 J 450manpower 70fuel(iirc)


Also Tiger, wasnt it just 2days ago that you were bitching about allies OP then vs'd Warhawks, myself and Ntoine as Axis in 3v3 with your friends and we were Luft, SE and BK and won within 5minutes you literally could not do anything to counter us no-matter what you tried.

I laughed a bit more than I should of when reading Tiger self proclaiming himself an expert Blitzkrieg doc player who doesn't know how to blitz...

[Krieger Blitzer]

Warhawks. stop claiming what I never said plz, I said U made Blitz doc only about mass production and then IVH spam! And I never said I need Tigers cheaper but only I meant Panthers... Tigers should be more expensive even!! They are good. But if they become more expensive then there must be no SP. Anyways, both Panthers and Tigers now useless, just spam early IVH and win. If u ever fail to finish it early then u r simply dead. Because late game is surely for Allies with their holy arty and big super tanks... Still not logic to see a Panther costs more than a Tiger while it can be beaten by a Jumbo. Chill... I asked for Panthers to be cheaper not for fun but for both balance and historical reasons since Churchill will be stronger like in real.

I am surprised u say I never use IVH, I usually used to have that tactic and always win with it but I find it no fun anymore. I would recently rather use a single Tiger or 2 while having by them a lot of kills count such as 17 tanks kills record or something Even if I lose at the end. No matter! It's more fun

@BffWithDeath;
About which 3vs3 game u talking about?? The one ended in 5 minutes cause my units were no moving?? LOL
Ok, what about the game we made few days ago.. I have the replay btw, it was 2v2 on Duclair when both my Tigers escaped ur Typhoons more than 7 times when u were both RAF and we were both Blitz???!!! Tiger Ace got 9 tank kills and the other normal one got 5! U lost also at the end. I think u still remember that one very well I just want to know how to upload replays here on this forums. I can't find any 'attach file' buttons sadly.
Well u may reply this saying "Then, what's wrong??!! U just proved Axis are OP" No, still Allies are much better on many other sides which I don't have enough time to mention or talk about now any longer.

[BffWithDEATH]

Yet people say the Typhoons are OP.... I have the replay also, it just proved my point again that axis have the better air support just they dont HAVE to use it because they are so much more flexible.
I actually often use Luft because the Panthers are cheaper than Comets.... Such a joke really...

In that replay we used very few british tanks because you had a tiger before we could build a firefly or achilles.... Another rediculous joke
( we were actually rushing for tanks btw )

We began building significant numbers of AT weapons which ( which are the tigers majority of kills )
The single Tiger ace charged 2x17pounder and 2x6pounder piats and 6rifle sections head on got buttoned twice but killed all of the units without taking any damage without any real micro needed then dodged 2xTyphoons and won the match.

YET HE WANT'S ALL ALLIED HEAVY TANKS REMOVED AND AXIS HEAVIES CHEAPER...... what a joke.....

[Krieger Blitzer]

Typhoons surely are OP. I only was too good on micro managing my Tigers and so I escaped all ur Typhoons several times Comets can beat Panthers, they are faster.. has a good gun and also double shot ability like Panthers. I know they are no good vs inf but still they are useful... While the cost difference is not that big btw!

Ur second point I don't actually understand it! What u mean? I can't get it... But well mm yes, u were rushing for tanks! U had 3 or 2 Fireflys and about 7 Achilles at the end with 2 17Ps and probably 6 Typhoons in total and some PIAT units too ^^ I lost no a single Tiger after all

Okay, Tigers were OP to be possibly beaten that game... But still.. it was ur fault as u both went RAF!!! U had to get a Priest or an Armor doc player.
Anyways... I don't want Allies heavy tanks to be removed (Although they had no heavies even ) The topic is mainly about Panther cost btw.

[BffWithDEATH]

Actually the primary reason for taking RAF is to have something useful for countering axis heavy tanks because British tanks bounce off tigers 70% of the time.
17pounders bounce 60% of the time 6pounder bounce 90% of the time piats miss 80% of the time and pen 60% of the time.
57mm bounces 90% of the time 76mm bounces 70% of the time zooks bounce 95% of the time.
US tanks almost always get 1shot by Tigers unless it is a Jumbo or Pershing. ( and because they pen tigers he wants them removed c: )
which actually makes no sense the tigers armour has been exaggerated to have a value of about 230mm...

Typhoons are expensive and incredibly vulnerable to AA... Makes sense and are balanced but compare them to the Fockewulf.

Typhoon 200ammo small AOE requires extensive insight to actually make them hit in PVP ( Predicting where the player will move their tank and aiming there )
They also only kill the heavy 80% of the time. Which is fair.

Fockewulf 250ammo wide AOE kills all tanks AND infantry within that AOE, difficult to dodge and slightly less vulnerable to AA.
...
...
Dare I mention the Henschel?...

The Fockewulf isnt used that much because Axis don't NEED it because Panthers, F2's, Light vehicles and elite Para infantry provide infinate flexibility.

How many times will you find axis players stressing when they see Allied tanks?

You will just say Tiger 17kills ( I nailed it )

Now tell me how many times will allied players stress out when they see axis tanks?

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Bff, about air strikes i totally not agree with you. Raf planes are most deadly support in game.

Fockewulf is bullshit
1) It have veeeeeeeeeery slow speed, something like 3 times slower than typhoon rocket run, you are complaining that tanks are escaping from rockets.....good luck in trying to hit a tank with fockewulf lol.
2) Nope again, typhoon much harder to get, even if you have 2-3 ostwinds it still have good chances. When focker quite often getting hited by base Bofors.
3) I dont know why, but after last patches it became bullshit, something wrong with damage ( like with thunderbolt bombs ). Last 2 times when i used it i couldnt kill single m4 sherman and single priest, although some time ago this bombs really could knock out persh easily.
4) Raf claster bombs are cheaper and 5 times more effective against infantry than luft one.

Henchel also is a crap for 275 ammo, or.... am i unlucky again? Tanks are just start moving and all planes are missing and missing. Moreover, this abilities are mainly must be used for killing big targets, but can henchel kill persh ace? - no. Can typhoon kill axis best tanks? - absolutely yes!

I had this discusion with warhawks in one of the previous topics, all you need, just compare in every 3vs3 or 4vs4 game how many axis are loosing cause of airstrikes and how many alies.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Because late game is surely for Allies with their holy arty and big super tanks...

Alies super tanks: Persh ace OR Super persh (only 1).....jumbo??? Im not couting churchill ace cause nobody plays RE in big games.
Axis super tanks: Panther, Panther G, Panther D (its bullshit actually, but still enough for killing shermans), Tiger late version, Tiger, King Tiger, Jagdtiger, Elefant, Jagdpanther, Tiger Ace, PZ4 H from th doc with all upgrades (zimmerit, veteran lvl, elite tank commander).

[Wake]

After a test game, the best thing I can say is that there is extreme inconsistency regarding many tanks and each other. Especially tiger1996's main argument, the 76 Jumbo vs the Tiger Ace.

It's true, the Tiger Ace does have trouble penetrating the 76 Jumbo while the 76 Jumbo penetrates the tiger ace most of the time, and almost all of the time with HVAP, at all ranges. The inconsistency is in that the Tiger Ace is great vs all other tanks, it can go head-to-head and inflict major damage on pershing aces and super pershings, yet sometimes struggles to defeat a jumbo.

Similarly, while the jumbo is bouncing the 88mm shots from a tiger ace, tanks like panthers have absolutely no problem penetrating the jumbo with their seemingly worse 75mm gun. This inconsistency between specific tanks should be fixed, for whatever values it should be.

On to Tiger1996's other points about axis tanks in general, I and many others firmly disagree that axis and allied tanks are equal. They are not. Allied tanks are worse for many reasons, the biggest in the game being worse armor and very high fuel upkeep. Tiger1996 is right in that the allies don't have heavy tanks. The Pershing got classified as a medium tank right after WW2 ended, and rightfully so. It didn't have that much more armor than a sherman, and the only thing that really made it better was the 90mm gun, which was still somewhat lacking. This is reflected in-game, yet the Pershings still have costs of heavy tanks without the performance.

For simplicity's sake, let's compare 2 units that both cost 2000 MP. The PE Tank Hunter Jagdtiger and the US Armor Super Pershing. Both of them pretty much have the same role, to kill the enemy's tanks, and specifically, kill the enemy's heavy tanks by having more armor and a bigger gun than the enemy. Both of the tanks have comparable guns, with both being able to destroy almost all of the enemy's tanks in 1 shot. However, no allied weapon can penetrate a Jagdtiger to the front without incredible luck (I've never seen it happen but it might be possible). Yet the Super Pershing gets eaten alive by panzershrecks and can get penetrated by PaK 40's. To top it all off, there is only 1 super pershing available, meanwhile an axis player can call in 100 tiger ace's and 100 jagdtigers.

[BffWithDEATH]

Similarly, while the jumbo is bouncing the 88mm shots from a tiger ace, tanks like panthers have absolutely no problem penetrating the jumbo with their worse 75mm gun. This inconsistency between specific tanks should be fixed, for whatever values it should be.

7.5 cm KwK 42 ( Panther Gun )
Penetration: Panzergranate 39/42 (Pzgr. 39/42)
100m - 138mm
500m - 124mm
1000m - 111mm
1500m - 99mm
2000m - 89mm

8.8 cm KwK 36 ( Tiger 1 Gun )
Penetration: Panzergranate 39 (PzGr. 39) with APCBC round
100m - 120mm
500m - 110mm
1000m - 99mm
1500m - 91mm
2000m - 83mm


Summary, the Panther's gun is superior to the Tiger's.
Size of the caliber doesn't necessarily mean better penetration, it can cause excessive bullet drop if the velocity of the gun cannot project the weight of the shell appropriately.

[V13dweller]

Though, Larger projectiles cause more damage to the armour itself, like cracking, spalling and possibly, shattering/breaking of the armour.

[BffWithDEATH]

Though, Larger projectiles cause more damage to the armour itself, like cracking, spalling and possibly, shattering/breaking of the armour.

This effect only start's to have effect with consecutive shots to the same piece of plate,
bouncing shots but denting plate or cracking plate,
a gun fireing with enough velocity to penetrate 20mm more armour without tungsten-core ( Panzergenate 40 )
is more likely to crack or dent the plate by default even in the event of bouncing,
caliber isn't excessively important in terms of damaging the interior of the tank after penetration.
What matters is the ammunition design and interior tank design.

When a shell penetrates it dissipates into shrapnel and the shrapnel bounces around the tank hitting crew members or critical components,
including ammunition racks that will explode inside the tank if the shell has an high explosive effect e.g. APHE it will explode inside the tank in which event the shock-wave bounces around inside the tank along with shrapnel.

[V13dweller]

Just so you know, I knew all of this before, so you don't need to tell me.

I could consider myself an AFV expert, as I understand vehicles/weapons/armour inside and out.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Wake said;
" It's true, the Tiger Ace does have trouble penetrating the 76 Jumbo while the 76 Jumbo penetrates it most of the time, and almost all of the time with HVAP, at all ranges. The inconsistency is in that the Tiger Ace is great vs all other tanks, it can go head-to-head and inflict major damage on pershing aces and super pershings, yet sometimes struggles to defeat a jumbo "

BRAVO! Finally someone got one of my points!! Pershing takes 2 Tiger shots while Jumbo sometimes takes 5 or 6 Tiger shots??? Heck... x.x I fear the Jumbo more than the Pershing

I agree what Vodka said as a reply to what Bff claimed about air planes.

@Bff; No, 17 wasn't my highest record actually I tell u about it with details now; The highest to reach was 21 including one SP during a 4vs4 pvp game with a single Tiger Ace on the map GoodWood xD While my highest with a normal Tiger was 17 also including one SP during a 3vs3 pvp game on the map Road to Cherbourg!! Also u have to keep in mind that both games enemies all dropped only at the final end, there were no a single CPU kill ^^ While I usually do 2vs2 games rather than rarely 3vs3 or 4vs4 games.. my Tiger kill ratio average becomes about between 9 or 14 most of times, I reached both those numbers many times specifically using the Ace one

@Wake;
On the other hand, although that I rarely play as Armor doc, I mean I used the SP really few times.. however u will have to believe it or don't, but once.. I got 24 tank kills during a 3vs3 pvp game on the map Red Ball Express with a single SP tank!! Also no one dropped except at the final end. Since that time.. I NEVER USED THE SP AGAIN!! That's why I don't actually have any SP kill ratio averages... As that I felt how completely unfair it is! I smashed all KTs, Tigers, Panthers, JPs and even JTs!!! The SP crushed everything! How come WAKE complain about that the SP is only available for a single time???? It never saw action even. It should be totally removed my dear Wake!!! U just need luck and a good micro managing method to reach such high kills using the SP, easier than to reach it even with a Vet 4 Tiger I swear. Although that I strongly believe that a Vet 4 Tiger would be the best tank to ever use...

@Vodka; So the Axis heavies were absolutely nothing compared with my SP during that game. @Bff; The Axis tanks suffered a lot! And finally all came to nothing.


U guys have to keep in mind that although that the 75mm of the Panther is slightly better than the 88mm gun of the Tiger in penetration and still not on damage.. the Tiger still reloads faster. And it also has the accurate long shot ability which is awesome and continuously used by me...

[Wake]

I think the biggest issue between some of these units mentioned is the inconsistency.

After my tests, if I'm a US armor player using a 76 Jumbo, I'm legitimaetly going to fear an AT squad's panzerschrecks more than I am going to fear a tiger ace, because the panzershrecks are a bigger threat, they penetrate my jumbo more often.

Similarly, on the other hand, if I was a Wehrmacht Blitz player using a tiger ace, I would fear the jumbo more than I fear a pershing, because honestly I've never seen a tiger ace shot bounce off a normal pershing while my own jumbos can absorb many hits and survive.

Hell, if I was in control of a jumbo, a PaK 40 would be more dangerous to me than a tiger ace. Notice that all of this does not factor in the special abilities that the tiger ace gets. It can use that "long range shot" which I'm not sure if it is just a standard shot with more range or something special with more penetration and damage. Does the Tiger ace also get the ability to shoot AP rounds? That might penetrate a Jumbo, I'm not sure. But the question is, should a tiger ace have to use AP rounds to reliably deal with a Jumbo?

[QWERTYAndreas]

Tiger: You are biased. There is nothing more to say.

It is a game, not reality. If you wanted a realistic game, your tiger would own the Allied tanks - that is rigth. Too bad, it never ever meet a single tank because of engine breakdown and planes.

And yeah - the SP is pretty strong. And so it should be. But it is not any stronger than a KT, or a JT. Actually, as some already pointed out, it is pretty weak vs. handheld AT weapons (PE AT grenades, schreks, PzFaust). Meanwhile you need a camoed 17pdr with AP rounds at close range to pen a JT/KT reliabe. Or a pershing or SP at close range with AP.

IF someone find a serious balance issue, upload replays showing the issue. Often more replays is needed, since BK is rather random.

[Warhawks97]

About airplanes allies might have more but axis better cost- efficency ratio. The Fw 190 is unique as it has frag effect similiar to cluster bomb, killing tanks also very well and also kills emplacments and builidngs to 100%. So its effective against buildings like P-47 and even more as aor as larger thus hitting more. Its not slower than typhoon. The rockets simply strike before the airplane passes while bombs hit after airplane passes.

Axis AA is pretty good and not only in base. I fought sometimes against double RAF or RAF/AB and i had just two ostwind and only one airplane crossed the map. My booth Oswtind together had up to 30 Airplane kills and even more as one had already 21 (you can see that in their stats as killed tanks). Ive never had such an allied anti air gun (my best with US were two airplanes with M15a1)

Also axis unlock airstrikes much later as many go always for the inf and SD2 bombs and sometimes even 88 if they play more defensively. RAF usually unlock airstrikes first as it is the only that can clean up the mess of dozens paks and MG´s build in early game by axis.


Henschel used alone is crap and without few. Me and my mates combined it and with hep of that and started our assault and with inferior number of tanks but therefore schrecks and HS 129 we killed entire enemie tank armies incluidng Persh aces. Most funny is it when enemie just prepares for the Tank fight and going into stationary mode with fireflys and and Jacks and suddenly the HS 129 swarms are coming. Also Has 129 attacks the entire map and a Hs 129 attacks Everything in its path (even Hidden paks and Tankbuster) which staying arround at the other side of the map and far away from Henschel Target area. Also Hs 129 hits moving targets in its area, fires many shots and its not that easy to escape out of the fireline unlike it is for rocket run or US bombers. There those do throw the bomb simply where the target had been instead readjusting at the point the target is at the time of the bomb drop.

@Tiger: Allied had no Heavy Tanks? Well axis did not use the Ju-87 at western front in 44 and the 24 Hs 129 B-3 with 75 mm canon which got build/upgraded/converted in mid agaust 44 had been lost all within one month before they have seen any real combat missions




About Tanks: You simply have to consider in teamfights that all 6 axis docs can get Heavy Tanks and Tankbuster which can contribute to raging tank fights or having 88 long range AT. Except, those SE have only Nashorn which nevetheless kills jumbos in a single hit. Furthermore, when jumbo occurs, all have powerfull infantry with schreck and AT squads which can kill those. GL with british piats on a field or silly two bazookas against KT, JT, Brumbär. Panther, Tiger etc.! The Third bazooka cost 65-45 extra ammo for inf doc and even then its not better than double schreck. Losing the squad regularly in front assaults and you wont have enough ammo later to get always a third bazooka.


@Wake: In the very very seldom games ive got an Tiger ace ive never had any problem to penetrate anything. You claim it bounce from Jumbo?:D jumbo must have vet 4 then. I can confirm that Tiger bounces sometimes but not when having vet 2.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Alright Vodka! Just because I promised.. there is our 1vs1 ^^ Now those players who weren't on the old forums can also check and see it... However that still towards u shall be my respects as I admit u yet r one of the best players